God states "You are free to eat from any of the trees of the garden except the tree of knowledge of good & bad."

Before Adam & Eve ate from the tree of life, how were they to know that eating from the tree was "bad?" If they didn't know the difference between right & wrong, then how would they have known that disobeying God was wrong? So, is a sin a sin, if you don't know what you're doing is wrong? Can they really be held responsible for what they did, if they were not taught the difference between right & wrong?

Anyway, this is something I always wondered about. This doesn't only relate to Christianity, but involves the question "Is a sin a sin, if you don't know what you're doing is wrong." I just used Adam & Eve as an example most people can relate too, so whether the story is fact or fiction, is really a moot point for this discussion.

Here is a clearer picture as well & where the idea orginated

Also desiring knowledge is always a good thing, never a sin

If you were placed on an island as a young child where there were no other people, no laws and no influence from any religions then I'm sure you would develop your own sense of right or wrong in your life based on survival needs. For example you would work out that you didnt need to kill 10 fish in a day just to feed yourself. If you were to chose to kill 10 fish anyway then you would probably feel some sort of guilt, or a feeling of wrong-doing.

The whole Adam & eve thing was I think just a way of forming order. The story says that if you chose to go against the 'rules' there will be consequenses. Sin, really is just an illusion, allbeit a practical one from a social point of view.

surely this depends on the knowledge you are desiring, do you wish to know how to make a new chair or the most efficient way to kill 100 puppies.

What man was to leave alone was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil . Law Making or Goverment is a other way of saying this .

Its all about Goverment .

Good wants to be the Supreem ruler in his creation , he wants to make the laws on good and evil .

Now God Knew Satan could outsmart Man and decieve man into thinking man was like a God and could make his own laws . That man Don't need the Wisdom of God to make this earth a wonderfull place . Satan has man convenced we can do it our selves and ignore the creators laws .

God Knew this was going to Happen thats why he put us on this earth with a lier and all his lieing helpers so they could show us where self goverment and our knowledge of Good and Evil lead .

God told us the Day we eat of the tree of Good and evil we would die . He Gave man 6 days to do his work . He predicts at the end of this 6 days (6000 years of mans Goverment) no flesh would be left if he don't stop it . Man would actually Govern himself to extintion and kill this whole planet with our so called goverments . So Gods letting Man show his Stuff .

But God will stop it when it gets to the Point that we would kill all flesh if it went any longer . Then God (the Son) will conquere this earth and rule on this earth as its king for a day of rest (1000 year) with a rod of Iron (strictly) he will force all men to obey God and live his way dureing this 1000 year perriod .(the earth will become a beutifull place with no diseases ,no wars , no crime , no bulls*** fake religions a wonderfull place to live for all . the earth will be a wonderfull place .


Then He wakes up the rest the Dead (all men accept the Church)

Won't most men feel some foolish that they lived their lives rebelling against Gods Laws after they see how wonderfull his laws make this world compared to the world that man and Satan Goverened ?

Will not the Satanist Feel so foolish when they finally figgure out Gods real plans for this Earth . I think most then will sign up for Gods Goverment .


The church well thats a different matter , its a small group of humans chosen through time to come out of the world they live in . and be different . Their prise is they are the Kings and priest of Tomorows world .

Its about Goverment ! the rest of it is All just crap.

One more Point

What is a Sin? A sin is a Transgression of Gods Law

Is it a Sin if you Don't Know its a Sin ? YES

We are all Sinners = we all break Gods Laws Only one Man has lived a sin less life


There are some that do relize what a sin is and have repented of their sins . or made up their mind to obey Gods laws . some do good at it some make fools of themself .

most that think they repent don't even know what a sin is

Not true if you're talking about Jesus. Did he not lust after Mary Magdalin?

Concider that Jesus was goverened by 1 specific 'god', and that the rules are different depending on which god you follow. Therefore he is likely to have sinned from the point of view of other religions.

Also concider other people as well - like Mother Theresa, various saints etc.

Blog, where did you get that Jesus lusted after Mary Magdalen? Jesus was sinless, that is why His death is THE worthy sacrifice for your sin, because He had no sin of His own to pay for.

Other people, no matter how kind, how nice, are still sinners, the 10 Commandments were mainly intended to point out that there is no way we can't sin. We have all failed to meet at least one of the Commandments, because God looks at the heart, not just the actions.

One of the big points I get out of the Adam and Eve story is that mankind will always go against God (sin). In the beginning, God only gave one rule - don't eat from this particular tree. One rule. One tiny, little rule - don't eat that particular fruit. Eat any other fruit, just not that one. And what do Adam and Eve do? They go and eat that fruit. GIven the choice between obeying God and disobeying God, mankind will inevitably and eventually choose to disobey.

That's the point that stands out when I read the text. Since I don't believe an actual Adam and Eve, as depicted in Genesis, ever actually lived, I can't say as I go for the original post's line of reasoning, except perhaps in the most distanced manner. But that's just me.

- PA

Gen 2:
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

Just from these verses it is apparent that Adam and Eve had more knowledge than what is made obvious in the story:

1. They understood God when He spoke to them.

2. He did not explain death to them, but they seemed to know what it was.

3. They understood instructions.

That Adam and Eve recognized when God was moving in the Garden, that they knew they had very little time to cover themselves and hide, indicates that God's presence in the Garden was not rare and may have been a regular event. This indicates several things, in my opinion:

1. The general idea that all of this happened in a matter of days after the 6 days of Creation is an incorrect assumption. Adam named all the animals, that took time.

2. Adam and Eve received more knowledge from God than the instructions about the tree, it's just that that is the only information important to the story.

3. Adam and Eve's sin was disobeying a command, but they quickly showed it was their nature, by hiding, (they knew to hide), covering themselves (they felt shame for who they were, and reflected it by hiding their physical presence), and by trying to shift the blame (Adam to Eve, Eve to the Serpent)

I have always wondered how the rest of the story would have gone if:

a. Adam had stopped Eve from eating the fruit

b. Adam had refused to eat the fruit

c. Adam and Eve had humbled themselves and confessed to God that they had disobeyed.

Actually he did sin:

He commited assault, he was prejudiced, he conspired to commit theft, he was gluttonous, he condoned slavery.




If I was surrounded by a pack of Rabid puppies, i'd want to know the most efficient way to kill them

I have always held the stories of the Book of Genesis in the highest regard, for those that take the tales literally and use them as their main argument against the "theory" of evolution fail to see that the beginning of the book is the story and proof of it.Was it wrong for "adam" to eat the fruit from the forbidden tree? Absolutely not, for this is a metaphor for man's gaining self awareness.

Original sin, which im assuming you are referring to when you say no one is without sin, is not in the bible. It was invented by a roman emperor who lead a lascivious life, then felt immense guilt after he converted to christianity. A baby has done nothing wrong, so people who think the unbaptised are going to hell are just buying into a footnote that someone else decided to add to the main story.

The devil is also not in the old testament, so any evidence or mention of him causing adam and eve to sin is just as baseless.

And with god being so all powerful and all knowing, do you really think he didnt expect or want Adam and Eve to eat of the fruit? Dont you think it was all part of the plan? What good is free will, if there is no temptation to exercise it against? God already had his angels, who had to blindly follow his word. But he wanted something more; the type of adoration and love that you can only get from someone when they know that they don't HAVE to do it, but choose to do it anyway. That means more than blind loyalty and devotion.

you said, "Can they really be held responsible for what they did, if they were not taught the difference between right and wrong?" Where do you get the idea that they didn't know right from wrong? Obeying God is right. Not obeying God is wrong. It's as simple as that. So, your other question is "Is a sin a sin, if you don't know what you're doing is wrong?" That question does not even apply to Adam and Eve. They knew that disobeying God was wrong. Here is the definition of sin according to the Bible: each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. Then after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full grown, gives birth to death. So, a person who knows there is a right and there is wrong is not in sin at that point. A person is sinning when he/she chooses to participate in any way in the wrong thing, whether it be much or little! I hope I have helped you.

I disagree, if God told you to kill a child then disobeying it would not be wrong, if god tries to keep you from gaining knowledge then disobeying it would not be wrong.

What would you consider a fake religion?

Would a religion with more than one god be a fake religion in your eyes? Didn't you say, even the Bible says that Satan is the god of this world?

Please explain or refrain from making such sweeping statements.



Do you rest on the Sabbath Day? If so which day is the Sabbath Day for you?

I remember this coming up in Catholic School. The nun told us that if we are unknowing of the act of sin being a sin, as in doing something wrong either through ignorance or accident, it is not a technical sin. However, not coming to learn about Jesus and his teachings is a sin, so we must learn right from wrong so that we know not to sin on purpose or with intent to do wrong.

It still makes no sense because of the whole living on an island argument.....

To make it as simple as possible, and try and imagine one would want everyone to know about Jesus and Christianity, how can we assume that everyone has had the opportunity to choose?

fake religion = about 99.9 % of all religion

its any religion not coming from God Almost all religion comes from Satan and his demons .
I beleave 99% of christianity is from Satan ,100%of Islam,100% of hinduism,100%of paganism,100% of budism ,100% of athism .Even judism even though God handed it too their forefathers is only the circumcission of the flesh they never got it in the heart . Boy old Satan has been a Busy Guy .


The real sabbath = Friday dusk to Saturday dusk the seventh day . Its a sign of real men of God . I don't even consider sunday keeping churches as from God would not in the slightest chance be from God. I do though beleave alot of sincere people are inside of them. And Even most sabbath Keepers Don't have it .


Its about time i Told you the real truth as i See it . ONLY real men of God are being judged Now . Only them men and woman that really had the Real Holy Spirit are being judged now . Judgement begins at the house of God . Its the opposite of what almost every religion teaches .

The real truth is great resposibility . the real truth is dangerous knowledge .

i beleave maybe 50% of the real men of God get lost in this last generation before Christ return . Its dangerous stuff i myself beleave i found the real church and if i don't change before my death i'll be lost . Why i Don't Change ? you need incoragement you need to forget the troubles of this world . You need to put effort into it . Being a man of God is the ultiment test . You ever watch movies on military officers trained ? the same thing but on a much higher level .

He did say his burden was light but i guess that must be when you get it going right . I had it right for a few years after Baptism watched almost every prayer for a few years get answered shockingly sometimes . seen alot of spiritual action got worn down .

But here i Am today the feast of Trumpets I stayed Home .Don't know if i'll make it or Not .

some of you Satanist might even stand more of a Chance ,bet you will feel some silly though when you See Christ someday and see How small satan will be compared to When Christ Time Comes around.
Do i have great sins probly no worse then the Majority on here , its just i know i found the needle in the haystack and not useing it to my potential .


A Christian can not quench the Spirit or tell it to shut up .if they do till death they have earned a death sentence. they must follow it too good works they must keep his commands.

Ahh, so religions that are based on peace and love, and call first and foremost for self sacrafice for the good of others are created by Satan? Interesting opion, you poor, ignorant sob.

Peace and Love ? Which one ? Where ? I missed it maybe


Satan will do any thing to decieve men he will even teach them to keep 9 commands of God if can just have them to continue to break 1

And who is this Satan and what is/are his Old testament origins?

There goes the freewill argument right out the window!

I actually agree with something you have written!

Adam and Eve were told what not to do by God and they did it. Where is the argument that they didn't know right from wrong. They sinned.

If a child was brought up in a society or even say the wild where disobeying your parents or guardians was never talked about, & their parents/guardians stated don't eat those berries, the child may not realize what he/she is doing is wrong.

From our standpoint it is easy to say, well they disobeyed God & it says its a sin in the Bible to do that (however, only "after" the fact does it say that). But from their standpoint, were they ever taught the consequences or that it was even wrong? Lets go back to the child being brought up in the wild concept. What if you try to introduce him/her into a "civilized" family? The child will not know that disobeying his/her guardians would be wrong. At least until the child is taught that disobedience is wrong. Adam & Eve were "innocent" & they only realized what they did was wrong after they ate from the "tree of knowledge." Then they were taught right from wrong. Anyway, hope that makes some sense & its just an idea, not to be considered an axiom.

Disobeying an Unethical order is a good thing

Where is your argument that they knew right from wrong before eating of that tree?

You probably did, since peace and love are foreign to the Bible, which teaches instead intolerance, murder, rape and other wholesome morals, not like that sinful peace and love and compassion stuff that those "Satanic " religions teach, no sir

So at what point in the Bible does God say to commit murder? Or rape? Or preach intolerence? Yes, those things were in the Bible, though they had nothing to do with God and Christ. ALL of what Christ preached was peace, love, and forgiveness. And in most of the passages dealing directly with God, he is described as a benevolent Entity. Even in Revelation, the most horrific, violent book in the Bible, after Satan has brought the earth to it's knees, Christ defeats him and proceeds to rebuild us, our society, and our world. The arrogance some of you have is unfathomable, to have never studied the book and yet condemn it? You forget that there are scholars and disciples on this forum, and we will not let blind ignorance go unchecked.

Wrong, in the old testament, we get passages that show God commanding/condoning the murders and the rapes and in the new testament we have christ practicing intolerance and prejudice, we have him condoning slavery and calling for violence.

Sorry but i've read the bible, and I don't see the peace and love you claim, I do see the violence and the hate

You obviously have no idea who you are arguing with. I can forgive your arrogance and your ignorance, but I cannot forgive lies. You mention these supposed Biblical passages, why don't you, almighty one, tell me, book and verse, where they are? Go ahead. I'm not for making enemies, but when one does not respect my beliefs, they have meandered into territory that they DO NOT want to be in.

How many do you want?

Here's a few I'll give more if you'd like

9:6 Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.

12:11 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun.

21:17 And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.

13:16 Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished.

12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

1 Timothy 6:1-3 "Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honor, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed. And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort. If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;"

6:5 Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ

51:22 With thee also will I break in pieces man and woman; and with thee will I break in pieces old and young; and with thee will I break in pieces the young man and the maid;
12:14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.

21:10 When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive,

21:11 And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife;

21:12 Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house, and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails;

21:13 And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife.

14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

It was a setup. If god is all powerful and all knowing, how could he NOT know what was going to happen when creating Adam and Eve.

Fine Avinash, you proved that 2,000 years ago some guy wrote in a book what he supposedly heard God say. Good for you!

My point isn't on the validity of the Bible with regards to whether it is actually the word of god or not (persoanlly I think it is just a book of myths).

However a great deal of people follow that book as some source of morality, and regard all other beliefs as satanic and immoral and those who do not beleive as they do are destined for eternal torture in hell, my point was to show that the passages in the Bible speak of a god who commits and condones atrocities on the scale of some of the worst dictators and regimes in history and whose supposed son doesn't condone one of the worst institutions in human history (Slavery) and in fact promotes its continuation, I find it reprehensible that people would claim this book fosters peace and love and morality and is the only path to salvation, when even a cursory glance of its passages shows that to be false.

Heh heh, and what religion, dare I ask, do you follow? Hmm, let me guess, Hinduism?

And I don't go around telling people they'll burn in hell for not following it either

Nor do I, sir. In fact, I don't even believe that there is such a thing as hell. I believe that the entire concept was created by the Catholic Church. I even believe in reincarnation-to an extent- though I would never follow a religion that the beautiful thing called life is the embodiment of imprisonment and suffering.

Ah and that's your right to do so, in fact I think you'd probably find interpretations of Hindusim which beleive as you do on that issue (one thing I love about Hinduism is that there are tons of different interpretations, each valid in their own way)

Ah, the same for Christianity, you just have to interpret the Bible in a different manner. Why do you think there are so many denominations of my religion, hmm? There are many who are not, as you would say, "traditional".

Read Enoch 2. They DID know the difference between good and bad because God Himself told them along with the explanation of their free will and that from this God wouldknow if their race (once a second kind of angel with immortality) would show love or abhorrance towards God our Father. It wasn't the sin itself but the ignorance that offended our Father and through this they inherited mortality and where expelled to the Earth from whence they came.

I'm certain there are differences, but the core refrain tends to be the same for the most part, you must follow Christ and the Bible in order to be saved.

Doesn't Hinduism have a set of core beliefs? Isn't it necessary to have a belief in Shiva?

Nope, some don't worship Shiva, some don't worship Vishnu, some don't believe God has a form, or that there is even an actual single diety period (rather that we all merge into some sort of universal conciousness, and some of the older beliefs from ancient times even have a polytheistic beleif structure), as far as core concepts go Karma, Dharma and reincarnation, etc.

Tell me, as an extension of Karma, is destiny a part of your belief system?

Actually Karma is more that we create our own destiny (or at least a part of it), but even that concept is limited to our linear peception (since the soul transcends time and space the concept of destiny only applies to the bodies we occupy)

So are you saying that, personally, you do not believe in destiny?

Well the concept of destiny is that there are events that are set in stone and can never be changed, but if time and space are merely an illusion of this existence, then once you step outside, what is the difference between "Past Present and Future"? None from the point of view of the soul, and since each person has choices they can make at any one instant of existance (free will), then any instant can be shifted and changed, and if you change an instant, when looking at existence from a linear point of view, you change every successive instant in that chain, then even so-called destiny can be changed, depending on our actions.

That, in a manner of speaking, is what I believe, but what do you mean when you say that time and space are merely an illusion?

Ah, faced with a complex question about his beliefs, Avinash comes up short and walks away. And here I thought I had found an equal in religious debate. Sigh.

Well think of it this way, space and time are basically constructs of our linear existence, think about it, space hinges on particle interaction within the movement of time, but if no living thing existed in this universe, then that would not exist, so basically for the soul it transcends the universe and those concepts.




Who walked away?

Toba Super-eruption

According to the Toba catastrophe theory, modern human evolution was affected by a recent, large volcanic event. The theory was proposed by Stanley H. Ambrose of the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign.[1][2]

Within the last three to five million years, after human and other ape lineages diverged from the hominid stem-line, the human line produced a variety of human species. According to the Toba catastrophe theory, a massive volcanic eruption changed the course of human history by severely reducing the human population.

Around 70–75,000 years ago the Toba caldera in Indonesia erupted with an energy release equivalent to about one gigaton of TNT, three thousand times greater than that of Mount St. Helens. According to Ambrose, this led to a decrease in average global temperatures by 3 to 3.5 degrees Celsius for several years. This massive environmental change is believed to have created population bottlenecks in the various species that existed at the time; this in turn accelerated differentiation of the isolated human populations, eventually leading to the extinction of all the other human species except for the branch that became modern humans.

Some geological evidence and computed models support the plausibility of the Toba catastrophe theory, and genetic evidence suggests that all humans alive today, despite their apparent variety, are descended from a very small population, perhaps between 1,000 and 10,000 individuals. Using the average rates of genetic mutation, some geneticists have estimated that this population lived at a time coinciding with the Toba event (see also Mitochondrial Eve and Y-chromosomal Adam).

According to this theory, humans once again fanned out from Africa after Toba when the climate and other factors permitted. They migrated first to Indochina and Australia, and later to the Fertile Crescent and the Middle East. Migration routes to Asia created population centers in Uzbekistan, Afghanistan, and India. Differences in skin color appeared as a result of varied melanin levels as local adaptations to varying ultraviolet intensities. Europe became populated by migrants from the Caspian Sea region when the last ice age ended and Europe became more hospitable.

The true origin of the "Garden of Eden" Myth?