The existence of God.

Often I am asked why I believe God exists. What evidence do I have? What knowledge do I possess that others are unsure? When I pull out the bible they run for the hills. So I have given it serious thought and without biblical references here is my answer.

The best evidence I can think of for the existence of God and creation is in the fact that all living things are pre-programmed on a need to know basis. Even A plant seeks the sunshine and water for growth and the ability to reproduce itself. Bird migration is both complex and accurate to meet the needs of food and warmth for survival. All species seek sustenance shelter and members of their own kind for comfort and reproduction.
Mankind has the same needs as all life on this planet, yet he has something extra!

Mankind has a need to know from where he came from and where he is going and why?

He has the ability to envision an existence beyond his own mortal limits. And in order to grasp this concept he seeks out spirituality and concurrence from his own thoughts actions and those of others of his kind. Through meditation, prayer, philosophy, religion and art he seeks the nature of his spirit.

If all things are pre-programmed on a need to know basis then the evidence is within us. Our desire to know more than we need to is our own evidence that there is more. If we seek spiritual enlightenment as an animal seeks food and water it is because we know it exists. Therefore our search for spiritual substance is as real as the food, warmth and shelter all living things seek.

We know that we have been programmed for this search so what remains is to find the programmer. GOD!

Your thoughts?

All The Best Irish

Sorry Irish but that dose not explain anything unless you are already a believer.
it is far more logical that over the years of evolution these natural habits stayed programmed in our brain and if god did create us that would have been the biggest mistake it ever made....

You are right kitco.
Unfortunately this argument can be used both ways. Believers in God can easily suggest that certain things are they way they are because of God, and those who do not believe in God can easily claim that the way things are is because of other things, such as Evolution or Genetics.

That's generally the way it is with the whole debate, there can not be a victor because any argument can be used to support either side. Thus, we shall always result in stalemate.

I much prefer to be allowed my views while being openly interested in the views of others and discussing why certain people believe different things rather than debating who is right and who is wrong.

so if god was only there at the beginning but is not here now why would he be at the end?
what if you have small defects of humane mutation will god still accept you?
how come i can never contact angels, they do not seem to help me allot!
i wonder if bacteria from other planets could in fact evolve like it did or if that was a once in a blue moon happening
?

i hate not knowing the answers.... but i heard if you find out the meaning of life you die

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we seek the bigfoot, dose not mean it is there, lots of stuff is not there that we wish it to be!
sorry i cannot believe, what about spirituality science? practical science with open minded beliefs? I will never shut the door on something there is always that possibility that it could exist i personally cannot prove it well enough to convince the world, so why bother?
towards lower comment
no conscious human can explain it?
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? ? ?
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? ? ?
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i do not like the sound of this unkown world seems dark and scary on my end...lol

Evolution will never be able to explain consciousness because it is outside of its paradigm.
You seek food because you are hungry, your hunger is the evidence and reason for your search.

If there is a need to know, logically there must be a reason for that need.
Science can only provides answers to the known world, spirituality provides answers to the unknown world.

Irish

Well I am old but I am still alive, I think.
You ask far more questions than I can answer here without de-railing the topic. In order for one to understand the answers one has to have a solid foundation of questions. The cornerstone of that foundation is, Why? Once that stone is in place you have something to build upon it, just make sure that your foundation is strong enough to support your house.
Time only exists in our world as there is a need for it. God’s world does not require the limits of time that is why He is known as Alpha and Omega.


And I encourage you to keep those doors open in your search.


Irish

Why is there a need to know? What drives this blood thirst in humans, this ultimate desire to consume knowledge and delve into the utmost answers of our known, and unknown, Universe? I simply cannot answer, nor to i claim that science, as opposed to God, can answer that. I however am simply unsatisfied with the answers God can give me. They do not make sense because the world is based on rules and laws, and God exists outside these.
My theory is simply Evolutionary flaw. That we Evolved too much, too quickly, and at this point in our existance are simply unable to comprehend our world, our Universe. Indeed this to you must seem very much like what your words seem to me, and that's okay I enjoy the fact that we believe different things. Afterall, the world would be rather boring if we all believed exactly the same would it not? Perhaps that was part of Gods plan to spice things up abit.

Yes all living things are created with a code pre-programmed in. Why is it however that God has given us this Genetic code, or how? Why can it simply not have developed because of the nature of life? In my opinion it is better to research and use the tools available to us in this world to find out exactly why it is there, and how it works. To me, simply saying 'because God did it' is not a feasable or acceptable answer.

My words are fueled, naturally, by want of knowledge rather than a wish to be right or wrong. As such, i highly enjoyed posting this.

Good post Burnside. The very fact that you still ask “why” is evidence that your hunger for knowledge is not yet satisfied. I do not claim to have all the answers either; whenever I do they change all the dam questions .
Perhaps it is because we do not always like the answers that are presented to us that we continually seek an alternative.
I agree there is a certain amount of pleasure just putting our beliefs into words here. These kinds of things is what sets us apart from the rest of creation. Man is the only creature that does things for no apparent reason.
Irish

really?

Interesting Irish, I feel that that is an awesome explanation of why.

In my short lived life-I have also noticed that same thing just never really thought as to why we do this- so if we are preprogrammed like hardwear? Are we just the same as these animals who just live mainly to survive- is the search for this "god" are survival? The search for "no god" is this also man's reason to live? Possibly the most interesting of all things is how we think. We were programmed to think like we do so we can survive?

And thus religion evolved.

Interesting analogy, Zandore.
Even religion has a few missing links.

Irish

hi all; i tend to think as fragile as we are. ie no food or water we die, natural disasters , disease. etc. all those would be on the - side for believing. i believe because the cosmos ,matter,dark matter,gravity,magnetism. all these things must be in perfect alignment. so i believe the distance of the sun & the moon existing at just the right distance from us , the planets never going off the trolly 0 derailments in a gazillion yrs. the wonders out there .comets ,novas ,quasars etc. how could all of this occur randomly on the 1st attempt. something more is involved. call it g-d for want of a name. maybe what we see from our telescopes ,which now purport to go back in time. is not the true shape or form of the cosmos. instead its something to make us confortable. its not so much if there is a g-d . or if the old testiment is valid. its what is his purpose ,why has he created us ,our world. why is this world such a mess after all this time. well just putting in my 2 cents plain. i'd like to believe there is much more than our short stay here . themeister

Spirituality provides an answer to something not yet answered, a false explanation of truth for the lifetime of the participant. People need to accept that chances are we will not know the answers in this lifetime. Simple as that.

Beliefs can be dangerous. I am skeptical, I may be skeptical all my life. But, I regret nothing about being this way. I believe in myself.

Hey Pflack, what do you mean, you believe in yourself?

Hello Irish

I am part Irish and that use to be one of my many nicknames!

What are the missing links in religion? Curious?

Do you believe the Bible is the Word of God or just a good book?

I don't mean to offend you but I have asked that same question to other priests and ministers and was very surprised by their answers. One expects a Christian to believe in God's Word....but that is not so nowadays. Being a Christian today can be like putting on a different suit every day. You never know which Jesus they are taking about?

Just for the record I'm one of those dinasours who believe the Bible is the Word of God and that God does not change. He is the same yesterday as He is today. He still "talks" to his people. He still interacts with us. He has not forsaken us or this planet. Mankind told God to take a hike along time ago. It is man that walked away from God in the begining and he is still walking away....and God is still calling out to man....and God is still very active... you just don't hear about it but He is moving and it is so exciting.

Mankind has caused and brought on much of the grief and sorrow on this planet we don't need to blame God....although many do! God did not create puppets.....he gave us a will.....and a right to choose which way we will go. Although He has given us rules and a mannuel.....many blow if off. It was not the first book I picked up for answers either. I too, choose my path and choose to "look" in another direction.....to the world and what it believed. That was my big mistake! I paid a price.....I ventured into the spiritual realms and open a door I wish I had never opened. But I was not alone.....Jesus walked with me. He warned me on many occassions...but I wouldn't listen. I walked ahead of Him.....and I walked right into Satan's territory.....on my own power.....no one prodding me or pushing me. I walked into the LIGHT that was DARKESS.

But the Good News.....God will come to us if we trully seek Him. He will lead and guide us, but the journey is not without cost but it is truly worth the cost when you find Him. My friend was a Budhist and I told him that I would prayed for him when he told me things. One day He said to me, "Do you believe God will come to me if I ask Him? Will He let me know His real self?" I said," Yes, He will come "if" you seek Him with ALL your heart, mind and soul." He then told me he was taking the Bible with him and going up into the mountains to be alone with God....and he wanted to know this person called, "Jesus". I told him that I would be praying for him and I trully believe he would meet Jesus up there.....Jesus will come where ever you are. Several weeks later I saw him. I could tell his whole countenance had changed and he seemed so happy. He was so glad to see me. I laughingly said, "It looks like you met Jesus! " Then he said to me "When you came into the store and we chatted all those years I saw something in your eyes, and I wanted to have it, but I didn't know what it was or what to ask for. I did not see it with everyone, but I saw it with you and your family and several other people. But, I wanted it so much. I know know what it was that I saw and wanted! I saw "Jesus" in your eyes!" I hugged him as a brother in Christ, and I hugged him for sharing with me what he had said about my eyes. I had been praying and asking Jesus to be seen in my eyes. It was answered prayer for my friend.... and for me!


May our Lord Jesus Christ find those who seek Him....

If anything, GOD has caused grief and sorrow on this planet.

The Bible is the word of man. Infact, it's disturbing.

Example;

Exodus 31:15

"For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death."
If this is the word of God, shouldn't millions of people be slaughtered in the name of the lord including myself? I work a Sunday job.

Leviticus 20:9
"All who curse their father or mother must be put to death."

Read the Bible people. Don't just stand by it.
Reference

I think God expects us to use a little reason.

From what I've learned and read God was in the process of creating a Holy Nation and a Holy people. With that said, He had to make them understand how important and holy the Sabbath day was. For they were to take time to worship God and be thankful for His blessings. They were not to just blow it off as another day in the week. God was serious about Holiness.....He still is. How do you make pagan people understand holiness so they will "remember it" and not profane it! It works for me! I wouldn't want to knowingly or unknowlingly profane God. But, if I do, I can repent and ask for forgiveness.

As far as the "curse".....God knew the understanding and workings and power of curses. To curse who God set in power to be the head of the family was an indirect curse against God Himself. If God set the order of power and authroity in a family, it was to be honored and respected, it was not to be profaned by anyone even the children or grand children. A harsh lesson. After a few dropped dead I don't think it took long for the others to stop cursing their parents.

You seem to me to be hostile toward the Bible. I could be wrong about that but that is how it seems to comes across to me. Truth is hard to face and many of us do not want to face it. But, if you do not know God, or his nature you will miss much of what God has to share with you in His Word.

I should have said "And thus religions evolved."

What missing religious links are you thinking about?

I would ask this ... Who programed god?

Sean

Believers tend to use excuses like 'God has always been there, he was not created!', but whose to say the big bang wasn't "always there"?

To ask that question you would first have to place the God within a paradigm controlled by time as we all are. God always was and will always be. I realize that is a tough concept to grasp, but I will attempt to explain.

As I said before, time itself is only a construct of the Creator for reasons unknown at this time (one of the missing links of religion) but perhaps it is part of the need to know analogy because we live within its boundaries and have no concept of existence outside of it. It is virtually impossible for our minds to comprehend eternity so it becomes an uncertainty.

Initial creation itself was an event that was completed, finished, done on the sixth day. Like a precision time piece once it was completed it was designed to run continuously. the manner that it runs now is pro-creation of all species. And as God is not limited to time itself I believe the 6 days of creation was a metaphor for mans understanding of measure and more for the understanding of order of creation.

The only thing that is 100% certain in life is no one comes out of it alive. And you work your 65 plus years to support yourself your offspring and your government so your children can repeat the cycle. Yep! Good old death and taxes, you’ll not escape either.

There is evidence of a creator everywhere we look. Yet there are many of us who deny His very existence. It amazes me that one can look upon the complexity of the computer in front of us and not deny that it had a creator. Yet we look at the complexity of a single human cell or gaze into the universe above us and still deny it was a creation.

To believe it was all an accident of circumstances is to believe that a tornado in a junk yard could possibly assemble a 747. There is a mark of a creator on all things. And as an artist or craftsman loves and cares for his creation so does our Father love us so much that He provided a means to be re-united with him.

Irish

Irish, what about those that seemingly don't seek the knowledge of where they came from, where they are going and why? The ones with genetic disorders ie. autism and other mentally incapacitating disorders Would they not also be programmed with that little 'extra' by that same god but somehow this 'extra' is not there? Would these cases not be some type of evidence that our evolutionary make up is responsible for this "need to know" component? Just my thoughts on the matter.

Personally, I wouldn't go as far as calling our thirst for knowledge and understanding as an evolutionary flaw rather more of an aspect of evolution that has become a curse of sorts for humanity. A flaw in evolution does not survive for relatively long, we on the other hand have survived and become dominant. On the other hand, it may still be a flaw and it has yet to fail us and we will not survive - but it seems rather long lasting to be a flaw

If you are talking about our solar system & earth being in just the right way for life then there is nothing to indicate that it is a 1st attempt. With all the billions of galaxies each housing billions of solar systems, it is likely that it may just be a millionth/billionth attempt Likewise, if you are talking about the laws of physics and the universe as a whole how do we know that it is the first attempt and the universe is not just a progression of physics laws with perhaps the theorised Big Bang event being the last 'known' progression into these laws of physics from others. Just something to think about

Cheers

My 02 cents ...

... Why do people believe in God? For most people the answer is still some version of the ancient Argument from Design. We look about us at the beauty and intricacy of the world - at the aerodynamic sweep of a swallow's wing, at the delicacy of flowers and of the butterflies that fertilize them, through a microscope at the teeming life in every drop of pond water, through a telescope at the crown of a giant redwood tree. We reflect on the electronic complexity and optical perfection of our own eyes that do the looking. If we have any imagination, these things drive us to a sense of awe and reverence. Moreover, we cannot fail to be struck by the obvious resemblance of living organs to the carefully planned designs of human engineers. The argument was most famously expressed in the watchmaker analogy of the eighteenth-century priest William Paley. Even if you didn't know what a watch was, the obviously designed character of its cogs and springs and of how they mesh together for a purpose would force you to conclude "that the watch must have had a maker: that there must have existed, at some time, and at some place or other, an artificer or artificers, who formed it for the purpose which we find it actually to answer; who comprehended its construction, and designed its use." If this is true of a comparatively simple watch, how much the more so is it true of the eye, ear, kidney, elbow joint, brain? These beautiful, complex, intricate, and obviously purpose-built structures must have had their own designer, their own watchmaker - God...

The Improbability of God
http://www.simonyi.ox.ac.uk/dawkins/WorldO...lityofgod.shtml

Respectfully,

Sean

Interesting question guardian, I am going to reason that there may be several answers to that question.
One is they are here for a different reason then the rest of us and are part of our lessons on unconditional love and therefore they are an instrument to our spiritual growth.
Another thought I have is a little unconventional. I have worked with and loved those that you speak of. The following scripture has always fascinated me.

Jer 1:5 (ASV) Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee, and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee; I have appointed thee a prophet unto the nations.

It speaks of a preexistence of the human soul. It could very well be that free will was also apart of that existence. So it is a real possibility that we had a part in the choice of our physical manifestation for the benefit of our own spiritual journey.
To pre-select the conditions and parameters of our existence on earth. We may have even chosen our parents and siblings in the same manner.

Irish

Half your post was word for word with another one of yours.


If I may quote both of us.....

I did not know it was against the rules to repeat what I have said before. Because I would be guilty as charged. My answers have not changed since the last time someone asked the same questions, why should my words? I noticed yours hasn’t. Mr. Osmond

As for the analogy I always find it quite funny when evolutionists can not explain an event in time they simply add a few more zeros to the numbers, increasing the probability factor into their pre-conceived formula.

Irish

"Pre-conceived formula" you say?

Claim CF002.1:
Order does not spontaneously form from disorder. A tornado passing through a junkyard would never assemble a 747.
Source:
Hoyle, Fred, 1983. The Intelligent Universe. New York: Holt, Rinehart and Winston, pp. 18-19.
Response:

1. This claim is irrelevant to the theory of evolution itself, since evolution does not occur via assembly from individual parts, but rather via selective gradual modifications to existing structures. Order can and does result from such evolutionary processes.

2. Hoyle applied his analogy to abiogenesis, where it is more applicable. However, the general principle behind it is wrong. Order arises spontaneously from disorder all the time. The tornado itself is an example of order arising spontaneously. Something as complicated as people would not arise spontaneously from raw chemicals, but there is no reason to believe that something as simple as a self-replicating molecule could not form thus. From there, evolution can produce more and more complexity.

At least "evolutionists" stick to facts as they are found and do not do as the creationist do.....twist to their pre-conceived formulas.

Is it possible for human to have all the answers and proof or must we rely a certain amount to hope and faith? Science is continually changing as new discoveries are made on a daily basis, the answers occasionally send us back to the drawing board and sometimes open an entirely new form science and reasoning. For instance quantum physics was for the longest time pure speculation and theory and now is receiving the credit and attention it deserves. We have a tendency to except scientific principles as dogma and in essence it has become a form of religion unto it self. With some adherents, so dogmatic that they reject anything to the contrary as being foolish and born of ignorance. Our personal view is blinded by our own arrogance and self worth to the point of actually stiffening our scientific progress as well as neutralizing our spirituality. We place our faith in proof and speculation and give little credit toward old wisdom and ancient knowledge, New and Improved has become the god of the twentieth century.
In reality if a man was to know all there is to know about this planet we call home we would consider him to be a genius among men. Yet even if it were possible to have all that knowledge we must also consider that this planet of ours is but a grain of sand in the vastness of the universe and that knowledge is extremely limited and miniscule leaving us right back were we started with speculation and faith.
Although I admire science and appreciate the strides it has taken us I personally have more faith in the Creator than I do in the sciences. If it is not possible to know everything there is to know then I believe a foundation of faith is greater than a foundation of uncertainty to build my life upon.

Irish

What I want to know is if GOD had a choice in making the universe. Yes I believe the big G made the universe but then evolution had something to do with US too.

I believe God had that choice and did a pretty remarkable job.
The word evolution has the stigma of the theory of evolution attached to it. There are parts of evolution that I believe to be true as well as a few things I disagree with.
If we are talking about adaptations to environments I am in total agreement with. I believe that God set in motion the process of creation and by pro-creation the cycle continues. Unlike the Deists I feel that He has a vested interest in His creation and is always in control of it.
Irish

Show some irrevocable evidence of this vested interest....all I can see is the creation of a universe where the creatures are given true free will to determine their path...quite unlike the "my way or the highway" approach of the Jehovah of the Christians....

I read a small piece of the bible, i'm still on it and it seemed to me that God himself was still learning... example: when he flooded earth he said afterwards that he would never do this again. Why was that? When He was about to whipe out Sodom, Abraham was able to 'talk sense' into God. Maybe all this has something to do why God stopped to visit Earth and interfeer. Maybe he realised that there's a fine line between good and evil. Someone who steels is bad, but if that someone steals a bread to survive, is he a bad person to? If you kill my mother, and i kill you, doesn't that make me as bad as you? I think God was learning and maybe still is, and some say God can't make mistakes, i think he could or can do so. I think God is no more 'coming' to Earth and interfeer with our lives but he is with us in our mind, hart and soul.

Irish

I like your logs with other people on this site.I feel like a distant friend. Their something missing in you philosophical point of view. You don't compaire apples and oranges, what I mean is you shoudnot disscuss God from a matterial point of view, He/or she is not matterial so the matter prof mongers win most discussions. They want tangible prof nothing else now I can provide them with prof positive ,but I wouldn't want to waste my time in showing them anything. Even though they seen with their own eyes thier still skeptical, why waste the time.
Joke: I came home early from work went to take a bath and as walk through my bed room my wife was in bed with my next door nieghbor, my mouth droped open saying why.; but she was smart though ; she rose up in the bed and said ," Are you going to Stand their and believe you Gosh darn lying eyes."

I have a mystery about god you probable never heard and no one can explain .That's just for you Irish

Science improves it's self and religion remains static....stagnate in it's basic tenet.

That which is stagnate is doomed to die.


Is it wrong for some people to want truths and facts to be known and half truths/half lies falsehoods (no matter the origins) exposed for what they are?

Morning Irish. How can a foundation in faith be greater than a foundation of uncertainty? It can't be, for both are the same. Faith, by its very definition, is the belief in something that lacks material evidence. In the Bible, it is defined in Hebrews 11:1 as "... the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

There can be nothing more uncertain than faith.



Well said, Z! Science never ceases in asking questions, to attain knowledge through verifable experimentation. Religion? It is stagnate, withering away as the centuries roll by. This is clearly evident by our past. A world once replete with gods and goddesses ... is now devoid of but a handful of deities.

Respectfully,

Sean

i may not believe in God as others do,but i respect any person who has faith in his beliefs and is willing to go to his grave knowing in his heart that he is right.I do not follow the Christian religion nor any other but i can feel Gods hand in evrything. I also believe that any person who believes in his God will meet that God, if he holds true.
I would never try to convince another that his God is not The God. for the simple fact that if I happen to be the person believing wrong then it would be just my soul that i condemed.If i convinced another to follow me then i would not only have destroy'd my soul but his also...not a thing i would ever want to be responsable for! In short i'm saying that God exists even if He/She is only in the heart of one person.