[attachmentid=27724]I moved safes for ten years. I've applied that knowledge to the pyramids. I'm looking for folks to double check me. Just joined, not sure of the rules. I'll come back to check this thread and converse.

The first link is to the home page, second the forum, third the start of the simplest description. This is a political web site that this has been posted for sometime.

My name there is teacher. Don't mind the attitude, think Don Rickles or Dennis Leary.

This thing is solved folks. Sorry.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/

http://www.debatepolitics.com/science-tech...ld-pyramid.html

http://www.debatepolitics.com/368597-post228.html

Impressive. That looks like not only a plausible explanation, but a likely one as well. The only possible issue I see is that the Egyptians didn't have a lot of wood around, which is why most roller theories are looked at in some degree of suspicion. On the other hand, Egypt was also an economic power so I don't see why they couldn't import wood from Lebanon or Cyprus.

Thank you. You're the first to say "likely".


I get the wood thing now and again. I have the where and what thing covered. Not as fun as my standard reply, "If there were no trees in Africa then, then explain all the monkeys."

I'm getting a lot of resistance to folks even reading this theory. And when some do I get the most idiotic replies. How a simple workable idea can so often be summarily dissmissed is beyond me. And the idiotic reasons some give for rebuke are unreal.

I'm having trouble getting this read, and ideas anyone?

Marc,
I have a suggestion.

When you posted this theory of yours at Edit I tried to agree with most of what you were saying. As I recall, there were only a few points of difference, and those were fairly minor, between your theory and the theories of several Egyptologists.

As I said at the time, I welcome any poster that theorizes that the Egyptians built the Egyptian monuments in Egypt themselves, as this is what I too believe.

Yet, your responses to me, and to many others whose ideas differ from yours only in some small degrees, were at best egotistical broadsides, which included copious amounts of whining at not being instantly recognized as genius.

So, my suggestion would be - get over youself. Don't be so over the top. Part of convincing people is to achieve some sort of respect from the people that you wish to persuade. Don't go so over-the-top and you'll probably have better luck.

Anyway, you asked for ideas.

Harte

Edited: Name of forum.

[attachmentid=27735][attachmentid=27731]Hi Harte, did you like my method of finding directions, plumb, level, square and disance I played off of your strings and sticks post?




Which I shall summarily dismiss.


Yes.


Those people need abuse.


tHE STEPS ARE MY BASE, THA'S NOT NEW? rOAD BUILTT FROM PYRAMID BLOCKS, THAT'S NOT NEW? i DON'T THINK ORIGINAL IDEAS ARE SMALL.



That's annoying ain't it?


But you see I started different here. Been doing all different styles, seeing how people respond to this differently with different attitudes but the same theory. Been inteesting.




I get many text's that people love that, that it's funny and adds interest. Different strokes Harte.


I could care less if they respect or like me. I only want a solid rebuke or not.



I choose to do his the hard way. It ammuses me. How often does one get to play with something like this? who even considers this? This is new.



Yea. If I want life advise I'll show up drunk at my Mom's place.


My first few poss there where delelted. Have you read where I say you are the guy I need to talk o? And don't mind me I hit my head? If not then that was one deleted. I was trying to tell you from what I saw you were sensible and solid. What does attitude matter in a topic like this? And look at all the liars I know not to worry about except for abuse? And what is byrd's deal? I had some PM's with mods and it was sad. How do people lie when there's only two people and you both know the deal? And look how much attention that thread got. &000 views in 24 hours and on top of both home page lists. And people are gonna tell me how to do things? I've new drawings at

http://www.debatepolitics.com/science-tech...html#post370968

start at post #228.

And because I like you if you join there I''l tell YOU FIRST how the big blocks were done.

Building pyramids is about moving blocks quickly, safely, and as cheaply as possible. 2.3 million blocks. You have to be good at moving blocks. If no one can answer the question in the attachment, and that's 101 stuff, if they can't accept how easy it is, what can I do? How can they question me if they can't do the most important task? Step one. All these canes, machines, dragging, sleds, are junk. But they will never UNDERSTAND that, they've never pushed hat weight, scooted a ton with a 3' crowbar.

Abuse.

It's me bro, and it's gonna be his way.


What if I got a member at that place to post my drawings with permission. Cause I can.

Bro, not one real rebuke and I cast considerable doubt on ALL the other theories. Mostly stuff from moving safes. I'm making people act like children.

I'm having and will have even more fun with this. If some don't find me funny they can ignore me. Many others do. One guy PM'ed me saying his bud told him to check me out for the humor. A reader of my theory that wouldn't be if I were all Nancy boy. The views at my place keep growing, from guests. Dropped this on a few other places today. Gonna have another spurt. And angry shellfish is the first "likely" poster. Another forum owner I started out harrd on came back with wrath at first, telling me I was wrong, he took it back and said I had a theory that works. That's all I want. And gum.


Join, I'll give away to you what everyone else gets last.

Just because I'm so nice.

In my world, if some chatter makes people lie and weasle, I've won. You should hear me if they say it to my face.

Join, find The Basement, I'll give you a big welcome and abuse you thoruoghy.

If you want to see the rest of this, you have to go there for a while.

If someone could show me how to burn water, I'd put up wih some disrespect to learn it. but then I'm no Nancy boy...

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Let'sseewhat happens...

Yeah Marc, we both know that it don't take Aliens to find true North. I appreciate the fact that you are putting the idea out there that the Egyptians built the pyramids. It seems ridiculous that anyone would have to continually espouse such an obvious idea, but the fact is there are just so many people that believe otherwise, that have been lied to, or whatever, that it continues to be necessary, and probably always will be.


Your idea of using wood rollers is probably older than you are. I have to add that investigations into this have shown that there's just no wood that could stand up to this for more than a few feet without splitting down the middle. This part of your theory is just an extremely inefficient method for splitting rails, in other words.

Of course, that doesn't apply to the smaller stones that makeup the Great Pyramid. I myself am satisfied with sliding the larger stones on some surface, be that wooden tracks set into the sand, or a road made of pyramid blocks. And I'm not talking about any sled, I'm talking about the bare blocks.


Well, the way I see it, your theory is as good as any other, pretty much anyway. So you won't get any rebuke from me (did you mean "refute"?) I won't refute it either. See, I wasn't there so I have to say I just don't know how they did it. I think there are several possible ways that it could have been done.


Attitude doesn't matter to me since, like you pointed out, we are somewhat in agreement. This means that I can assume that your "attitude" is not directed at me personally! The attitude problem comes in when you have to convince someone, especially these people that are ready to swear up and down that "the Atlanteans did it!" Hard enough to turn them around, it only makes it harder if you are making fun of them at the same time.


I'm not in any way involved with the administration or moderation of any board on the internet. I'm really not interested in any conflicts you may or may not be having with this or that moderator or administrator. Nor do I care how many "views" this or that thread has gotten, though I guess it's possible that website administrators might be. But I will say that Byrd is a gifted Anthropologist. Not an "armchair" Anthropologist, a real one. She is aware of most of the archaeological findings having to do with Giza, and their implications. An example of how this applies to your theory is the fairly recent finds of the remains of ramps built next to the Great Pyramid, ramps which do not appear in your theory (unless I missed it.) Additionally, the remains of artificial canals (or moats) have been found leading from the Nile to the pyramid complex, another aspect of the methodology of transporting stone that I do not recall from your theory (again, maybe I'm wrong.)

For my part, I lend a lot of credence to the archaeologists that surmise the methodology of pyramid construction based on their own (or other's) archaeological findings. But I'm the first to say that nobody has nailed the method down yet, and that's the only thing anyone can say for certain, until (possibly) the tomb of Imhotep is found, anyway.

What that means, in short, is that I consider your guess to be as good as anybody elses, almost. When they find relics similar to the rockers you postulate were used to lift the stones, then your theory will rise to the uppermost consideration.



Marc, I'm already a member of too many boards, I'm not going to join another one right now. But I will stipulate that, if you have been moving large, bulky and extremely heavy objects for years, as you say you have been, then you are certainly in a better position than me to theorize on how large, bulky and extremely heavy objects are moved. The only such object I have moved recently resides within the rear section of my blue jeans. And I must say that I move that object as seldom as is possible!

Harte

we know how the ancient egyptians cut moved and placed the smaller blocks what we dont know is how they shifted the larger blocks. For blocks weighing in excess of 15 tons you cannot use wooden rollers and that is a proven fact and the egyptians didnt appear to have any problem cutting and shifting blocks weighing in excess of 30 tons. Tell me how the builders of Baalbek in lebanon cut shifted and placed blocks of stone weighing 1,000 tons plus and I will sit up and pay attention to what you say.

depends on how many rollers you have....duhhhh, and how large the diameter is. baalbek lebanon is not far from where the cedars grew. all they would have had to do is dig out the bottom of the stone from one end and then insert a roller. then keep digging front to back and inserting rollers underneith as they went until the whole bottom is dug and rollers now support the whole thing. then off you go. then build a road with a slight grade if you want to make it easier.going up hill would require balancing it on a central pivot and rolling the stone http://www.theforgottentechnology.com/CurrentProject.htm
they had lots of sand and sand is easy to excavate.

the stoned to be look shorter and more stubby, and a 30 ton stone would beeee hmmm, difficult to pull up hill.
I know they had knowledge of the serpent energy, "kundalini" when done correctly, your body turns red, and its literally possibly to physically absorbe more energy into the body. "physically" and permanetly, as part of the bodys energy capacity. kundalini is represented by snakes and dragons. i have seen pictures of egyptions with snakes on their heads, etc etc, i have even seen pictures of hyrogliphs, with egyptions holding little devic looking things, with serpents in them. So, i know this is a very strong energy, and wouldnt doubt it none. you roll ah 30 ton stubby block up hill on some wood. OH and just so you know, those peices of wood your rollin on, havta be perfectly f***** straight, theve gatta be prime, cause if one dosnt roll, they all dont roll. but, its all just ah perspective.

So it's crazy to think they physically moved the blocks, but it's perfectly sane to think that they used a mystical snakepower to do it?

Can you say "Snake oil"?

Where, may I ask, did kundalini acquire the symbolism of snakes and dragons? Your reasoning is beyond faulty. Because kundalini is now represented by snakes and dragons, you say that since the Egyptians used images of snakes, that indicated knowledge of kundalini?

The Egyptians, if they knew kundalini at all, could have chosen any symbol to represent kundalini. Maybe, every time they made a carvng of a human figure, it represented kundalini! Wow! That must be proof it existed and was used by them!

Snakes are snakes, and nothing more than snakes. There are snakes in Egypt. They were a daily factor in the lives of Egyptians, so they were assimilated into Egyptian recorded culture, much as our current style of fashion are assimilated into our recorded culture.

cats , they used lots of cats....

Marc. Your theory is well thought out but based on the old theories, simply expanded. This is indeed what researchers do.

However, I agree with Harte when he says that your egotistical approach to telling people your theories are putting people off reading.

I had a hard time taking you seriously when you responded to Hartes posts.

I realise you said you didn't care about getting respect from this escapade but I can't help feeling like you need to lose the attitude all the same.

The works good. The attitude is offensive.


And to be frank with you, some of your replies to Harte were very immature. Not at all what I would expect from a man who deems himself worthy of the title of 'The Genius of Egyptian Architecture'.

that doesnt sound too hard to do, especially for human beings. the great apes might have hada hard time making rollers straight.

did you even see the sight i provided? the guy just rolls 2000 pound block with his own two hands. those wooden "rockers" effectively make the square block round, so all they would have needed to do is wind ropes around the block and then pull the ropes like unwinding a spool of thread, even have some guys push from the back if needed. or they could have used counterweights to pull the blocks up. counterweights filled with sand.

Have you actually bothered to do ANY research? wooden rollers cannot roll beneath weights beyond a particular limit usually 15 tons. They cease to roll and are crushed.
Do some reading before you come in here.

Perhaps you could try being a little more constructive and a little less aggressive!!

He did not deserve that at all. Why don't you consider the feelings of others before you come in here.

This is an old theory, one which I was taught in 3rd grade. Unimpressive and mildly plaugeristic.

Speaking from the world of academia, presenting this theory as your own (even with the very very mild variations) would either get you laughed out of the room or brought before the academic review board.

So, no, I'm not impressed. Nor have you said anything thus far on this board which is worthy of anything but scorn. Good Job!

--Marty

Marchimedes and Harte.

This is an interesting thread...however.

Please keep your problems, issues and arguments from another forum away from this board.

If you have something constuctive to say on the topic in question fine. If not better to say nothing at all.

No insults, flaming or any other type of abuse are tolerated on UM. The rules of this forum are here: http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/rules.php

Thanks.

Not to mention the ground underneath the rollers. Unless they laid down some hard asphalt or concrete between the quarry and building site, I doubt even hard-packed mud could have stood up to the large amount of pressure that was exerted on a small area (the rollers themselves). A radio controlled car will not flounder in thick mud, but a human-sized car will flounder in the mud. That's just basics, because I'm sure someone will point out powerful trucks and tanks can go through the mud with no problem and they're much heavier. However, they both have something a sedan doesn't: more powerful engine and tires/tracks built specifically for getting through mud.

Before I even think this scenario is likely (I also learned about it in grade school), I would want to see evidence of what the ground was like that these rollers were going over and whether or not the rollers would be able to roll on the ground. And if they had a bigger engine to push it all through

Provided the rollers could stand up to the weight of the blocks anyway. I say someone needs to test this. I volunteer the OP.

Sweet.

Banned for being funny.

I have covered or will be covering all that in the place I link to in the first post.

Much to come, you're with me so far, you'll enjoy this, I'll just keep building and clairfiing this.

That the Jupiter stones? No problem, later. Gotta pyramid to build first.

Yea Wally, I've been talking to him. Might use some of his ideas.



I could have, and done so large, but I didn't. Proud of me?

Very well, since I started this train wreck...

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Could you provide us with an explanation to go along with these diagrams ?

What about the guy who recently claimed that the blocks were poured like concrete, he said he found fibres and human hair in samples of the pyramid blocks ???

The raising by leverage does work quite fine. It has been demonstrated in modern day. One problem- it took experimenters about an hour to raise a meter square block a meter high. The problem that all the folks with seemingly logical answers have is the fact that the prescribed time of 23 years to complete the structure.

10,000 well treated, non-slave workers labored for 23 years to put 2,300,000 stones together to construct the Great Pyramid. Supposedly every 2.5 minutes a stone was moved to its final position. That's how it would have to work out if they labored 12 hours a day, 100,000 stones per year; 273 per day is about 23 per hour. Even working 24 hours a day, 5.0 minutes per stone would be required to meet the timetable. The earlier idea that it was a seasonal project makes it more incredible. Of course this is considering the "average" 2.5 ton stones and not the megalithic ones. The nine slabs used above the King’s Chamber were 44-tons each.

Even if it was possible to slip a block into place every 2.5 minutes it doesn't account for chiseling each one out of the quarry, dressing it and moving it to the assembly site. The additional144,000 Tura limestone casing stones were finished to 1/100th an inch fit.

No matter what method was used the required 2.5 minutes remains the same for a 23 year project. Double it to 46 years and you're still looking at a stone going to its final position every 5.0 minutes. No one has ever calculated in the time involved to manufacture the building materials either. So how fast can you chisel?

But you are assuming that only one stone is being placed at a time. What is to prevent multiple teams from placing multiple stones in different locations?

Only a finite number can occupy a workable area and function efficiently. ALL the stones could not be placed en masse even if some on the lower quadrants were.

So how long does it take 6 guys to hack one stone of of the quarry strata and finish it to a dressed appearance? And yes the same law applies. Only so many teams can work in proximity to one another and function logistically.

And no the concrete idea is bogus aas well since the time constraints are at work. The limestone material would 1st have to be pulverized to dust before mixing it into a concrete-like slurry and that would have to then completely dry before use. So how long does it take part of the 10,000 man workforce to accomplish that times 2 million+?

I don't even pretend to have new answers, simply more questions.

Chris Dunn asked the manager of an Indiana limestone quarry what it would take to fill the order for the blocks used in the construction of the Pyramid of Khufu in the allotted 23 years.

He estimated that if all 33 quarries currently operating in Indiana tripled their output, the last block could be delivered at the end of 23 years.

I think there is a profound and widespread failure to appreciate the magnitude of the pyramid builders' accomplishment. "Ho-hum, they moved a lot of big rocks" seems to be the attitude. But if you get up out of a chair and try to plan something like this in a practical way, you see just what a freakishly colossal task it is.

You are posting extremes. No one is saying that ALL the stones were placed en masse. I am simply saying that the equation presented is based on a single stone being placed at a time. The Pyramid is an enormous construct, and many teams could quite easily be working at the same time.



But this assumes that all the stones were finished to a dressed appearance. They were not. Only the stones who faced an open area were dressed. The vast majority of the stones within the pyramid are rough-hewed, and the cracks in-between are filled with rubble. This takes dramatically less time.

yes the accepted time period for the construction of the piramids is nonsense and it is proven nonsense.....however,if we accept that the piramids took far longer to build than we originally were led to believe then it could provide an answer to why there is a lack of inscriptions and credits within the monuments. If the piramids were built thru the lives of successive kings then it may have been agreed that none would take the credit for their construction. The ancient egyptians were an odd people with very liberal attitudes and it is not beyond their reasoning to consider this.

One other thing - we are asked to believe that the great piramids were the result of generations of practical building experience. This is not true. If you consider Djoser's piramid in its original form you will see a construction every bit as advanced as the great piramids the only difference of course being in that Djoser's piramid was built from earthen bricks rather than stone.
Which brings us back to that very vexing question....

It seems I haven't figured out the quote function yet I use bold and italics therefore.

Twitch98 -10,000 well treated, non-slave workers labored for 23 years to put 2,300,000 stones together to construct the Great Pyramid. Supposedly every 2.5 minutes a stone was moved to its final position. That's how it would have to work out if they labored 12 hours a day, 100,000 stones per year; 273 per day is about 23 per hour.

As another has suggested to you, yours surmises that only one stone at a time was moved by those 10,000 workers. I am not Marchimedes, but given his calculations, I would say that he likely has done his math and understands that the base itself occupied over 570,000 square foot of space, from which the Egyptians had four sides from which to haul their stones up onto this base. Given that they would not likely be utilizing the entire surface, but rather the perimeter, I estimate they would at a maximum utilize say 35% of the total base area for hauling this brick? Marchimedes I am sure will check my math.

Now What you have cited is the usual diatribe which tends to lean to man’s impossibility of performance such that aliens built the pyramids in that with 10,000 people (a number without substance but even so) was required to haul a block at an average of 5,000lbs up a ramp. I would call these men wimps! One man provides a half a pound of hauling power in that scenario.

Utilizing basic math, which even the Egyptians knew as is evidenced from their annals. If we presume that it took 10,000 Egyptians 23 years to move 2,300,000 blocks into place then we conclude that one block at a time was moved into place by all 10,000 or at least 4 or 5 while the others stood idle, every 2.628 minutes of the 12 hour day. Would this seem either likely or reasonable to any architect and construction project manager?

NO! let us therefore reject this delusional and absolutely idiotic conceptualization of man’s incompetence.

Fantazun - One other thing - we are asked to believe that the great piramids were the result of generations of practical building experience. This is not true. If you consider Djoser's piramid in its original form you will see a construction every bit as advanced as the great piramids the only difference of course being in that Djoser's piramid was built from earthen bricks rather than stone.
Which brings us back to that very vexing question...

On the contrary, there is no vexing question and what you will find are three pyramids attributed to Djoser, all of which attesting to the architectural prowess of the Egyptians due to trial and error and none of which were stable where specifically, even the bent pyramid built decades later, is a pyramid which by design was collapsing as a result of gross architectural miscalculation. What this signifies is man’s innate ability to reason by trial and error.


Who is this Byrd? Is it a bird in a cage or something/one which ventures outside?


**edited to clarify the progressive building techniques up to the construction of the bent pyramid **

23? Thank you. I won't check because I'm no prig.


Do the textless dawings make sense? I've done this in text only also and wan't to see what I need to do for dawings only.




One of us only comes around every 4500 years, don't sweat it.


Nope. All by gut. But for some trig to guess what level the Kings chamber is so to add in a posible mehod using the supposed recent ramp foundations.

See post # 23.



Why build extra roads and longer routes? I say more speed was gotten by adding ajacent lanes.

QUOTE

Given that they would not likely be utilizing the entire surface, but rather the perimeter,

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Straigh lines always. Speed. Start taking detours and time adds on. Gotta 2 minute per block schedule to keep.

QUOTE

I estimate they would at a maximum utilize say 35% of the total base area for hauling this brick?

Please to explain.

Post #23.

QUOTE

Marchimedes I am sure will check my math.

I trust you. Some other naysayer will I'm sure, then you say "my bad" and change something so it works.

QUOTE

Now What you have cited is the usual diatribe which tends to lean to man’s impossibility of performance such that aliens built the pyramids in that with 10,000 people (a number without substance but even so) was required to haul a block at an average of 5,000lbs up a ramp. I would call these men wimps! One man provides a half a pound of hauling power in that scenario.

No ramps, ever.

QUOTE

Utilizing basic math, which even the Egyptians knew as is evidenced from their annals. If we presume that it took 10,000 Egyptians 23 years to move 2,300,000 blocks into place then we conclude that one block at a time was moved into place by all 10,000 or at least 4 or 5 while the others stood idle, every 2.628 minutes of the 12 hour day. Would this seem either likely or reasonable to any architect and construction project manager?

This guy is thinking blue collar. Swee.

QUOTE

NO! let us therefore reject this delusional and absolutely idiotic conceptualization of man’s incompetence.

I say it's not cost effective.

QUOTE

Thought i started with tombs tha grew up over time, progression, skills learnt and passed on, trial and errror bla bla bla. 150 years is last I read.



The resident genius at another forum that got his world rocked and resorted to lying and putting words in my mouh. Me? Drag a block?

Ask the questions on what's unclear from drawings and I'll try to add drawings only to clear up.

For a coloring book.

I will say that all the blocks, casing stones and all, were set one level at a time. Ain't heard hat one before have you?

Anyone read Lehner's and Smith's new book? I bet he stole my idea I told him about over a year ago. It's time/date stamped. Any who do will eventually recant.

Such is the power of The Warden's smack.

Notice I'm doing this fo free?

When I'm done I will tear apart EVERY other theory.

Starting wih stupid ramps.




400 views since yesterdays drawings post.

One site I'm banned from did 7000 views in 24 hours. Not one credible refutation. Except for there's no tree's in Africa and there's some drawing somewhere.

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If you ever catch me using the word "proven" or "was done" or "is the way"as applied to this that we yet have no evidence to prove anything, shoot me.

If I can show a method that works in 23 yeas will you have been "proved" wrong?

Careful, I haven't got started yet.

Marchimedes, the majority of the drawings speak for themselves.

Regarding the perimeter and the 35%. One of your drawings appears to suggest that the blocks were hauled up one side then moved over to the other, keeping in mind that the base occupiees 13 acres it stands to reason that not all of this would have been used as a work area for hauling the blocks up and onto it. Only the perimeter is necessary for this task, the workers would have more than sufficient room to haul the blocks up from all sides without getting in each others way. I think of it in terms of an assembly line where blocks are being continuously hauled up by the perimiter workers, then moved into position by a second line of workers.

Fantazm- yes exactly my point. It took more than 23 years! No aliens, magic or whatnot just way more time by humans. Simple. Or there was a mechanical technique which was so efficient that it enabled not only stability but a rapid rate of construction. Zahi Hahwas has uncovered quarters and facilities that would support 10,000, not 100,000 or more. If ever there were more on a temporary basis there is no archeological record to substantiate it. And temporary is all it could have been with the seasonal cycles of food production required to keep the economy humming. Basically a huge influx of untrained temps would be extremely difficult to manage.

The extraction of materials from quarries is time consuming. Most building pieces still had to be finished to a fraction of an inch interfacing similar pieces. Not as close in tolerance as facing stones but very smooth in relative terms. If they weren't, and spaces bewteen were filled by rubble, you'd have a unstable mountain of crap. Nowhere in I.E.S. Edwards 1947 book The Pyramids of Egypt does he mention construction like this. The rough hewn blocks seen on the outer ranks have been weathered for more than a few years. Rest assurred that the key blocks supporting the bulk of the construction were very tightly fitted, not all dressed but certainly smoothed out.

As Boorite said people today simply shrug off the immensity of the scale of the project imagining a bunch of guys moved a bunch of blocks. The modern quarryman's quote is most pertinent!! If producing the building materials with modern techniques would take up the time assigned for the entire project it leaves no time for construction.

We require planning for our buildings today. How long did it take to lay out the plans for the pyramid alone? How long did it take, how many meeting, to project the logistics needed to efficiently facilitate a smooth work flow? The Egyptians were miraculously able to tackle a project that was many times larger and more complex than anything previously attempted. Pyramids before hand gave experience, yes, but simply scaling up does not work in engineering! Yet they were able to put together a structure on an unheard of scale that remained the largest on the planet for millenia.

Go to any worksite of a huge construction and you immediately see the key is logistics. Materials have to arrive on site in a timely manner. Each morning a boss has to direct his crew as to what they are to accomplish in the day's time. They have to compliment and coincide with adjacent crews. Everyone must be on the same page, as it were, and a constant reassessment of progress relative to the crew, relative to the whole work force, relative to the outlined project goals for the specific time must be met. This requires constant re-evaluation by bosses throughout the day so schedules are kept. The organizational control was immense yet had to be precise. Get ready and work plan reinforcement time was needed each day before one chisel was lifed or one rope tugged.

If some of the construction was easier in the lower quadrants allowing many teams to work on unconnected segments we must realize that the [i]average[i] time of 2.5 minute per block means that several could theoretically be placed in final position simultaniously allowing us to "get ahead of the curve." We don't appreciate the picture of a team of 20-30 men pulling a stone from the quarry on whatever conveyance we can imagine- roller, sled or? Once they get to the vicinity of the final position the stone needs to be carefully and properly placed adjacent to its neighbor. We are saying that the actual movements required to muscle each into place happened in the time it took to write the last few sentences. How long would it take to just remove a rope harness if that was used? If muscling a stone into final position was required that alone would take a few minutes. If another method of leverage was used being precise and carefully calculating before executing the final move would have taken time as well.

Then about 1/3rd of the way up calculate how gravity increases the weight of the mass being conveyed to higher elevations. How much does the weigh increase in realitve terms per degree of incline in ratio to frictional resistance?

Then our valiant crew had to collect themselves and maneuver their conveyance equipment out of the way of the crews on their heels so they can repeat the same work all day every day. Do any of these chaps get a breather to collect themselves after a colossal effort or do they mindlessly labor till they drop?

How do you divide your 10,000 workers? How many are quarrymen, masons, block pullers, crew bosses and others. Recent estimates that 1,500 stone cutters produced 100 tons of finished stones per day. This 200,000 pounds of stones from, say, 250 six-man teams. They ranged from 2.5 to 15 tons in weight. At 2.5 tons per stone (2.5 was the minimum size) that’s just 80 per day, far short of our 273 minimum that need to be placed per diem if a schedule of 23 years is to be kept.

I can say stuff too.

Well?



You haven't been paying attention, have you?


To quarter the workers in the non faming season when he majority of the work was done.

Good.


I say the slowest part of the process. Worked on fom the momentt the papers were signed 24/7/365.


Most? Fraction?

You're he first I've heard besides me to emphasize that. Your own idea or garnered from who please?



Just a job site. Don't be getting all excited.

And the rest is nicely put. But I'm gonna tell you exacly how it could have been done just as you describe. In 23 years. Nice take.

But you still have to be able to...

[attachmentid=27862]

Huh?

Please Clarify, if you can.

Harte

Marc,
I have a suggestion.

were at best egotistical broadsides,

which included copious amounts of whining at not being instantly recognized as genius.

- get over youself.

Don't be so over the top.


Harte

See now?

You started it.

I'm telling skeptic.

Gone hurt my feelings. It took a ice cream sunday and my favorite stuffed teddy for my Mom to coax me out of my weeping closet.

Hey Harte, what would you say if I could post valid holes and doubts in every single other pyramid theory?

What so far do you think is the biggest flaw or weakness in my theory? Besides recording porn over the setting of the Kings chamber blocks video.

Do you know the direction the foundations of the possible new ramp led to? If towards the Nile I can give a valid reason. If other direction then I say it's just a wall or something.

Is it known how old Khufu got to be?

Ever seen the solar telescope theory? Very solid. But I didn't do the math.

I've been well behaved, haven't I?

There is no clearance I know of over Top Secret. All need to know at that point.

And when they gonna let me back in that other place? I've got the WTC collapse down solid and am dying to chew on the bomb people.

Tell me Bird didn't lie.

That's called pushing your luck.



That's classic. That's exactly what it was.

Next forum I find my first words will be, "This IS how the pyramids were built." Then be all polite and kind with the same theory. How do you think that will turn out?

I've a couple new water based levels that are far more acurate than that silly triangle and string. Thats for rough level for guys with one leg shorter than the other. With the pyramid corners being only 1" out of level (right?) I will not accept the triangle as the final gauge. At a certain point I set aside a modern bubble level when leveling vault doors as it is not accurate enough. Tthat process I haven't bought into play yet. Not sure if it will. I have one mehod for getting blocks up the pointy thing that I don't think the builders were slick enough to come up with. Block from botttom to top non stop, around corners and all, rollers thank you. Is your contention wooden roolers aren't durable enough? Seems they'd last longer than being dragged. And I've a couple of new ideas that use my road and dragged sleds with much less drag than anyhing presently out there. Just to shut up the drag a damn sled because I like pain people.

It's getting silly.

Just though of this one man roller device. One man stays behind picking up the rollers as they come out the back and doesn't have to keep walking to the front to place them. Safer too.

Do you know how long it takes to chisel out one average block?

You know they still do that today? I think one man sharpening chisels could keep up with 2 or three chiselers. And wood splitting? I don't think so. I grew up up north, only son, Dad burned about 7 cord a year. Logs, even more so because of heir length don't just split like you're suggesting. If you've split as many cord as I, then we can war.

Maybe as the rollers wore down they were used other places like on the steps, eh? Seen the lane drawings? Seen that suggested before? That's like what? 6-7 original ideas, that work, maybe.

We need an idea for keeping rollers spinning in place with out axels or bearings.

I think your Magician fellow joined my site just to tattle on me to my Dad.

What's up with that? Like that would do anyhing but ammuse him. When your thread is the most viewed and replied to by far on the whole site and stays like that forever and ever Amen and some tin foil hat site mod comes narcing that is the stuff of material, comic that is, what I call "self smacking".

I'm better than cash donations for Dad cause I draw a crowd baby.

[attachmentid=27874]

Wait till the big blocks. It's so simple.

So baiscally what is being said here is that we dont know how long it took to make the pyramids. so that would mean we dont know when they were started so we dont know who started the project. and we dont know how old the sphynx is either. is that correct

Yes, the Turin Papyrus attributes Cheops as reigning for 23 years, Herodotus said abot 50 and other sources talk about 65 years. Most of the accepted luminaries of Egyptology ascribe to the 23 years.

While this other character seems to only wish to selectively make fun of some of my statements he answers none of the questions other than that it is possible to move a great weight vertically using a technique that has been recreated recently in Egypt. It took like 2 hours to use wedges to raise a meter cube a meter high. They'd still be building it if that was the only method used.

The fact remains that a stone had to be fitted into its final place every 2.5 minutes during a 12 hour day for 23 years. This doesn't take into account planning the project leveling the site and making a stable base, cutting the stone from the quarries, smoothing it for fit or dressing them where needed. Take that into account and the time allowed for placement per stone goes down!

Yeah Marc. But I have a quote also:
(My emphasis)

BTW, I figured you meant any ideas and not and ideas. Since I did have an idea, I posted it. Seemed on topic and to the point, at least to the point of that particular part of your post.

Anyway, I know you didn't take anything I said personally. My question was to the Mod that made it look like we were having some kind of childish spat or something. Seemed a little over the top, when you consider some of the "conversations" I've seen posted here that were not later commented on by a Mod.

Makes me wonder if that was because another message board was mentioned. D'ya think?


Wouldn't surprise me a bit. You seem to have put quite a bit of thought into this. I've seen posts of people that appear to have put no thought at all into it, and sometimes they have valid problems with the generally accepted theories. Why shouldn't you?


LOL.

Seriously, if there is any big flaw, it is that to my mind there are probably even easier ways it might have been done. By this I mean certain steps of it might have been done in an even easier manner than you describe. Was I correct that your theories don't include the canals/moats that are supposed to have been used to move stone to the pyramid from quarries on the other side of the Nile?

Also, I still say rollers are unworkable. And that they provide only a little advantage over dragging, considering the need for constant roller replacement (and I do mean constant.)

But, as you know, I mostly agree with you, overall.


I don't know the details of either the remains of the ramps or the canal/moats. I believe you can find these at TourEgypt or at Hawass' website (Guardians somethingorother.)


So much so that I see my advice was not necessary, you apparently had already surmised a better way of communicating your ideas in a way that would more minimize the negative responses.


I'm not involved at ATS in any way other than posting, so, what do I know? But I will say this, I've never known Byrd to lie. I've corrected mistakes Byrd has made, but only rarely and far fewer times than she has corrected me!



Yep, that's the problem I have with your theory. See, wood is a material that has been thoroughly tested by engineering professionals, as it has been used as a building material forever. I can't provide you with the figures myself, but I remember reading where it had been shown that any wood would certainly have been split/crushed by many (not all) of the blocks used in the pyramid construction. It had to do with the rolling motion of the log. Whereas on the other hand, wood could have been used to provide a surface along which to slide the stones (two or three rows of logs in a tracklike layout), given enough lube, without needing constant replacement.

Anyway, as far as I'm aware, in your scenario above, the "one man" that stays behind would be picking up toothpicks, not rollers!

Harte

Marc, the source for the Indiana limestone quarry manager's estimate is Christopher Dunn, as stated.

Another way of looking at it is that all 33 limestone quarries currently operating in Indiana could, at current production levels, fill the order for the Khufu pyramid in 70 years, if they did nothing but fill pyramid orders during that time. Given life expectancy in ancient Egypt, that's 3-5 generations of workers in an operation on the scale of all 33 modern, industrial Indiana limestone quarries combined doing nothing but churning out blocks for the one pyramid. It is, in short, a mind-boggling undertaking. Even if moving and placing one huge block is something a safe mover could tell us how to do with bronze-age technology, the scale of the project beggars the imagination.

If you have a countervailing estimate from an industrial source saying what it would take to fill the stone order for the Khufu pyramid, I would like to hear it. You can spare the bluster and sensationalism. It's not necessary, and in fact it tends to deter me from reading your posts.

Hawass may very well be the director of Egyptian Antiquities but he is hardly the only person on earth capable of sizing up pyramidal building. Others, such as those consulted by Regine Schulz and Matthias Seidel, for example, estimate that number to be as high as 25,000.

There is no actual basis in fact of late for this supposition. It presupposes for example that construction today in northern climates is only done by farmers during their off season. There are numerous writings from Egypt which speak to a conscription and or the year round assignment to construction labour, such as the Instruction of Dua-Khety. Much can be learned from the writings of Ani as well.

This is akin to my earlier statement that only one block at a time was moved into place. Consider what we know-

some blocks weighed 10 tonnes and the smallest 2 tonnes.
the shallower the dig, the easier it is to haul heavier blocks out of the quarry.

If we presume that every block was cut to specification before it left the quarry then we presume that the architects required a block to be cut, transported and placed before the next can be carved. But, we know too that the blocks on each course were not all equal in dimension. If therefore the stonemasons were able to cut a 10 tonne block from the quarry and transport it onto the structure, then we know that they could take advantage of cutting a single slab of block- say 10 tonnes again, transport it from quarry to base and then cut it into the size they needed. Using the 2.5 tonne average, a single 10 tonne block would require 3 less cuts in the quarry and 3 fewer trips to and from the quarry if hauled out in one piece. There is nothing to say that the stones were cut precisely prior to being placed either as if I recall, Petrie noted rock debris on the sides of the pyramids. That 80 per day would therefore increase exponentially.

My bad. A post I did in reply to this didn't get there.

Try this...

I'll just give the drawing, no explanations. tell me if that conveys my thoughts or not. I'll add drawings untill I can clearly show this as most archeologists, engineers, Egyptologists, documentary film makers and Billo can't read. When I'm done I'm printing colring books and having raffles for the 86 color crayola crayon boxes. I will indoctrinate the next generation to my ideas. You people are beyond hope, which while fun to play with, doesn't spread the gospel that is moving weight and that one princible is all that is needed to be understood to build one of those big pointy things.

My way...

[attachmentid=27892]


This is what you are saying?

I see several problems with that.

Maybe with the drawing you can tell me what some are.


[attachmentid=27893]

I swear I'm not belittling or being condecending. I want folks to see the philosophy behind this. Like the one guy says, it's a schedualed job site, well planned, not a mystery. If folks see their own flaws then they would not be asking, while approriate, but wrong questions and instead may help better this theory. I want to find the best possible way to build these things, not be king or profit from this. I could publish this and get cash. Guys with much worse pyramid ideas make a comfortable living on that alone. Look at Dunn and Morris. I can sell a book and do well. Not my interest. I think that because I don't attempt to profit from this, books, CD's, appearences, web sites that you have to pay to see, and on, should should lend credibility to my stated reasons for the way I present his.

And folks, if you don't like the attitude, don't read me. Sooner or later I'll be in a foul mood and rock on those posts. You'll be annoyed, I'll be ammused, some will laugh, some will gasp, I'll get banned, and everyone will stop getting smarter. I'm way behaving for my usual self, deal with it.

And if you really want a peice of me, go to that web site I posted and give me a go, I friggin dare ya.

Without new evidence or the aliens telling us, we'll never know.


Ignore that, it's just me ammusing myself.


Because you're getting ahead of this. I will cover all of that. I promise. If you have a question on what I've stated so far or think I've not covered something from that phasae, by all means ask and I'll answer and you won't be claiming I aviod questions.



You see, here's where I get friggin banned.

Where do I say that I would raise the blocks in this manner?

Copy/paste it, link to the post, and I'll confess. See, you are either not reading, unable to read, can't comprehend what you read, are purposely trying to discredit me with lies, or you're just evil and petulant. Did I miss anything?

Listen carefully.

With my method, with everything staged, I can move a block up in 10 minutes one level alone. Yea I said that. I could go do it and film it. But that would just be me saying I told you so and you looking stupid. My goal is to through text and drawings, and eventually eiher alone, to get people to see in their minds eye how to do this. What's wrong with hat if that is my chosen goal?



Planning and preperation involved in the time of construction?

With my methods, I can show that almost any timeline can be meet. The limitations ae he amount of people that can fit into he works areas.

Now be constuctive and helpful and go find out how much rock one man can chisel in an hour provided he's kept supplied with as many sharp chisels as he wants.

Or would you rather be insulted like never before and get me banned and not be part of this here?

[attachmentid=27894]

I'll answer more later. For now to show you are in my thoughts always,


Better. Chopsticks, popcicle sticks, olive skewers, shishkabob skewers, pickup sticks, would also have been acceptable.

Or you can bring it up a level wih something like long range wife pokers, splints for liting your bong from a camp fire because you're a stoner and got the sack but forgot a supply of lighters or matches. Dude.

Or Harte voodoo doll pins.

Giddyup.

I think a screenname like Kidney or spleen would be more catchy. Or maybe desended testicle.

You people are keeping up, right?

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm losing interest in this topic just from this snide crap.

Then stop giving me a hard time, stop asking stupid questions, ask some good ones, tell what you want to know next, providing it's relatively in sequence, come up wih a rebuke that makes me think, answer my questions, know that that is your opinion, we all now know ivytheplant (dogtheanimal, pizzathefood, bluethecolor?) doesn't enjoy snideness and we can sratch that off our list of things to know before we die, you don' t have to read this, this is just getting started and I am still feeling out the tone of this site and adjusting myself to it, there's more solid stuff in those drawings about how the thing might have been built that you've read in your entire life, understand that because of your post I'm doing this instead of showing a way to turn a corner with a block on rollers, which is important to the subject and did you answer it? learn I WILL go on a long, meaningless, wastefull rant when others tell me their opinion about how much they hate me, I now know that you are not like me in that if there was a thread on curing cancer but with bad jokes or pictures of their vacation to the worlds largest ball own string I could see past the non topic stuff and not die of lung cancer, that last post was to Harte who took a jab at me and I replied and are you jelous? you can always go start your own thread and watch the views grow as you switch back and forth between this one and yours because that's the only way yours would grow, (there's a banning), we all now know you don't get invited to parties and you didn't know it until now because they didn't tell you about them, deal with the fact this is my thread, my way, until I'm banned and you can go tell mom if you don't like it, I can go on like this as long as I want and it's your fault, I'm holding WAY back,

and just for you,

to keep you interested, go search this web sites newbie threads and what the most interest by views over time has been and get back to me with the sad news of mass apathy.

Here's the block answer...

[attachmentid=27896]

[attachmentid=27897]

Now for you ivy, explain the principle illustrated in his pic and tell us how thacan save the pyramidbuilders money if understood and put in practice.

[attachmentid=27898]

Now see? I took your non productive opinion post, used it to abuse you (hopefully within the rules of here) and also segwayed into another block moving method and another question (cause I'm trying o get you to think and help not read and whine) that you will need to undersand the answer to to come to grips with just how much I know about this.

Your turn.

But bring more next time. I don't know about anyone else, but I'm losing interest in this topic just from this lame attempt at abuse.