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Startraveler
I spend a decent amount of time championing what I view as the strengths of science, those attributes that make it such an effective system for weeding out wrong ideas and gleaning bits of understanding about the universe. Testable, falsifiable predictions and experimental confirmations tell us that we're either wrong or on the right track. I've argued that science isn't built on blind faith, I've clashed with people like truethat over whether science is a religion.

But today in a thread in the Spirituality forum someone brought up the subject of string theory and I threw in:

QUOTE
I just want to point out that there's a good many people who don't think string theory's all it's cracked up to be; there're even some popular-level (or close to popular-level at least) books out this year that can counter Brian Greene's enthusiastic books, like Lee Smolin's The Trouble with Physics and Peter Woit's Not Even Wrong. Strings need not be the be-all end-all of physics.


Tonight in my late night web-surfing I happened across Woit's recent review of Smolin's book; in many ways it threatens to invalidate my defenses of (and affection for) science--rather, specifically physics (and a specific area of physics at that--but still).

QUOTE
Smolin begins his book by explaining what he (and I) see as the most important fact about the past thirty years of theoretical particle physics research. We’re in a historically unprecedented situation, with virtually no progress being made on the fundamental problems of particle physics for a very long time, despite huge efforts. In his description, the field has “hit a wall”; I like to describe it as a victim of its own success. The standard model is just too good. It’s too hard to find an experimental result that disagrees with it, and too hard to come up with theoretical advances that will address some of the things it leaves unexplained. Smolin sees the source of the problem in the field’s insistence on sticking with a way of doing science which worked until 30 years ago, but now has become dysfunctional, with string theory only a symptom of the underlying problem. He writes:

I have mentored several talented young people through crises very similar to my own. But I cannot tell them what I told my younger self - that the dominant style was so dramatically successful that it must be respected and accomodated. Now I have to agree with my younger colleagues that the dominant style is not succeeding.

Elsewhere he writes:

My hypothesis is that what’s wrong with string theory is the fact that it was developed using the elementary-particle-physics style of research, which is ill-suited to the discovery of new theoretical frameworks… This competitive, fashion-driven style worked when it was fueled by experimental discoveries but failed when there was nothing driving fashion but the views and tastes of a few prominent individuals.

Smolin was a student of Stanley Deser’s, and during his graduate student years supergravity was a field that was just taking off. He describes getting to know Peter van Nieuwenhuizen and Martin Rocek and being offered a chance to get into the field at the ground floor, one he passed up because he couldn’t believe that the kind of lengthy algebraic calculations they were doing could give real insight:

It was like being offered one of the first jobs at Microsoft or Google. Rocek, van Niewuwenhuizen, and many of those I met through them have made brilliant careers out of supersymmetry and supergravity. I’m sure that from their point of view, I acted like a fool and blew a brilliant opportunity.

Smolin didn’t join the Stony Brook supergravity group, but found that he could make a place for himself in the physics community working on quantum gravity, but using particle physicist’s methods:

… an easy opportunity opened up while I was a graduate student, which was to attack the problem of quantum gravity using recent methods developed to study the standard model. So I dould pretend to be a normal-science kind of physicist and train as a particle physicist. I then took what I learned and applied it to quantum gravity.

Smolin ended up with a post-doc at the new ITP in Santa Barbara, which luckily was running a program on quantum gravity that year. His career tactic almost didn’t pay off:

One day, as we were waiting for the results of our applications, a friend came by to tell me that I was unlikely to get any jobs, because it was impossible to compare me with other people. If I wanted a career, I had to stop working on my own ideas and work on what other people were doing, because only then could they rank me against my peers.

The most powerful part of the book are the chapters entitled How Do You Fight Sociology?, and How Science Really Works. They give a detailed and clear diagnosis of the problematic way string theory research is being conducted, and decisions are being made about who deserves a job. Smolin has an insider’s point of view, particularly because he himself worked on string theory:

… during the years I worked on string theory, I cared very much what the leaders of the community thought of my work. Just like an adolescent, I wanted to be accepted by those who were the most influential in my little circle. If I didn’t actually take their advice and devote my life to the theory, it’s only because I have a stubborn streak that usually wins out in these situations. For me, this is not an issue of “us” versus “them,” or a struggle between two communities for dominance. These are very personal problems which I have been contending with internally for as long as I have been a scientist.

So I sympathize strongly with the plight of string theorists, who want both to be good scientists and to have the approval of the powerful people in their field. I understand the difficulty of thinking clearly and independently when acceptance in your community requires belief in a complicated set of ideas that you don’t know how to prove yourself. This is a trap it took me years to think my way out of.


Smolin gives many examples of the “groupthink” behavior of the string theory community, while characterizing string theorists as “almost all more open-minded and self-critical and less dogmatic than they are en masse.” He describes string theorists as:

… supremely confident both of the truth of string theory and of their superiority over those unable or unwilling to do it. To many string theorists, especially the young ones with no memory of physics before their time, it is incomprehensible that a talented physicist, given the chance, would choose to be anything but a string theorist.

…Anyone who hangs out with string theorists encounters this kind of supreme confidence regularly. No matter what the problem under discussion, the one option that never comes up (unless introduced by an outsider) is that the theory might simply be wrong. If the discussion veers to the fact that string theory predicts a landscape and hence makes no predictions, some string theorists will rhapsodize about changing the definition of science.

Some string theorists prefer to believe that string theory is too arcane to be understood by human beings, rather than consider the possibility that it might just be wrong.


Smolin finds in the string theory community a sense of entitlement and disdain for anyone who works on alternatives to the theory, with major string theory conferences never inviting people who work on alternatives to speak. An editor from Cambridge University Press told him that one string theorist said he would never consider publishing with the press because it had put out a book on LQG (I see why their publishing my book was out of the question…). At string theory conferences Smolin would be asked “what are you doing here?” or told “It’s so nice to see you here! We’ve been worried about you.” Some friends explained to him that if he wanted to be considered part of the string theory community he had to work not just on string theory, but on the particular string theory problems that were fashionable at the moment.

One problem for physicists trying to get tenured positions that Smolin mentions is that most universities now require letters from 10-15 people evaluating their work, with a small number of negative evaluations sufficient to sink their chances. If you’re working on something other than a mainstream topic, finding 10-15 people who can comment knowledgeably on your work can be impossible. He describes string theorists as mostly submitting the same two or three research proposals. This narrow concentration on a small number of problems is defended by some senior theorists as a “disciplined” approach, one that will more surely lead to progress than encouraging people to pursue a variety of different research directions.

Very recently, Smolin sees things changing:

Until last year I had hardly ever encountered an expression of doubt from a string theorist. Now I sometimes hear from young people that there is a “crisis” in string theory. “We have lost our leaders,” some of them will say. “Before this, it was always clear what the hot direction was, what people should be working on. Now there’s no real guidance,” or (to each other, nervously) “Is it true that Witten is no longer doing string theory?”

One can quantify this new situation by noting that there have been virtually no heavily cited new papers during the past few years, except perhaps for the KKLT one that is part of the landscape story.

Smolin notes that many string theorists (including himself) have often been ill-informed about the exact state of knowledge concerning crucial conjectures about string theory. . .


Some "rhapsodize about changing the definition of science"? Think the alleged final theory is "too arcane to be understood by human beings"? What the f***?

Frankly that scares me. I have no idea how prevalent such thinking is but certainly string theory has experienced quite a bit of popularity in physics departments around the world and it would seem its practitioners are well-rewarded. But one of the hallmarks of science is that it doesn't look to undetectable, unprovable mysterious entities beyond human understanding as a solution to a problem. Honestly, how can I continue defending science from claims that its merely "the new religion" if we're ready to do something like that? Where's the integrity in changing the definition of science so that theories making no testable predictions and coming in 10^500 different flavors make the cut?

Call me crazy but I'm of the Einstein school of thought that the most incomprehensible thing about the whole universe is that it's comprehensible. And that physics should include a little, well, physics here and there. I won't deny that I'm a little disturbed by the way things are going. I take a little comfort in the fact that things always seem to sort themselves out in the long run, slowly but surely. If there's a better alternative it will be explored. It's just going to take some time.

But this whole thing leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Poetic Reven
Once again, I leave one of my favorite quotes.

The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far. The sciences, each straining in its own direction, have hitherto harmed us little; but some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new dark age. -H.P.Lovecraft

It may not sound like much coming from a writer of fiction. But it does make you think.
Heru
QUOTE(Arbiter22 @ Sep 9 2006, 03:10 AM) [snapback]1342752[/snapback]

Once again, I leave one of my favorite quotes.

The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far. The sciences, each straining in its own direction, have hitherto harmed us little; but some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new dark age. -H.P.Lovecraft

It may not sound like much coming from a writer of fiction. But it does make you think.


laugh.gif ya it does.
Cebrakon
grin2.gif As an amateur physicist, I must agree with StarTraveler in all he says. Instead of being the theory of everything, String Theory has turned out to be the theory of anything, and thus nothing. There are at least 10^500 quite different universes compatible with it.

angry.gif Physics took a wrong turn at the fifth Solvay conference in 1927, where the wave-particle paradox was simply accepted as an integral part of the emerging Standard Model. After that, de Broglie dropped out of physics, and Einstein went his own way, emerging from his study from time to time to aim barbs at quantum mechanics.

w00t.gif Some years later, the great logician Kurt Goedel proved a number of fundamental theorems about any logical system, including this one: if a logical system incorporates a logical impossibility, anything can be proved with it, such as that 1 = 2. Thus, the origins of quantum weirdness, and the rejection of common sense. Everything in physics after Einstein incorporates logical impossibilities. The wave-particle paradox is not the only one. Heisenberg applied his uncertainty relations to the vacuum and came up with virtual particles. The only problem with this is that it gives infinite energy density to the vacuum. Thiis reductio ad absurdem didn't bother the physicists at all. A mathematician would conclude that therefore virtual particles don't exist. After Feynman all of physics was based on virtual particles. Having swallowed several logical impossibilities, one more wouldn't hurt.

ph34r.gif Physics jumped the tracks of scientific method in 1927, and has been moving steadily farther into the realms of mathematical fantasy, as represented by String Theory. Physics is no longer our best example of scientific method. Plate tectonics in geology is a much better model. This has also been a great age for astronomy and biology.

~~~Cebrakon
Startraveler
I'd agree that quantum mechanics is likely incomplete in some way but I wouldn't say it "went off the tracks" in 1927; the fact is it's wildly successful, scary accurate, and its greatest successes have come after 1927. The idea that the vacuum itself is associated with an energy density might be strange but it's borne out by things like the Casimir effect and the accelerating expansion of the universe (and perhaps someday in the near future by experimental verification of the Unruh effect); though of course there are lots and lots of questions about the particular value that energy density takes. Similarly it might seem odd that forces are mediated by virtual particles but virtual particles need to be taken into account to account for things like the Lamb shift.

So while it's strange and at its heart we simply don't understand it, quantum physics works. It makes predictions that agree with experiments (in the case of QED) better than any theories in the history of mankind; as Feynman put it "To give you a feeling for the accuracy of these numbers, it comes out something like this: If you were to measure the distance from Los Angeles to New York to this accuracy, it would be exact to the thickness of a human hair. That's how delicately quantum electrodynamics has, in the past fifty years, been checked-both theoretically and experimentally."

Now certainly there's something unsatisfying about not knowing what's going on behind the scenes or why the theory works as it does. That's why I said it seems somehow incomplete. But regardless, it isn't comparable to string theory--unsettling or not, quantum physics is science. It makes predictions that have been verified. It connects to reality in a very big way and can show you that at the drop of a hat. The question is whether there's more to it than meets the eye, something behind it all that shows the method to the madness? Woit notes later in that book review:

QUOTE
There’s much else of interest in Smolin’s book, including a lot of material about what he sees as promising ideas in quantum gravity, discussion of research on the foundations of quantum mechanics, and a chapter on “seers”, people doing original work on foundations. These include ‘t Hooft, Penrose, and many others less well-known.


Gerard 't Hooft in particular is one guy who believes it is possible and necessary to demystify quantum mechanics--to figure out what's really going on. He's written about this pursuit:

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The need for an improved understanding of what Quantum Mechanics really is, needs hardly be explained in this meeting. My primary concern is that Quantum Mechanics, in its present state, appears to be mysterious. It should always be the scientists' aim to take away the mystery of things. It is my suspicion that there should exist a quite logical explanation for the fact that we need to describe probabilities in this world quantum mechanically. This explanation presumably can be found in the fabric of the Laws of Physics at the Planck scale.

However, if our only problem with Quantum Mechanics were our desire to demystify it, then one could bring forward that, as it stands, Quantum Mechanics works impeccably. It predicts the outcome of any conceivable experiment, apart from some random ingredient. This randomness is perfect. There never has been any indication that there would be any way to predict where in its quantum probability curve an event will actually be detected. Why not be at peace with this situation?

One answer to this is Quantum Gravity. Attempts to reconcile General Relativity with Quantum Mechanics lead to a jungle of complexity that is difficult or impossible to interpret physically. In a combined theory, we no longer see "states" that evolve with "time", we do not know how to identify the vacuum state, and so on. What we need instead is a unique theory that not only accounts for Quantum Mechanics together with General Relativity, but also explains for us how matter behaves. We should find indications pointing towards the correct unifying theory underlying the Standard Model, towards explanations of the presumed occurrence of supersymmetry, as well as the mechanism(s) that break it. We suspect that deeper insights in what and why Quantum Mechanics is, should help us further to understand these issues.

Related to the question of quantizing gravity is the problem of quantizing cosmology. Astrophysicists tell us that the Universe started with a "big bang", but, at least at first sight, such a statement appears to be at odds with the notions of quantum mechanical uncertainty. In principle, we could know the state the Universe is in presently, and then one could solve the Schrödinger equation backwards in time, but this should yield a quantum superposition of many configurations, not just a Big Bang. Questions of this sort may seem of purely academic nature, but they become very concrete as soon as one attempts to construct some reasonable model for a "Quantum Universe". The notion of a quantum state of the Universe appears to defy logic.

Attempts nevertheless to reconcile Quantum Mechanics with Cosmology were made. Whether the proposed schemes may be viewed as a satisfactory picture of our world, is difficult to discuss. To convince someone that they are flawed may be as difficult as changing someone's religious beliefs. Therefore, I shall refrain from trying to do this; instead, one further issue is as displayed in the next section.


I don't think it's fair to condemn 20th century physicists for pursuing absurd theories. The double slit experiment is pretty absurd. The universe has turned out to be (or at least put on a good show of being) absurd. For whatever reason common sense doesn't work anymore. It's not good science to try and apply in such situations where it's clearly not applicable. The mathematical fantasies of quantum physicists are firmly rooted in experimentation; like them or not, they are science. And like I said, "accurate" doesn't begin to describe some of the theories contained therein. Strings, on the other hand, are a different beast.
truethat
I am not a science person. But I am a people person.

So all that you have posted goes way over my head.

To me the problem is that as human beings we are plagued by a sort of Existential depression regarding how we got here.

It is natural for us to reach for the stars and try to sort out answers. But the answers we come up with are just small shouts at the great unknown.

Science is convinced we can figure it all out and with that comes a sort of hubris.

What frightens me in the science world is the absolute distain with which it treats people like me, who don't know anything about science, who don't believe their theories or ideas.

I think the attitude and hostility and anger that comes out of the science community is what is upsetting to me.

Plus I know that peer review can often be a popularity contest.

There is much that we know. But there is much that we will never know.

I can accept this.

Science seems not to be able to accept this. Its interesting in that it started off working and as of late, in its hostile response to the ID people (which however much I dispise the ID theory as an athesit, I think it should get equal time as an idea)

But what we should be concerned about in my opinion is what happens when your scientists start acting like Christian fundies?

There is no seperation between science and state.
Startraveler
QUOTE
What frightens me in the science world is the absolute distain with which it treats people like me, who don't know anything about science, who don't believe their theories or ideas.


What scientist has treated you with disdain? I'm curious how this perception has come about; forgive me but you don't strike me as someone who has much contact with scientists.

I think you'll find that a good many scientists enjoy sharing their ideas and knowledge with interested laypeople. What you have to ask yourself is how drawing conclusions about theories you admit to knowing nothing about is intellectually defensible. Explore the ideas, examine why accepted theories are accepted, look at the evidence in favor. Ask questions.


QUOTE
There is much that we know. But there is much that we will never know.

I can accept this.

Science seems not to be able to accept this.


You seem to be more of the opinion that we can never know anything, that scientific progress is fundamentally unreliable and that scientific knowledge is simply a matter of belief that would one can simply choose to disregard. It's not. That's why I have a problem with string theory and why I started this thread.

I think the way theoretical physics is presented is partly to blame for your perceptions and misconceptions. We see concepts and ideas that are extremely speculative and have little support trumpeted in the media. Extra dimensions and branes and whatnot. I myself like to occasionally post or talk about such out there concepts because, frankly, they're cool. It's fun to stretch the imagination now and then. But it's when the distinction is not made between these and theories that are well-supported and are much more concrete that we have a problem. And I think often in this or that news article about a fun new idea this distinction is not made and so that leads to some confusion as to how reliable theoretical physics (and, apparently, science in general) is. But that's the nature of the frontier today. It's speculative, it's fast-paced, and experimental verification is starting to lag behind (though even this is an unhealthy generalization--not all theoretical physics is like string theory; there's a great deal of it that is well-grounded and is being verified).

There is a difference between such "frontier science" and established ideas, concepts, and theories. These frontier ideas (and by that I'm talking specifically about these so-called "grand unification theories" that attempt to wrap all physics up into one unique bundle) are attempt to go beyond what's known now, to find something deeper. And that's a noble pursuit in many ways (though as my original post makes clear it seems many are going about it in a funny way). But I think those ideas are leading you to believe the ideas they attempt to build on are as capricious as frontier physics is proving to be.

Certainly there may indeed be things we can never know. But that's not an excuse for stopping the search. We don't know what we can't know. Throwing up our hands in despair is not the way to find out.

QUOTE
But what we should be concerned about in my opinion is what happens when your scientists start acting like Christian fundies?


I don't want you to misinterpret my initial post. It is aimed squarely at string theory which at its heart seems to be fundamentally unverifiable (and ok with that!). If that truly is the case then I think it's fair to ask if this particular area of physics is beginning to blur the lines between science and religion.

That's not an indictment of science. Rather, it's a question of whether this is science.

I'm not sure if that's what you're getting at here. You generally make a broader point about science in general that I feel is unfair. In what we're talking about in this particular thread I think it might be fair. But that's not something that should (or, I think, can) be extended from string theory to the rest of science.
truethat
I am not the only person I know that feels this way.

My sister is a Marine Biologist (or got her degree in that anyway) and her hubby is a big player in the biology world.

So yes I have had my exposure to science people. And online people are even worse.

Very rude and patronizing. Doubt me?

Take a quick look see and you won't have to look far before you see the snobby name calling.
Startraveler
QUOTE
My sister is a Marine Biologist (or got her degree in that anyway) and her hubby is a big player in the biology world.


She shows disdain for you questioning her research? Is that where you're going with this?

QUOTE
So yes I have had my exposure to science people. And online people are even worse.

Very rude and patronizing. Doubt me?

Take a quick look see and you won't have to look far before you see the snobby name calling.


I'm not sure "online people" count. Most aren't actually scientists and they're certainly not representatives of the science community. They're just people and, yes, people are often rude online. It happens.

And of course I'm not arguing that all scientists are Bill Nye; as with all groups of people some are douchbags. Follow the link in my original post to Woit's review of the book and scroll down to the comments by Lubos Motl. Then follow the link to the Amazon page for Smolin's book and read Motl's review of it. Not a particularly nice guy, it seems (though perhaps in person he's a great guy, I don't know).

Your problem is that you're generalizing a handful of people (who may or may not even be scientists) being rude to an entire profession. I disagree that scientists in general treat people without a scientific background or those with differing opinion with disdain. But as is often said, everyone's entitled to their own opinion but not their own facts. If you have somehow who "doesn't believe in" special relativity then it's very possible they're ignoring the facts that time really does dilate and lengths really do contract for particles moving at high relative velocities. These are things we can see and measure--not believing them isn't really an option. Perhaps in circumstances like that I could see exasperation creeping in. But we're not talking about someone being willfully and blindly obstinate, are we? We're talking about people with thoughtful reservations about this or that theory or people who simply aren't familiar with them.
truethat
Actually I don't think scientists are rude in general. Just in regard to Evolution.

But when evolution is brought up the claws come out and people are called stupid, uninformed, and it is insisted that if you question Evolution you are automatically a supporter of ID.

Its quite ridiculous.
Startraveler
This thread isn't about evolution or ID and I'd prefer it stay that way; there are already active threads on that. This one is more generally about the sociology of science and the disturbing direction certain avenues of physics are taking. What counts as science? Who gets to decide? What are the limits to what physicists can figure out? Etc, etc.
ai_guardian
Startraveler, I share your concerns about String Theory. yes.gif
There are differences in String Theory that separate it from the rest of the scientific theories. The most striking and obvious difference is its malleability. Even before anything is confirmed it has morphed so much that it is a whole field of study on its own including its history! The underlying mathematical concepts have changed so often that it is hard to keep up. The nail in the coffin however, IMO, is its inability to prove itself either false or closer to our understanding of reality. By inability I mean that the tests proposed and predictions made cannot be observed with current technology. This itself does not deny its viability but it does put it on par with some science-fiction books and even with religion to a degree (Assuming that we could build some instrument in the long distant future that will allow us to peek into "heaven").

The way string theory is going (scientific method-wise) should not be taken as indicative of how the majority of scientific theories are presented.

Quantum Theory should not be compared to string theory or made a victim of some compromise with scientific method. It has proven itself over and over and even if there are numerous interpretations of what is taking place on the quantum level the correlation of experimental data to theoretical data is remarkably accurate. Sure, quantum mechanics has uncovered some very bizzare phenomena but they are only bizzare because we do not fully understand them qualitatively - hence the interpretations. thumbsup.gif and Richard Feynman's famous quote "shut up and calculate."
Pentcho Valev
THE ASSUMPTION THAT DESTROYED PHYSICS

In “Beyond String Theory” in his book “The Trouble With Physics: The Rise of String Thory, the Fall of a Science, And What Comes Next” Lee Smolin asks:

“. . . I believe there is something basic we are all missing, some wrong assumption we are all making. If this is so, then we need to isolate the wrong assumption and replace it with a new idea. What could this wrong assumption be?”

The answer:

http://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/einstein/specrel/www/ :
“…light is always propagated in empty space with a definite velocity c which is independent of the state of motion of the emitting body.”

See also:

http://www.ekkehard-friebe.de/wallace.htm
“Shatter this postulate [of constancy of the speed of light], and modern physics becomes an elaborate farce!”
Einstein: “If the speed of light is the least bit affected by the speed of the light source, then my whole theory of relativity and theory of gravity is false.”
Einstein: “I consider it quite possible that physics cannot be based on the field concept,i.e., on continuous structures. In that case, nothing remains of my entire castle in the air, gravitation theory included, [and of] the rest of modern physics.”

See also the discussion in

http://blogs.nature.com/news/blog/2006/02/...nsteins_th.html

Pentcho Valev
pvalev@yahoo.com

Startraveler
No. Stop.

Moderator!
Roj47
QUOTE(Startraveler @ Sep 13 2006, 04:30 PM) [snapback]1348192[/snapback]

No. Stop.

Moderator!


blink.gif
Pentcho Valev
EINSTEIN'S SECOND LAW

http://www.physicstoday.org/vol-60/iss-1/12_2.html :
"Why no Einstein's laws? Since my undergraduate days, I have been puzzled by the fact that we have Newton's laws of motion but only Einstein's theory of special relativity. We have finished celebrating the 100th anniversary of the publication of the theory of special relativity, and it seems to me that after a century of validation, it's time to rename it as more than just a theory. I propose that we, as physicists, define a set of Einstein's laws, just as we have Newton's laws, Coulomb's law, or Faraday's law. I begin the discussion by offering the following three laws: The laws of physics are identical in all non-accelerating (that is, inertial) frames. The vacuum speed of light, c, is the same for all inertial frames. The total energy E of a body of mass m and momentum p is given by E = [√m2c4 + p2c2]. In particular, the energy of a body measured in its own rest frame is given by E = mc2, and the energy of a massless body is E = pc."

Consider again Einstein's Second Law:

Einstein's Second Law (original version): "The vacuum speed of light, c, is the same for all inertial frames." (In fact, the original 1905 version of Einstein's Second Law was a bit different but this is irrelevant here.)

This extremely important Law was improved by Einstein himself in the following way:

Einstein's Second Law (improved): The observer's frame may be inertial but if the observer and the light source are at different gravitational potentials, the speed of light is variable and obeys the equation c'=c(1+V/c^2), where V is the gravitational potential relative to the light source.

This improved version of Einstein's Second Law was gloriously confirmed in 1960 when Pound and Rebka measured a gravitational redshift factor equal to 1+V/c^2. Then clever Einsteinians deduced the ultimate version of Einstein's Second Law:

Einstein's Second Law (ultimate version): If the relative speed of the observer and the emitting body is zero, light is always propagated in empty space with a variable speed c'=c(1+V/c^2) where c is the initial speed of photons relative to the emitting body and V is the gravitational potential relative to the place of emission. Equivalently, if the observer and the place of emission are at the same gravitational potential, light is always propagated in empty space with a variable speed c'=c+v where v is the relative speed of the observer and the emitting body.

Clever Einsteinians were going to inform the world about the ultimate version of Einstein's Second Law but suddenly they realised the ultimate version was incompatible with the original version. The money-spinner called the theory of relativity was in danger so clever Einsteinians postponed the publication of the ultimate version until some new money-spinner was devised.

Pentcho Valev
pvalev@yahoo.com
RabidCat
Aaarrgghhh!!!!
Going to be a little snotty now. If ya don't like it, don't read it.
Having been associated with the sciences from a very early age (6), and being of an AARP age now, and having had a career in control electronics, I am forced to state that I do not wholeheartedly believe in any of the sciences, period. For those who don't know, control systems engineers, especially contract engineers, work hand-in-hand with hundreds, if not thousands, of different aspects of science. Just check it out.
Unfortunately, I've come to the conclusion that the vast majority of the "laws" remain as theories, and, as such, are susceptible to revision; revision must come at that point when we are no longer "in love" with the laws and quote same whenever possible.
String theory is likewise, as is quantum physics, as are Einstein's theories.
In general, we tend to discard those items that don't fit, rather than incorporating them either as "let the buyer beware" or even as sidebars. The original theories are left intact, and the rest is discarded. Unfortunately for the "laws", the ignored parts can't be shredded.
Yup, mostly they do work in our macro world; my problem is just that there are things out there that apparently nobody sees, and most people just want to disregard those things, and quote some bs "law" that will eventually need modification anyway.
My motto is "Always keep an open mind". Period.
Lt_Ripley

As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain, as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality.

Albert Einstein

so true.
Pentcho Valev
QUOTE(Lt_Ripley @ Feb 16 2007, 06:01 AM) [snapback]1545144[/snapback]
As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain, as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality.

Albert Einstein

so true.


EINSTEIN'S ORIGINAL ABSURDITY

http://www.physorg.com/news12032.html
"This is Einstein's Twin Paradox, and although it sounds strange, it is absolutely true. The theory of relativity tells us that the faster you travel through space, the slower you travel through time."

Let us return to the original statement:

http://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/einstein/specrel/www/
ON THE ELECTRODYNAMICS OF MOVING BODIES By A. Einstein June 30, 1905: "From this there ensues the following peculiar consequence. If at the points A and B of K there are stationary clocks which, viewed in the stationary system, are synchronous; and if the clock at A is moved with the velocity v along the line AB to B, then on its arrival at B the two clocks no longer synchronize, but the clock moved from A to B lags behind the other which has remained at B by tv^2/2c^2 (up to magnitudes of fourth and higher order), t being the time occupied in the journey from A to B. It is at once apparent that this result still holds good if the clock moves from A to B in any polygonal line, and also when the points A and B coincide. If we assume that the result proved for a polygonal line is also valid for a continuously curved line, we arrive at this result: If one of two synchronous clocks at A is moved in a closed curve with constant velocity until it returns to A, the journey lasting t seconds, then by the clock which has remained at rest the travelled clock on its arrival at A will be tv^2/2c^2 second slow."

Einstein's argument produces another "peculiar consequence". If there is a large number of clocks scattered in the stationary system and if at t=0 all of them start moving in various directions, along various curves, "with the velocity v", any meeting between two such clocks would reveal TWO EQUAL READINGS (because, in accordance with Einstein's argument, at the meeting either moving clock lags behind a stationary clock situated at the place of the meeting by tv^2/2c^2).

Clearly the equality of the two readings at ANY meeting is both a corollary of and incompatible with Einstein's time dilation. In days long gone, when theoretical science was still alive, that could have been called REDUCTIO AD ABSURDUM and the original falsehood - Einstein's principle of constancy of the speed of light - could have been rejected. Unfortunately sages had said only experiments could refute theories and Einstein modified his theory accordingly. Then theoretical science irreversibly died and nowadays journalists (not scientists) declare "Science and maths degrees in irreversible decline":

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article...#39;/article.do
"Sciences, maths and languages are suffering an 'irreversible decline' and dying out in British universities, a study has warned."

Pentcho Valev
pvalev@yahoo.com

Leonardo
QUOTE(Pentcho Valev @ Feb 16 2007, 08:56 AM) [snapback]1545309[/snapback]
EINSTEIN'S ORIGINAL ABSURDITY

http://www.physorg.com/news12032.html
"This is Einstein's Twin Paradox, and although it sounds strange, it is absolutely true. The theory of relativity tells us that the faster you travel through space, the slower you travel through time."


Pentcho Valev
pvalev@yahoo.com


This statement is not completely accurate and so is misleading. The faster an object travels through space the slower the measurement of time will be on that object relative to a stationary point of reference. It is only the measurement of time that will change and this has not been proven to be the same as stating that time itself will slow down.

Avinash_Tyagi
QUOTE(ai_guardian @ Sep 10 2006, 10:19 PM) [snapback]1344963[/snapback]
Startraveler, I share your concerns about String Theory. yes.gif
There are differences in String Theory that separate it from the rest of the scientific theories. The most striking and obvious difference is its malleability. Even before anything is confirmed it has morphed so much that it is a whole field of study on its own including its history! The underlying mathematical concepts have changed so often that it is hard to keep up. The nail in the coffin however, IMO, is its inability to prove itself either false or closer to our understanding of reality. By inability I mean that the tests proposed and predictions made cannot be observed with current technology. This itself does not deny its viability but it does put it on par with some science-fiction books and even with religion to a degree (Assuming that we could build some instrument in the long distant future that will allow us to peek into "heaven").



Are you saying that since we cannot prove or disprove String theory with what we have we should basically dismiss it, since its little more than science fiction or religion, in your opinion? hmm.gif

Pentcho Valev
HYPOCRISY OR WHY THEORETICAL SCIENCE DIED

http://www.nyas.org/publications/UpdateUnb...asp?UpdateID=41
“A Crisis in Fundamental Physics…Then, about 30 years ago, something changed. The last time there was a definitive advance in our knowledge of fundamental physics was the construction ofthe theory we call the standard model of particle physics in 1973. The last time a fundamental theory was proposed that has since gotten any support from experiment was a theory about the very early universe called inflation, which was proposed in 1981.”

http://www.logosjournal.com/issue_4.3/smolin.htm
“Quantum theory was not the only theory that bothered Einstein. Few people have appreciated how dissatisfied he was with his own theories of relativity. Special relativity grew out of Einstein’s insight that the laws of electromagnetism cannot depend on relative motion and that the speed of light therefore must be always the same, no matter how the source or the observer moves. Among the consequences of that theory are that energy and mass are equivalent (the now-legendary relationship E = mc2) and that time and distance are relative, not absolute. Special relativity was the result of 10 years of intellectual struggle, yet Einstein had convinced himself it was wrong within two years of publishing it.”

Has the author of the two texts (Lee Smolin) ever seen the close relation between them? Surely he has.

Pentcho Valev
pvalev@yahoo.com
brave_new_world
I am not much of a physicist. But to me the big mystery about science is that it still cannot explain how the brain creates consciousness. Sure they might know how the brain regulates it and how it may process the perceptions which are in themselves wonderful discoveries. But it still isn't certain how it creates the consciousness in the first place to regulate. This great perception of the perceptions is what lies at the heart of all spirituality. And because it is still such a mystery to science is remains in some scientific circles a taboo.

We cannot see consciousness but we know without it we wouldnt be able to see (well we could if you wanna be technical however we wouldnt be aware that we were seeing and so since there would be no sense of "I" to be aware to see how could we say we are seeing?). We cant hear consciousness but we know without it we wouldnt be able to hear. We cannot smell consciousness but we know without it we wouldnt be able to smell. We cant touch consciousness but we know without it we wouldnt be able to touch. We cannot taste consciousness yet we know without it we wouldnt be able to taste. Consciousness is in itself indefinable but we only know it is indefinable because we are conscious. Very paradoxical (and unfortunately not popular with scientists).

Consciousness/awareness is essential for any form of knowledge whatsoever. Why do some aspects of the universe (human beings)which is according to mainstream science all energy need to be aware that it exists. Never mind why we exist but aware that it exists. From one point of view we dont need to "survive" like dawkins may say consciousness is required for because if we are all energy and energy cannot be destroyed and only change form then the energy never needs to be worried about changing its form. Yet many humans fear death when they are in fact scientifically informed that they are energy.

Many people are self aware energy that denies that there is purpose to being aware. This is hard for me to accept (not that all of you uphold this position). Science cannot be without awareness/consciousness. In fact consciousness is the beginning and end of science, religion or philosophy.

How is it that unconscious atoms which form our brain can through the nerve system or whatever parts of the brain/body create living aware consciousness that is able to debate its own existence? I dont know and I am open to more scientific possibility. It is just surprising to me that science is able to launch us to outer space yet is clueless when it comes down to answering "how does the brain create a sense of self?"

Anyway here are some comments by doctor Fred Alan Wolf who is a quantum physicist who has some alternative view points on consciousness. These are clips from a debate involving four other scientists/philosophers on the debate about consciousness. It is a very good debate http://www.closertotruth.com/topics/mindbr...transcript.html and I agree with Fred all the way!

FRED: I choose "C," none of the above. We may be missing the boat here by adopting a view that one of these categories must be correct, whether empirical objectivity and physical materialism on the one hand or the rather archaic and simplistic dualistic models on the other. Possibly, there's a third choice--a choice that says that there's something beyond all materialism, beyond the physical world, out of which all reality, the whole of existence, projects. This would overwhelm traditional dualism--and I take this view not as a mystic but as a quantum physicist. I think that our most modern understanding of the physical world suggests that there may be an ineffable realm, a mystical realm, an "imaginal" realm, out of which the physical world pops into existence. Kind of like what [the German physicist and pioneer of quantum mechanics] Werner Heisenberg suggested when he brought the notion of consciousness into physics--when he said that it's the observer that creates the observed simply by the act of observation. So I answer the question of consciousness not by speculating about what it is, but by specifying what it does.

FRED: You can't even explain physics without going beyond the physical! That's the answer, and it's very clear. If we talk about quantum mechanics, we have to talk about a quantum wave function, something that is clearly not material, not substantive, yet necessarily it has to exist in order to explain the simplest physical phenomena.



FRED: I'm not sure if the degree of consciousness ever diminishes. I'm not even sure that we humans are so super-conscious ourselves. I look at an anthill and I'm amazed at how human-like these simple creatures behave. The real question is trying to define what we mean by consciousness. This is the really crucial point that scientists need to think about. How do we define consciousness? What are the models we can use to approach the question? Materialism is not going to work. Pure subjectivity [i.e., idealism, the philosophical theory that only the mental is real and the physical is an illusion] is also not going to work. But something that somehow encompasses the two might work. This synthesis is what has to be brought about. Quantum mechanics might be the place to start to look. But even quantum mechanics is not going to be the final answer.


This is the one that realy seems radical.

FRED: Well, I don't entirely disagree, bit I'll reverse it. What we're going to understand in a hundred years is possibly how consciousness creates brains! And how brains arise from the messiness of reality.

Here is a quote from John who is a leading philosopher of mind at the University of California, Berkeley.:

We don't know how to explain it. Compare consciousness to physics. We're doing pretty well in physics, even though we have some puzzling areas, like quantum mechanics. But we don't have an adequate theory of how the brain causes conscious states, and we don't have an adequate theory of how consciousness fits into the universe.


Ok I apologize for getting way off topic. So please forgive me. blush.gif
Pentcho Valev
NEWTON VERSUS EINSTEIN IN THE ROYAL SOCIETY

Some time ago the Royal Society conducted a poll that gave a conclusion more or less like "Newton is greater than Einstein":

http://www.royalsoc.ac.uk/news.asp?id=3880

This conclusion is misleading. In terms of initial principles the only difference between Newton and Einstein is that Newton regarded light as DISCONTINUOUS particles whose speed, like the speed of other particles, could only be VARIABLE (varies with the speed of the light source), whereas Einstein based his theory on the concept of light as a CONTINUOUS field and postulated that the speed of light was CONSTANT (independent of the speed of the light source). The importance of this initial difference was given by Einstein himself:

Einstein: "If the speed of light is the least bit affected by the speed of the light source, then my whole theory of relativity and theory of gravity is false."

Einstein again: "I consider it quite possible that physics cannot be based on the field concept, i.e., on continuous structures. In that case, nothing remains of my entire castle in the air, gravitation theory included, [and of] the rest of modern physics."

So Newton cannot be just greater than Einstein. Either the speed of light is independent of the speed of the light source and then Einstein has improved Newton's theory, or the speed of light does depend on the speed of the light source and then Einstein has destroyed modern physics. A new poll is necessary where the question should be: "Who was right about the speed of light?". In a normal world such problems would not be resolved in polls but in Einstein's world that is the only choice.

Pentcho Valev
pvalev@yahoo.com
Pentcho Valev
HOW FRAGILE SCIENCE IS

At first sight, Einstein's crime is a small crime. Initially he adopted the emission theory of light, c'=c+v, where c' is the speed of photons as measured by an observer, c=300000km/s is the CONSTANT speed of the photons RELATIVE TO THE LIGHT SOURCE and v is the relative speed of the source and the observer. Then he realized it would be more profitable for him to become a divine creator of miracles (time dilation, length contraction etc.) and accordingly introduced the false principle of (absolute) constancy of the speed of light, c'=c:

http://philsci-archive.pitt.edu/archive/00...3/02/Norton.pdf John Norton, "Einstein's Investigations of Galilean Covariant Electrodynamics prior to 1905"

In the end Einstein realized the false principle of (absolute) constancy of the speed of light was too dangerous and partially restored the truth by recognizing that the speed of light varied with the gravitational potential (see Chapter 22 in his "Relativity"). However his miracles killed theoretical physics (it was already half dead since entropy miracles had been ravaging for 50 years). So nowadays Einsteinians make money essentially in two ways. On one hand, they continue to destroy human rationality by teaching Einstein's miracles; on the other, they constantly "improve" Einstein's theory by camouflaging the antecedent of the miracles, the false principle of (absolute) constancy of the speed of light. Einsteinians can even go so far as to say Einstein's special relativity is wrong:

http://www.logosjournal.com/issue_4.3/smolin.htm "Quantum theory was not the only theory that bothered Einstein. Few people have appreciated how dissatisfied he was with his own theories of relativity. Special relativity grew out of Einstein's insight that the laws of electromagnetism cannot depend on relative motion and that the speed of light therefore must be always the same, no matter how the source or the observer moves. Among the consequences of that theory are that energy and mass are equivalent (the now-legendary relationship E = mc2) and that time and distance are relative, not absolute. Special relativity was the result of 10 years of intellectual struggle, yet Einstein had convinced himself it was wrong within two years of publishing it."

Scientists would not react to Einsteinians' discovery that special relativity is wrong. They know: just another original way of making money.

Pentcho Valev
pvalev@yahoo.com
undersquiggle
PAUSE! time-out, i need a few things answered.

Aren't you fighting about a mute point? you are all right about Einstein being good and bad. this is my reasoning:

Logically, one would assume that if there are two laws, that each contradict each other, one is wrong, one is right. However, there is an interesting area of physics that is called Quantum Physics. it concludes that two contradicting states can exist at the same time.

just let that sink in for a second. i mean, it is a theory that there are multiple dimensions for the multiple decisions a person may make in a day, if i am not mistaken. Dimensions are the vectors that allow these different states to exist at the same time. SO, according to the science of that which you love, can the two sides of this argument over Einsteins genius, or lack thereof, both be right at the same time, and through a greater cosmic law that we have yet to be able to manipulate, could we not eventually command which laws will play out in a given situation?

if im completely wrong and just being an R-Tard, please PM me.
RabidCat
QUOTE(undersquiggle @ Mar 6 2007, 04:12 PM) [snapback]1570823[/snapback]
PAUSE! time-out, i need a few things answered.

Aren't you fighting about a mute point? you are all right about Einstein being good and bad. this is my reasoning:

Logically, one would assume that if there are two laws, that each contradict each other, one is wrong, one is right. However, there is an interesting area of physics that is called Quantum Physics. it concludes that two contradicting states can exist at the same time.

just let that sink in for a second. i mean, it is a theory that there are multiple dimensions for the multiple decisions a person may make in a day, if i am not mistaken. Dimensions are the vectors that allow these different states to exist at the same time. SO, according to the science of that which you love, can the two sides of this argument over Einsteins genius, or lack thereof, both be right at the same time, and through a greater cosmic law that we have yet to be able to manipulate, could we not eventually command which laws will play out in a given situation?

if im completely wrong and just being an R-Tard, please PM me.

"Cosmic Laws" are in the realm of mentalism, spiritualism, or whatever you might want to call it. A Chinese sage, confronted with particle physics, stated (to paraphrase) "That's what we've been teaching for 3000 years."
The thing that hurts science is not the science itself: it is those who practice it. To equate natural function through computation is farcical, as all that can be done is to approximate, and approximation is not, by definition, entirely accurate. To state that something cannot be because of a "law" of physics is foolish, simply because science itself is constantly under revision. It would be well thought to consider that the scientific method is, in fact, the ultimate and final law of any science, and to place oneself outside that law, as many do, portends a departure to a more religious aspect, not science.
Pentcho Valev
HOW EINSTEINIANS CONTRADICT EINSTEIN

Very carefully indeed. At the conference

http://quantum.leeds.ac.uk/~sonwm/fop07/

philosopher Jeremy Butterfield of Cambridge will inform the relativity cult that the problem with signals travelling faster than light is difficult. He has just discovered that "the idea that influences propagate at most as fast as light" can be violated:

http://quantum.leeds.ac.uk/~viv/FoP07abstr...Butterfield.pdf

Philosophers' main task will be to find the best language to present the violation. Philosopher Jeremy Butterfield of Cambridge has already discovered this form of presentation:

http://talks.cam.ac.uk/talk/index/5570 : Jeremy Butterfield "Reconsidering Relativistic Causality": "I discuss the idea of relativistic causality, i.e. the requirement that causal processes (signals) can propagate only within the light-cone. After briefly locating this requirement in the philosophy of causation, my main aim is to draw philosophers' attention to the fact that it is subtle, and even problematic, in contemporary physics. For there are scenarios in which it fails."

Other presentations may be offered and a poll in the relativity cult will finally determine the best one. In any event, the world should continue to sing "Divine Einstein" enthusiastically:

http://www.haverford.edu/physics-astro/songs/divine.htm
http://www.bnl.gov/community/Tours/Einstei...s/Einsteine.jpg

Pentcho Valev
pvalev@yahoo.com
Pentcho Valev
WILL EINSTEINIANS ABANDON THE FALSE SECOND POSTULATE?

The eternal trouble in Einstein's cult: The theory of relativity is an excellent money-spinner but one based on Einstein's false second postulate - the principle of constancy of the speed of light. So Einsteinians have never stopped trying to get rid of this postulate:

http://www.worldscibooks.com/physics/4114.html :"They lead to an unexpected affirmative answer to the long-standing question of whether it is possible to construct a relativity theory without postulating the constancy of the speed of light and retaining only the first postulate of special relativity. This question was discussed in the early years following the discovery of special relativity by many physicists, including Ritz, Tolman, Kunz, Comstock and Pauli, all of whom obtained negative answers."

http://o.castera.free.fr/pdf/chronogeometrie.pdf : Jean-Marc Lévy-Leblond “De la relativité à la chronogéométrie ou: Pour en finir avec le “second postulat” et autres fossiles”: “D’autre part, nous savons aujourd’hui que l’invariance de la vitesse de la lumière est une conséquence de la nullité de la masse du photon. Mais, empiriquement, cette masse, aussi faible soit son actuelle borne supérieure expérimentale, ne peut et ne pourra jamais être considérée avec certitude comme rigoureusement nulle. Il se pourrait même que de futures mesures mettent enévidence une masse infime, mais non-nulle, du photon ; la lumière alors n’irait plus à la “vitesse de la lumière”, ou, plus précisément, la vitesse de la lumière, désormais variable, ne s’identifierait plus à la vitesse limite invariante.”

The problem is that even the most convoluted attempt to build a relativity without Einstein's false second postulate unavoidably leads to reestablishing the old Newtonian-Galilean mechanics:

http://www.chapitre.com/CHAPITRE/fr/NEUF/p..._appel=CHAPITRE : Jean Eisenstaedt, "AVANT EINSTEIN: RELATIVITE, LUMIERE, GRAVITATION": À l'université, on ânonne sans trop comprendre : « la vitesse de la lumière est indépendante de celle de sa source ». Le principe de relativité jeté aux orties, l'éther entre en scène, un mot savant dont on n'a jamais vraiment su ce qu'il recouvre : un désastre !.... Newtoniens impénitents, ces « philosophes de la nature » ont tout simplement traité la lumière comme faite de vulgaires particules matérielles : des « corpuscules lumineux ». Mais ce sont gens sérieux et ils se sont basés sur leurs Classiques, Galilée, Newton et ses Principia où déjà l'on trouve des idées intéressantes. À la fin du XVIIIe siècle, au siècle des Lumières (si bien nommé en l'occurrence !), en Angleterre, en Écosse, en Prusse et même à Paris, une véritable balistique de la lumière sous-tend silencieusement la théorie de l'émission, avatar de la théorie corpusculaire de la lumière de Newton. Lus à la lumière ( !) des théories aujourd'hui acceptées, les résultats ne sont pas minces : toute une préhistoire émerge ainsi ! Une physique des rapports entre la lumière, la relativité, la gravitation... De très nombreux tests, expériences et effets aujourd'hui bien connus, peuvent s'y lire. Il s'agit de rien moins que d'une cinématique classique (galiléo-newtonienne) de la lumière, cohérente avec le principe de relativité et donc comparable par anticipation avec la cinématique einsteinienne. Il y manque bien sûr - et ce n'est pas rien ! - l'étrange loi de composition des vitesses (qui ne s'ajoutent plus si simplement) de Lorentz et l'interprétation plus tardive de Minkowski, qu'Einstein lui-même eut bien du mal à accepter...... Les « relativités » d'Einstein, cinématique einsteinienne et théorie de la gravitation, ont la triste réputation d'être difficiles... Ne remettent-elles pas en cause des notions familières ? Leur « refonte » est d'autant plus nécessaire."

http://www.courses.fas.harvard.edu/~phys16/Textbook/ch10.pdf : p. 35:"Relativity without c....it is easy to imagine a universe where the speed of light depends on the frame of reference. Light could behave like a baseball, for example. So let's drop the speed of light postulate and see what we can say about the coordinate transformations between frames, using only the relativity postulate." p.38:"There is only one decision to be made when constructing the spacetime structure of an (empty) universe. You just have to say whether V is finite or infinite, that is, whether the universe is Lorentzian or Galilean."

Pentcho Valev
pvalev@yahoo.com
Startraveler
I'd be okay with this thread being closed. It's gotten far away from what I was talking about in the original post.
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