(Edited for clarity – thanks to someone that understood what I was saying, just that I missed the mark in expressing it.)

The dialog of Psi / Psychic abilities and what I personally have found to be the ‘case’.

There are two groups of people in this arena:
Subjective Reality - Psi/Psychic’s
OBJECTIVE Reality Psi/Psychic’s.

Now I would put the “Psi-ball, Psi-Energy constructs into the “Subjective Reality”

I would put Remote Viewing into the “Objective Reality”

SUBJECTIVE REALITY & OBJECTIVE REALITY.

SUBJECTIVE:
a. Proceeding from or taking place in a person's mind rather than the external world: a subjective decision. b. Particular to a given person; personal: subjective experience.
Moodily introspective.
Existing only in the mind; illusory.
Psychology existing only within the experiencer's mind.

OBJECTIVE:
Of or having to do with a material object.
Having actual existence or reality.
a. Uninfluenced by emotions or personal prejudices: an objective critic. See Synonyms at fair1. b. Based on observable phenomena; presented factually: an objective appraisal.
b. Something that actually exists.

REAL:
1. Having verifiable existence:
concrete, objective, substantial, substantive, tangible.
See real. -vs- Imaginary.


More of what I mean:

A claim:
"I have TK and can move, (object)"
Then note:
Usually, objects are round or super light.
No one else was present at the time.
Cannot be reproduced, except when alone.

Then when OBJECTIVE Reality questions are asked, offense is taken. But valid questions should be understood as just that VALID.

The SKEPTIC is actually a GOOD THING - they offer balance to any claim, by asking valid questions.

What happened?

The round object rolled!
Was the table balanced? (Most tables usually are not.)
Did the round object roll in the direction that would be normal for a table off balance? Do marbles and such roll in a specific direction and did the object roll in the same direction. This is usually a good simple test, with the marble.
Answer is more than not, yes it did/does.

Were there any drafts, of even the slightest?
Yes these can play into the motion of the object.
Air duct, your own breath, windows, ceiling fans, window opened ajar, etc.

Where you moving?
Etc... all these questions would be valid.

The final point being: “it” canNOT be reproduced with any sort of witness or consistency.

Objective Reality –
There has been a good number of testing done on Remote Viewing. There are some very “Objective Realities” that can be seen. Like the site chosen and the drawing that shows the given area that was RV’d.

Can you think of any other Psi/Psychic Abilities that would fall into the “Objective Reality” arena??

Thoughts??

J -

UPdated because of lack of clearity as one person pointed out.

Thanks!

J -

ok, question - is there something (or the whole post) that is not clear or ???

Thanks for any imput -

J -

Good thread.

People bash skeptics all the time because all we ask for is honesty.

I closed the door on belief a long time ago after MUCH research. It's not the I'm abrasive or angry, just sick of the same claims without a single shred of evidence other than some grainy videos made by people with conveniently "shaky" hands so you can't see what's really going on.

Knightmeir states....


Dude you should read your own thread abrasive and angry is an understatement; it’s more like . You want some honesty, there is much more than "grainy videos made by people with conveniently "shaky" hands so you can't see what's really going on". There is in fact the Scientific Journal, Nature with regards to Geller as well as, Foundations of Physics Scientific Journal in relation to the Dean Radin meta-analysis. Better yet there is the issue of Randi, settling out of court with Uri Geller, of the fact, he accused Geller, of fraud, with respect to bending spoons. . You know what Knightmeir, you are full of something and it has nothing to do with Christmas spirit

Any thoughts?

PS:

Ok, let's keep this off of "KM" - actually he simply and clearly expressed where he is coming from:



There is nothing wrong with this... actually in more cases than not, it's exactly right on the button.

I would even go one step further - why do my requests for, say removing the "heat equation' from the Psi-wheel, seem to get ignored and/or glossed over?
-- Any thoughts?

How is it that none of these people will take the challenge to REMOVE THE HANDS (heat) - since it's supposedly suppose to be by 'thought/mind' power?
-- Any thoughts?

How is that if you move the hands say even 6+" from the object it won't move? But the closer the hand (heat source) then it moves?
-- Any thoughts?

Now I admit that I pick on this one right now - because the science is really so obvious, that I find it curiously sad that it's litterally ignored by a lot of people - and I understand why. If they actually did take an even semi serious look - they would see the truth of what is at play - not psi but simple physics and thermal dynamics. Nothing more and nothing less.

See this is the 'evidence' part - they produce this video of their mind (hands) moving this object. Then they provide NO evidence that heat is NOT at play here. They will argue - but not produce and even ignore and fight against evidence that proves this is nothing more than heat.

-- Read some of the many threads on this - they will argue that heat is NOT at play, even though there is easy to come by evidence it is. Why do they argue that it's not heat - but NOT prove it's not heat?? There are some very easy video tests they can do to remove the 'heat equation' - but the will not. Thus provide no proof it's not. But continue to argue none the less.

A Jjr high science lab can produce the same effects with warm towels, heat bags - well anything that can keep and give off heat will make the wheel go around. This has NOTHING to do with Psi - but everything to do with heat and certain laws of physics. So if it can be CONSISTANTLY and EASILY reproduced in a Jr. high science lab and they understand exactly the laws at play - one has to wonder why this is so emotionally ignored!
--- Any Thoughts?

This is where the frustration comes from - which yes I share totally. Most of these Psi Construct wanna bees live in a Subjective Reality - it's real in their heads and only their heads. Funny when someone comes and says, "ok, let's really put this to the test ..." and the Psi is easily and clearly dis-proven that emotions fly. Not logic, not acceptance, but emotional attacks from Psi - one of the many common phrases: Unbeliever! Debunker! etc. They don't offer logic, rational thinking, facts, proof - just name calling, in more cases then not.

So do we get frustrated? Yes, we do - the subjective reality is emotionally based not fact based, and seriously not science based. It fantasy based. Fantasy of the mind. Nothing more and nothing less.

See I'm a Skeptic in that what I mean by this - I listen to the claim but do NOT take the claim at face value. I then set out to see what is going on. Can it be validated, reproduced, etc. I let the facts fall where they will - not the person's emotional claims.

What do I look for personally - credibility, validatable and reproduceable in a person's claim. Usually it being validated or ability to reproduce is always lacking - seems in a majoirty of the cases/claims, it will ONLY happens when NO ONE is around and/or there is nothing to, or that can be, measured, felt or verified except in the person's "I say so...I feel it here.." but it cannot be measured, felt, sensed by anyone else. How is the "proof"? It's not.

J -