Two questions;

Is it ever acceptable to tell a lie in the Christian faith?

Did Jesus tell a lie when he said he was not going to Jerusalem for the passover then later went?

Any thoughts?

Imagine this: You are walking down the road when you accidentally bump into a tall, hulking lad with a severe anger problem. You attempt to placate the guy, apologize and everything, but he's in a violent mood. So you run. He chases. You're faster, but he's fitter. You open a gap between you, but he's gaining on you slowly. He's pulled out a pole and is waving it menacingly, screaming "I'M GOING TO KILL YOU! I'M GOING TO KILL YOU!". As a last hope you run into a church building. The pastor is up there giving the sunday sermon. You run in, frantically tell the minister "A man's trying to kill me, it's all a big misunderstanding! QUick, I'm going to hide in the storeroom over there. When he comes in, tell him I left through the side door".

You hide just in time. The man runs in, eyes rolling in their sockets, frothing at the mouth. "WHERE - IS - HE?" the man asks.........

*insert the answer you think the Pastor should give*

The lie I would tell here. Which is more Loving? To tell the truth, obey the letter of the law, and condemn a poor guy to death or violence. OR break the letter of the law, and keep the command to Love your neighbour?

Remember that David when hiding from Saul, he lied to Ahimelech the priest, even ate the consecrated bread which was forbidden by all but priests. And for this, David was accounted righteous.

To not lie and condemn a man, I think, would be much like the Pharisees, who boasted in their righteous lawkeeping, and wouldn't break a law even to give food to the poor on the Sabbath (dear God, that's work).

Anyway, to the next question:

Just curious, are you sure it was Passover that he went to? The passage I thought you meant was John 7, which deals with the Feast of Tabernacles.

Assuming this is the passage in question, it comes down (I believe) to the motives for saying this. When his brother's asked him to attend the Feast, it was as a prophet, performing miracles and pandying to the crowd - "You ought to leave here and go to Judea, so that your disciples may see the miracles you do. No one who wants to become a public figure acts in secret. Since you are doing these things, show yourself to the world" (John 7:4). As you see, they wanted him to be public, to announce himself.

Jesus saw differently - "The right time for me has not yet come;..... I am not yet going to the Feast" (7:6,9). And so Jesus stayed behind. It was not his intention to attend as an honoured guest with place of honour, but to arrive humbly. And so Jesus goes later, without the pomp, without the ceremony, and used the time to teach about God, not play a parlour magician with miracles and feats to stun the crowd.

That's how I see it, at least

Regards, PA

"I can not tell you, for you would do bodily harm to him and I am honor bound by my beliefs not to cause harm to others through my actions or inaction"
any other answer would be a lie...and truely moral people do not lie.

However, in answer to the original question, Jesus lied several times; the biggest one was that he would return while that generation still lived!

Mako!

Leviticus 19:11 "Do not steal. " 'Do not lie. " 'Do not deceive one another.

And god turns around and:

22:21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.

22:22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets . And he said, Thou shalt persuade [him], and prevail also: go forth, and do so.

22:23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets , and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

Kindly,

Sean

Interesting answer, mako. But to use your answer (I think) would simply prompt the guy to start searching the church, and he'd eventually find him in the storeroom. Telling him he went out the side door would send the guy on a wild goose chase and away.

I stand by my lie, curse me and strike me down and cook me over a slow grill if you wish, but it would be the Loving thing to do, imo.

John 15:7 (Contemporary English Version)
Stay joined to me and let my teachings become part of you. Then you can pray for whatever you want, and your prayer will be answered.


Mark 11:24(CEV) Everything you ask for in prayer will be yours, if you only have faith.


Matthew 24:29-34 (Contemporary English Version)
When the Son of Man Appears
Right after those days of suffering: "The sun will become dark, and the moon will no longer shine. The stars will fall, and the powers in the sky will be shaken." Then a sign will appear in the sky. And there will be the Son of Man. All nations on earth will weep when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. At the sound of a loud trumpet, he will send his angels to bring his chosen ones together from all over the earth. Learn a lesson from a fig tree. When its branches sprout and start putting out leaves, you know that summer is near. So when you see all these things happening, you will know that the time has almost come. I can promise you that some of the people of this generation will still be alive when all this happens.

Well I assume you all have seen my God Lied comments by now.

Now PA I think you are walking a dangerous line there.

See you are instantly judging the action and trying to reconcile it.


So the priest says "He went thatta way!"

And the Priest LIED. FULL STOP.

Now you can slice it dice it anyway you like it but the truth is he lied.

FULL STOP.

Pause there a second.

Now you can begin to try to understand WHY he lied and debate if it was OK.

But that's the whole speed aspect of it.

The Priest could have also tried to calm the guy down. He could have asked the members of the church to help calm him down.

He also could have said NOTHING. He could have just stood there open eyed gaping.....and most likely the lug would have gone on his way.

God lied, Jesus lied. We can try to discuss the morality of it but the truth is they lied.

What book are verses 22:21-23 supposed to be found in?

Truethat - I live by the motto "Love God with all your heart and soul and mind, and Love your neighbour as yourself". Using this as a guide, I feel I am completely justified in saying in this instance "it's ok to lie".

In areas where people are being systematically hunted and killed for their beliefs or identities, they hide in people's basements and attics, and when the authorites come, the owner gives a confident "There's nobody in here, sir". OUTRIGHT LIE. But totally loving.

Biblically speaking, there are times when people break the law also, but because it was the right thing to do, they were accorded as righteous. Jesus healed people on the Sabbath (unlawful to do, condemned by the Pharisees, praised by those who were healed). Which is better to do good or to do evil? To give life or to take it away? If you wish to disagree with this answer, then so be it.

For the record, I do not believe either God or Jesus did lie. In the instance I discussed in my first post in this thread, Jesus simply says "The time for me has not come. I am not yet going to the Feast". So he stayed, and then later went. He only delayed for a couple of hours probably, but it's still not a lie. The point was the reasoning behind why he did not go with them.

Regards, PA

Outright LIE is right. All the semantics debating the morality of the lie are moot.

The point is that he did Lie.

HEY SEAN......you forgot something!


Cy....I believeit is from 1 Kings.

15And he cometh in unto the king, and the king saith unto him, `Micaiah, do we go unto Ramoth-Gilead, to battle, or do we forbear?' and he saith unto him, `Go up, and prosper, and Jehovah hath given [it] into the hand of the king.'

16And the king saith unto him, `How many times am I adjuring thee that thou speak nothing unto me but truth in the name of Jehovah?'

17And he saith, `I have seen all Israel scattered on the hills as sheep that have no shepherd, and Jehovah saith, These have no master; they turn back each to his house in peace.'

18And the king of Israel saith unto Jehoshaphat, `Have I not said unto thee, He doth not prophesy of me good, but evil?'

19And he saith, `Therefore, hear a word of Jehovah; I have seen Jehovah sitting on His throne, and all the host of the heavens standing by Him, on His right and on His left;

20and Jehovah saith, Who doth entice Ahab, and he doth go up and fall in Ramoth-Gilead? and this one saith thus, and that one is saying thus.

21`And the spirit goeth out, and standeth before Jehovah, and saith, I -- I do entice him; and Jehovah saith unto him, By what?

22and he saith, I go out, and have been a spirit of falsehood in the mouth of all his prophets; and He saith, Thou dost entice, and also thou art able; go out and do so.

23And now, lo, Jehovah hath put a spirit of falsehood in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and Jehovah hath spoken concerning thee -- evil.'

24And Zedekiah son of Chenaanah draweth nigh, and smiteth Micaiah on the cheek, and saith, `Where [is] this -- he hath passed over -- the Spirit of Jehovah -- from me to speak with thee?'

25And Micaiah saith, `Lo, thou art seeing on that day, when thou goest in to the innermost chamber to be hidden.'

1Kings 22:15-25


I believe this to mean that God was asking among the spirits which one entices the lies of Ahab, then the spirit that brings the lies to Ahabs prophets came forward, God then told that spirit to go and do so. Now as for do not lie, we are stepping into the question of whether or not the commandments of God to us are also to be followed by spirits. I believe that they have different laws to abide by as they are not human and therefore should not have to live laws based on human emotions.

RIGHT Pa, when Jesus was asked about the greatest commandment he said that it was Love th Lord with all your heart, and that the second greatest was Love one another. That means the law of love overrides the law of do not lie if the lie is told in love.

I shall pray for anyone in a loving relationship with you CyclonusJ! And then you would do well to pray to god and change your thinking, else you are hated by him, so sayeth the word.

Psalm 40:4 (King James Version)
Blessed is that man that maketh the LORD his trust, and respecteth not the proud, nor such as turn aside to lies.

Psalm 101:7 (King James Version)
He that worketh deceit shall not dwell within my house: he that telleth lies shall not tarry in my sight.

Proverbs 6:16-19, "These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren."

The Bible clearly states who sent the "spirit of falsehood".

As Jesus was God and he described himself as the 'Truth' I find it hard to construe the passage PA describes as Jesus telling a lie. He did not say I am NOT going,- rather Not YET.

In reference to PAs senario;
I think the Christian lives by the maxim what would Jesus do;
in this case if find it hard to accept that he would tell an outright lie in the pursuit of a 'good' out come.
We are told to "overcome evil with GOOD" and lies certainly are not GOOD. Jesus said that Satan is a liar and the Father of them. Jesus would not say he left out the back door imo. He would probably have talked to the guy asking him why he wanted to beat the other guy up for no reason etc. Jesus would be more likely to say something like I will not answer you because you seek to do harm to your brother,- but not tell a lie!

tag.....would you consider a partial truth to be a lie?

Here is the scripture; John 7.
1
1 After this, Jesus moved about within Galilee; but he did not wish to travel in Judea, because the Jews were trying to kill him.
2
But the Jewish feast of Tabernacles was near.
3
So his brothers 2 said to him, "Leave here and go to Judea, so that your disciples also may see the works you are doing.
4
No one works in secret if he wants to be known publicly. If you do these things, manifest yourself to the world."
5
For his brothers did not believe in him.
6
3 So Jesus said to them, "My time is not yet here, but the time is always right for you.
7
The world cannot hate you, but it hates me, because I testify to it that its works are evil.
8
You go up to the feast. I am not going up 4 to this feast, because my time has not yet been fulfilled."
9
After he had said this, he stayed on in Galilee.
10
But when his brothers had gone up to the feast, he himself also went up, not openly but (as it were) in secret.

Or to go to the scenario in another post of mine on this thread - what if an oppressive government were hunting out and eradicating a minority group? Christians have hidden people in basements and then when the authorities arrive, they tell them flatly "I am not hiding anyone. There is no one here". Anything else and the authorities swarm the house, capturing and possibly executing everyone inside.

That is not what I had in mind.

I got mixed up! This is not an accurate statement! I must have picked up PA wrong! I have posted the actual scripture now, so we can all see what I want to discuss.

Is it wrong to die for your faith in the midst of an opressive regime? Jesus did and so did many after! Is it wrong to tell lies? God says yes as far as I can see, and I have told my fair share of them!

It was also against the Law to eat consecrated bread. Only the priests were able to eat that. But David did eat (the same David who was the second greatest King of Israel). NOt only that but he told a lie to the priest he got it from. He was running away from Saul (the current King of ISrael, who wanted him dead), but so that he could eat (he was hungry), he told him he was on a secret mission from Saul.

It was wrong for Jesus to pick grain because he was hungry on the Sabbath. It was wrong that he healed a person on the Sabbath. But Jesus asks - "which is better? To good or to do evil. To take life or to save it"

Peter was berated for lying and saying "I don't know this man" (Jesus), but this was more because he denied Jesus rather than he told a lie.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating we should all start lying left, right and centre. Just that there may be times when it would not be considered wrong to lie.

- PA

Whose law are we talking about here PA?
The man made extras or the official God given Laws?

David also committed adultery and murder are these acceptable actions?

Isee what you are saying with regard to the letter of the law and the pharisees taking it too far etc, however the original law still is good and the extra constraints added to it was the problem Jesus had. He did not come to do away with the law but to fulfill it as you know, so the original laws given by God are always 'good'.

common sense should tell ya that being a human being is being a imperfect being we all make mistakes and we all lie at some point or another ,. it is i feel the intention behind the lie , or motive and if one does tell a lie they should not feel to good about it . it always comes back on a person,.. sometimes that in itself is allot of work ,..covering up lies. most
im sure understand what im saying.
if we do not feel good about lieing that means we want a clear conscience and those whom believe will or should in my opinion ask for forgivness , even of sins we are not aware of commiting, the other half of the question i would have to check it out more in the bible but so many have covered that question here with there posts, i see. good luck and hope all of these response have helped you with you questions .


Abecrombie

What I would point out, in this instance, is the preceding verse to 1 Kings 22:23. It makes clear the "Lord's" intentions:

1 Ki 22:22 'How?' the LORD asked him. He replied, 'I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.' Then the LORD said, 'You are to entice him, and you shall succeed; go out and do it.'

This is not "allowing" a lying spirit, but rather commanding it.

God commands ... and therefore is responsible for the lie that will bring disaster.

There is no argument here.

Sean

Just a quick replay on this. That Christians have hidden people to protect them is true.
Something simmilar happened during WWll in Bosnia, where Bosnian moslems used to hide Bosnian Jews in there homes, dressed in then "normal" bosnian clothes. And since Jew and moslem Men are both circumsized....... it was hard to tell for the nazis the differenc.
The only danger came from homegrown nazis who new the poeple around.

Back to the topic. It happens oft that pepole say that Jesus said this, said that, in between also lies. I do not think that Jesus was capable of lieing, and if he did it was to protect an inocent which in this case is not a lie.

But, also many things that even gospels say that Jesus claimd, where just put in his mouth.

We are not doing him justise with that.

does this mean you accept he was an actual living person mako?

He is going by the Bible on that comment

how can u answer for someone else? just curious

It's well and good to project a, "No" response to this answer. Until a gun's at your head. Or your on the rack being tortured , pulled apart, until you name your fellow believers. Then, when the "tissues in the tank" as they say , is when the truth wills out. You either speak and die anyway, or suffer till you die.

As for the lie scenario in the midst of an oppressive regime. I don't see it as a lie at all. It's a proper offense/defense, against the reign of tyranny. The rule becomes the embodiment of the first lie. One owes no allegiance to sustain that office when they are in the midst of a revolt against it's dominion over it's subjects.

So no, it's not a lie when, say the Nazi's during WW2, marched door to door seeking those bearing the pink triangle patch on their person (gays), to say ; no, we've not seen any one like that here. That is not a lie. It's justice! It's revolution against an evil that first examples itself as having no respect for truth. So to exhibit it, to answer truthfully, in the face of a tyrant that would to kill those inside that fictitious house if one were to answer the Nazi officers outside the door with the truth, would further assist the tyrannical regime in it's conquest of lives and freedoms. Furthering it's agenda of tyranny, which has no respect for truth in the first place.

He happens to be a good friend of mine and I have stated (but not so nicely) the same in the past.

Tags.......want to take a shot at this.
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