Hello everyone,

I am a bit new here but I was reading one of your forums and decided you are my kind of people!!

I recently ran across the work of someone who claims to have discovered ancient starmaps across the globe. Even MORE interesting is that they seem to convey an IDENTICAL message!!! What do you think? I think this is more than a coincidence.

http://www.thehiddenrecords.com/
http://www.thehiddenrecords.com/newstarmaps3.htm

.......If that isn't enough, here's one for all the Mars fans!
http://www.thehiddenrecords.com/mars.htm


What do you think? Is this more than a coincidence?

Welcome to UM. I'll read up on those links a bit later. I hope you enjoy your stay. You'll meet many people with similar interests.

Hey thanks for the reply!!

When you can, check it out and tell me what you think, would you?

Well after reading this article it seems like this site is just trying to make some money for the book as is seen in the bottom corner, "Please Spread the word" ect..... While I do not deny that the pyramids and such had alignment with the stars, they did this because of their knowledge of astrology and maybe for mystery of the sky. That they lined up monuments with the stars doesn't surprise me, but I don't think extra terrestrials came to earth or whatnot. Sounds like a bunch of propoganda to me.

- Bokonon

P.S. - Welcome to U.M. have fun.... and remember to make smart connections.

Welcome aaron, there is much on that web site to be read. Looked over the part where Washington, DC and the portrait of Washington can be mapped out and fit certain patterns. Would have to see more. If tried hard enough many cities and objects can be fitted into some sort layout that exists elsewhere. I do think the author has made a mistake in using the Devince (sp) evidence right now with the hugh disappointment of the book and movie that left many people hanging.

well the fact that there are many many ancient structures around the world that are alligned to the summer and winter solicaste"s is undeniable. amazing firstly how they did it and secondly how poeples all over the world had the same ideas around the same time.. methinks someone was travelling the globe sharing the knowledge.

Or else a once global civilization fell apart.

Agree! To a certain extent.

Good point!! I have never been able to accept the existing "dogma" that nearly every major civilization on the globe developed VERY similar belief systems and advanced knowledge.....all without interacting with one another!!

If the star map theory is correct, then these visitors not only helped us but let us know from where they came as well. Check out this mural (half-way down) found in an Egyptian tomb....

http://www.thehiddenrecords.com/gods.htm

The entire image, I have found, is much larger in the book.

The mural represents Orion, or Horus, pointing to the sacred bull (Taurus) who points to a small red dot. This obviously does not represent our sun for it is far too small. That red dot is the same size as the other stars depicted in the mural and sets the scale. Now, see how the star shines down to the Earth. (note the ground with the man)

The man is pointing up, drawing the attention of the viewer to THAT star!!

Why? What could be so important about that star? Remember, this mural is found in a tomb, and therefore must have been of extreme importance to the illustrator and those entombed.

Hey guys,

I have done some digging regarding the proposed "sun-like" stars.

http://www.thehiddenrecords.com/gods.htm

The two stars in question are do indeed exist and are quite rare with regards to their similarities to our sun. Both are listed as "G spectrum sun-like." They are listed with TYCO and can be found with starry night pro. Here are the listings.....

HD283271

http://simbad.u-strasbg.fr/sim-id.pl?proto...p;Epoch3=2000.0

HD282943

http://simbad.u-strasbg.fr/sim-id.pl?proto...p;Epoch3=2000.0

Here again is the Cydonia overlay on Mars. What are the odds of having not only 2 stars but 2 "G spectrum sun-like stars" in this precise alignment?

http://www.thehiddenrecords.com/mars.htm

Does anyone else believe this could be more than a coincidence?

Also,

Would anyone else be able to veify that the star listings and HD numbers I found are correct?

Why? The source you are using has mislead you, that's why.
From your source:

Senmut dates from the 18th Dynasty (1539 - 1295 BC).

Unfortunately for the pseudohistorian that is attempting to pawn this scamalicious book off on you, the Egyptians of that time did not know of any "Taurus the Bull" constellation. In fact, in 18th Dynasty Egypt, star groupings were not themselves considered to meaningful at all. The zodiac the con artist author fraudulently foists upon 18th Dynasty Egypt did not arrive in Egypt until after Egypt was conquered by Alexander the Great, who brought the Greek zodiac and constellations with him. His conquest ushered in the Ptolemaic Era in Egypt around 300 BC. Please note that the "Tomb of Senemut" the crook here is using to indicate some sort of star map actually precedes the Taurus constellation in Egypt by over a thousand years!

That's a fairly long time, I'd say.

Harte

Thanks for the reply Harte,

You are right about one thing.....that is a fairly long time. However, the egyptians DID obviously know of constellations. I do not think that you actually took the time to read all of the proof.

http://www.thehiddenrecords.com/egypt.htm
http://www.thehiddenrecords.com/egypt.htm

By the way, the "conventional" accepted dates for the construction of the pyramids already PREDATES the arrival of Alexander by nearly TWO thousand years.

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/pyramids/timeline.html

This means that the ALL pyramids in Egypt represent constellations and they were laid out in that manner well before 2000 B.C.

The star map theory holds up both with the patterns and the dates.

Thank you for proving my point Harte.


"Egypt was conquered by Alexander the Great, who brought the Greek zodiac and constellations with him. His conquest ushered in the Ptolemaic Era in Egypt around 300 BC."


Senmut dates from the 18th Dynasty (1539 - 1295 BC).
and.....
(Dynasties IV-VIII)
2575-2150 B.C.
-Age of pyramids reaches zenith at Giza; cult of the sun god Ra centered at Heliopolis.

The star map (both pyramid layout and Senmut mural) was around nearly 2000 years before Alexander 'FIRST' brought constellations with him.

It is undeniable huh? alligned to summer and winter solstices? what do you mean by this, that something happens on those days, or that they are alligned to light of some sort? Hardly any of the peoples around the world had the same ideas at the same time. Look at the differences in religion, architecture, and that some places had developed agriculture while others had not. The peak of different civilizations happened during different time periods for the most part, and the knowledge was spread through trade, and the conquering of new lands. For example the peaks of Mayan Civilization and the Egyptian Civilization were nearly 2,000 years apart! While these ancient civilizations did have knowledge of astronomy, they did not have the technology to see far off galaxies, and would interpret what they saw in terms of Constellations oftentimes in their architecture. What evidence is there for extra terrestrials travelling the world and sharing knowledge? Absoletly none. Many people take these civilizations for granted and say that they weren't advanced enough to align with stars and build the things they did. You underestimate humans and our ability to reason and think. So, these civilizations had fundamentally different beliefs until one overcame another and put the new ideas upon the people.

As for the site, it seems like this "theory" is making ties to things that are a bit of a stretch. And in the corner of the page, it looks like it's propaganda, so I'm going to go ahead and say this is some sort of cult trying to gain popularity. Also aaron, try comparing with other sites, many internet sites have false information.

- Bokonon

Thanks for the reply Bokonon,

Many cultures from around the world share nearly identical beliefs in many ways. For example, many Native American cultures state that their ancestors came from near the Pleiades. They are not alone in those regards.

You are correct that there is no direct evidence that extra terrestrials travelled the globe. No bodies, no ships could not have happened, right? Cave paintings from around the world state that we were visited in the form of, sometimes very vivid, pictures. Now tell me how cave men travelled over the oceans to share that.

They didn't. They all saw and recorded what they saw for themselves and with glaringly similar details.

I do believe in the intelligence and will of the human race. I will cetainly give credit to the great builders in that they were human AND that they built the monuments.

The archaeological record goes back to VERY primitive mankind. Hunter-gatherer, living in caves, etc.

Now, fast forward a short bit and all of the sudden we have advanced mathematics, language, and GREAT civilizations. And these civilizations built things of such sheer scale and precision that we cannot do it even to this day?!

THINK! Something does not line up here!

And Bokonon,

I hope that you were not insinuating that I am participating in a cult. That would offend me very much.

You know, people that thought the earth was round were referred to as a cult and considered downright heretics. But you know what.... some people decided to look at the bigger picture. Look what they found. It sure wasn't easy to accept either.

Instead of lambasting people you have never met, why don't you argue with the facts?


Can't you see the obvious patterns of these sites and their mimicry of the Pleiades?!

http://www.thehiddenrecords.com/newstarmaps3.htm

In every one of the ancient sites (and there are more examples I found in the book for that matter), the temple of PRIMARY importance matches where the 'mystery' star is located in the sky! Why would that star, which is CONFIRMABLY listed as comparable to OUR Sun, be of primary importance in these ancient sites?!

Why would this star, which is invisible to the naked eye, be so important as to build entire COMPLEXES to memorialize it across the globe?

While some people did share similar ideas in terms of similar experiences in observing the world around them, this is not due to extra terrestrials but rather the extent of the human brain's capability of imagining the world around him or her. Cave men, Cromagnum man as well as early civilizations could not explain most of the things happening in the world around them, they thus expressed this through art and the creation of religion to help explain their surrounding. As for the advancement of human kind from cave men to early civilizations, this can be easily explained. After the neolithic revolution (the domestication of plants and animals) roughly 10,000 B.C.E. people could provide food for themselves and other people around them, so not all people in a community were dependent on finding or getting food. This led to specialization in certain fields, (metallurgy, art, artisans, rulers, religion, ect..) which time could be spent on now that the population could be fed by a portion of farmers. From this technology could now grow exponetially. When new thinking and new inventions, new techniques are used other things can be contrived of these and more off of these other things. Here we have the foundings of great civilizations and the beggining of History (the written events of the world up to this day) beggining roughly with the Mesopotamian civilization with its writing Cuneiform, which was a wedge shaped writing. As for ancient civilizations building things that we cannot build today, this is totally and utterly false. We have the technology to build these structures the ancients built much faster, but to do so would require a lot of money and time which people would not most likely spend on something like that in this day and age. As for spoken language, this has been around a long time, scientists even estimate spoken language may have developed in our early Australopithecus genus and those early species. I hope this helps you understand the progression of humans a bit better, and you will find that technology does in fact, grow exponetially, just look at the 20th century C.E.. I suggest you read up more on the neolithic revolution and its effects of human kind. Also great books by Jared Diamond on why some cilivization succeed while others fail are Guns, Germs, and Steel and Collapse.

- Bokonon

Bokonon,

I have done quite a bit of research into other sites on the net. There is a lot of false information out there.

I researched into this star map for 3 months before I would even speak about it with people. I wanted to be sure that the facts were true.

Bottom line, those pyramids and temples have been there a looong time. There layouts are nearly identical in as where the most sacred temples are situated. This star map links everything. It is so simple, it is almost laughable!

These 'gods', our ancestors let us know where they (we) come from.

They did it on Mars,
http://www.thehiddenrecords.com/mars.htm

And they did it here,
http://www.thehiddenrecords.com/newstarmaps3.htm

As I am now confident they have done on other worlds.


I don't underestimate human beings; we have been travelling the stars.

I am not insinuating that you are affiliated with any cult, I am just pointing out the fact that in the bottom left hand corner of the page, it seems to try and persuade you that this is right and will change the thinking of the world and whatnot, read it! It seems like this "theory" is trying to attract the masses and trying for propoganda.

As to the second part, how do you know that all of these complexes were made to memorialize it across the globe? and how are they lined up with it?

- Bokonon

The website just wants you to buy the book, saying it has been covered up. Pfff ha! read it lower left hand corner!

Thanks Bokonon,

Those are 2 good books by the way!

You are right that building such massive structures is VERY expensive, then and now. So why build them?

Ahh, there is the question. Why don such a massive undertking? These structures were built to immortalize something of profound importance.

That star... and where to find it!



Speaking of Mesopotmia..... check out the last picture.

http://www.thehiddenrecords.com/clues.htm

This is by archaeological accounts one of the very oldest cuneiform tablets in existence. Note the seven star of the Pleiades pointing to a single star and the address of the 'gods.' There is a man. A star traveler!

Why would this be immortalized in one of the very EARLIEST artifacts from our past?

Some half-dozen star-groups are named in the Scriptures, but authorities differ widely as to their identity. In a striking passage the Prophet Amos (v, 8) glorifies the Creator as "Him that made Kimah and Kesil", rendered in the Vulgate as Arcturus and Orion. Now Kimah certainly does not mean Arcturus. The word, which occurs twice in the Book of Job (ix, 9; xxxviii, 31), is treated in the Septuagint version as equivalent to Pleiades. This, also, is the meaning given to it in the Talmud and throughout Syrian literature; it is supported by etymological evidences, the Hebrew term being obviously related to the Arabic root kum (accumulate), and the Assyrian kamu (to bind); while the "chains of Kimah", referred to in the sacred text, not inaptly figure the coercive power imparting unity to a multiple object. The associated constellation Kesil is doubtless no other than our Orion. Yet, in the first of the passages in Job where it figures, the Septuagint gives Herper; in the second, the Vulgate quite irrelevantly inserts Arcturus; Karstens Niebuhr (1733-1815) understood Kesil to mean Sirius; Thomas Hyde (1636-1703) held that it indicated Canopus. Now kesil signifies in Hebrew "impious", adjectives expressive of the stupid criminality which belongs to the legendary character of giants; and the stars of Orion irresistibly suggest a huge figure striding across the sky. The Arabs accordingly named the constellation Al-gebbar, "the giant", the Syriac equivalent being Gabbara in old Syriac version of the Bible known as Pesh**ta. We may then safely admit that Kimah and Kesil did actually designate the Pleiades and Orion. source

As to the second part, how do you know that all of these complexes were made to memorialize it across the globe? and how are they lined up with it?

- Bokonon
[/quote]


How do I know? Hell, look at the patterns!!!

http://www.thehiddenrecords.com/egypt.htm
http://www.thehiddenrecords.com/angkor.htm
http://www.thehiddenrecords.com/tikal.htm
http://www.thehiddenrecords.com/mars.htm
http://www.thehiddenrecords.com/stonehenge.htm

There are many more, but I don't have a scanner to scan my copy of the book.


I think propoganda is forcing an opinion on someone using lies and deception. While this research is controversial, there is nothing that cannot be found in any encyclopedia or tourist map in regards to the temples.

I am not seeking to persuade anyone, I doubt the author is either. The facts and the patterns are laid out for anyone to find.

That is not propoganda... that is the scientific method. Look at the fact then present either conflicting or affirming data.

Whatever you may believe, that doesn't change the fact that those temples are laid out in patterns for everyone to see.

Thank you for that Bella.


In Sumeria, however Orion was traditionally neither represented within a flying orb nor with his arms in that manner. Other records of Orion are depicted with raised arms and usually holding a spear or other weapon.

Also, that does not account for the single star depicted near the 'traveller.' Orion has always been depicted with his famous three belt stars.

Why build them? Answer: to honor gods, create tombs and pyramids for pharaohs, for altars of sacrifice to the Gods not stars, and much to do with remebrance of their famous kings and rulers and great achievements as well as to honor that specific civilization's Gods. That last picture seems a bit of a push, often times our interpretation of ancient depictions resembling things we recognize are much different than from what the ancients presumed them to be. If you read the thread ancient astronauts there are many replies to support this. This whole theory is basically interpretation of what some scientist thinks what these "star maps" were supposed to be, when it could have meant entirely another thing to those civilizations.

- Bokonon

Actually, looking at the patterns, while they are similar, they aren't exactly the same, looking at the angles of the lines and the rotation of the pattern. I think this is mere coincidence, that they even somewhat resemble the constellations, I think it is a push to claim that these formations accurately depict the constellations until we have mathematical proof of the symmetry as well as the angles of the lines, of the actual constellations compared to their Complex counterparts. If you look at natural formations as well, they may be aligned with the stars at some places, but it is mere coincidence, it's like the bible codes, the patterns can be found in many other books.

- Bokonon

Exactly!!!! To honor 'gods' and where they came from!! Thank you Bokonon. The ancients honored their gods and where they came from.

Here is the Angkor complex...

http://www.thehiddenrecords.com/angkor.htm

Perseus is another constellation that points directly to the Pleiades. The oldest monument within the complex is referred to as "the seven temples of the ancestors" or the Pleiades if you will.

Now, that is right next to their most important shrine which represents the 'mysetery' star, and the distant between them is remarkably close to the real distance in the sky!

http://www.thehiddenrecords.com/gods.htm

These are not aligned with stars at SOME places! Egypt, for example, has EVERY pyramid depicting a star in a major constellation. And..... they are all represented as they appear in the sky.

Here....
http://www.thehiddenrecords.com/egypt.htm

Now, tell me that is a coincidence.....


As for angles and precision,

http://www.thehiddenrecords.com/sphinx.htm
http://www.thehiddenrecords.com/gods.htm

The details are a mathematical masterpiece! The scales in Egypt were adjusted to conform to the position of the Nile (see the book) and they are STILL incredibly accurate.

Not only that, but the SIZE of each pyramid is proportinate to the star that it represents.

All except the Pleiades........ the Pleiades are depicted as a full 8 times larger in scale! Why were they that important? The answer is fairly obvious don't you think?

A recent article authored by academics and published in the british newspaper the Times, actually addresses this question directly and came to the conclusion that had a human civilization existed in the distant past it would only require 200,000 years of environmental change to erase any trace of it and another one million years for all traces of it to be immersed deep beneath the surface of the Earth.

There is a growing body of evidence that points to many ancient civilizations existing in parallel. For instance the Maya culture inherited its astronomical knolwedge from an earlier culture probably the Olmecs who flourished at very close to the period of Ancient Egyptian culture.

The ancient egyptians believed they were descended from "gods" from other worlds and spent most of their existance on this planet trying to find a way to get back to them. For a civilization as obviously intelligent as the ancient egyptians to spend such huge amounts of their time and economic output on unbelievably expensive and complex projects like the pyramids inevitably raises the obvious question, why?
Nobody has ever really enquired into the motivation that drove the ancient egyptians, which must have been of extraordinary force for it to have been so long lasting.

Prehistoric Moon map unearthed

Good points!

You are correct about the Maya inheriting some of their knowledge from th earlier Olmecs. They had attained vast astronomial and mathematical knowledge. The cultures passed down that which are most important; among those math, astonomy....and ancestral heritage. Those cultures also posessed knowledge of their origins and laid out the same star map within their temples and pyramids as well. Tikal and Teotihuacan for instance.

The great cultures valued knowledge and their cosmic heritage so they immortalized it in a universal language....math and symbols.

Here is an example from the Inca. (about half way down)
http://www.thehiddenrecords.com/clues.htm
The original golden tablet was housed in Cuzco and within the most sacred of Incan temples. The tablet was pillaged by the Spaniards and is probably still housed in the vaults of the Vatican. (whole other thread there!)

Now, this information was of such importance that they not only inscribed a golden tablet.....but they also handed down the information visually as well. After the tablet was stolen, the priests who looked after the sacred information passed down the picture to successive generations.

To hand down a picture for that long..... that only reinforces the importance of its content.

If you think that the fact that there existed no "Taurus the Bull" constellation in Pre-Ptolemaic Egypt "proves" your contention that a mural in a tomb of Senmut shows a diagram pointing at the "Taurus the Bull" constellation, then there is no use continuing this conversation, as it is obvious that you are determined to maintain your belief in this fantasy even in the very face of reality. Blinders, IOW.

BTW, there is also no "pyramid layout stellar alignment" either. The idea that the three large Giza pyramids align with Orion's belt is only an approximation and it only works if you use a mirror image of Orion's belt.

Harte

Actually, they did not consider their ancestral gods to be "from another world."

Also, they did consider the pantheon of Gods, and the subsequent humans, to be the result of a longish masturbation session conducted by a god whose name I forget. Must have been boring sitting around all day with no other Gods to talk to, or humans to mess with.

The ejaculate formed the gods and the humans, from what I recall. Not exactly ancient astronaut material. I mean, if we must take literally all the "ancient texts," which is what much of the ancient astronaut movement insists upon, then what does this Egyptian creation myth, in it's literal sense, say about us?

Harte

Harte,

Did you even look at this data before blasting it?

http://www.thehiddenrecords.com/egypt.htm

Look at the maps Harte!!!!

I am a bit confused here..... how are those layouts and comparisons not in alignment?!!
Every single pyramid in upper and lower Egypt is shown, more than 50 in all.
Even a simpleton can see the pattern!

Now, who has on the blinders in the face of reality?!

That website is a joke. I kept expecting to find an invitation to thier Cult grounds. Just so long as i paid my life savings over.

As to the Pyramids lining up with the stars and all that nonsense. This is not really true. YES there are some similarities. But they are far from conclusive.

And the conclusions that that website drew would have been more suited to Monty Python.

All in all not a very impressive website.

Harte,
I guess you are unfortunate to be one of those who is not allowed to think for himself. To think out of the box so to speak. Nothing in history is 100% written in stone, especially the beginnings of the Egyptian civilization. Egyptian beginnings are merely a collective of thousands of scholar's theory building onto their original theory almost with compassion of it being absolute fact. Scholars are forced by ethics to adhere to the thousands of these respected theories to date and to build on it.

The chronology you subscribe to like a religion is a sad thing as the theory of what it all means according to historians is also moulded around humankind being alone in the universe as a fact, and that everything from the beginning of humanity must follow a natural path as such. Dare anyone consider anything advanced in our beginnings.

What do you feel about the Dendara Zodiac having record of ALL the exact zodiac mythological figures and its fantastically old theoretical date? I am sure this is awful to imagine. It recognises Cancer as a Crab, Pisces as two fish, Libra with the two scales and all the other current mythological iconology.

I can imagine that the double whammy discovery of two repeating themes in the 17,000 year old cave at Lascaux in France using Taurus as a bull, and one with all the stars filled in is another awful thought.

http://www.thehiddenrecords.com/lascaux_cave_france.htm

Here is where your religious and very fixed approach has angered you to the extent of lowering your approach as a mud slinging attack on this research and its author.

The so called exact dates have no relevance at all other than the importance that they are many thousands of years old here.

With this fairly logical new theory of a recognisable repeating cosmic pattern, the author proposes it respectfully and it is open to fair debate based on a chance that of the so called gods of the ancient civilizations around the world might be real flesh and blood visitors. I think this is where you are wetting your pants.

Is it too hard to imagine the Senmut (Senenmut) tomb murals celebrate an older complicated cosmic knowledge. Whether it turns out to be 3,000 years old or 10,000 years old, no one is arguing about the exact date of this tomb. It is simply thousands of years old and more inconclusive to historians than any other tomb.

At the end of the day please understand that no one is being forced to buy such a book especially those of a firm belief as you have expressed. Please debate with more respect if you want intelligent response.

After all lets look at the whole collection of the authors presentation as a whole. One single case like the Senmut tomb is just a small fairly inconclusive piece, but it is important in context of a repeating theme found globally.

Come on friend, let's debate without mud slinging.

Show us what you are made of. Make an arguement against the facts.

SOME similarities.......SOME..... How about you take a look again?

http://www.thehiddenrecords.com/egypt.htm

Maybe that is not conclusive in your mind, but any child can see the similartities. Now, even if some similarities exist, should not that warrant more research to either confirm or deny the theory?!


Just because you refuse to believe in something does not give you the right to label it a cult. Perhaps if you actually looked more into the work instead of just glazing over the surface you could post a reply with a bit more intelligence.

Any uneducated fool can call names.... I am looking for an objective discussion on the facts here.

So far, I have heard a lot of name calling and VERY little as to debating the facts. C'mon now, you are really disappointing me. At least present a challenge.....

You're out of line aaron, you're attacking very scholarly individuals who are trying to argue against the evidence this so-called website provides. Coming from a person who is relatively new here, you have no right to undermine everyone's points , saying that they agree with you and whatnot, this is not the case. Look into yourself before looking into others. Very immature. And tell me in the bottom left hand corner of the page the script does not sound just a bit cultish?

- Bokonon

I agree Bok.

I have looked for external verification for your theories Aaron.

I have tried to find anything that has been peer reviewed. But the fact is there is NOTHING that is credible. If I were to submit a source such as this for at Uni i would be failed.

So why should i accept it here.

Amen's name means "The Hidden One." Amen was the patron deity of the city of Thebes from earliest times, and was viewed (along with his consort Amenet) as a primordial creation-deity by the priests of Hermopolis. His sacred animals were the goose and the ram.

Up to the Middle Kingdom Amen was merely a local god in Thebes; but when the Thebans had established their sovereignty in Egypt, Amen became a prominent deity, and by Dynasty XVIII was termed the King of the Gods. His famous temple, Karnak, is the largest religious structure ever built by man. According to Budge, Amen by Dynasty XIX-XX was thought of as "an invisible creative power which was the source of all life in heaven, and on the earth, and in the great deep, and in the Underworld, and which made itself manifest under the form of Ra." Additionally, Amen appears to have been the protector of any pious devotee in need.

Amen was self-created, according to later traditions; according to the older Theban traditions, Amen was created by Thoth as one of the eight primordial deities of creation (Amen, Amenet, Heq, Heqet, Nun, Naunet, Kau, Kauket).

During the New Kingdom, Amen's consort was Mut, "Mother," who seems to have been the Egyptian equivalent of the "Great Mother" archetype. The two thus formed a pair reminiscent of the God and Goddess of other traditions such as Wicca. Their child was the moon god Khons.

Egyptian creation myth (interesting parallel with the biblical flood legend) -

".In the beginning there was only water, a chaos of churning, bubbling water, this the Egyptians called Nu or Nun. It was out of Nu that everything began. As with the Nile, each year the inundation no doubt caused chaos to all creatures living on the land, so this represents Nu. eventually the floods would recede and out of the chaos of water would emerge a hill of dry land, one at first, then more. On this first dry hilltop, on the first day came the first sunrise. So that is how the Egyptians explain the beginning of all things."

Why mummification? -
The everyday goods placed in Predynastic Egyptian graves support the hypothesis that Egyptians believed in a life after death from very early in their prehistory. A popular idea of death and rebirth was based on the legend of king Osiris, whom the Egyptians believed was killed and dismembered by his jealous brother Seth, reassembled by his faithful wife Isis, and brought back to life by his dutiful son Horus. When the Opening of the Mouth ceremony was done at Egyptian funerals, it was a reenactment of the ceremony Horus had performed for his father. After his rebirth Osiris became known as the god of the underworld.

What was the afterlife like? Thoughts on this question changed over time and sometimes overlapped each other. According to the Pyramid Texts (Old Kingdom inscriptions found in royal tombs) kings could become stars, join the sun god Re in his daily journey across the sky, or be identified with Osiris. By the First Intermediate Period common people also believed they could join Re in the sky or Osiris in the "Field of Offerings" or the "Field of Reeds." In the lands of Osiris, pests did not exist and harvests were bountiful. Everyone was assigned work to do, but it could be done by shabtis or other models of servants placed in the tomb by the family.

Two very important things were necessary for a person to "go to one's akh," or become a blessed one who could spend a pleasant eternal life. One was passing the final judgment. The other was a well-preserved body that the person's soul could recognize and return to after the Opening of the Mouth ceremony. The two most important divisions of the soul were the ka and the ba. The ka was the person's double; it stayed with the deceased in the tomb. The ba,portrayed as a human-headed bird, could leave the tomb during the day but needed to return to the body at night. Without the mummy, the ba and ka could not survive. To assure their continued existence in the afterlife, the ancient Egyptians worked hard to find the perfect method of preserving the body.

Keep it civil please folks, any discussion can be maintained without directly or indirectly referring to other members as children or those who cannot think for themselves. It is quite easy to argue your point without making any negative references to another member even if they have a differing view to you.

This is not so. "Egyptian beginnings" are only theorized based on actual artifactual evidence found by actual archaeologists and Egyptologists. Most of what I've tried to tell you here was discovered by people that had in mind that the Egyptian records might document the Flood of Noah, which most of these researchers actually thought to be factual (yep, that's how long this has been known.) Not exactly the adherence to generally accepted orthodoxy which you try to paint here. These were scientists that had to publish the results of what they found even though the results directly contradicted the generally accepted view of their time.


I'm not exactly sure how pointing out facts recorded by the Egyptians, the Greeks and the Persians constitutes "subscribing" to some "chronology" that saddens you. I hope you eventually feel better though. Had you not heard of Alexander's conquest of Egypt? Were you not aware that Taurus is a Greek constellation? Then forgive my foolhardy attempt to educate one which desires no real knowledge and shuns any factual information for fantasy.


Sorry, I wasn't going to go any further, since your post indicated that you aren't really interested in the truth, but the Dendera zodiac is (part of) the evidence that the Egyptians had no connection to any zodiac prior to the Ptolemaic era. See, the carving you're talking about was actually commissioned by the then (Greek) pharoah. This carving from the ceiling at Dendera is certainly not "fantastically old," it can be dated from the name of the pharoah that actually appears on it. This was first pointed out by Champollion, the Frenchman that successfully translated the hieroglyphic script using the Rosetta stone, in 1822. Champollion was one of those that considered the Bible to be a factual history of humanity and that the Earth was only a few thousand years old, based on the often talked about dating of the Earth by Usher in 1654 (he claimed to have calculated a date of creation from Biblical references - Oct. 26, 4004 BC, 9:00 AM.)


My "very fixed approach" has nothing at all to do with it. Nor do you, in particular. I have a bone to pick with all the moneygrubbing con artists that are out to scam you (and others) out of their money by foisting off on the public a completely bankrupt "theory" in which they purposefully and determinedly hide, obfuscate and otherwise dismiss the actual, verified evidence that we today have in order to further their own greedy needs. Ignoring the well-known, verified and recorded date of the Dendera Zodiac is one excellent example of this sort of shenanigans. Nice people call it "pseudoscience." Myself, I'm not so nice about it.


Yet there can be no question that the tomb predates the Ptolemaic kings of Egypt, no? The Dendera zodiac is the earliest example of these constellations that has ever been found in Egypt. So, if you want to believe otherwise, fine. I'm just pointing out that what you are practicing by such belief is faith, and not reasoned opinion.


Sorry, but I can hardly muster any respect at all for idiots such as this author you cling so desperately to. This I do for you, by the way, and not for myself. Please be more grateful.


Boy, you got that right. The "whole" picture certainly needs to be looked at. Might I suggest you visit other sources of information than some website that is trying to sell you a book? I mean, think about it! Why not look into information from sources that are not attempting to make money from you? Take a look at every, single link you posted here that supports this crook's idea. They all link to his "buy my book" website!


I am arguing facts. It is you that has let a fraudster put words in your mouth. I suggest you at the very least take his points one by one and do a little research on each one to see if you can verify any of what he claims. That's how I got started, and that's how I dug myself out of the vonDaniken-inspired morass of ignorance from which I began my education in these matters.

Harte

I was planning to say something quite similar Harte. But you seem to have covered it all nicely

Nice Job Harte, I had a good laugh reading your post .

- Bokonon

[quote name='Harte' date='Oct 14 2006, 05:49 PM' post='1389728']
Why? The source you are using has mislead you, that's why.
From your source:

Senmut dates from the 18th Dynasty (1539 - 1295 BC).

Unfortunately for the pseudohistorian that is attempting to pawn this scamalicious book off on you, the Egyptians of that time did not know of any "Taurus the Bull" constellation. In fact, in 18th Dynasty Egypt, star groupings were not themselves considered to meaningful at all. The zodiac the con artist author fraudulently foists upon 18th Dynasty Egypt did not arrive in Egypt until after Egypt was conquered by Alexander the Great, who brought the Greek zodiac and constellations with him. His conquest ushered in the Ptolemaic Era in Egypt around 300 BC. Please note that the "Tomb of Senemut" the crook here is using to indicate some sort of star map actually precedes the Taurus constellation in Egypt by over a thousand years!

That's a fairly long time, I'd say.

If thats the case then how did the babylonians understand and use the Zodiac long before the Greeks got it? Where did the Babylonians get it from if not the ancient Egyptians?

The zodiac (which is derived from the Greek word meaning "circle of animals") is believed to have developed in ancient Egypt and later adopted by the Babylonians. Early astrologers knew it took twelve lunar cycles (i.e., months) for the sun to return to its original position. They then identified twelve constellations that they observed were linked to the progression of the seasons and assigned them names of certain animals and persons (in Babylonia, for example, the rainy season was found to occur when the sun was in a particular constellation which was then named Aquarius, or water bearer).

Fantazum,

Actually, you have this backwards. There is plenty of documentation of what we think of as the Zodiac in Sumerian writings and artwork. It's right there. On the other hand, there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that the Egyptians got anything like this from the Sumerians, or at any time at all prior to the Ptolemaic era. Sumeria is where the Greek Zodiac (which is what the West considers to be the Zodiac) and many of the constellations come from, not Egypt. Certainly, many constellations we know today originated in Greece. But the Zodiac we know today, including Taurus, appears only in Sumeria/Akkadia/Babylonia in the truly ancient world (pre-Greek,) and nowhere else. Additionally, there is a great deal of evidence to indicate that the Sumerian civilization is older, perhaps a great deal older, than any Egyptian one.

Of course, anyone can believe anything they want. But it becomes a matter of faith only when there is a complete and utter lack of any evidence at all for such a belief, as is the case with any ancient Egyptian origin of the Zodiac.

Harte

BHARAT (India) In Bharat records exist today which point clearly to a highly developed knowledge of astrology as far back as about 6,500 BCE and actual manuscripts are still extant which were written about 3,700 BCE. SOme of the originals have been destroyed or lost but actual copies of these originals were made by alter astrologers. These are to be found in the libraries of Maharajas and in the libraries of certain states in Bharat. Actual, detailed records of astrological science are continuous from about 6,500 BCE. One of the earliest authors of Vedic astrology, copies of whose work are still to be found, is Pita Maha who wrote a treatise on astrology called Pita Maha Siddhant(a). He lived and wrote this book about 3,000 BCE. Five hundred years later, another author-astrologer named Vashishtth(a) wrote several books on astrology, astronomy and philosophy. His most important work, and one which was used as an authority by all subsequent writers on the subject, is Vashishtth(a) Siddhant(a), but he wrote may other equally erudite and authoritative texts such as the Panch Siddhant(a) Kosh(a), Soory(a) Siddhant(a), Nityanand(a), Brhat Jatak(a), Aryabhat, Mansagari, Ranveer, and the Laghu Parashar. E. M. Plunkett writes in his book Ancient Calendars and Constellations: "The opinion of the Greek writers at the beginning of the Christian era may be quoted as showing the high estimation in which Indian astronomy was held. In the Life of Appollonius of Tyana, the Greek philosopher and astrologer, written by Philostratus about 210 CE, the wisdom and learning of Appollonius are set high above his contemporaries because he had studied astronomy and astrology with the sages of India." In a book called You and Your Hand by the late Count Louis Hamon, known better as Cheiro, this statement is found: "People who in their ignorance disdain the wisdom of ancient races forget that the great past of India contained secrets of life and philosophy that following civilizations could not controvert, but were forced to accept. For instance, it has been demonstrated that the ancient Hindus understood the precession of the equinoxes and made the calculation that it [a complete cycle] took place once in every 25,870 years. The observation and mathematical precision necessary to establish such a theory has been the wonder and admiration of modern astronomers. They, with their modern knowledge and up-to-date instruments, are still quarrelling among themselves as to whether the precession, the most important feature in astronomy, takes place every 25,870 years or every 24,500 years. The majority believe that the Hindus made no mistakes, but how they arrived at such a calculation is as great a mystery as the origin of life itself."

BABYLON The first mention of astrology as it was practiced by the Babylonians appears to place the period at about 2,500 BCE, but no actual records of literature concerning the Babylonian contribution to the science have been discovered to date.

EGYPT It is evident that the Egyptian knew and used astrology many thousands of years before the time of Christ, and the earliest Egyptian astrologer mentioned is Petosiris, a priest who lived during the reign of Nicepsos about 800 BCE. If Petosiris wrote any books on astrology, however, they have not been found. The earliest Egyptian authority on astrology whose works are available today and actually form the basis on which modern astrology is practiced in the Western world was Claudius Ptolemy. Ptolemy was born at Pelusium in Egypt, about 70 CE, and attended the school of Alexandria. His Tetrabilos is the source of many of the errors which have been perpetuated in the modern systems.

source: http://www.flex.com/~jai/articles/history1.html

This is true, but has little or nothing to do with our zodiac.


Also true, but the Sumerians predate the Babylonians. Did you not look into the actual origins of "our" zodiac? It is Sumerian.


Basically what I've already said. Note Claudius' last name and remember CE is the politically correct term for AD.

Harte

there's a theory which was featured in the movie Mission to Mars which states that an advanced Martian civilisation was destroyed by a meteor and the survivors fled to all parts of the galaxy, some of em landing on earth and evolved into humans and the other hominid species.