Here's a question I wish to direct at anyone who can answer it...
If you purposely, deeply and wrongfully hurt a person, who do you think would be more deserving of your apology?
This person?
Or god? (if you're a believer)

It is my own opinion that no matter what, the person you wronged would be more deserving of an apology. But of course, opinions differ. That's why I ask.

EDIT: Almost forgot to add... It will be good if you state your reasoning for your choice, and discuss reasoning as well. Y'know, so my first topic doesn't die too soon. Thanks.

If I hurt someone who i care about i would apologize to them...if i believed in a god i would only apoligize to them if i wronged them.

Oh and heres a bonus quote: "Forgivness is a gift you give to yourself"

I would care more about the person I've wronged. The Bible itself says to confess what you've done to others, and stresses forgiving one another before anything with God. And, I would feel a great deal better knowing I have that person's forgiveness. I would think that matters more to God.

I think that is very good reasoning, TLS.
My own reasoning is that people have feelings, and hurting those feelings often only invites others to hurt your feelings the same way. The world is a happier place with no grudges.

I would seek the forgiveness of the person I had wronged or hurt. What good would asking forgiveness of a deity be, if I did not make amends to the person first? Its like a 'get out of jail free' card: Hey, I can hurt others, as long as I seek forgiveness from (insert favorite deity here)". Not to say that there are people who do just that (there are), but if you wrong someone, intentionally or deliberately, then you must seek their forgiveness before gods.







What if it was someone you didn't care about?
Lets say a schoolmate or co-worker is the subject of rumours, and you repeat and embellish those rumours, causing the person distress, and expulsion or termination from their employment?

Would you apologize?

What if the rumours turned out to be just that: unfounded rumours?

Both, because you do what got said not to, and you hurt someone else.

If you seek the forgiveness of the person and they forgive you, then God will forgive you as well. I believe that all are connected, and thus if one forgives, then all forgive.

The person is the one you have wronged so they are the one who needs the apology, but not with idea of receiving forgiveness(you might not get it), because it is the right thing to do. Since we all have a divine self when you apology to the person it is the same as apologizing to a God.

Good point, Darkwind. Whether you're actually forgiven or not, it is the true effort that counts in my opinion. Truly being sorry, having sympathy for the person, wishing you had never caused them their distress, and communicating this to them.

I think we should be apologetic especially if we don't care for the person. Heck, even the Bible says that. Something along the lines of "hey, ANYONE can do this with someone they love, but it takes something special to do it with your 'enemy.'" Say what you will about the Bible itself, but let no one (especially Christians) say that we're not supposed to seek amends with those we don't get along with.

Religious aspect aside, I think that if we're dealing with a rotten person, it shows us to be at least making the effort. I got into it with someone I was really good friends with, and he quit talking to me over it (it was something very petty, I remember). Even though he was coldly indifferent and occasionally confrontational with me, I still made the extra effort to say I was sorry, and try to be nice to him, and all that. Needless to say, it didn't work, but I felt better about myself and my ability to show kindness even to those I dislike.

I read the keyword to your question as; Purposfully, hurt someone.

If I hurt someone on purpose, which I have done and in relation to self defense, it would be inconsistent to then apologize for the act that was provoked by another. Indeed, it is they that should apologize for causing me to have to resort to such measures to stop their offense.

With respect to the matter of a deific implication after the fact, i.e. apologizing to my god/dess; if a persons overt act or the conditions of a circumstance necessitated my purposefully hurting someone, my faith dictates I exercise any means necessary to survive the condition. And so there would be no need to apologize to god/goddess, for acting in a manner wherein I was provoked to self-defense.

I understand. I kinda thought the "wrongfully" would indicate that the "purposely" was for selfish reasons which didn't include self-defense. I need to work on my use of words. -_- Thank you for your reply, 'tis a good one, despite the small misunderstanding (on who's part I'm not sure and would rather not find out.)

I take 'em as I read 'em.
With respect to your intention, despite the "use of words", I did not reply because I do not purposefully/overtly, act to harm anyone. Hence, there is no need to apologize to anyone including my sense of a higher power.

That is good. I'm sure there are some who have no problem with it so long as they can recieve a "Get Out of Damnation For Free" ticket from their higher being, though.

No doubt! As the global socio-religious example would attest. People murdering themselves and others, because they 'believe' it is gods will and they shall be rewarded after they detonate themselves. Persons that exercise domestic terrorism bearing the mantel of "pro-life", while looking through the cross hairs of a rifle scope, so as to execute those that perform abortions. (And yet the majority of PL zealots have never exercised a pro-quality-of-life agenda by adopting lives born homeless and ensconced into institutions like orphanages or that are shunted around the system of foster care).

I read the ancient and contemporary histories in the making, of those that exhibit a zeal for "god", while committing acts that are anti-life, and see people that worship death, because they are led to believe that is worth the effort of destroying life and the people living it, and it saddens me that they , in the course of that commitment, do not see that they are their own devils and infidels, by definition. What a legacy to leave behind. Evil, in the name of god. Their face, their actions, are the embodiment of their worst fear; the devil that reigns inside.

If a god exists then they will know whether you are truely repentent or not - there would be no need to ask forgiveness.

Agreed. It also is unnerving to see people wishing "The End" upon all existence just because of a belief that they have a "better" place waiting for them...

I think I know why that is. Because they are filled with contempt for everyone that does not abide by their beliefs. And so it takes on that psychotic twist one reads about in the psych. profiles of rage killers. I.E. If I cant have you no one else can. Only in regard to the religious aspect, it's translated as; If they don't believe in __________< insert zealots deity dujour there, they deserve to die!
It's a two way release. The zealot sees the world ending as a reprieve from having to continue the arduous task of converting the whole world. And they take comfort in holding faith they shall then enter the heaven they believe awaits their soul, while their enemies are dead and in the hell the zealot believes is exactly what they deserve for not accepting the zealots point of view .

What about if you have wronged a group of people do you then apologise to the group as a whole or to the individuals in that group.

Thats how I feel but what happens if you accidentally kill the person while resorting to self defense. Like do you apologise then or do you deserve an apology still and from who?

Anyway I guess no-ones forgivness matters to me.. its more about people forgiving themselves which happens when you forgive others because you are equals.

Drop a link or something because I would love to suss out some zealots or what you guys think of as zealots, you know..

If I spoke damaging remarks behind someone's back (gossip) then regardless of whether they turned out true or not, I would apologize sincerely for it. Nothing but trouble can lead from this.

to answer the original post, there is no point in asking forgiveness from God if you're not willing to also ask forgiveness to those you have wronged. Whether you are friends or not is irrelevant (as has been said, it's easy to apologize to your loved ones, but what about your enemies?).

Apologize to whomever you have wronged. And by wronging other people, I have also wronged God - Love your neighbour as yourself.... and that's not even including the specific warnings for many other ways to wrong others (slander/gossip, for example).

Regards, PA

I really like your post, PA. It's good that so many people see the importance of being sorry to those they have wronged and not just to their God. I may have chosen a mostly one-sided topic then... I don't mind if it's closed when/if there's no more room for discussion, thanks people for discussing it.

Kazahel: Here are two threads where it is indicated that some believers are rather excited about the end...
http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum...showtopic=74865
http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum...showtopic=74781
Those are all I based my assumption on, but they're kinda old topics.

The person who i might have wronged forgivness would matter to me but also i then would have to be able to forgive myself because your own guilty consicious can be a wrathful thing when it wants to be.

What a breath of fresh air to read these answers. Asking forgiveness of the person you have wronged is not only right, it also means that you have taken the time to evaluate the situation and are strong enough to admit you were wrong. The sincere act of asking forgiveness to me paves the way for the honor of asking forgiveness from someone greater. I wonder how many conflicts in this worlds daily life could have been and can be avoided with an apology.

I don't believe in God, so can't participate.

TO SAINT: then what was the point of your post, other to state your personal belief, that is?



PA, as usual, you have struck the nail squarely on the head. I see too many who pray to their god for forgiveness of their trespasses, without regard for those they have wronged.

Or worse yet, go out and do it again!


And before I get swamped with a ton of ""but-as-christians-we-know-we-are-sinful-wicked-creatures" posts, I am not referring to ALL, but to those who commit a 'sin' pray forgivesness, then 'sin' again, and pray again. lather, rinse, repeat. To THOSE people, I see them using their religion and their belief that humans are 'flawed' as an excuse to be an ass. They believe their god will forgive them, but they learneth not the lesson.

If you wrong someone, regret it, apologize, then seek divine forgiveness, then you should know better than to do it again.

Hell, in law, there is the 'three strike' rule. Don't people think that their god will get tired of forgiving the same thing for the same people?

Another brilliant post JM.....For me remorse means not hurting another again......and doing what you can to make things right....

How do you decide when you have done wrong, i know just from posting on this forum how easy it is to say something that seems to be quite fair and then later find out it was offensive to someone.

Also what if someone thinks you have wronged them but you believe yourself to be in the right. It matters not only who to apologise to but also when.

Also i have found that some people are very easy to apologize but i believe they do no more then apologize, you see i think not only should you apologize for wronging someone, you should also attempt to make it right.

Or so i think

To indicate that this thread doesn't really cater to those who don't believe...

I dont believe in god but i was still able to participate

Well AR, sometimes we DON'T know when we have done wrong, or hurt someone. On the net, it is very easy for something said to be taken the wrong way by another party, and they feel they have been injured.

Sometimes, the way we say something will have "everybody" up in arms. In cases like those, you take another look at what you have said, and try to see from the other persons perspective.

I myself have had this happen to me: say one thing, and someone is hurt, offended, and angry. I look back saying 'wtf?', and then the "A-Ha!" moment arrives and you see how you were misinterpreted. Then you make amends, explain what you were trying to say and move on.


If someone thinks you've wronged them, but you think not, then 3rd party arbitration is called for. Bring in someone who has no interest either way, and present the case. Let them decide, but only if both aggrieved parties can abide by the 'judges' decision.

And I fully agree with your last statement.

I also agree. I always thought part of being truly sorry was trying to make things right.
Good posts, JMPD1 and Atlantis.

Saint: I don't believe in god either, but I made this thread.