'Either I or the scientist is a fool with our opposing views of probability,' William James wrote. The risk of appearing foolish, he believed, was the least of the dangers. There also was the risk of failing to investigate the world in all its dimensions, or making it appear smaller and less interesting than it really is.A hundred years ago, one of the most ambitious of research projects was launched, a study that linked scholars and mediums on three continents. Its purpose was to discover whether living humans could talk to dead ones.Newspapers described the work as "remarkable experiments testing the reality of life after death." The scholars involved included William James, the famed American psychologist and philosopher, and Oliver Lodge, the British physicist and radio pioneer. They saw evidence for the supernatural — in this world and perhaps the next.In one instance they made a request to an American medium while she was in a trance. The request was in Latin, a language the medium did not speak. The instructions included a proposal that she "send" a symbol to a British medium. During her next trance session, the American began asking about whether an "arrow" had been received. Later, comparing notes, the researchers discovered that during the American's first trance, the English psychic had suddenly begun scribbling arrows.

It was only after a series of similar, equally unexpected results that the researchers published their findings.Could any study produce results more provocative, more worth pursuing — more forgotten — a century later? For many, the dismissal of such Victorian research represents a triumph of modern science over superstition. But — and I admit that this is an unusual position for a mainstream science writer — I believe that it may instead represent a missed opportunity, a lost chance to better understand ourselves and our world.

View: Full Article | Source: Twin Cities

Most scientists don't fear ghosts, spirits, or demons because they plainly don't believe they exist. Just because they can't explain a supernatural phenomenon, doesn't means it's not real. Not all superstitions are figments of imagination either.

It's funny how most scientists will accept the theory of the Universe being created by an astronomical explosion, caused from a reaction of atoms and molecules that was "always there" in the void, yet, can't believe our conscience/soul can go beyond our body.

Well put.

Yeah, you nailed it. They believe in a "dead" Universe. Mostly believe life has no meaning, when we die we're finished, and everything is natural and pointless. The very thought of us being something "special" scares the hell out of them.

I see no logical reason why any person should completely ignore all of the phenomenom that occur which helps support the idea of an afterlife. Most pretend to look into it, then just shrug it off and find half ass explainations.

Can't explain what? What is there to suggest that ghosts are real, which science can't explain?

Science has NEVER given a good explaination as to alot of the "ghost" phenomena that occurs. All we get is the same comment over and over from skeptics "Halucinations". But that explaination is unverifiable. Especially when 2 people see the same ghost at the same time.


My girlfriend's father also had a phone call from his dad 2 hours after he died. But let me guess... "Grief caused halucination". Well, if that makes you feel better, believe yourself. I personally think it's too farfetched to believe that so many people can halucinate the same exact way, all over the world. Not to mention I don't find it very likely to be able to halucinate so vividly and easily.

So believing in a ghost is easier than believing in a halucination.
Wow. You will buy anything.

What ghost phenomena?

Eyewitness accounts?

Scientists are jokes when it comes to debunking ghosts.

Yes, we should start training people from a young age on how to debunk nothing. That way in the future the entire scientific community might not be such a laughing stock.

Well, not really. Who's to say that they're all not halluinations? I'm sure a great deal are either made up, halucinations, or have some logical explanation. There are, however, a great deal that sceintists cannot explain and that's where I usually hear the half-assed explanations.

Exactly! Very well put!

~~Cebrakon

Would be nice to have it looked into. Paranormal events affect many people. Just think if it was really proven to be physical, drug companies would have a field day! I do believe in the paranormal. Even if they did get involve, chances are they would mess it somehow.

Given the circumstances, amount of people who see the same thing, how obvious it is when you know you're not tired, drunk, or drugged up, yet experience something right in front of your face which fits the description of what many, many, many other people have seen, you'd have to be gullible to buy into the halucination thing. Hell, we might as well say that everytime we look up and see an airplane we're halucinating. Cynics must really think the world is in an halucinating frenzy, they use that same excuse for UFOs sometimes as well. And almost every other paranormal phenomenom.

Given those circumstances, I think you'd have to be extremely gullible to beleive that what you saw was an Halucination. How will we ever know if people are truly seeing ghosts if all we do is shrug it off as an halucination and forget about it? I won't stand for that.


And personally, I don't see what's so hard about believing in Ghosts? I don't see it as farfetched in the first place. I perosnally see more evidence to support a metaphysical consciousness than I do for a physical one.

well put! the physical realm are the doorways to the metaphysical and so many other planes of existence. we cant go around keeping our eyes closed to the obvious right in our face.

Well, I'm not saying that the metaphysical world is obviously in our faces, but I will say that ghosts are. Whatever they are, I think it's pretty obvious they exist. What are they? Well, I don't truly know, but I'd say it what it appears to be; the human spirit.

Pareidolia, misidentification, self-dillusion, outright lying and hallucinations can easily explain all sightings; (and I know for certain that many, many people do lie about seeing paranormal things, whatever the reason may be).

I live right near to Hampton Court Palace, where there some fairly famous 'ghost' footage came from (Click to see). In different parts of this palace there are 'haunted' by many different ghosts who lived their before. One of the most popular would probably be that of Catherine Howard, who's ghost could be heard screaming, and the temperature would suddenly drop afterwards. Many people I know fully believed that they had encountered a ghost.

Later a team of people did some research and found out that the sound and temperature drop was caused by an old passage/vent or something, when they blocked this, all of the sightings stopped, and no one has seen the ghost since. If hundreds of people were misidentifying the draft of air, why is it so hard to believe that many more sightings can't be explained by that, aswell as the other explanations I listed?



There is no evidence.



Such as?

How you could ever claim to be a skepitc is beyond me. You are a believer of the worst kind. You believe anythinng without any proof.

Of course some people hallucinate. The ones on drugs and with medical problems! That's just common sense. That does not however, even come close to explaining the actual phenomenom.




You are a cynic, not a skeptic. No true skeptic would brush off this phenomenom as you have. You stunt a growth in knowledge of the unknown. You do not allow new knowledge to be obtained about this phenomenom, because you completely ignore it.




As if there could be. I guess we could just catch a spirit in a bottle and study it in a lab via physical means, when the thing itself isn't even physical! Hah, laughable. What would you need as evidence in your opinion? I've experienced things, and I know people who have. I know that means nothing to scientists. You know why though? Because it can't be studied, not because it is untrue! But, none of the people close to me who've experienced these things have ever had any other halucinations in their life, so there's no reason to believe that just because "ghosts aren't suppose to exist!" I should believe they halucinated. Nor have I.

I really think you throw your common sense down the drain, and actually think that you're using logic.


Turn on some Ghost Hunters. Their show is assume. They look at it all the same way as me. If you find a normal explanation for "cold spots" or "eery noises" then it's not a ghost. There's no reason to jump to conclusions. So, when you SEE a ghost, right in front of you, clear as day, it's a bit hard to listen to those skeptic saying "Believe me! It was an hallucination, I'm telling you! You're crazy!".



And about your comment "You believe in anything without proof". No, I don't.



1. I don't believe in God - I had no experiences to prove anything to me, or other people.

2. I don't believe in the loch ness monster. - Almost every first hand account is an account in which they saw it from FAR.

3. I don't believe in the moth man. - Rarely ever hear of people seeing it.

4. I don't believe in the chupacabra. - Most sightings are at night, and can easily be mistaken for a chupacabra, when it's actually a dog or cat.

5. I'm not sure if I believe in life after death. - I see much evidence to support it, just not enough to know for sure. I usually hate speaking in absolutes and saying that I KNOW something exists.


When it comes to ghosts, I know exactly why I beleive in them, and there's no way I'm going to change that because a few skeptics have not experinenced anything, or take first hand accounts and consider them 0% relevance.

Ghost Hunters.Woooo. Your basis for believing in ghosts.LMAO.
Call me whatever. I know how to apply logic to determine if something is real. Scientific method. Wow. You are not any kind of skeptic.I imagine that has to do with your age. You believe anything. As you grow up. Life experience will show you the way.

You still use faith. Believing in ghosts requires just as much faith as believing in god.
Holler if you hear me.

Life experience has shown me the way. My age? Well, you're one to talk. You're acting like you are about 13 years old. Laughing at my opinion because it differs from yours. I hope you're not over the age of 23, because is living for that long has yet to open your mind, you're in for serious trouble.


Do you think it's logical to think that such a wide spread phenomenom is all a mass halucination? Do you know how many people experience this phenomenom every year? And I'm not talking about those young kids, or "ghost fanatics". I'm talking everyday average people who aren't even into all of the "unexplained".

You give me one good reason to believe that all of these people would halucinate the same exact way, and sometimes even at the same time, seeing the same thing, and I'll accept your opinion and may even convert!




LOL!!!!!!! Now that one is funny. What I see as evidence, you may not. Get over it. I don't take anything on faith. If I see something that I believe to be evidence, I will definitley give that phenomenom some credability.

Also, you're playing with words. I not once said that I use Ghost Hunters as a basis for belief in Ghosts. Don't twist what I say. If you can't find something useful to say without twisting my words, move on.




You know, I can argue that when you look up, and see an airplane flying over your head, you are halucinating. That's basically the same logic that cynics use to explain away ghosts. And how can you even scientifically verify that all these people are halucinating? You can't! So you actually don't use the scienfitic method.

If your explaination can be verified and proven, then your explaintion WOULD explain away the idea of ghosts.

And if you could duplicate the MASSIVE amount of halucinations in a lab, I'll believe you. You'll need to get everyone to halucinate the same exact thing though. Without guiding what it is they experience during this halucination.


Oh, and one more thing. If it's all juts an halucination, why is it that the only "odd" thing that happens, is usually a "ghost figure" that they see? Why don't they also see monkeys running around, or colorful rainbows with pots on the other side?


Explain this to me in a scientific way:

My girlfriend's dad got a phone call from his father, 2 hours AFTER he died.

If your answer is "Halucination", I'll ask you: How do you know?

Do you base that epxlaination off of the assumption that it's not suppose to actually happen in real life?

I am 34 with 2 kids. I am very grounded. I support a family. I don't just go to school.
Mental illness effects a huge portion of the population. Halucinations can fall into that. People lie. Alot. In fact many people get off on hoaxing others.
Now, I guess we must agree to disagree. Good luck to you.
I can respect your opinion if you respect mine. Though you do seem a little angry.

I'm not angry, I'm a little upset however, how you treated my opinion like crap at first.

And let me point out one thing: You're right. Alot of people lie, and alot of people want fame. But that can go for anything. People lie about many things to become famous. People lie about REAL things, people halucinate about REAL things. That doesn't really change much. And as for a hoaxer: That's why we have photographic analysis and the like.

I did not treat it like crap. I just can't see your logic at all. It doesn't seem to be there. But, we can just say like Ali G "Respect".

"Respect". =D

No, I just think we have a hard time seeing eachother's logic since we're on 2 completely opposite sides of the fence.

I can pretty much understand what you're trying to say though:

You think that all ghosts experiences and sightings are either:

- People are lying about it.
- People are hoaxing pictures and videos.
- People on drugs are halucinating.
- People are mistaking simple things as a ghost, when it's a light reflection or the sort.

I've been there done that. I use to look at ghosts the same way. I've just changed my mind over time.

Not even physical? If they can apparently be seen, if they can make phonecalls, if they can change temperatures, move objects and make sounds, why does it matter? They can still be observed, meaning they could also studied.

Also, I'm not sure as to my opinion on "Cold spots". Although one of the rooms where I use to work, where my aunt and her friend experienced a "Shadow person", it always stayed freezing cold. Even during the summer time, while every other room was warm(10 rooms in all).

I use to work in a theatre at night =P.

You failed to answer this question: "How do you know?"


So, if you go to a loved one's funeral. And you get home a few hours later, then the phone rings.. you pick it up and hear that samed loved one saying "I will miss you...". You hang up and say "Damn, I need to see a doctor"? That would be pretty sad... really....


I see no reason to believe why such an event would be an illusion/halucination. I really don't. Just like if I get a phone call from a living person, why should I believe that the phone call never really happened? <-- Because your basis is that it "isn't suppose to happen. Whereas if I get a phone call from a person who's alive, it's assumed it really did happen because you already know it's possible.


If 2 seperate events happen one after the other, clear as day. They should be treated in similar fashion wether it is "suppose" to happen or not given our current understandings. Not exactly, the same, but in a similar fashion. Meaning don't assume one did happen, then assume the other didn't, simply on the basis that one isn't "suppose" to be real.

Nothing needs to be contained. Truly unexplained phenomena would constitute as evidence. To my knowledge, no scientific researchers have ever investigated a haunted location and encountered anything unexplainable, unless you can show me otherwise.

Meh, watch ghost hunters. They explain away alot of things, yet there's tons left unexplained. And refer to the actual original post/topic itself.

And to be honest, if you use simple logic, it'd make alot of sense why as well. If they are actually intelligent, don't you think they'd hide when all the cameras are on? Or at least be a bit more sneaky?


Just a thought.

A note: When I talk about experiences, I'm not talking about simple little nothings like light reflections, or a noise you hear from behind you. I mean full blown figures appearing in front of you, or watching a door close by itself.


My ex-girlfriend's sister's house was "haunted", this was before I was even into the paranormal or anything of the like. I was chillen in the living room with my girlfriend, and we both heard the door creek, we looked straight ahead and the door was closing by itself. Right after that happend, the curtains right behind us jerked and moved around, so we jumped off the sofa and turned around, but nothing was there. We were the only ones at the house as well, and they don't have any pets. Not to mention it was not a breezy night, and they had already had many experiences there beforehand. Such as the stove door would open and slam almost every night.. Same with the cabinets.

Note: It's not impossible for a door to close by itself via natural means. But when there is no reason to believe it happened naturally, there's absolutely no reason to ignore the possability of a ghost, especially when others have had "ghostly" encounters in the house beforehand. Believe me, if it was windy, I'd just say it was the wind.

oh, and to Raptor when he asked what I see as evidence of a metaphysical consciousness.


- I do not believe the brain could contain the type of consciousness we possess. We'd be more like a computer in my opinion.

- NDEs, OBEs, etc... Some are even verified by people in other rooms. (Whereas the person experiencing the NDE, tells of how they floated above other's in another room hearing every word, which is later verified by those people)

- etc... Don't want to get into yet ANOTHER long, circular argument.

For more on consciousness, refer to my topic here: Link

Another link: http://www.near-death.com/evidence.html < -- Pretty interesting things talked about there.

And what is there to suggest that ghosts, spirits, and demons aren't real by science?

Yes, and at one point in time, people believed the world was flat. Anyone who dared claim the Earth was round were executed for saying such blasphemy. Who knew they were right all the long.

My point is, just because there's not evidence found yet on the subject of spirits, doesn't mean they don't exist. Not all facts, proof, and evidence falls on one's lap. That's why researchers are born.

If everyone were skeptics, the world would still be flat.

The lighthouse of St. Augustine is fully open to any qualified scientist to study.
Multiple eye witnesses and camera footage to make it worth the investigation.
At this point it would be up to the scientist to prove nothing is there, as all evidence points to the fact that something is indeed "living" there and it is not human.

The fact that no scientist has taken up the challenge is "proof" to me that they know something we call spirits are real and they have no intention of confronting "it".

Bella, you nailed it. I think science is too biased against this type of research. So much so, that even the scientists that may WANT to investigate this phenomena won't, because they're scared their reputation goes down the drain.

I said: "What is there to suggest that ghosts are real, which science can't explain?".

Huh? What's that? 'Nothing' you say? Well then, there's no reason to believe that they exist, scientists might aswell be going out of there way to prove that there's no 53ft troll eating cars behind my house, seeing as there's no reason to believe that exists either.

The afterlife could exist, but it's impossible to do any investigations to see one way or the other. However ghosts, in my opinion, exist only in the minds of people. If they were real there would be something to suggest so other than farfetched stories; of which 95% seem to stem from the most incredible sources.

No reason to believe they exist, if you are a person who's never seen one. I'd agree on that. If you didn't see one for yourself, of course you shouldn't believe it! Unless you trust your family members/close friends enough to beleive their stories that is.


I think you see things in black and white. Either it has to be proven 99% before you accept the possability, or else it does NOT exist. I havn't seen anything as of yet to convince me that all of these sightings, videos, etc.. are false, invalid, or halucinations.


Like I said, maybe someone should try to get more than one person to have the exact same halucination in a laboratory.



Science has not explained anything.. Science has taken a GUESS. If you disagree, then why don't you prove to me how sciences' explaination is proven true without a doubt, and not just a guess?



Ghosts have been a known pheneomena for ages. We also have video tapes, sound recordings, MANY MANY eye witnesses, etc.. How much of that can you say for that 53foot troll? It's worth looking into at the least.




What would suggest ghosts exist in your opinion? Please do tell.

Zero you've held strong in this thread well done

I think the problem is because ghost manifestations are firstly rare occurrances, secondly they're not predictable, and thirdly we haven't really got the right tools yet... My thought also is working out what exactly the right conditions are for a manifestation.

One ghostly manifestation that I witnessed along with several others (mixed believers and skeptics) happened, there is nothing that can take that experience away from me or the others that expereinced the same thing. An experience like this has nothing to do with faith, hallucination, lies or drugs, it's just something that can just randomly happen and if you see it, you see it.

I agree completely. The cynics need to put themselves in the experiencer's shoes for a moment. And think about how they'd react if they knew they were not on drugs, drunk or had any reason to halucinate and saw a ghost.

Raptor X7, at one point or another, all the factual things we now know, were, farfetched stories, such as, Earth is round and not flat, invisible matter we call the "atom", and so forth. I suppose you don't seem to understand this concept. Maybe if I try sarcasm too, my message would come accross. Here it goes.

So what's that I'm reading everywhere lately about scientists currently saying that life may exist somewhere else in the Universe? By your statement, that's totally absurd! There's no proof. There's no indication or evidence at all saying that's true. The only life we know is here on Earth. There's no reason to believe otherwise. Geez, I guess those scientists are telling farfetched stories!

Now, that was good sarcasm!

Ok, I think I may be able to shed a little light on this subject.

Almost 4 years ago me and my wife were in our bedroom sleeping. I woke up suddenly and I do what I always do which is look around the room, and everything was in the norm. I rolled over and put my arm around my wife (whom is a very light sleeper) and she roled over and cuddled next to me. I closed my eyes to go to sleep. But fro some reason I decided to open them again and when I did, standing at the foot of my bed was a huge black figure ( had to be at least 7 foot tall). Now house is positioned so the street light shines into our room. So lets just say I had a good look at this things face. It was completely normal from what I remember. It seriously looked like a very tall and surprisingly handsome man at the foot of my bed. He didnt look evil or like he was threatening me or my wifes safety. I naturally blinked, thinking I was hallucinating, or dreaming. I put my hand on my face and rubbed my eyes then looked again to the foot of the bed. It was still there. Now I panicked. I always keep a colt.45 on my nightstand. Now when I reached for it I made a panicked yelp which alarmed my wife, who in turn freaked out when she saw the thing at the foot of the bed. My gun was gone. Now I thought that this man had my gun. I grabbed my wife and pulled her to me to protect her. I asked it what it wanted and it just stood there. Then suddenly after a few moments its face change to oe of pain and it let out this ear splitting scream and just dissappeared instantly. I immediately called the police, who didnt believe a word of what me and my wife had to say. Me and my wife saw the same exact thing. We both even went to a shrink for a year and a half. The doctor said he had no idea why we even bothered to go to him. He said that other from our farfetched story we had minor stress.

I dont think what I saw was a ghost. I dont think it was a hallucination. Me or my wife have never done drugs. I believe what we saw was a demon. Now what I am going to say wont sit well with either parties of this debate Im sure but after that little run in and a certified shrink telling me I have noe mental issues, I looked into the Bible to see if there was an explaination there. The Bible describes demons as very handsome depictions of men. What I saw was a seven foot handsome depiction of a man. You can sing hallucination all you want. Two people dont hallucinate in sync. Its not like wi-fi where when you hallucinate you can link up to other people tripping out and share the same trip. Now if you can explain what we saw in a scientific formula then be my guest. And good luck.

Oh yeah and I didnt find my firearm until two weeks later coming home from dinner and it happened to be laying on the floor in the exact spot the "hallucination" was with no bullets in it. We dont live in that apartment anymore. You can take my story and believe it, or not believe it. I know what I saw and so does my wife. Im just saying that maybe we should open our minds to possibilities that science cant explain. Because if I am right scientists still dog over the whole stupid evolution theory even though its father, Charles Darwin renouced everything he wrote on his death bed. Maybe science and pure logic isnt as true as we think.

Besides, how many times has "science proved to be completely wrong. Take global warming for instance. It was a big deal a few years ago and science made it seem as if global warming was steadily moving upon us and that we would see its effect in the next number of years.... now that study in itself was done years ago and we now know that global warming isnt as big a threat as we originally assumed. Same thing with the asteroid set to hit our Earth in...oh around 4000 years. Remember when that first came about, "2012 Earth would be devastated by the asteroid". Then about 6 months later "Whoops, we messed up. its actually going to hit in 6012". First of all how do you miscalculate 4000 years? Some help science proved to us then.

My point in all of this is simple. Science is and never will be reliable. Why? Because later down the line there will be some one to come along and discover something different or it will fail. And how can you trust science when it is the core reason for our problems today.
Science= War
Science= Nuclear waste problems
Science=Higher taxes (definetely this one)
Science= Biological weapons
Science= Toxic fumes
True science helps the world go round. It is a great thing but what keeps scince from excelling and becoming great is its inability to look beyond the confines of a beaker or a test tube.Scientists are fools blinded by their shrill logic and in ability to look beyond what is before their eyes. They cant imagine something they dont see.
You will never see eye to eye on this subject. You just wont. It boils down to your core beliefs. What do you believe in more? Science? Or POSSIBILITIES?