With this thread i would like to discuss the extent of ancient civilizations, they where far more advanced then we would ever be able to comprehend, African and Chinese did come to north america in the past(more than 4000 years ago) for trade and expantion, such as co-co and marijuana, but has never been able to be proven correct, in BC alone there are hundreds of sites that contain proof that others did trade with the natives here. do you beleive it is possible that ancient egyptians did come to north america, and if not why?they had boats that could sail the atlantic easily! so i beleive they where the first to discover NA
besides the asians that migrated over the ice bridge and became what we know today as CHINDIANS

I believe you are correct sir.

Why do you say it has never been proven correct and then in the same sentence you say there are sites that contain "proof". What is it you mean. Is there proof or isn't there - and if there is proof what is it? You can't say something proves something else without explaining what that proof is (or isn't as the case may be).

could you post links to the proof? just wondering

INDEED!
i am referring to the fact that pharoes had products that could only have come from north america such as cocain, and there are egyptian writings in canyons in canada.
i can only find sites that contain evidence that they where in arizona canyons but i have seen reports of writings in british columbia, but i cannot find any related articles

http://www.crystalinks.com/gc_egyptconnection.html

I wouldn't be so ready to point that page out as "proof" of anything.

Notice the very bottom of the page.Two statements are there which are very important:




...

Granted,there may have been a civilization which had traded all over the place,hence giving the rise to the "Atlantis" type stories.If there had been such a people,this would explain how some things had gotten to places so far away from their origin.

There is still a lot which we don't know about ancient history.Sooner or later though,we may find out more about ancient cultures and their abilities.

http://www.edensinstitute.com/OpinionofCivilization.htm

. Eric Higgs of Cambridge University has made a study of the migrations of ancient men, and claims that the first man of Europe came to that continent from central and east Africa about 250,000 years ago.

Professor Chester Chard, of the University of Wisconsin, has studied the routes of early men who left Africa to colonize the rest of the world. He has concluded that there were four prehistoric migration routes from Africa to Europe. (Introduction to African Civilization, p 50, J. G. Jackson)

King James' version of the bible states; "In the beginning God made one man, Adam, and one woman Eve." Genesis 2, 8: "And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed." Genesis 2, 10: "And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted and became into four heads." Verse 13: "And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia."

AFRICAN EXPANSION

Sir Flinders Petrie, professor of Egyptology, London, 1892--1933 excavated many sites in Egypt, Palestine and Stonehenge. Drawing on his findings, Drusilla Dunjee Houston wrote:

The excavation of Petrie revealed in Egypt the remains of a distinct race that preceded the historic Egyptians. The earliest civilization was higher than that of the later dynasties. Its purer art represents an 'Old Race' that fills all the background of the pre-historic ages. It colonized the first civilized centers of the primitive world. The ancients called this pioneer race, which lit the torch of art and science, Cush**e Ethiopians, the founders of primeval cities and civilized life. The wonders of India, the merchandise of Babylon, and the prehistoric civilization of Asia Minor, sprang from this little recognized source.

... another interesting idea....

from.... http://www.stewartsynopsis.com/blacked_out...h_whitewash.htm

Interestingly, the ancient Egyptians recorded the Tamahu, which means created white people. Egyptian writings also refer to whites as Typhonians or People of Seth, both meaning “the devils.” After these “white devils” were first released into the Black community of the Near East 6000 years ago, they caused sever strife, thus the Africans rounded them up, stripped them of everything and exiled them to the caves and hills of the Caucasus Mountains. This explains the sudden appearance of white people in this region. To prevent their escaping Africans installed a series of guarded walls blocking all exits along that area from one sea to the other!


Thus “roping” them off (hence the word Europe). These walls have been witnessed and recorded by many European writers, including Pliny. Thus, totally cut off from civilization, the whites degenerated into uncivilized, nomadic savages. They remained this way for 2000 years until ‘Allah mercifully sent an Egyptian priest named Musa or Moses to civilize them.’


This explains the otherwise unknown reason why suddenly about 2000 B.C., vast hordes of these white barbarians left the Caucasus region and stormed all the (Black) centers of civilizations throughout Mesopotamia, the Near East, Africa and India, destroying and usurping them. Thus, the Whiteman’s arrival signaled destruction for all these civilizations and the beginning of the Whiteman’s rise to power.


Whites proclaim their origin is Greek. Whites can avoid confronting the true meaning of skin whiteness as a mutation and genetic deficiency state from the Black norm - the ‘hue-man’ norm’... Deep within the unconscious psyche of the white collective is an awareness; of their origin amongst Blacks, that Blacks were their parents and that they (whites) were the offspring of Blacks who suffered from the skin condition of Albinism.”





'Half of writing history is hiding the truth'

http://www.cqagri.gov.cn/english/aboutcq2.asp

The Ba-Yu civilization is an important integral part of the Chinese civilization.

Archaeological findings show that some 2,040,000 to 2,010,000 years ago, some ancient ape-men, named as "the Wushan Man", lived in today's Wushan area. They were one of the earliest hominids in the world ever found by archaeologists. Some 20,000 years ago, forefathers of Chongqing people lived and worked on this fertile land, and "the Daxi Culture" in east Chongqing and "the Tongliang Culture" in west Chongqing were typical representatives of cultures of the Old Stone Age and the New Stone Age respectively.


then..

http://www.china.org.cn/e-gudai/index-1.htm

...then...

http://www.mystae.com/streams/ufos/emperor.html

http://www.china.org.cn/english/2003/Jun/66806.htm

Was the Sampo in Tibet?

print this

By Jussi Ahlroth

M. A. Castrén (1813-1853) was thrilled.Pandita Khenpo Lama, the head lama of the Buryats, had told him about a revered temple in Tibet, which was older than the other temples, and was called Sampo.
The Tibetan name Sang-phu meant the secret source of all happiness, which is exactly what the Sampo was in the Finnish national epic, the Kalevala.
Finland lacked a mythical history in the 1800’s, and what could be better than a link to the great history of China and Tibet?The newspaper Suometar published an article on the subject immediately. Castrén writes about the incident himself in his book Nordiska resor och forskningar ("Nordic Travels and Studies").

Now, 160 years later, the makers of Jade Warrior refer to Castrén’s finding – the man apparently went even further than Elias Lönnrot. He imagined mysterious, forgotten connections between Finland and China, which are dug up in the film.

Except that no such connection ever existed.
Castrén heard what he wished to hear. The Mongolian Sang-phu was just another monastery. It was indeed old, founded in 1071, but many Tibetan monasteries are 300 years older.

What made Sang-phu so special in Mongolia?
They practiced the same form of Buddhism as in the Sang-phu monastery. The Head Lama was only blowing his own whistle. It was nothing greater than that. There was no Sampo in Tibet either.

http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Was+the+S...t/1135222205715

One of the oldest symbols made by humans, the swastika dates back some 6,000 years to rock and cave paintings. Scholars generally agree it originated in India. With the emergence of the Sanskrit language came the term "swastika", a combination of "su", or good, and "asti", to be; in other words, well-being.

There's no clear answer on how the figure migrated to other parts of Asia, Europe, Africa and the New World. Early examples of swastikas on pottery and household objects in China indicate that the swastika traveled with traders and with the spread of Buddhism throughout Asia. According to Jim Clarke, an ancient Asian art expert and owner of Clarke & Clarke Asian Antiques and Tribal Art in Santa Fe, early Christian inhabitants of India and Iran used the swastika as an amulet or protective device. "In the 17th century, India and Iran were exotic places to Europeans," Clarke remarks. "Things brought back from these countries were viewed as exotic. To incorporate these symbols was considered very avant."


Detail from large Germantown
pictorial Navajo rug c1890
Courtesy of
Sherwoods Spirit of America

Clarke is intrigued by the notion that the swastika might have made its way from China to the New World with Chinese traders lost on the seas. Remains of Chinese vessels have been excavated in coastal communities in South America, he says, and along with them the goods they carried. Another theory goes that the swastika traveled with Asians who crossed the land bridge to Alaska and migrated southward to become the indigenous people of North and South America, bringing with them the magic symbols they considered crucial to their health and well-being.

http://www.collectorsguide.com/fa/fa086.shtml

At last, at least a thousand million years ago, a mass of rigid rock lifted its crystal back above the waters and remained.
About three hundred million years ago, Primal Africa was connected with South America, India, and Australia. As the ocean basins dropped, the eastern half of Africa slowly raised into a broad, flat arch.
The eastern side of this arch gave way, forming the Indian Ocean; and the roof of the arch fell in where the great Rift Valley appeared. This enormous crack extends six thousand miles...all the great East African lakes lie in the main rift, and doubtless the Red Sea and the Sea of Galilee.
Whither does humanity first show itself on the earth's crust, on what continent are the oldest hominid fossils? In Africa. But Africa wasn't always just Africa; it formed along with South America and Asia an ancient united continent, or Gondwanaland.

http://ftp.wi.net/~maracon/lesson10.html


and ancient bead trading thru-out the world....

http://www.beaded-baubles.com/Historyofbeads.htm

I seem to recall reading a few articles which suggested that cocaine found in Egyptian mummies (which is presumed could only have come from South/Central America) did not necessarily mean the Egyptians were trading directly with civilisations in S/C America.

If the Far Eastern civilisations of that time were able to navigate to the Americas - by coastal sailing meaning the only open stretch of water they would have to cross is the Bering Strait) they could have acted as initiators for a cocaine trade that went via suncontinental Asia to the Middle East to Egypt.

You do not have to presume that each (or any) civilisation had the capability to traverse the globe to realise there could still have been a near-global trading network in ancient times.

I will try to find links to these articles but if others know or have them already perhaps they could post them?

OK. Found this link for a general discussion of the evidence for cocaine in Egyptian mummies. A bit disappointed the author still assumes direct trans-atlantic trading is occurring but there is good info here otherwise. Will continue looking for other links.

http://www.andrewcollins.com/page/articles/romanbust.htm


http://www.antiguasun.com/paper/?as=view&a...06&ac=Local


http://www.allempires.com/forum/printer_fr...s.asp?TID=14470

http://otlichnik.tripod.com/medmace0.html

Dr. Betty Meggers of the Smithsonian Institution, in a major article published in March 1975, proposed that the Olmec [an ancient and major pre-Mayan culture in Mesoamerica] development originated by direct transmission of key elements of culture across the Pacific Ocean from China during its Shang period (1750-1100 B.C.), when the Chinese tradition first took on its characteristic pattern [1]. Earlier, Meggers and her husband, Dr. Clifford Evans, had discovered that certain early pottery fragments from Ecuador on South America's west coast were indistinguishable from ceramics found in Japan before 3000 B.C. They proposed that voyagers had reached Ecuador from Asia by boat [2]. In another article they discussed possibilities of sea travel across the north Pacific, where the Japan current sweeps up near the Aleutian Islands and Alaska before paralleling the California coast on the way south [3]. Historical accounts from the last century report many Japanese fishing boats being blown out to sea, with survivors landing on the west coast of North America, so a crossing was possible. Meggers and Evans concluded that purposeful voyaging would have been feasible thousands of years ago. The rate of the current is such that a trip from Japan to west Mexico could have been made by a rather simple vessel in approximately a year [4]. Furthermore, the earliest pottery we know of in Mesoamerica, which may date as early as 3000 B.C., is located on the west Mexican coast, near Acapulco [5]. Various researchers have challenged Meggers and Evans's interpretation, but it remains a serious possibility to prominent students of the subject. Robert Heine-Geldern, David H. Kelley, Paul Tolstoy, and George F. Carter are among those who have argued in professional circles that we should look to transoceanic sources in order to explain fully how civilization originated in Mesoamerica [6]. Indiana University's Harold K. Schneider has most recently argued that any explanation for the rise of America's high civilizations that fails to involve the movement of cultures across the oceans is weak theoretically [7]. Increasingly, some anthropologists and archaeologists - though still a minority - are mustering evidence to show that early voyagers from the Old World could, and probably did, cross the ocean and settle in the New. Mormons have been saying that since 1829.
(Sorenson, 1985, pp. 110-110).


http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/smithsonian.shtml


Also.....

http://www.askwhy.co.uk/analogiesandconjec...icaphoen01.html


If that was not enough, it turned out that the results from the Munich mummies were not the only evidence from the dead. Balabanova, alongside her normal research into the metabolism of drugs, started requesting samples of other ancient human remains from universities. She got more results from Egypt.

She tested tissue from 134 naturally preserved bodies from an excavated cemetery in the Sudan, once part of the Egyptian empire. Although from a later period, the bodies were still many centuries before Columbus discovered the Americas. About a third of them tested positive for nicotine and cocaine.

Balabanova was mystified by the presence of cocaine in Africa but thought she might have a way of explaining the nicotine. As well as Egypt and the Sudan, she tested bodies from China, Germany and Austria, spanning a period from 3700 BC to 1100 AD. A percentage of bodies from all these other regions also contained nicotine.

The percentage of bodies with positive result for nicotine were Egypt:89%; Sudan:90%; China:62.5%; Germany:34%; Austria 100%. After 3000 samples it seemed certain that the tobacco plant was known in Europe and Africa long before Columbus.

Far from being solved, the mystery that began in Egypt was spreading. Balabanova was suggesting that an unknown type of tobacco had grown in Europe, Africa and Asia thousands of years ago. But every schoolchild knows that tobacco was discovered in the New World. She was asking for a substantial slice of botany and history to be completely rewritten. Would anyone back her up?

Dr Balabonova thought the secret of the mysterious presence of nicotine and cocaine in Egyptan mummies was in the ancient plants of Africa. Perhaps there had been drug plants which the Egyptians had used but had vanished along with their civilisation. This led to a much more basic question. Were the Egyptians, the great Pharaohs and pyramid builders really users and abusers of drugs?

The clues can be found hidden in the walls of the grand temple of Karnak. The entire building is covered in depictions of the lotus flower from the tops of the vast columns to the pictograms on the walls. Until recently, Egyptologists took this most commonplace Egyptian symbol to have only a religious meaning. But, according to some, the true significance of the lotus has been overlooked.

The lotus was a very powerful narcotic which was used in ancient Egypt and presumably, was widespread in this use, because we see many scenes of idividuals holding a cup and dropping a lotus flower into the cup which contained wine, and this would be a way of releasing the narcotic.

The ancient Egyptians certainly used drugs. As well as lotus they had mandrake and cannabis, and there is a strong suggestion the also used opium. So although it very surprising to find cocaine in mummies, the other elements were certainly in use."

So the Pharaohs clearly indulged in drugs. Hashish—which Balabanova also found in the mummies—is an Egyptian tradition which has survived for thousands of years, although nowadays, in public, pipes tend to be filled with nothing more than tobacco.

By contrast, the narcotic blue lotus flower, once so essential at parties, is now on the verge of extinction. And if it could disappear, why not other drug plants? Balabanova’s unusual theory that an ancient species of tobacco might once have grown in the Old World needed examination.

Small amounts of nicotine are present in a wide variety of plants and foods, but the high concentrations sought by smokers can only be found in tobacco. Concentrations of nicotine in bone samples of modern smokers in nanograms/gram: China: 55; Germany: 65; Sudan: 45. Egyptian Mummies exceeded all these by 35 times!

The idea of a lost species of tobacco came to Balabanova because the concentrations in the bodies from Asia and Europe were similar to modern day smokers. But one thing had puzzled her. At 35 times the dose for smokers, the amounts of nicotine she had found in Egyptian mummies were potentially lethal.

But first, Balabanova was baffled, but then she had a thought. The high doses of nicotine in Egyptian bodies could be explained if the tobacco—as well as being consumed—had also been used in mummification.

Over their 3000 year history the Egyptian preists kept the recipe of spices and herbs used to preerve the thousands of people and millions of animals they mummified a closely guarded secret. The high levels of nicotine in tobacco can kill bacteria. Could it have been one of their secrets?

Balabanova looked through old literature about the bodies of the great Pharaohs and queens themselves. No longer under the care of the priests the fragile royal mummies are now kept in strict atmospheric conditions in the Cairo museum. But Balabanova discovered a story from the days when scientists could still tamper with them—a story that had almost been forgotten.

Rameses II died in 1213 BC, a few hundred years before Henut Taui. When he was mummified, every possible skill and every rare ingredient was used by the embalmers to try to preserve his body for eternity. For where Henut Tuai was only a preistess, Ramses was arguably the mightiest of all the Pharaohs. His imposing image adorns most of Egypt’s famous sites for he presided over the Golden Age of its civilisation, and as a skilled military commander, won the conquests that made it into a powerful empire.

Smoking Archaeologists
What interested Balabanova was what happened to Rameses 3000 years later, when he went on his final royal visit. On september 26th, 1976, amid all the pomp and circumstance—due a visiting head of state—French TV cameras recorded the arrival of the mummy of Rameses II at an airport in Paris. An exhibition about him at the museum of mankind was planned. But the body was found to be badly deteriorated, so a battery of scientist set about trying to repair this damage.

In the mesoamerican site of Monte Alban there exists sculptures of what is believed to Egyptians and Cleopatra.

Cleopatra was a big nosed kinky curly haired Greek.
Perhaps it is Neith-iqeret.

M. Brendon Francklyn noted this remarkable link with the Mayan tradition of Central America, for, on the head of one of the High Priests or Gods standing before the Altar of the Temple of the Foliated Cross of Palenque, is seen growing a tobacco plant. Francklyn wrote Did Tobacco Originate In Africa? for the April 1949 issue of Atlantis. Francklyn noticed this decoration on more than one figure of Priest or God in the Mexican Codices. Mayan ancestors maintain that many thousands of years prior to their recorded history, they landed on the coast of what is now Florida, fleeing from some land in the east.
At the time of the Spanish conquest, the Maya occupied the whole peninsula of Yucatan, territory south of it including Chiapas, the highlands of Guatemala, and the western fringes of Honduras and El Salvador. The Maya did not constitute a homogeneous group, several dialects were spoken, and there were great divisions between the highland and lowland stock. The most advanced cultural achievements were those attained by the lowland Maya of the Peten and Usumacinta forest areas. It is in this region that the architectural/ceremonial complexes were situated including Palenque, Copan, Tikal, Uaxactum, Chich’en Itza, Uxmal, and Quirigua. They were deserted, approximately, by AD 900. The book, Cites Maya by Paul Rivet, was reviewed in the October 1957 issue of New World Antiquity by G. Kutscher. Back to section top.
The interest in the passage of time shown by the Maya is demonstrated by the fact that records relating to it were inscribed on stelae, stairways, cornices, friezes, and panels, and is so prominent in their iconography — possibly indicating an underlying motivation transcending that for merely agricultural purposes. An epoch of great significance to the Maya is 3114 BC, possibly due to the mythological significance of the number, as the Maya believed that the fifth and last recreation of the world took place at this time. Perhaps an event of astronomical, and possible terrestrial importance, was experienced or observed at this time?

http://www.seachild.net/new232932.html

?????
http://www.marijuanaalternatives.com/blue-lotus.htm

Crystal sage,

If the Palenque stela M. Francklyn is referring to is this one, then I'm afraid the god is growing a maize plant, not tobacco. I don't know how many stelae there are at the site in Palenque though, so if it is another I would appreciate a link.

I would not completely discount an African origin for tobacco and I've not read M. Francklyn's book on this. If tobacco did originate in Africa then it is possible it was traded to the American civilisations for cocaine before the plant became extinct in Africa. I must admit I do consider this scenario less likely than the probable origin of tobacco being the America's.

Cocaine however has only been able to be extracted from the coca plant of the America's, not from any of the other family members growing in other locations around the world. If Dr Balabanova was correct (and the evidence is fairly strong) then this is a strong indicator that trans-continental trade with America was taking place in the pre-BC era.

http://farms.byu.edu/display.php?table=jbms&id=356


Proof for one complex of plants involved a particularly wide array of research methods. To the amazement of some scientists and the consternation of others, chemical evidence of tobacco has been found in ancient Egyptian mummies, although tobacco was supposed to be unknown in the Old World prior to Columbus. First, fragments of tobacco were found deep in the abdominal cavity of the 3200-year-old mummy of Pharaoh Ramses II while it was being studied in a European museum. Some skeptics immediately concluded that this had to be due to modern contamination in the museum. This American plant could not possibly have been known in Egypt, they insisted. In 1992 physical scientists in Germany used sophisticated laboratory instrumentation to test nine other Egyptian mummies. They found chemical residues of tobacco, coca (another American plant, the source of cocaine), and the Asian native hashish (the source of marijuana) in the hair, soft tissues, skin, and bones of eight of the mummies. These traces included cotinine, a chemical whose presence means that the tobacco had been consumed and metabolized while the deceased person was alive. (The ninth mummy contained coca and hashish residues but not tobacco.) Dates of the corpses according to historical records from Egypt ranged from 1070 BC to AD 395,43 indicating that these drugs were continuously available to some Egyptians for no less than 1,450 years. Investigators have since found evidence of the drugs in additional mummies from Egypt.44

Equally startling has been the discovery of the same drugs in Peruvian mummies that date back to at least AD 100. Chemical analysis revealed the use of tobacco and cocaine (not surprisingly, since the former was widely used in the Americas and the latter comes from the South American plant Erythroxylon novagranatense, commonly known as coca). But hashish was also used in Peru, although it is from Asian Cannabis sativa.45 Furthermore, two species of beetles that infested Egyptian mummies—Alphitobius diaperinus and Stegobium paniceum—have also been found in mummies in Peru.46 It is impossible to avoid the conclusion that intentional voyages across an ocean were involved in these transfers.

As to motives that impelled transoceanic travelers, the utilitarian, economic viewpoint that dominates so much of our thought today would lead us to suppose that a search for new sources of food and fiber would have been the obvious reason for ancient voyagers to undertake distant, dangerous explorations. But looking carefully at our entire list of plants, we are somewhat surprised to learn that utility seems to have been less important than we would suppose. While some of the American plants were indeed useful additions to the diet or made serviceable artifacts, virtually all the transported species served medicinal functions. Perhaps just as spices were a prime motivation for Europeans of the 15th and 16th centuries to undertake arduous travel to reach the islands of Southeast Asia, pre-Columbian voyagers may have sought after cures to relieve disease or nostrums that they hoped would lengthen their life span. Then again, a sufficient motive to impel long-distance sailors may simply have been curiosity—what Mary Helms has labeled "the Ulysses factor,"47 the sheer desire to see "what is out there."



Ancient Seafaring Technology

A question naturally arises as to whether vessels and nautical skills were available to account for the early voyages. Contrary to the picture we were once taught about "primitive" sailors timidly avoiding the open sea until an intrepid Columbus made a breakthrough, evidence now clearly establishes that sailors long ago ventured widely. As long ago as 50,000 bp (before the present), Australia's first settlers reached that continent across as much as 95 miles (150 km) of open sea, and the Solomon Islands were populated from 105 miles (170 km) away by 29,000 years ago.62 Balsa-log rafts (functionally they were steerable "ships," not what we think of under the term rafts) like the Kon Tiki vessel of Thor Heyerdahl were preceded by early Ecuadoran craft that sailed up and down the Pacific coast of South and Middle America apparently from 2000 BC on.63 However, they, in turn, were modeled on rafts of unknown age from China and Southeast Asia.64 Three modern replicas of pre-Columbian rafts constructed in Ecuador in the traditional form were sailed in 1974 as a fleet over 9,000 miles to Australia.65 Many other craft, some of them remarkably small and "primitive,"66 have been sailed in modern times across various ocean routes; one veteran small-craft sailor reports that "it takes a damned fool to sink a boat on the high seas."67

http://farms.byu.edu/display.php?table=jbms&id=356

Good link Crystal. Thanks

Although I did find some of the authors conclusions...ummm... over-enthusiastic I suppose is a good way of putting it. An example would be using the word 'carriage' instead of dispersion or diffusion when listing plant species which have a presumed origin on one continent but were later recorded on another. The word implies an intent yet, for some of these species at least, an accidental dispersion cannot be dismissed.

For goods which would presumably have had a very high value in the ancient world, and cocaine would be an example, a high-risk/high-reward, lengthy journey may have been worthwhile for some traders. This would explain why more common items such as craftworks would not necessarily have been transported for trade.

just found this.....

Gonzalez, a geoarchaeologist, and her colleagues at Liverpool John Moores University in England radiocarbon-dated the skull and found its beauty was more than bone deep. Surprising many, the analysis showed Peñon Woman III is 12,755 years old, older than any known ancestor of modern Native Americans. Based on skull comparisons, Gonzalez announced in September, she believes Peñon Woman III was an ancestor of the Pericu,

Dr Silvia Gonzalez conducted a study of ancient bones found in Mexico and found that they have very different characteristics to Native Americans. Some of the ancient skulls she has looked at are more than 12,000 years old.

These skulls have long and narrow heads that are very different from the short, broad skulls of today’s Native Americans.

"We think there were several migration waves into the Americas at different times by different human groups."

She said there was very strong evidence that the first migration came from Australia via Japan and Polynesia and down the Pacific coast of America.

Dr Gonzalez said the research would be controversial. "[Native Americans] cannot claim to have been the first people there," Dr Gonzalez said.

She also hinted that DNA recovered from Penon Woman would corroborate measurements of the skulls. "We have extracted her DNA. It is going to be a bomb," Dr Gonzalez commented.

If proved correct, the findings might have implications for US legislation that covers the return of Native American remains and artifacts to present-day tribes.

Recently, a coalition of native tribes lost their claim to the remains of Kennewick Man, a 9,000-year-old skeleton found in Washington State. The case was won by a group of scientists who wanted access to the remains for study. Like Penon Woman, Kennewick Man is doliocephallic. George Gill, a forensic anthropologist at the University of Wyoming and one of the plaintiffs in the Kennewick Man case, said evidence indicated that seafaring people from southeast Asia or Polynesia could have reached the Americas by traveling along the Pacific Rim, landing somewhere in what is now South America. Gill also said an ancient European people could also have reached the northeast corner of North America.

Europeans and Africans BC (Before Columbus)?

In Atlantis In America: Navigators of the Ancient World Zapp and I documented the presence of Mediterranean and African faces sculpted into stone throughout MesoAmerica. The 3,000 year old Olmec carved faces at La Venta (Mexico) are unmistakably African, with broad lips, broad noses, braided hair and kinky beards. The 2,000 year old carved faces at Maya sites like Chichen Itza (Yucatan) and El Ceibal (Guatemala) are unmistakably Mediterranean as they display long narrow faces, long beards and bushy mustaches – features very unlike the Maya. Stone stelae at Copan (Honduras) display Chinese features, while the 15 foot tall statues at Tula (Valley of Mexico) display the features of Polynesians. It now appears that all these diverse people were coming to the heart of the Americas from 1,500 to at least 15,000 years ago. The complex origins of the first Americans has also been confirmed by DNA studies that have revealed the presence of haplogroup X among Algonkian-speaking tribes such as the Ojibway. Today, haplogroup X is found in between two and four per cent of European populations, and in the Middle East, but it has never been found in northeast Asian peoples.

The question is no longer, "Did navigators come to the New World before Columbus and Lief Erikson?" The question is when did they stop coming, and why did they lose all memory of man’s navigational past? In Europe the answer may be tied to the onset of the Dark and Middle Ages. We are becoming inured to catastrophic events of late. But what event caused the Dark ages to begin and the history of navigation and other knowledge to become lost? The answer to that question still eludes us.

http://www.paranormalnews.com/article.asp?ArticleID=1127

"The question is no longer, "Did navigators come to the New World before Columbus and Lief Erikson?" The question is when did they stop coming, and why did they lose all memory of man’s navigational past? In Europe the answer may be tied to the onset of the Dark and Middle Ages. We are becoming inured to catastrophic events of late. But what event caused the Dark ages to begin and the history of navigation and other knowledge to become lost? The answer to that question still eludes us.
"


Do you think that religion......and their power to rewrite history... political censorship etc...could be the reason why most history is lost.....???

I'm certain that religion, like politics, has influenced what is known in the historical sense. I also think that climate, geology and the relative level of cultural and technological advancement have had a much greater impact on our knowledge our the ancient past.

I have seen the reports of the South-to-North migration in the America's before and am open-minded given that evidence is starting to be found to support the hypothesis. I have no doubt that ancient humans were much more proficient travellers than has been previously suspected - witness the migration of the Polynesians across the Pacific using what is, in effect, stone age technology. However physical evidence has been impossible to find to verify this due in part to their low level of advancement meaning they could not create enduring works of architecture or language (except for oral traditions which have been readily dismissed).

It is only lately, with the advancements in genetics and DNA mapping, that we have been able to ally groups of peoples with their ancestry.

Lol !!!1 I gather they were all potheads in the old days...
http://zzco.org/z/chris_bennett/smoke_in_my_i.html

An ancient letter written at the time of the Assyrian King Assurbanipal states:


We were dead dogs, but our lord the king gave us life by placing the herb of life under our noses.16
The comment `Dead Dogs', can be seen to mean the lack of self-reflection, something that was instilled in the ancient worshippers by the scent of `the herb of life'. Interestingly, archeological evidence indicates that cannabis inhalation in ancient Mesopotamia had been taking place long before this archaic letter had been written.

Ramses the Great Trader

Ramses the Great was a Godking, he won no election to gain control over Egypt. He fathered 100 children over a 67 year reign of pomp and PR that has not since been duplicated, not even in California. He built a full-sized "off limits" royal city for his enormous family and court, and had beautiful pleasure gardens and orchards planted within. He divided his private city into four quarters, with a presiding deity over each quarter. The Eastern Sector was dedicated to the Syrian Goddess Astarte, installed at the last minute to satisfy a vogue for Asian deities Ð and their zonky sensual personalities. Note that the worship of Astarte was often associated with the ritual use of cannabis in the Ancient world.

The stability that Ramses projected inspired Egyptians to re-assert their aims of world trade, and several voyages of discovery followed. It is very likely that the Godking established trade and contact with other centers of civilization and swapped toys with other Godkings who could boast shimmering cities, sleek trade fleets and a degree of ritualized social code.

From Mexico, the Aztek/Toltek Godkings would have sacred tobacco to share. From South America, the divine coca leaf, and from South East Asia, the dreamy cannabis resin. All of these drugs were regarded as the special reserve for the divine rulers in the realms where these plants originated.

Tobacco and coca contain potent alkaloids that can be preserved almost indefinitely. Cannabis, which does not develop psychoactive alkaloids, instead produces a euphoric resin that can be stored without losing potency for a very long time (Hashish from an ancient shipwreck in the Mediterranean Sea was found to be potent when tested, more than 2000 years later!)

Professor Martin Bernal, historian at Cornell University, is one of the new breed of scientists who are willing to consider magic plants and ancient trade links. "We're getting more and more evidence of world trade at an earlier stage." He points out the discovery of a single strand of Chinese silk mingled in the hair of an Egyptian mummy, 12,000 years old. Silk was very rare in China at that point of history Ð only the Emperors wore it. How did silk get to Egypt? How did drugs get to Egypt? How do drugs get anywhere that people live?

This story is not yet finished, and the outcome may well overturn some of the narrower visions of how humans go about a human experience on this world.

By Dr Alexander Sumach

http://www.cannabisculture.com/backissues/...gmas/index.html

This thread reminds me of the Los Lunas Decalogue in New Mexico. The stone has the Ten Commandments inscribed in mostly Phonecian (Old Hebrew). When it was found - or I should say discovered by the scientific community as the Natives knew about it long before, they didn't even have linguists who could decipher it. The one in Los Lunas could be 2000 years old. There are other Decalogue stones like the one found in Ohio that are just as fascinating. Wood fragments found with the Ohio stone carbon dated to somewhere between 32 A.D. and 769 A.D.

I'm too lazy to provide all the links, but they can be found in the thread here.

now was this stone el loco or from another continent?

Tobacco and coca contain potent alkaloids that can be preserved almost indefinitely. Cannabis, which does not develop psychoactive alkaloids, instead produces a euphoric resin that can be stored without losing potency for a very long time (Hashish from an ancient shipwreck in the Mediterranean Sea was found to be potent when tested, more than 2000 years later!)

i find it hard that they smoked 2000 year old history hash......but if they did....
good on them...

this will have to remain a unsolved mystery for some time!!
thank you crystal and leonardo i enjoyed your info and it helped me have a better understanding in this subject, please if you get anymore info feel free,

The Los Lunas stone was believed to be quarried from the mesa above if memory serves me. I believe it was moved a short distance and the stone was broken and they believe this may be why it was not used for it's original purpose. The stone lays where it was found because it weighs an estimated 80-100 tons.

The Ohio stone is small so it is difficult to say, it could have been brought here or it could even be a forgery - though the man who found the stones isn't thought to be educated enough to do the work. They were found in the mid 1800's.

Doesn't el loco mean "the crazy one"?

Canadians dont do well in spanish essay!
and your post has no relevance to what my original post has to do with?!!!

Sorry, just being lazy. If you check the links on the other page you'll see the relevance. The basic theory of the researchers that believe the stones to be around 2000 years old goes something like this... bear with me, I may not be exact as it's been awhile.

Basically the idea is that the stone was carved around 2000 years ago by ancient settlers likely from Egypt or another civilization similarly advanced in the art of seamanship. The term "Decalogue" means "The Ten Commandments", and that's what was carved on the stones found in the U.S. If indeed they are 2000 years old, and in North America, it indicates travelers from overseas came here much earlier than the history books tell us. They believe the stone was carved as a decorative entryway which was traditional for churches at the time. Because many of the symbols used were not all Semaritin but had Greek (and maybe other) symbols thrown in, they believe whoever made the rock was using knowledge they picked up in various ports of call. Many researchers believe the travelers may have been lost Jewish peoples traveling from Egypt or somewhere in that reigon. Alot of the speculation about the Ohio stone has been focused on the lost tribes of Israel. The Lost Tribes of Israel were "lost" around 721 BC, fascinating reading. Nobody knows where they went but it's interesting to think they may have ended up in North America.

yah that is pretty cool if it is.

...Surprisingly...Recently I've found lots of interesting pre-history of America in Mormon Literature..I'll see if I can find the sites again...anyway this mentions the same idea....

http://solomonspalding.com/Lib/hob1946a.htm


"Solomon Spaulding was born at Ashford, Connecticut, in 1761, was graduated from Dartmouth College in 1785, studied divinity, preached a few years and then, from ill health, gave up the ministry. Spaulding was a peculiar man, of fine education, especially devoted to historical study, and with a great fondness for writing romances. In 1812 he resided in Conneaut, Ashtabula county, Ohio. The great mounds in the vicinity aroused the curiosity of Spaulding who caused excavations to be made and it is said his workers found skeletons and other relics of a prehistoric race. On these discoveries and with a good imagination Spaulding wrote his "Manuscript Found," which he called a translation from some hieroglypgical writing exhumed from the mound. This romance purported to be a history of the peopling of America by the lost tribes of Israel, the tribes and their leaders having very singular names among which were Mormon, Maroni, Lamenite, and Nephi. The work of Spaulding's was written in 1812, and the manuscript was read to a circle of admiring friends. They thought it was good and he decided to publish it and carried it for this purpose to Patterson, a printer at Pittsburgh, Pa. After keeping it for a time Patterson returned it to Spaulding with the advice to polish it up, finish it, and make some money out of it. At the time the manuscript was in the possession of Patterson he had in his employ Sidney Rigdon, who twenty years later was a well known preacher among the Mormons.

In 1823, Joseph Smith, the possessor of a seer stone, made his living by wandering ...."

http://solomonspalding.com/SRP/saga2/sagawt0b.htm
http://www.the-book-of-mormon.com/dna-evidence.html

I know little about Mormons but enough to understand the connections. Interesting reading!

Out of place artifacts fascinate me. This site has some weird stuff found in the states that shouldn't be here. (TURN SPEAKERS OFF!!!) Most of it seems pretty fake, but if even a couple of the items are authentic...

weirder still!!!

Exhibit G) S. A. Jordan (Arizona Gazette Newspaper © Monday April 5th 1909)
http://www.cyberspaceorbit.com/text/0000tx09x.html

A brilliant article! Unfortunately the Smithsonian institute has since covered it all up, never-the-less, this article is real and it got me on my research quest into the subterranean realm! See attached scan and abbreviated article below:

http://netmar.com/~maat/archive/nov2/gazette.htm

Headline:

“Explorations in Grand Canyon”

“Mysteries of immense rich cavern being brought to light. Jordon is enthused. Remarkable finds indicate ancient people migrated from the orient.” [migrated underground from central Asia—GJ]

“Nearly a mile underground, about 1480 feet below the surface, the long main passage has been delved into, to find another mammoth chamber from which radiates scores of passageways, like the spokes of a wheel. Several hundred rooms have been discovered, reached by passageways running from the main passage, one of them having been explored for 854 feet and another 634 feet.



http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/hercolob...rcolobus_27.htm


The recent finds include articles which have never been known as native to this country and doubtless they had their origin in the Orient. War weapons, copper instruments sharp edged and hard as steel, indicate the high state of civilization reached by these strange people. So interested have the scientists become that preparations are being made to equip the camp for extensive studies and the force will be increased to thirty or forty persons. Before going further into the cavern, better facilities for lighting have to be installed, for the darkness is dense and impenetrable for the average flash light. In order to avoid being lost, wires are being strung from the entrance to all passageways leading directly to large chambers. How far this cavern extends no one can guess, but it is now the belief of many that what has already been explored is merely the "Barracks", to use an American term, for the soldiers, and that far into the underworld will be found the main communal dwellings of the families and possibly other shrines. The perfect ventilation of the cavern, the steady drought that blows through, indicates that it has another outlet to the surface.

The Passages

The main passageway is about 12 feet wide, narrowing to 9 feet toward the farther end. About 57 feet from the entrance, the first passages branch off to the right and left, along which, on both sides, are a number of rooms about the size of ordinary living rooms of today, though some are 30 to 40 feet square.

These are entered by oval shaped doors and are ventilated by round air spaces through the walls into the passages. The walls are about 3 feet 6 inches in thickness. The passages are chiseled or hewn as straight as could be laid out by any engineer. The ceilings of many of the rooms converge to a center. The side passages near the entrance run at a sharp angle from the main hall, but toward the rear they gradually reach a right angle in direction".

The Shrine

Over a hundred feet from the entrance is a cross-hall, several hundred feet long, in which was found the idol, or image, of the peoples god, sitting cross-legged, with a Lotus flower or Lily in each hand. The cast of the face is Oriental, and the carving shows a skillful hand, and the entire is remarkably well preserved, as is everything in this cavern. The idol most resembles Buddha, though the scientists are not certain as to what religious worship it represents. Taking into consideration everything found thus far, it IS POSSIBLE THAT THE WORSHIP MOST RESEMBLES THE ANCIENT PEOPLE OF THIBET. [See Exhibit H. Ferdinand Ossendowski Beasts, Men and Gods ©1922] Surrounding this idol are smaller images, some beautiful in form, other crooked necked and distorted shapes, symbolical, probably, of good and evil. There are two large cacti with protruding arms, one on each side of the dais on which the god squats. All this is carved out of hard rock resembling marble.

In the opposite corner of this cross-hall were found tools of all descriptions, made of copper. This people undoubtedly knew the lost art of hardening this metal, which has been sought by chemists for centuries without result. On a bench running around the workroom was some charcoal and other material probably used in the process. There is also slag and stuff similar to matte, showing that these ancient peoples smelted ores, but so far, no trace of where of how this was done has been discovered, nor the origin of the ore. Among other finds are vases or urns and cups of copper and gold made very artistic in design. The pottery work includes enameled ware and glazed vessels.

Another passageway leads to granaries such as are found in the Oriental temples. They contain seeds of various kinds. One very large storehouse has not been entered, as it is twelve feet high and can be reached only from above. Two copper hooks extend on the edge, (continued on page 7) which indicates that some sort of ladder was attached. These granaries are rounded and the materials of which they are constructed, I think, is a very hard cement. A grey metal is also found in this cavern which puzzles the scientists, for it’s identity has not been established. It resembles platinum. Strewn promiscuously over the floor everywhere are what people call "Cats eyes" or "Tiger eyes", a yellow stone of no great value. Each one is engraved with a head of a Malay type."

The Hieroglyphics

On all the urns, on the walls over the doorways and tablets of stone which were found by the image are mysterious hieroglyphics, the key to which the Smithsonian Institution hopes yet to discover. These writings resemble those found on the rocks about this valley. The engraving on the tablets probably has something to do with the religion of the people, Similar hieroglyphics have been found in the peninsula of Yucatan, but these are not found in the Orient. Some believe that these cave dwellers built the old canals in the Salt River valley. Among the pictorial writings only two animals are found. One is of prehistoric type".

The Crypt

The tomb or crypt in which the mummies are found is one of the largest of the chambers, the walls slanting back at an angle of about 35 degrees. One these are tiers of mummies, each one occupying a separate hewn shelf. At the head of each is a small bench on which is found copper cups and pieces of broken swords. Some of the mummies are covered with clay and all are wrapped in a bark fabric. The urns or cups on the lower tiers are crude, while as the higher shelves are reached, the urns are finer in design showing a interstage of civilization. It is worthy of note that all the mummies examined so far have proved to be male, no children or females being buried here. This leads to the belief that this interior section was the warriors barracks.

Among the discoveries no bones of animals have been found, no skins, no clothing nor bedding. Many of the rooms are bare but for the water vessels. One room, about 400 by 700 feet, was probably the main dining hall for cooking utensils are found here. What these people lived on is a problem, though it is presumed that they came south for the winter and farmed in the valleys, going back north in the summer. Upwards of 50,000 people could have lived in the cavern comfortably.

One theory is that the present Indian tribe found in Arizona are descendants of the serfs or slaves of the people which inhabited the cave. Undoubtedly a good many thousands of years before the Christian era a people lived here which reached a high state of civilization. The chronology of human history is full of gaps. Prof. Jordan is much enthused over the discoveries and believes that the find will prove of incalculable value in archaeological work.

One thing I have spoken of may be of interest. There is one chamber the passageways to which is not ventilated and when we approach it a deadly, snaky smell struck us. Our lights would not penetrate the gloom and until stronger ones are available, we will not know what the chamber contains. Some say snakes, but others boo-hoo this idea and think that it may contain a deadly gas or chemicals used by the ancients. No sounds are heard, but it smells snaky just the same.

The whole underground institution gives one of shaky nerves the creeps. The gloom is like a weight on ones shoulders and our flashlights and candles only make the darkness blacker.

Imagination can revel in conjectures and ungodly day-dreams back through the ages that have elapsed till the mind reels dizzily in space".

An Indian Legend

In connection with this story, it is notable that among the Hopis the tradition is told that their ancestors once lived in an underworld in the Grand Canyon till dissension arose between the good and the bad, the people of one heart, the people of two hearts. (Manchoto) who was their chief, counselled them to leave the underworld, but there was no way out. The chief then caused a tree to grow up and pierce the roof of the underworld and then the people of one heart climbed out. They tarried by Palsiaval (Red River), which is the Colorado, and grew grain and corn. They sent out a message to the temple of the sun, asking the blessing of peace, good will and rain for the people of one heart. That messenger never returned but, today at the Hopi village, at sundown can be seen the old men of the tribe out on the housetops gazing towards the sun, looking for the messenger. When he returns, their land and ancient dwelling place will be restored to them.”



Exhibit H) Ferdinand Ossendowski (Beasts, Men and Gods ©1922)

“The blissful ‘Sakkia Mouni’ found on one mountain top tablets of stone carrying words which he only understood in his old age and afterwards PENETRATED INTO the kingdom of Agharti……. In cars strange and unknown to us they rush through the narrow cleavages inside our planet.” Page 218.

“More than sixty thousand years ago a Holyman [Giant?] disappeared with a whole tribe of people under the ground and never appeared again on the surface of the Earth….. No one knows where this place is. One says Afghanistan, others India….. The subterranean people have reached the highest knowledge. Now it is a large kingdom, millions of men with the King of the World as their ruler.

Prince Chultun Beyli added:

“This kingdom is Agharti. It extends throughout all the subterranean passages of the whole world. I heard a learned Lama of China relating to Bogdo Khan that all the subterranean caves of America are inhabited by the ancient people who have disappeared underground. [see Exhibit G: Arizona Gazette Newspaper article] Traces of them are still found on the surface of the land. These subterranean peoples and spaces are governed by rulers owing allegiance to the King of the World. In it there is not much of the wonderful. You know that in the two greatest oceans of the east and the west there were formally two continents. They disappeared under the water but their people went into the subterranean kingdom. In underground caves there exists a particular light [See Exhibit D John Uri Lloyd Etidorhpa ©1895] which affords growth to the grains and vegetables and long life without disease to the people.



There are many different people and many different tribes. An old Buddhist Brahman in Nepal was carrying out the will of the Gods in making a visit to the ancient kingdom of Jenghiz, -- Siam -- where he met a fisherman who ordered him to take a place in his boat and sail with him upon the sea. On the third day they reached an island [unknown island above the Arctic Circle. See Exhibit F. ‘The Smokey God’ ©1908] where he met a people having two tongues which could speak separately in different languages…. These people told him that they had come up out of the subterranean kingdom and described to him certain parts of the underground country.” Page 217.

http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/Lagoon/1345/Canyon.html

If you note the date, and read in the text that this is a follow-up article:
(my emphasis)
then you'll see that in all likelihood that this was an April Fools article.

I have several links (or used to have) concerning this article that explain exactly why it is completely and utterly untrue, not the least of which is the unfortunate, but undeniable, fact that this "Prof. S. A. Jordan' under whose "direction" the "the Smithsonian Institute (was) ...prosecuting the most thorough explorations" never actually existed.

Assuming, that is, that anyone here is interested in bursting this particularly silly balloon.

Harte

http://www.reptoids.com/Vault/gc_ArizonaGa...e5April1909.htm


http://www.puppstheories.com/coverup.htm

"Archaeological Coverups"
by David Hatcher Childress

To those who investigate allegations of

archaeological cover-ups, there are disturbing indications that the

most important archaeological institute in the United States, the

Smithsonian Institute, an independent federal agency, has been

actively suppressing some of the most interesting and important

archaeological discoveries made in the Americas.

The Vatican has been long accused of keeping artefacts and

ancient books in their vast cellars, without allowing the outside world

access to them. These secret treasures, often of a controversial

historical or religious nature, are allegedly suppressed by the

Catholic Church because they might damage the church's credibility,

or perhaps cast their official texts in doubt. Sadly, there is

overwhelming evidence that something very similar is happening with

the Smithsonian Institution. The cover-up and alleged suppression of archaeological evidence

began in late 1881 when John Wesley Powell, the geologist famous for

exploring the Grand Canyon, appointed Cyrus Thomas as the director

of the Eastern Mound Division of the Smithsonian Institution's

Bureau of Ethnology.

When Thomas came to the Bureau of Ethnology he was a

"pronounced believer in the existence of a race of Mound Builders,

distinct from the American Indians."

However, John Wesley Powell, the director of the Bureau of

Ethnology, a very sympathetic man toward the American Indians, had

lived with the peaceful Winnebago Indians of Wisconsin for many

years as a youth and felt that American Indians were unfairly

thought of as primitive and savage.

The Smithsonian began to promote the idea that Native Americans, at

that time being exterminated in the Indian Wars, were descended from advanced civilizations and were worthy of respect and protection.

They also began a program of suppressing any archaeological evidence

that lent credence to the school of thought known as Diffusionism, a

school which believes that throughout history there has been

widespread dispersion of culture and civilization via contact by

ship and major trade routes The Smithsonian opted for the opposite school, known as

Isolationism. Isolationism holds that most civilizations are

isolated from each other and that there has been very little contact

between them, especially those that are separated by bodies of

water. In this intellectual war that started in the 1880s, it was

held that even contact between the civilizations of the Ohio and

Mississippi Valleys were rare, and certainly these civilizations did

not have any contact with such advanced cultures as the Mayas,

Toltecs, or Aztecs in Mexico and Central America. By Old World

standards this is an extreme, and even ridiculous idea, considering

that the river system reached to the Gulf of Mexico and these civilizations were as close as the opposite shore of the gulf. It

was like saying that cultures in the Black Sea area could not have

had contact with the Mediterranean.

When the contents of many ancient mounds and pyramids of the Midwest

were examined, it was shown that the history of the Mississippi

River Valleys was that of an ancient and sophisticated culture that

had been in contact with Europe and other areas. Not only that, the

contents of many mounds revealed burials of huge men, sometimes

seven or eight feet tall, in full armour with swords and sometimes

huge treasures.
(Vangard note..>Eastern Indian texts say that at one time men lived

thousands of years and grew very tall in direct proportion to their

age, as does the Bible with the comment "and there were GIANTS in

the earth in those days...")

For instance, when Spiro Mound in Oklahoma was excavated in the

1930's, a tall man in full armour was discovered along with a pot of

thousands of pearls and other artefacts, the largest such treasure

so far documented. The whereabouts of the man in armour is unknown

and it is quite likely that it eventually was taken to the

Smithsonian Institution.

In a private conversation with a well-known historical researcher

(who shall remain nameless), I was told that a former employee of

the Smithsonian, who was dismissed for defending the view of

diffusionism in the Americas (i.e. the heresy that other ancient

civilizations may have visited the shores of North and South America

during the many millennia before Columbus), alleged that the

Smithsonian at one time had actually taken a barge full of unusual

artefacts out into the Atlantic and dumped them in the ocean.

Though the idea of the Smithsonian' covering up a valuable

archaeological find is difficult to accept for some, there is,

sadly, a great deal of evidence to suggest that the Smithsonian

Institution has knowingly covered up and 'lost' important

archaeological relics. The STONEWATCH NEWSLETTER

of the Gungywamp

Society in Connecticut, which researches megalithic sites in New

England, had a curious story in their Winter 1992 issue about stone

coffins discovered in 1892 in Alabama which were sent to the

Smithsonian Institution and then 'lost'. According to the

newsletter, researcher Frederick J. Pohl wrote an intriguing letter

in 1950 to the late Dr. T.C. Lethbridge, a British archaeologist.

The letter from Pohl stated, "A professor of geology sent me a reprint (of the) Smithsonian Institution, THE CRUMF BURIAL CAVE by

Frank Burns, US Geological Survey, from the report of the US

National Museum for 1892, pp 451-454, 1984. In the Crumf Cave,

southern branch of the Warrior River, in Murphy's Valley, Blount

County, Alabama, accessible from Mobile Bay by river, were coffins

of wood hollowed out by fire, aided by stone or copper chisels.

Either of these coffins were taken to the Smithsonian. They were

about 7.5 feet long, 14" to 18" wide, 6" to 7" deep. Lids open.

"I wrote recently to the Smithsonian, and received a reply March

11th from F.M. Setzler, Head Curator of Department of Anthropology

(He said) 'We have not been able to find the specimens in our

collections, though records show that they were received."

David Barron, President of the Gungywamp Society was eventually told

by the Smithsonian in 1992 that the coffins were actually wooden

troughs and that they could not be viewed anyway because they were

housed in an asbestos-contaminated warehouse. This warehouse was to

be closed for the next ten years and no one was allowed in except

the Smithsonian personnel!

Ivan T. Sanderson, a well-known zoologist and frequent guest on

Johnny Carson's TONIGHT SHOW in the 1960s (usually with an exotic

animal with a pangolin or a lemur), once related a curious story

about a letter he received regarding an engineer who was stationed

on the Aleutian island of Shemya during World War II. While

building an airstrip, his crew bulldozed a group of hills and

discovered under several sedimentary layers what appeared to be

human remains. The Alaskan mound was in fact a graveyard of

gigantic human remains, consisting of crania and long leg bones.

The crania measured from 22 to 24 inches from base to crown. Since

an adult skull normally measures about eight inches from back to

front, such a large crania would imply an immense size for a

normally proportioned human. Furthermore, every skull was said to

have been neatly trepanned (a process of cutting a hole in the upper

portion of the skull).
In fact, the habit of flattening the skull of an infant and forcing

it to grow in an elongated shape was a practice used by ancient

Peruvians, the Mayas, and the Flathead Indians of Montana. Sanderson

tried to gather further proof, eventually receiving a letter from

another member of the unit who confirmed the report. The letters

both indicated that the Smithsonian Institution had collected the

remains, yet nothing else was heard. Sanderson seemed convinced

that the Smithsonian Institution had received the bizarre relics,

but wondered why they would not release the data. He asks, "...is

it that these people cannot face rewriting all the textbooks?"

In 1944 an accidental discovery of an even more controversial nature

was made by Waldemar Julsrud at Acambaro, Mexico. Acambaro is in

the state of Guanajuato, 175 miles northwest of Mexico City. The

strange archaeological site there yielded over 33,500 objects of

ceramic;stone, including jade; and knives of obsidian (sharper than

steel and still used today in heart surgery). Jalsrud, a prominent

local German merchant, also found statues ranging from less than an

inch to six feet in length depicting great reptiles, some of them in

ACTIVE ASSOCIATION with humans - generally eating them, but in some

bizarre statuettes an erotic association was indicated. To

observers many of these creatures resembled dinosaurs.

Jalsrud crammed this collection into twelve rooms of his expanded

house. There startling representations of Negroes, Orientals, and

bearded Caucasians were included as were motifs of Egyptians,

Sumerian and other ancient non-hemispheric civilizations, as well as

portrayals of Bigfoot and aquatic monsterlike creatures, weird

human-animal mixtures, and a host of other inexplicable creations.

Teeth from an extinct Ice Age horse, the skeleton of a mammoth, and

a number of human skulls were found at the same site as the ceramic

artefacts.
Radio-carbon dating in the laboratories of the University of

Pennsylvania and additional tests using the thermoluminescence

method of dating pottery were performed to determine the age of the

objects. Results indicated the objects were made about 6,500 years

ago, around 4,500 BC. A team of experts at another university,

shown Jalrud's half-dozen samples but unaware of their origin, ruled

out the possibility that they could have been modern reproductions.

However, they fell silent when told of their controversial source.

In 1952, in an effort to debunk this weird collection which was

gaining a certain amount of fame, American archaeologist Charles C.

DiPeso claimed to have minutely examined the then 32,000 pieces

within not more than four hours spent at the home of Julsrud. In a

forthcoming book, long delayed by continuing developments in his

investigation, archaeological investigator John H. Tierney, who has

lectured on the case for decades, points out that to have done that
DiPeso would have had to have inspected 133 pieces per minute

steadily for four hours, whereas in actuality, it would have

required weeks merely to have separated the massive jumble of

exhibits and arranged them properly for a valid evaluation.

Tierney, who collaborated with the later Professor Hapgood, the late

William N. Russell, and others in the investigation, charges that

the Smithsonian Institution and other archaeological authorities

conducted a campaign of disinformation against the discoveries. The

Smithsonian had, early in the controversy, dismissed the entire

Acambaro collection as an elaborate hoax. Also, utilizing the

Freedom of Information Act, Tierney discovered that practically the

entirety of the Smithsonian's Julsrud case files are missing.

After two expeditions to the site in 1955 and 1968, Professor

Charles Hapgood, a professor of history and anthropology at the

University of New Hampshire, recorded the results of his 18-year

investigation of Acambaro in a privately printed book entitled

MYSTERY IN ACAMBARO. Hapgood was initially an open-minded skeptic

concerning the collection but became a believer after his first
visit in 1955, at which time he witnessed some of the figures being

excavated and even dictated to the diggers where he wanted them to

dig.

Adding to the mind-boggling aspects of this controversy is the fact

that the Instituto Nacional de Antropologia e Historia, through the

late Director of PreHispanic Monuments, Dr. Eduardo Noguera, (who,

as head of an official investigating team at the site, issued a

report which Tierney will be publishing), admitted "the apparent

scientific legality with which these objects were found." Despite

evidence of their own eyes, however, officials declared that because

of the objects 'fantastic' nature, they had to have been a hoax

played on Julsrud!
A disappointed but ever-hopeful Julsrud died. His house was sold

and the collection put in storage. The collection is not currently

open to the public.


..........cont......

sorry thought I'd post quite a bit of the article... I do believe that much evidence of the past has been covered up... Too much actually...that is why we know so little about the past ...and only have tales... recounted passed on memories to give clues as to what used to BE....