Yeah, this is pretty long, and I'm very sorry.

So, all over this site there are people who claim that they are psychic. Whether or not they actually believe they are is a different matter, but I’ve been thinking about this. What exactly is Psychic?

Are we really supposed to believe that there are people out there who can tell you about your entire life just by making eye contact with you? No, I think that would be naïve and to be honest, just a little bit ridiculous.

I’m an out and out skeptic, and I’m also not ashamed to admit that I have used fraudulent psychic skills in my life, either as part of my career as a magician, or to get a bit of extra cash when I’ve not been able to cover the rent.

Now, speak to scientists and skeptics about psychic powers and they will chatter away at you about cold reading and subconscious body movements. A very popular way to appear psychic is to use cold reading on your client (Or victim) in order to piece together relevant pieces of information on the person. This is widely accepted by many to be how 99% of psychics work.

But then you have the people who genuinely believe that they ARE psychic. The people who have dreams about events which then come true, the people who are convinced that they KNEW their friend was in trouble so they phoned them, the people who go up to you on the street and tell you that you are troubled and that “Nancy says Hi” (Whoever Nancy is)

These people are not cynical, greedy sods who want your money. These people will swear on their lives that they are psychic. And that’s fine, but look into these cases and often it becomes clear that these people are simply using their own form of cold reading and empathy to pick up on what’s going on around them.

We all have the power to tell when someone is upset, and we all sometimes look at our closest friends and ask them what’s wrong, even though they seem fine to other people. We could call this psychic.

You can go to your local bookshop right now and buy countless books on Tarot cards and palmistry and contacting the dead, and ok, you might get something out of it (Apart from a lighter bank balance) Or you could go into the same bookshop and pick up some books about body language and psychology, even (God help you) Neuro-linguistic-programming, and you will almost certainly learn enough about human behaviour to APPEAR psychic.

Now, here is my suggestion (and I’m ready for the backlash) but maybe if everyone did this instead of dedicating hours of study to a set of oversized playing cards, then perhaps we could all become a little bit psychic? Maybe we could just stop with the idea that some people have the ability to do the scientifically impossible and just focus more on knowing our own kind? Who says that mind reading has to be something paranormal?

you have psychic senses.. they lay in your third eye (pineal gland..), your ears (mind reading essentialy), your stomach (empathy.. feelings, emotions, sensations..) and they all are used on different levels of people. some naturaly understand, others choose to shine light on their ignorance. have u never had a feeling about not going somewhere... but u did and somethin bad happened? so then you say mere coincidence. do you believe in universal consciousness? we all are connected and created by a divine force. or are you still of lower wisdom and havent grasped the reality in your life, still fearing life, when there is nothing to fear. i respect your views, theyre just lacking of deep thought and understanding of life. psychic senses are natural, maybe it's labeled wrong for the people who live by labels.

peace
Liz

The psychic "forces" come from an area of the brain that hasn't been quite investigated yet. Therefore its consider "paranormal" because ...ok I JUST forgot what I was gonna say.....MAIN thing is that everything that doesn't have a scientific explanation is paranormal. I don't think someone moving something with her/his mind has a scientific explanation yet, therefore is paranormal(nor someone receiving messages from ghosts). And btw I'm talking about REAL psychics, not Miss Cleo

I most cases the "paranormal" phenomena reported involve people who seem to have an odd physiological profile. Either that be altered brain chemistry, a syndrome, a physical malformation or something out of the norm its very evident that under normal conditions we are unable to demonstrate any abilities that fall under the ESP category consistently and with any degree of intensity that is worthwhile. Maybe we can be trained to further our existing physical attributes like some Tibetan monks or indian Guru, but its unlikely we can start moving things with our mind and communicate non verbally without the necessary biological changes to accomodate them.

I don't think psychic is paranormal, to me it's just another word for intuiation. Something we all have, something that some people are better with than others...Being psychic has nothing to do with communicating with spirits....

By definition, psychic experiences are only classified as paranormal when they defy logical scientific explanation.

All communication (such as between the psychic and the subject) is a feedback loop based on observation and interpretation of responses. Therefore, results that could be achieved by Cold reading, body language observation, intuition et al are classified as normal.

In short - Most of us have the ability to be empathic, to a quite surprising degree. On occasion I've been accused of Mind Reading myself. Then again, I have spent a number of years casually researching cold reading, body language, Hellstromism, Kinesics, Hypnosis and even the "dreaded" NLP.

However - predicting a significant future event correctly, that the psychic has no influence over - In my books, that's Paranormal...

Psychics have paranormal senses.

without having read it, it hits on the idea of super-normal that the guy with the 1 million dollar prize has created...I'll find some more details later, but I love the concept that ppl are offered 1 mil to produce paranormal effects, and if they merely produce "supernormal" ones, they lose. I don't know, just sounds a little rigged. fyi, I'm 99% sure I got that from "entangled minds" by dean radin, a parapsychologist who's mostly into lab experiments and meta-analysis of them.

Well, Roxie, you have a point. I believe that everyone is psychic because they are more open minded than others. People who are closed minded don't understand things that are out of the "norm", (whatever normal is).

that's called the sheep-goat effect typically

Taking into consideration the above Roxie as well as your comment 1% of the world’s population....



is equal to 65,474.870.51 individuals, divide that by 5 continents (North America, South America, Eurasia, Africa and Australia) it comes to 13,094974.102 individuals (there are at least 129 countries in the world with smaller populations in respect to the last number).



Under the circumstances, not being ashamed of the fact that your admitting to having committed a crime (sounds like you’re at felony status) does not sound very noble

65+ million people Roxie is actually a larger population than that of most countries in the world.....

Any thoughts?

Bio-Mage states.....


A person (Roxie) is engaged in committing a crime and this is your response?? Perhaps the odd physiological profile, which should be examined, is in relation to sociopath personality disorder!!! Yes we all make mistakes Bio-Mage, but this mistake is clearly related to a major bias.......

Any thoughts?

First we have to design what paranormal and normal are.

Paranormal simply means above the normal and normal means common. Psychic abilities if they exist are not normal abilities and go beyond that of normal human perception, thus it is a paranormal phenomenon.

In conclusion yes psychics are considered paranormal because they do thing that go beyond normal in everyone else.

Wow, I disappear for a few weeks and I become a criminal? lol Triad, at least I admit to what I do, there are thousands of people out there *cough* Silvia Brown, Derek Acorah, Uri Gellar *cough* Who will quite happily have the World believe spoon bending is paranormal activity when all that is really happening is they are sneakily giving the spoon a good bend when the audience are looking elswhere.

Anyway, Enough of defending myself, I didn't start this to begin a debate on my morals.

The idea that Paranormal is something unexplained by science is a good one, but how about the human brain? Scientists don't fully understand how that works, but I don't think many people would consider it to be a paranormal phenomenon. But then I suppose if they did, it would prove my idea that everyone has paranormal skills...

I honestly dont believe in psychics..I believe in the power that exsit telepathy,empathy,precognition, etc to me saying that ur psychic is like puting ur self above another person or in genaral a people. there r a few people that can look at u and see things that have not yet come to pass. that happened to my grandmother..I wont say what she told her because I was't there. I will say that every thing acording to my grandmother the woman said has come true exsept one.. the way she sould die, my grandmother has avoided it.

Ya, read about this guy - and found he'll never give the 1 million away. Even by two of his friends who admitted that a couple of people did step up to the bat and delievered - he stormed out of the room crying fruad - when there was none.

J -

yes it's on the internet - just have to look.

Gee Roxie like let me just say you admitted to committing a crime and duh, I was just pointing out that. Really, it is a *cough* felony to claim you are a mystic, when in fact you are not (last time I checked). There is actually a reason for that Roxie, this being that the courts do acknowledge the existence of the paranormal, because essentially, while people have not actually gone to jail as a result of psychics, they have ended up convicted as a result of evidence, police have secured from talking to psychics. By the way, you stated that you did in fact commit fraud, so yes; you did begin the debate on your morals.

Personally, I feel there is a way for you to make your rent, without committing a felony, given of course; the felony you are involved in involves your phone.

Sincerely Roxie if you are having trouble making rent perhaps being better educated makes sense.

Any thoughts?

I also think telepathy is the most common, and that those who can grab random snatches of information often play it up to be far more than it is, even to the point of attemtping to predict the future.

Psychic events revealing the unfolding of future events do happen that are quite specific in nature, but these occurences are virtually always spontaneous and never arise upon demand. The outcome can also be changed and is not set in stone. Perhaps in these instances the group consciouness knows a series of choices that individuals and groups have made or likely will make and the events are the logical outcomes of these desicions that are projected into images that some individuals tap into.

Bella-Angelique, could you call this a strong sense of intuition though? Or coincidence?

This is my point, what someone can see as psychic, another can see as merely coincidence, we have no hard evidence that psychic skills exsist, so how can you really define something which is technically not real? surely it's open to inturpretation? (And before someone posts up here reams of "evidence" I simply mean that there is no Worldwide accepted hard proof of psychic skills agreed on by scientists)



Yes, plenty, but none I can place on here without getting thrown out Anyway, this topic is about defining psychic skills. If someone beleives that you are psychic, and they have no proof otherwise, surely it makes you psychic?

Something Derren Brown said (I can't remember it exactly)

"I convinced an entire room of people that I was invisible, and they couldn't see me, so if everyone around me was absolutly certain that I was invisible, does it make me invisible? i think it probably does."

A short history of my family before I get to the point. My great aunt was a licensed fortune teller using a regular deck of playing cards (in other words fortune telling the gypsy way), my grandmother saw many spirits and in the case of her dead brother actually conversed with one. My mother was fascinated with spirits, seances and ouija boards (my first seance was at age 12 with grandmother and mother ). So a normal family upbringing I didn't have, lol. I myself read tarot occasionally (but I am nowhere near an expert, it's for myself and friends basically).

Now here is my take on this subject. We all have the "ability" for psychic powers, but like anything else (muscles, etc) it has to be exercised to be used correctly or with any authority. And some people are bound to be more talented in that area, after all we are not all olympic runners are we? For a so-called psychic to tell you, that they can see your future and tell you exactly what will happen, hogwash. What can be told is a future possibility. The future has not happened yet, so how can anyone tell you exactly what is going to happen? Just by the act of telling you, they have changed that future, because now you have more "knowledge". We have choices, by a reading telling you of a future possibility, you are given more "knowledge" to make a good and/or correct decision, thereby CHANGING the future so to speak. Though that is not a really good choice of words as the future is fluid and not set as the past is.

Oh and just a short funny little antidote about my great aunt and fortune telling. My grandmother loved to tell the story of one of her fortunes. My great aunt Eleanor told my grandma to be careful because she could have an accident. My grandma laughed and said ok, right then the chair she was sitting in broke and as she went down her chin hit the table edge and knocked her out cold. When she came too, Eleanor was leaning over her shaking her finger and saying, "See, I told you so. You should listen to me!". lol No real harm happened just a funny story to tell the kids over the years.

Since I know it is real it is quite easy for me to postulate hypothesis on it.

Example - I dreamed that my stepfather who at that time lived in Arizona pulled up outside of our house at night and came in though the backdoor wearing a hideous brown suit with a yellow shirt, and he had grown a beard and long sideburns.

I told my mother and she said it would be impossible, especially since he had no key and the doors are kept locked.

But two nights later int he middle of the night he woke he up switching the light on in her bedroom looking exactly as I had described. She asked how he had gotten in and he told her he tried the doorknob after he knocked the first time and it was unlocked.

So you see, to you I am likely just telling a tale and it makes no difference to you and proves nothing to you. I understand that. I really do not try to prove what cannot be proven to people unless they experience it themselves. I would rather leave that to scientists and techies to gather evidence of proof for those who have never had any sort of experience.

Often when I post things they are more for those who already know without a doubt that things such as psychic events and spirits exist. It is natural and logical for us to want to know more about what it is all about, how these things work and happen.

Trying to convince people like myself of their non-existence is as useless as trying to convince us that we ourselves do not exist and we only think we exist because of delusion or hallucination.

I do not think anything can get much more specific than knowing the exact amount of money in a strangers back account. That happened to me once and almost caused me some trouble as of course it was assumed that telepathy is impossible so for some obscure and irratational reason I must have known I would run into this person and had previously broken into their home without them ever knowing just to see the amount written into their checkbook that week.

The problem with proof is that it is all totally random, as random as lightening strikes as far as I am aware of. To stand in a field and demand lighteing hit a tree to prove it exists is about the same to me as demanding telepathy or seeing the future unfold upon demand.

However since lightening can be reproduced artificially I feel confident that someday in the future science will be able to produce these events actificially to a certain extent, just as they have other actions of the human mind and body.

Roxie states



Sounds like perhaps you are upset about my response, but without suggesting it outright....the topic may be defining psi skills, but the reality is your definition has placed you in a situation I feel is inappropriate (for you). I am telling you it is wrong for you to claim you are something you are not, that you think psi does not exist is just an
Opinion. The reality of the situation is (by definition); you can run into a judge, which has tried a case, involving a psychic, who provided evidence which was verified as accurate.

I am not expressing concern over Derren Brown, but I am with respect to "Roxie," and as is apparent, you could have responded in another way. Roxie, calling me Psychic is an understatement and fact of the matter is, despite our differences, I am prepared to acknowledge the fact, that I feel it is in your best interest to not involve yourself
In the paranormal unless you are for real.

Any thoughts?

I do enjoy our differences Triad, they force me to use my brain.

I do agree with you in principle, but as a magician it is a part of my job description to deceive people. People who have (in the past, this is not a recent thing) COme to me for Psychic readings have been aware that I am a magician. I do not expect them to believe that when I find a chosen playing card from a deck that I used real magic or psychic abilities. If that is what they believe, then that is up to them.

Likewise, using Tarot cards and palmistry in my work, and yes, as a fraudulent psychic, It is up to each individual to decisde whether they want to believe me or not. I would certainly never use the position one is put in as a "psychic" to cause distress to anyone. The readings I did were primarily based on the Barnum effect. (A series of statements which seem to apply to everyone, but which people believe only apply to them)

Like every other fraudulent psychic out there, my readings were intentionally vague, meaning that my customer was able to select the information which they wanted to hear. This is something which everyone does on a daily basis. We filter out things which do not fit in with our beliefs. If someone goes to a "Real" psychic (Though I believe you would be unable to tell the difference) They will dismiss the incorrect information, and forget it in favour of the bits which the psychic got right.

Now, if someone is unable to tell the difference between a fake and the so called "real deal" what is the harm? If I am able to send someone away from me with a sense of comfort and inspire them to make changes needed to make them happier in their lives, then surely the way in which I did this becomes unimportant?

Why should psychic be paranormal?

Well because psychic power is not normal and in my opinion non existent. Paranormal simply means above or beyond what is considered normal. Now let's say psychics are real not everyone is a psychic. This still would be considered paranormal because only a small fraction have this ability. Thus this ability is not normal.



Because your deliberatly misleading people and taking their money for it. Even if you think you are helping your still commiting fraud by telling them your the real deal in the first place. There are other ways to get people to change their lives w/o deliberatly misleading them for profit. Even if the person feels satisfied or inspired they were still mislead and anyone who misleads people this way is 'exploiting' their beleif in psychics and makes a quick buck is a fraud and should be ashamed of them selves.

Even if you think you are doing good by misleading people the fact is they still got scammed. No matter the reason or whether or not people are satisfied they still got scammed.

Paranormals have access to a range of additional extra senses that goes beyond the normal boundaries of human five senses.

Roxie as I hope I made clear it was not really my intention to offend (though clearly I was trying to get you attention by being harsh), but to bring to your attention potential hazards in relation to your mind set and how you are applying it to your means of financial support and survival.

Most people to visit or talk to psychics really do so for entertainment purposes but there are those (and it does come up fairly regularly) who for lack of a better term are desperate.

The potential harms comes into play when you run into situations with the latter type of individuals, my experiences, has taught me that in such cases, while they do in fact select the information they wanted to hear. You are still subject to there blame if things do not work out the way they thought you communicated. People who cannot tell the difference between a fake and the real deal in relation to psi, often have had problems making such distinctions in relation to same with respect to many other Vocations. as well consider potential problems with those who cannot separate reality (the real deal) from fantasy (the fake) with respect to clinical matters.

Any thoughts?

PS: I do apologize for being harsh with you but I hope you do understand that in relation
to my experiences with regards to this matter……

No worries Triad

You talk of people being unable to distinguish the real deal from the fake, and the harm it may cause, but as my belief is that all psychics are fake anyway, then I fail to see any real harm done. From my point of view, it can cause more damage to go to a psychic who is not aware, or who does not care about the state of mind of the client. As I never intended for my clients to discover that I was a Fraud, they would quite happily go away with the belief that I was psychic, and If what they heard (And I feel that is whats important here, what I say and what the client heard are two very different things ) did not help them, then they just believed that I wasn't a very good psychic. If what they heard was helpful, then I have assisted someone to make the correct choice. Either way, no harm done.

The people who would come to me for readings would typically want assistance on whether or not they should take a new job, or why they were unable to find a partner, more often than not, people came to me just wanting to know "whatever really" (That is actually what was said to me on more than one occasion!) Now, as these dilemas require nothing more than a common sense answer it seems to be unimportant as to how that answer is presented.

I would like to point out that if anyone came to me with a serious dilema, I would simply offer the contact details of a relevant helpline, and give the client some common sense advice about the answer needing to come from the client themselves.

This does actually bring me back to my first question. I use common sense and well known skills to give the impression of being psychic, If it looks pyschic and acts psychic, then surely it IS psychic? just with no paranormal skils involved?

In relation to my experiences Roxie they do involve serious dilemmas and subsequent to those events, I really do not want to get into details. While I can respect that you feel the way you do, I do feel otherwise. Not all mystics are fake and in relation to our past conversations, this in no different a way as saying, not all police, doctors, lawyers, judges, mechanics, priest, ect...are corrupt. It sounds like you are an intelligent person and are capable of using good judgment but being psychic goes beyond the ability of understanding or expressing generalizations.

Any thoughts?

the future is as set as the past -- unalterable --
living once -- dying twice --
equal values of a disharmonic balance

The following is a script I use in one of my current working magic performances. It always recieves an amazing response from the audience, and even though I tell them I'm not psychic these days, many people CHOOSE to ignore that fact, and beleive that I am psychic, and just modest about it.

Tarot cards are centuries old, there is even evidence to suggest they were used in Ancient Egypt, and the Egyptians, as I’m sure you’ll agree, are known to have been incredibly spiritual. Have you ever had a Tarot reading?

It’s an interesting thing, the role of a psychic, people go to them for reassurance, but sometimes someone can give us that reassurance without us having to go to a darkened room filled with scented candles. Actually, you don’t even need a deck of Tarot cards, playing cards will do.

Take the top card, You see? This suggests that your heart rules your head, it can be worth remembering that naivety can sometimes rule our decisions, and that is not necessarily a good thing. Please don’t view everything which happens to you as bad luck, we often cannot see the whole path for the overhanging branches in our way. You probably just need to turn a corner for all to become clear. That bit of bad luck? It will more than likely turn out to your advantage.

Take the next card. Oh, I see. You sometimes feel that your dreams and goals are unrealistic, you may have lost faith with others - and yourself, your experiences tell you that it can be unwise to be too honest when revealing yourself to others, but let me remind you that by hiding behind walls and barriers, you only serve to distance yourself from those who care for you. You’ve had doubts in the last year, you worry that you’ve made the wrong choices, done the wrong thing? This has made you a stronger person, so stop worrying about this so much, the past is the past for a reason.

Now, one more card. This tells me that you need to be more honest with yourself about your weaknesses, but more importantly about your strengths, use this insight to realise your potential. Most important of all though, remember to think of yourself more, you don’t always do that enough.


Now, this script is based on the barnum effect, it's just the storyline for a magic trick, and is used in a lighthearted manner. Yet the people I do this with come away from the expereince feeling understood, and comforted, and as though I have some kind of deep ability to read them as individuals. Nevermind the fact that I use this script twice a week every week of the year.

So, I suppose it depends on the circumstances, but psychic CAN be just a series of generalised statements. What makes it seem real is Showmanship. And I beleive that is what a psychic is, a good showman (or show-woman) People want to feel understood and special, and I do that just as well as anyone claiming true psychic abilities.

If Roxie I we to come to you and you would provide me with such a reading I would be polite but I would not give to a tip nonetheless it sounds like what you are doing is harmless. True psychics are capable of being more specific and as a far as the Tarot in respect to understand how it relates to individuals, one needs to develop a better understanding of the Kabbalah and Egyptian system of belief (in relation to death
and developing awareness) to fully comprehend its potential.

What you commonly observe in relation to understanding the Tarot is just as you
claim (a parlor game) but it is way more complicated than that

Any thoughts?

I have a thought.
There is no such thing as a psychic.
Doubt me?
Prove it then.....because no one has been able to.
Its fake gibberish. Period.

SwampGator how would you like me to prove it???

Any thoughts?

Triad, If you can prove without a doubt, and with the agreement of science that psychic is real, then I will never critisize the psychic industry again.

But as SwampGator correctly says, this has never been done, because lets face it, if it had, then we would have all heard. It would be a major breakthrough.

Roxie when exactly was the first submarine used?



My point being, that if a breakthrough occurs in relation to something, being understood, that it becomes common knowledge depends on many issues. That you suggest paranormal events are not a part of recorded history is also incorrect and it is part of day to day life, it is commonly known as religion. But for the sake of more practical terms there are more than several references in mainstream science, as well as with respect to Para psychological research, which for the record, is done, in many of the most prestigious universities in the world. There are relatable entries in some of the most prestigious scientific journals on the planet, which confirm the validity of psi and as well are there billions of dollars put into scientific research of the topic. The Nature research article on Geller and the Radin meta-analysis presented in Foundations of Physics, could not have made those two scientific journals, unless they passed the most rigorous of mainstream scientific scrutiny. And of course the ever popular "Amazing" Randi, would never have settled out of court with Uri Geller, if Randi could have proven Geller was a fake (keep in mind Randi is not only a professional magician he is also an escape artist).

The fact that there are extremist running around claiming (actually screaming) that the paranormal is invalid, does not invalidate the above. The reality of the situation is that we are well beyond reasonable doubt.

Any thoughts?

Yeah and Gellar is also a magician, he just pretends not to be.

But my point is that science hasn't come along and anounced that "yep the Hippies were right all along, there are people in this word who genuinely talk to dead people"

I will admit that neither has science said that the idea of a psychic is absolute rubbish, but UNTIL it can be proven without a doubt that it is real, as far as I am concerned it isn't real.

Roxie of course you are entitled to your opinion but in relation to the data provided in respect to mainstream scientific journals (Nature and Foundations of Physics) those entries could not exist unless "without a doubt" they were in fact valid in every respect.

As far as the Geller vs. Randi settlement understand that Randi could have literally retired on his own island if he had won that case in court. There really is absolutely no reason for him to have settled with Geller unless of course it was impossible for Randi to isolate the way Geller did it outside the idea he was using paranormal ability.

Where did you hear Geller was a magician?? Have your read the way Geller ability got published in the Nature (mainstream) Scientific Journal??

Nature Article

Literally Roxie, a person can say that the earth is flat and it is the center of the Universe and not one can prove otherwise unless that has been in space. But quite frankly the evidence presented in respect to the fact they are incorrect in included in these Mainstream Scientific Journals (in general). And then of course there is the issue of a settlement by a professional Magician and Escape artist who based his reputation on the idea that Geller was a fraud.



Any thoughts?