I have found it very disturbing that the CRC, and the RCA churches support the theory of predestination . I think that it paints a bad picture of God. It makes him seem like a heartless monster that shows now compassion or love.

Do you think that predestination is possible?

u mean like a life already set up for us right? well i think we choose our own life choice but god acts upon them by forcing others to intervene.

so that basically says... god knows if your going to hell before your born.... whats the point of that? what is the point of someone going through life thinking they can change things if there fate is already predetermined? if god was like that and i got up to heaven and he said sorry son but your fate is sealed in hel. il whip his ass....or at least try to... probably miss though since my fate was predetermined and he KNEW i was gunna swing at him when i died because he made it like that...... i thini predestination would suck if it were true

Predestination is the belief that God chooses who goes to heaven and who goes to hell before creation.

then wat would be the point to have sins or hail marys.i belive we control this life of ours and we get to make it right and earn our way into heaven.

If I believed in predestination, my goddess would be a tyrant and I that give her life with my faith, a fool lacking in self-respect. Therefore, I do not believe in predestination, because it is an insult to us both.

Since the concept of free will was invented (there was a time when humanity had no concept of free wil) many Christians have taken up the free will chant as a reason for our existence on Earth. It makes sense, but unfortunately unbiblical. In the Bible, God chooses people. People don't choose God.

I believe we choose God.

I believe that God has chosen everyone. Now we have to choose to go.

That's like if I chose you to win a trip to paradise for eternity and all you had to do was love my son and accept me as your God, it would still be up to you whether or not you made that choice. If God chooses us then evangelism is completely a waste of time. If God chooses us then why avoid sin? Why live a life of goodness if not matter what we do we won't get into heaven?

Well then, that right there takes care of "Faith" all together!


But by that logic, those that are not chosen by god owe no allegiance unto god. And those not chosen by god are then not subject to the judgement, of god.
Which would then impugn god as the creator of all people, (and things) if he but chooses certain of them that he alone created, for his attentions. Which, given the bible accounts of how god behaves toward those he chooses to bless and those he chooses to be victimized by those he blessed, is not a bad thing! However it would imply that god is an elitist and a bigot, which again impugns the nature of god as anything worthy of worship as a higher power, given it would be possessed of the same deficit in personality, as those that believe need to be saved from such sinful predispositions in themselves.

interesting topic...I must say that I live in an orthodox christian community..actually, it is the predominant religion in my country..I don't share the same views and it's a bit hard to be a non-believer here...

I am, nevertheless, familiar to most concepts and beliefs orthodox christians have and I never heard this thing...that no matter what you do, you are already destined to go to heaven or hell...people here believe that if you try as much as you can to respect god's word, sincerely repent for your sins and lead a pious(is that even a word? ) life, you will be allowed into his heavenly kingdom..seems fair to me


but I know of another belief somewhat similar, but not as drastic..the one where if god wants you to do something, or if he wants something to happen to you, his will shall become true, no matter what you do, the outcome will be the same..

and this puppet-like life is rather discouraging, true? well, not if you believe you are part of a greater plan..and you unconditionally trust god.I guess that is the only way to justify the belief in predestination

An interesting point.

"God chooses people, people don't choose god"

So much for unconditional love, eh? What does that entail for all those who "found god"? And I didn't even know he went missing.

Well, there was that time he entered the skeeball tourney....

But I digress. I am familiar with the concept of predestination, being raised RC, but the evidence for it in the bible is inferred, rather than implicit, no? Same as "free will"?

Predestination could be possible, however it would mean that God sends people to hell just because he feels like it. So much for a loving God then.

I don't believe in Hell (or Heaven for that matter), so it really doesn't apply to me.

Here is a thread from awhile back on the subject of predestination.
http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum...c=67175&hl=

Sorry my friend.
I posted these just the other day.

Acts 13:48
And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Rom.8
29. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Rom.9
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Eph.1
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

2 Th.2
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

As far as predestination, I believe in it. But I do not believe in a god, or gods, I believe in some sort of stronger outer force(s). I simply call it fate, that no matter what you do you end up exactly where you were meant to be, whether you believe you were meant to be there or not.

I remember having this discussion with my fiance once. I think we left it at an akward silence because I hate the idea of predestination or that my life is fated to go a certain way. For example, he frequently says that things happen for a reason. I can understand that. To a point.

It's where he insists that the most miserable things in my life happened for the exact purpose of ending up where I am today. I prefer the idea that whether or not I'm fated to end up a certain way, things don't have to happen exactly as they did in order to end up where I am now. I don't want my life to be written that I had to spend three miserable years with a psychopath who used me and emotionally abused me (friend, not lover) for me to meet the right person that got me interested in the right hobby that led to meeting my fiance. And I don't like the idea that I HAD to move in with the roommates that stole all of my posessions and left me financially ruined in order for me to end up in the place where I met the aforementioned psycho.

I can think of much happier ways for me to get where I am, in an emotional state that wasn't quite so...fragile and without my credit and finances being so completely wrecked that I'm still suffering the consequences of another's actions.

So I tend to bristle at the thought of fate and predestination. I don't like the thought that I have no control over what I do. I start second guessing myself and wondering if I change my mind, if that's really me changing my mind, or that's just fate deciding for me. Granted, my parents aren't something I could decide, and few people have a say in their upbringing, but to me, fate feels like I never left my mother's house and I'm stuck with someone else making the decisions, whether or not I agree with them.

And if I do agree with a decision I make, is that me that really agrees with it, or is it fate agreeing for me?

predestination is not the belief that your life is set. it is the belief that no matter what you do or believe, God decides what happens when you die. This creates a negative image of God and it goes against many if not all biblical concepts.

Personally, I'd hope that God would be nice enough to let us live and die how we choose, rather than choosing for us. It seems unnecessarily cruel to grant someone sentience and then map out their life, knowing that a person might want to be a good person, only to fail because they were destined to fail.

Actually, it reminds me of that time I worked my ass off on a sculpture project that exceeded the requirements and was A material. Then I found out the professor had intended to give me a D (failing grade for that class) all along because he didn't like the subject material I picked at the start. It was crushing and in the end, I stopped even bothering to put in effort because I never knew if any of my efforts would have an end result that was decided before the product was shown. Basically, I gave up.

But I don't know. God seems to go back and forth on this. Sometimes he seems needlessly cruel and other times it seems like being cruel would be out of character.

Exactly.

ok, god simply knows everything that has happened, is happening, and all that will happen. even if we dont. this is all a relative point of view. from where we stand we can only see so far, but from a different vantage point someone may be able to see farther. god can see what we are going to do before we do it, so in essence, to gods point of view we are predestined. but still from our point of view we have free will. and we do, its just that god knows what will happenn and knows how we will choose our paths even if we dont.

thats not a hard concept to understand if you accept the fact that god is beyond our understanding from a human point of view, if you would instead insist that you understand the mind of god and make him out be of human intelligence then you would be arguing faulty logic. since if you understood the mind of god, then there would be nothing stopping you from being god yourself.

you just have to understand the point of view difference. it doesnt mean that understand the mind of god. just the pov.

In this context then.....free will does not exist.

That means I can't go back in time and stop myself from watching Silent Warnings.

If you can, then pass over the mojo and I'll re-do buying the ticket to "Get Shorty!"

Ooh, pass me some for same reason... *shudder*

Here's an interesting article about Determinism. I'll quote a piece:

"If God is truly omnipotent and truly good, how can He permit evil to exist, particularly forms of evil which are completely catastrophic and irreversible, such as the eternal damnation of a human soul?

"There are several fairly obvious possible logical escapes from this dilemma. One can conclude, as believers in many primitive religions do, that God is evil or neutral. One can conclude, as many modern liberal believers in progress do, that God is not omnipotent
at every point in history. Or one can argue that evil is really an illusion, and that everything which seems evil serves some ultimate good purpose. These logical escapes do not satisfy most theologians..."

Well, to use an argument already beaten to death, if there wasn't evil, then how would we know what's good?

Oh great, did I just say that watching Silent Warnings was necessary to be able to better appreciate good movies?

A long time ago, in a university far far away.. I had a class that included the works of John Calvin...

From the mysts of memory, I dredge up the thought that predestination was rationalized as an justification for continued division of class. That the noble were destined to be nobel and servants destined to be servants. That a stableboy could not dream of being more than he already was. No ideas above one's station, lad. Now go muck out that stall...

Ah Calvinist TULIP! (Not the lovely flower!) *Re: Predestination.


T: Total Depravity (Inability) refers to the fact that human sin has affected every aspect of the human character - thought, emotions, will, etc. Calvinism teaches that an unsaved person is completely unable to find salvation on his or her own. Salvation is only possible if God wills it and causes it through the work of the Holy Spirit.


*U: Unconditional Election is the doctrine which teaches that God chooses some to be saved and some to be damned. These choices are not, however, based upon any acts performed by those people or any merit which they have achieved (otherwise, there would be a violation of the principle of Total Depravity). According to Calvinism, election and damnation are based solely upon God's will and nothing else. In fact, election and damnation were decided before the world was even created, which results in complete predestination for all humans. Somehow, though, humans are still responsible to believe in Christianity - not that this appears to do any good. Denying either is heresy, thus it is necessary to believe both, despite the fact that they contradict each other.


L: Limited Atonement is a concept which teaches that Christ died for the sins of some (those predestined to heaven), but not for others (those predestined to hell). Thus, Christ did not die for the sins of the entire world, because otherwise the entire world would go to heaven. Instead, Calvinists believe that Christ died to atone for the specific sins of specific sinners, and only God knows who they are.

I: Irresistible Grace refers to the fact that when God has bestowed his grace upon a person because they have been predestined for heaven, it is impossible for a person to "resist" this grace and not end up in heaven. No matter what they do and no matter what they think, they are saved. In Calvinism, this is the corollary of the principle of Total Depravity, which teaches that it doesn't matter what a person does or thinks, it is impossible for them to avoid hell unless that happens to be what God wills. Calvinists take comfort in the idea that God's love will overcome their sins, but only because they assume that they are among the elect.


P: Perseverance of the Saints is the doctrine which argues that the saints (i.e., those whom God has saved) will always remain under God's protection until they are brought to heaven. In other words: Once a Saint, Always a Saint. The difference between this and Irresistible Grace is more a matter of emphasis than content. (link)

Huh..

I can see this working out really well in a courtroom..

"So you see, your honor.. it wasn't pre-meditated murder. It was predestined. I was destined to kill my neighbour because his dog poops on my geraniums. God willed it to be so.. There really was nothing I could do to stop myself. Every choice is really our destiny in action..."

i personally really hate the idea of Predestination.

I don't believe in Fate, or Luck or anything like that, ibelieve that I and i alone am responsible for my life, and that i always have a choice.

For god to take away our choice is to make us nothing but Automatons and i don't like that idea

Nothing new it's been used since Biblical times.....

Yeah, however back then it worked! One was lionized for it. Made prophet and king and the like. Now, one is ridiculed in the press, doomed in the courtroom and executed because their insanity defense ceased to convince a peer group!

What's riot is that before all that transpires, the witnesses (and the accused if they so choose) swear on a book accepted for the claim it was "written by god!" Thousands of years later, claim god speaks to you and you're summarily dismissed as insane. Or if you write a book, like "A Course In Miracles" or "Conversations With God", you make millions of notes embossed with "In God We Trust" on the back, while detractors that can't put you away for being out of your tree (because you have enough $ to fight back), denounce the conversation with deity as fraud!
And most probably those same critics are religious!

It's as if the entire Western consciousness has declared in one voice. God doesn't speak to us anymore! And if you say he does, you're nuts!

So what? Somewhere between then and now and possessed of alleged sacred scripture, we lost our minds?!


The way I see it, if a human thought it up, it's wacked already. Recognize! And then, deal with it.