So I had my wisdom teeth pulled last week (not a pleasurable experience) and was lucky enough to be put under during the procedure. For anyone who has ever been knocked out with anesthesia, you'll know the weird feeling of loss time.

When I went under, I went from counting backwards from 10 to walking out of the doctors office with no knowledge, feeling, or comprehension that I had just had my wisdom teeth pulled. To me at least, it may as well as never happened, some can even argue it didn't.

Now, everyone experiences lossed time daily when you sleep. While your sleeping you loose the comprehension of time, existence even, for however long you are asleep (Well, there are dreams, but lets leave that our for now). But when you awake, you instantly can establish the reality around you (some need coffee first ) , because you can remember you went to sleep the night before, and remember everything before that. So even after you just experienced a "blank" in reality, memory is what allows you to re-establish it. So where am I going with this you ask?

Throught out life, you experience things and store them through memory. Memory is what lets you know your alive and here, its what allows you to have concious thought. Without it, you would have no grasp of reality, time, or anything really. To you, you wouldnt exist or at least you would never know you do exist.

Now, lets look at death. When you die you as a person, body and flesh, you cease to be. If your dead, your brain no longer functions, and your no longer storing things in your memory because well, your dead. Another blank in time, for you at least.

(here is where I have a hard time describing what I'm trying to get at)

The way I look at it, is since we have (or at least I have) concious thought right now, meaning I'm know I'm here and know my of my own existance, there has to be a point after death, in any form, that I or something can recall the events before my death. If you look at memory, its always looking backwards, never forwards. Your always recalling data through out your life, at the pace of your own reality or comprehension of time.

Time as we've established is just a measurement of passing or collection of memories. For all we know, our life span could really just be a flicker in time, something so short, so small it has no effect on anything in the Universe as a grand scheme.

If there was a simple beginning and end (meaning your born, then evetually die and nothingness after that) . then you wouldn't have the concious thought you have now, because your time, reality, etc. would be (or could be rather) already in essence long gone and over.

(And here is what I've been trying to build up to, thanks for bearing with me )

If you or something doesn't have the ability to recall the events before your death, after your death, does that mean you may as well not have existed because theres nothing there that shows you had?

With that said, does memory, concious thought, show theres more after death? Now, what *is* after death is a totally different thing, and is a topic I wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole. This is just something I was thinking about and finally got around to typing.

Thoughts? I understand my ability to explain things are terrible, so if you need elaboration please do ask.

I think I may need a bit of elaboration, lol. It seems interesting, but I'm not *exactly* sure what you're getting at.

[quote name='xBananax' date='Oct 11 2006, 01:35 AM' post='1385040']
I've been trying to build up to, thanks for bearing with me )

If you or something doesn't have the ability to recall the events before your death, after your death, does that mean you may as well not have existed because theres nothing there that shows you had?

Hi X,B
You are asking one of the biggest mysteries of life and you know and thier are atleast seven schools of thought on the subject. I'm taking the hi road in this one If we are re incarnated then life after life why does that happen . God or the supreme being is giving us another chance to start over and over until we get it right. Think of it no memories of the past life at all my mistakes were forgiven like the bible says I 'am born again But their is a down side ; if you are who you are evil you will never change althought given several chances, while good progress with each incarnation . Injoy your new life?

If a tree falls in a forest with no one there to hear it fall...does it make a sound?

Same type of question and the answer in both cases is yes. Even if no one remebers you there is still the physical evidence that you existed. Even if no one heres the tree fall it stil makes the sound.

Even after we die, our being here is marked by deeds we have done and those who remember us. Just because we may forget that we existed (let it be we went to heaven or been reincarnated) doesn't mean every part of us went to. Our children carry on our line, that garden that was planted continues to grow. Does that make sense?

I don't think you have any backup here. I mean, your theory is that because memory looks backwards, it must still be looking backwards after we die, and this proves the existence of an afterlife? I'm not sure, love.

One thing that you said that I =do= like is the idea that our existence is really like a blink of time in the scheme of things. I like to believe that everything is all happening all jumbled together in one brilliant moment, and that time and space are, (as cliche as I know this sounds,) just an illusion. A tool used by our minds to separate and concentrate.

^^^
Yes but the OP is wondering that if nobody remebered us would we exist. No family, friends, etc.

You can't prove it did make a sound.. Unless you leave a tape recorder there. =D

heh, as I said I do a poor job at explaining. And obviously this is entirely speculation with absolutely nothing backing it what so ever. Just some things I thought about after feeling the effect of anesthesia.

My post wasn't about if there is or is there not an after life. And in order to make it simple, completely ignore and disregard any thought of religion/belief that involves anything after death. (Pretty much look at it this way, could 1 + 1 equal 2? Not, why 1 + 1 equals 2)

If we can't remember something, it didn't happen, or at least not in our own reality. (if a tree fell did it make a sound blah blah blah)

Sooooo if we have concious thought now, and memory only works backwards, does that mean at some point in some form after death your experience/memories can be recalled in some way?

If no, then would death be the absolute end? In which case you cannot recall back, in which you have nothing that defines you, your reality, time, place, or anything. And if at any point you lack that on any time line, how could you have concious thought at any point?

Think back to my reference to anesthesia, while under, you have no concious of reality, which is why time at least to you, moves around it. (In my case I went from sitting in a chair to walking out the front door with 2 hours missing.) But since I was able to recall my memories after I came to, I know I am here and the reality that surrounds me.

BUT, if I were to stay in that state, there would be nothingness. For the past and future. aka not existing.

Did I do better this time

Well after you die you can't recall your memories because well your dead...your brain doesn't work anymore. It's an endless sleep..you will never wake up to remeber your memories.

I'm still not entirely sure at what you mean though.

Well, memory only works backwards. If when you die and memory ceases, that means you no longer have the ability to establish reality, because in your words, your dead.

If at any point you are unable to establish reality (past or future) for a permenant (infiinite) amount of time, how can you have concious thought now?

heres my thoughts... you have conscious thought because you gotta brain and body functioning to make you aware of thought! aware of time, yourself, reality whatever whatever. thought doesnt exist without a physical plane to work thru. just like we dont exist without mother earth. but we're much more than just that.... its obvious!
and when you die.. theres is no waking or unawakening... just being, knowing, accepting.. and who the hell knows what else! memory doesnt prove an afterlife, its just an informative way for us as humans to learn from our past and grow from them... to reach a fufillment.. or rather enlightenment

peace be with u all
<3

Because you are alive now!

Why am i me and not you or some cat in Australia ?

Noone knows

It's all a mystery!

Healthy thinking though

hmmmmmm ok. Memory does not prove life after death it proves life before death. Now when we are all on the other side wondering "hmm i wonder if there is death after life?" (lol) then I guess we well know that there is life after death but we wont be able to remeber it. lol Does this make any sense? NO? well i'm just trying to follow suit. hahaha. So it might be the way it was explained, but i dont see how memory proves anything except you were alive at one point and remember it. Now as far as the do we exist thing that is going on in this tread.... if you were the last THING alive on the planet, you would be thinking how much it sucked, youd feel lonely and youd EXIST. No one else would. lol you would, so it doesnt matter what OTHERs think. you exist cause you just do. And if a tree falls in the woods...blah blah blah...... the answer is NO it does not make a sound, A sound is what is HEARD. but it does still make a SOUND WAVE. Thank you for youe support. Ilove you all.

Memories can be false, and "real" events leave traces other than conscious memories.

Therefore, conscious recall of an event is neither necessary nor sufficient to make the event "real."

By the same token, failing to consciously recall an event cannot make the event "unreal."

Nor can it be said that not remembering an event robs it of influence over the present so that it might as well not have happened. Quite the opposite. Take repressed or ill-formed memories of trauma for example. You do not need to consciously remember that you dropped a hammer on your toe in order to flinch when you see a hammer. Indeed, the unconscious association of the hammer with pain probably influences behavior more strongly and intractably than any conscious memory.

The same is equally true of large scale events. People needn't remember, for example, that their ancestors were farmers for that fact to profoundly influence their lives. Although they might remember nothing at all of that life, the "memory" of it is imprinted on the way they eat, sleep, work, and so on. Indeed, the fact that they have forgotten the circumstances that caused these habits probably makes the habits *more* persistent than if they were based on things consciously recalled.

These two examples make it clear that unremembered events can sometimes be *more* real than remembered ones.

If this logic applies to the kinds of examples we're familiar with, then perhaps it applies equally well to strange examples such as those involving an afterlife or reincarnation.

i'm not sure if you all believe this or not ,but this life on Earth is a short pretty much anything we do here be will be gone in the future. Where do u think we come from? we can't just form from a molecule, thats dumb.If thats what happened how come we don't see it happening anywhere? I'm here to say something put us here on this earth and his name is God. memorys are here now but we wont remember anything we have ever done when were dead. Do you actually think we were mistakenly made for our corpses to rot. If molecules did form us how come the earth is so beatiful, same for the whole universe.I dont see any mistakes we were put on earth the only place with the right oxygen and everything else so that we can live on this wonderful planet. Memories are wonderful but when youre in Heaven everybody loves everyone and theres no memorys to think about.

Well, here's a topic which I can totally relate to.

Death, I strongly feel, is complete nothingness. Right now, you are simply just organic matter. Part of that organic matter is your very complexed brain where tiny electronic signals are constantly flowing through, just like a computer. Of course, you have your memory and consciousness.

Time is exactly what you said. Time is only our perception of memory constantly being stored into our brains with the most significant and recent things the most clear to us.

Now, when you die, it's over. Your electrons in your brain are done moving and there is no train of thought anymore. You're dead, organic matter. Complete nothingness. Just like when you were put under in the doctors office. You no longer exist, plain and simple.

Imagining nothingness comes very easy to me. For other people, it doesn't. I don't know why, but some people just can't understand what complete nothingness feels like.

You can't see it because it takes millions and billions of years. Like you said, "anything we do will be gone in the future." - Eventually, the sun will swell and the earth will pretty much disinegrate, and our solar sytem will freeze, and galaxies will collide... Whose to say that life isn't just something that happens once and a while, on some lucky planet, in some galaxies in our universe, over the span of infinite time? You think we're special, because your perception of time includes nothing but your lifetime... I will be the first one to admit that I can come nowhere even close to comprehending what just a few thousand years would "feel" like... let alone millions and billions...



The earth being beautiful is just our perceptions as human beings... just because we appreciate it, doesn't mean it was done on "purpose"... Did you ever think -we- developed around the -earth-... the earth didn't develop around -us-... We breathe oxygen because it was here... had life formed on another world, we would have deleloped to use whatever resources that planet had... I think in order to start understanding the universe, you have to stop thinking of "us" - human life - as the most important thing going on in the whole damned scheme of things.

I mean no offense, I'm just debating.

Hey so, I was checking out some other video snips, and here's one that totally supports the fact that life may not be a special as we'd like to think it is.. everything's just a formula, you know? I really really recommend this one.. it was intriguing.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/sciencenow/3214/01.html

all this is pickleing my brain - it makes my brain hurt to think of this!!!! LOL

What about the thousands of individuals that cross your path everyday, the stranger you sit beside in the bar that you took the time to talk a personal problem thru, etc...a teacher that made an impression upon you....your coack, scout leader...etc...
There are many many opportunities in which one can give "meaning" to his/her life.
We all tend, IMO, to look at family and friends first as we spend the most time and have the greatest opportunity to change because of our interactions with them, but your life is much...much more magnificance to it than that.

Do you remember what happened before you died?

If not, then there is no reason to connect memory to life after death in this way. You said it yourself memory goes backwards not forwards.

Look inward and you may just find your answer. I know I did.

Do you have freewill or no?

Well, everyone you interacted with in your short existance may remember you, but in the end they're all going to die too. Life on earth has been around for about 4 billion years, the average human lifespan is about 80 years, so ultimately you will have been alive for 1/50 millionth of the existance of life on earth. In the grand scheme, the individual's life is very insignificant not only in time, but in space as well. There are roughly 200 billion stars in our galaxy, Hubble estimates that there are hundreds of billions of galaxies in the known universe. That means that there are trillions apon trillions of stars and planets out there, and on many of the planets one would assume life would arise. In any way you look at it, no one is going to remember you... It's like remembering an atom that existed 3 billion years ago, it's insignificant.

Despite all this, I too believe in the importance of the individual, maybe one day human kind will become something more because of that mindset.

If memory looked fowards we would predict the future

But to go back to your memories wouldn't your brain have to still be functioning? And when your dead, your brain isnt functioning.

I agree wtih you about God etc. But, I beleive we do maintain memories (we are here to live and learn lessons that will help us later in heaven to grow spiritually) and I beleive all the bad feelings, memories etc. will be taken away, but I dont' think we forget everything. We remember family and pets and things like that too.

im a bit confused......

Just got back from vacation, so haven't had really a chance to respond to any replies.

It looks like my original idea has been taking past the area I was aiming at and moved into other topics and ideas. In no way did I mean to imply ideas of reincarnation, religious beliefs, or anything of that short. I just simply asked a "If so and so works this way, could it be possible for it to also work this way?" kind of question.

I'm not stating memory proves or shows there is something after death, I was merely sharing my constructive (or random) thoughts in hopes to spark interest.

xBananax,

Trying to stay on the subject I think you were implying - though it's a little difficult to tell from your first post lol.

You seem to be equating conscious recall of memory to proof of existence, please correct me if I'm wrong?

However memory and recall are 2 different things. I have no recall of much of what you would call 'routine life', this does not necessarily mean that I have no memory of these times however and I was definitely alive (prove me wrong if you dare)!

I don't think you have to have a conscious memory of a particular time in your life to know you exist(ed). To me memory is only part of your consciousness, not the whole.

As for saying that recalling your life memories after death validates your existence - well you are implying there is existence after death (and I'm not saying you're wrong) and that it 'works' in a similar way to our existence before death. While I'm no expert (who is) I'm not sure you can assume this, though you are very entitled to your opinion of course.

All this is only my opinion naturally. It's good to have joined UM where I can discuss so many topics with other seekers after knowledge.

That was interesting. Nice find

^^^
Ahh the day we create life like that we become the gods.