Just out of curiosity, where do you stand on child discipline? Do you smack your child? is it acceptible to use wooden spoons etc...
I must admit I do smack my child, either on the hand or on the bottom. I, myself was on the receiving end of dozens of smacks on the bum using a wooden spoon (had a few broken over my butt too)
I personally don't think that there is nothing wrong with a smack, but of course, there is a difference between a smack and a good hiding! My partner was only ever given the strap on one occasion, believe me he's a fast learner.

I was spanked quite a bit (my father seemed to hit for distance ) and honestly, I don't see anything wrong with it. It taught me who was in charge, in our family. I used to work in daycare centres and kindergartens, and it made me CRAZY how many 4-year-olds apparently ruled the roost, judging by the way they were allowed to speak to their parents. I was raised to respect my parents, never talk back, call other adults "Mr./Mrs.", and be respectful to adults and seniors. Sadly, that kind of respect seems to be going by the wayside these days.

That said, I would NEVER lay a hand on anyone else's child (I don't have any of my own, for precisely this reason) - it's their parents' problem. But I don't have a problem telling any child that "I don't like being spoken to in that manner", or something to that effect. Children NEED boundaries, and they need to understand that the adults are the ones in charge. This makes me sound a bit like a martinet, but I honestly believe that it's better for the children to know right and wrong, manners and whatnot, and sometimes I can come off as a bit harsh when discussing it (I'm a total softie, honest! ).

Of course, not every child needs spanking - it's obviously up to the parents to decide if a situation deserves a spanking or not, and many don't.

The more you beat'em the more you love'em.







Kidding! Though, spankings I don't consider too bad. I had spankings and I turned out just fine. I find it stupid that in today's society you're not allowed to spank your kids. It's a nice wake up call and a learning tool for them.

Yeah I totally agree with everything you just said liokee! I drives me mental when I see kids talking to adults in a disrepectful way, whether they be their parents or a store clerk.
But yeah I would never smack someone elses kid.

Well for me they were very effective. They were saved for those moments when I did something really really bad... so I'd always be wondering and anticipating if what I did was bad enough. Which really, would work well to keep me from getting into trouble.

I do, however, think that some people can't control tempers enough to do this in moderation. Some kids are so timid that it would be too much of a scare for them. So there are some situations where it should be avoided, but I wouldn't ever judge a parent over the issue and feel that's for them to decide.

Nothing wrong with spanking. Beat that ass!

Thank you, Black Dahlia 83. I don't know what the rules are where you are, but here in Canada, they passed legislation (for the children's safety), that teachers in daycares and kindergartens aren't allowed to TOUCH the children. Holding a hand if you go outside is okay, but I was actually disciplined for hugging a child who'd fallen down! And if the child is mouthy to a teacher, all you can do is tell them not to speak to you that way and hope they stop. You can't even get them to a "time out", if they don't want to go. I'm not advocating strong-arming children, but if they decide not to follow the rules (and there are 30 of them in a classroom, all screaming), then there's really nothing the poor teacher can do about it.

I was actually in a grocery store a couple of weeks ago, and there was a poor, frazzled-looking mom there with two kids - one was about four, the other was still in a carrier. The four-year-old was raising a fuss about something (he wanted candy from the check-out stand), and I heard the mom trying to tell him to settle down. Finally, she swatted him on the bum (just the once) and told him to smarten up. I was actually shocked when some people applauded! Shocked, but mildly impressed.

HAHA! Good story!

spanking is a very bad thing to do to a kid, it confuses the child and makes thems unsure if there parnets love them being 15 I have never been hit

I was spanked quite a bit when I was younger. I was even adopted into my family which would make people already assume I have issues. I seemed to turn out fine.

If monkeys give their young an occasional spanking, why shouldn't we?

All I have to say is I hate child abuse and there is a thin line between discipline and child abuse. But there is a line. I don't care for disrepectful kids either, but lets face it, they don't have a very good understanding of the world. That's what being a child is all about. I think that people should learn or take courses in how to discipline a child without resorting to striking the child. Raising a child is not easy, but I think that striking a child should be a last resort. I watched one show of Super Nanny, and was very impressed about how the boundries were set without resorting to violence. The mother and child initially were just shouting at each other and striking each other. Super Nanny told the parent that someone has to be the adult here and the child was reflecting back her mother's behavior.

What type of message are you sending a child when you first resort to violence to solve your issues? Is there any wonder that our society is filled with violence? Even the cartoons are violent.

Spanking is a good thing when not done in the heat of the moment. You see, language has to be learned before it can be understood, but reaction to pain is automatic, and avoiding pain is learned faster than language. You can spend hours and hours saying, "No, little Johnny, you mustn't do x, because you can hurt yourself." and get 0 results, or you can say, "No!" and spank a child's bottom a couple of times and very quickly the child will learn that if you say, "No!" they better not even do what they were about to do, because then they will feel pain. We haven't spanked either of our kids in more than 7 years, and they are both very respectful, very well-adjusted, healthy kids who know they are loved and who love us very much.

Where do I stand? About 2 feet behind, with feet shoulder width apart so I can get a good swing...

I dont have any kids of my own yet, but I was one once. I know how unruly kids can be. I wasnt stupid as a kid. I knew what my parents were saying to me. I understood the reasoning and logic they were trying to impress upon me when they asked me, then told me, then told me again not to do something. So it wasnt a suprise to me when I eventually got a smack or two on the booty. I understood reason, even though i didnt always listen to it. But I sure listened to a smack or two on the booty. Eventually, I learned "Hey, they always ask me not to do something before the spankings come... Maybe I can skip the spankings if I just complied earlier."

You shouldnt hit someone else's kids. But you should offer to hold them down while the parents do it.

I must say though in australia we don't have legislation as strict as that. There has been talk though that smacking your child should be considered child abuse. This is just ridiculous, anyone should be allowed to discipline their child as they see fit. Of course without physically abusing them, like people have said there is a fine line between abuse and discipline.
I never smack when I feel that I am not in control of my emotions, thats when you walk away and just mutter under your breath

Oh my god shadamaun, I swear I nearly fell off the chair laughing

right on... I don't beat my kids.. never have... but they've had their rear ends swatted more than a few times.. and I've been known to smack smart mouths too...

There's a thin line between discipline and abuse... and sometimes it seems that society has erased that line... the kids at school are taught to tell someone if they get hit by anyone, including their own parents...

My 15 year old threatened to call the police once when he got smacked for muttering, loud enough for me to hear, that I was an effing b*tch for grounding him... I told him I'd dial the phone...

edit: because it's too late for me to be spelling correctly...

Well I never smack my child. And I actually agree with it being child abuse. You see.. your not allowed to hit anyone else in society so why should that not include your own children. You are trying to teach your children the values to not hit people etc so why on earth would you think you should set that example by smacking them? It makes no sense to me at all and I am really very much against it. You should not need violence to discipline a child and its that simple imo. If you need to resort to violence then what message are you actually teaching you children in the end. I have never had to smack my child because he just understands what is right and what is wrong because I tell him and when he makes a mistake I forgive him and just try to teach him to not make it again. I dont reinforce that with a smack because its just not needed.

Basically I dont think its nice to bully your children with smacking or the theat of a smacking. I think if you have to do this then its YOU who have not done your parenting properly and so to take it out on the child is even more wrong. Nothing bugs me more than seeing some parent hanging over their child saying 'one more time and I'll smack you ' .. it makes me shudder to know so many children are being brought up like this hey.

Agree with those who say if you spank your child, never do it in anger/frustration etc and always give a stern explanation of what they did wrong and why it was wrong to reinforce the lesson (preferably before the spanking so you have time to calm down as you explain).

I must admit I don't think you should use an 'aid' in spanking (unless we're not talking about children ) as they are likely to cause a real injury - which isn't the lesson you want to teach.

Nice mature topic Black Dahlia 83.

I have two sons of my own(Joseph9+Stevie7)they love me beyond belief and me them.
They fight like two little wild savage animals at times mainly over toys and TV/DVD's, I'm a great believer in being very ''firm but fair'', that means it dosen't matter who or how the fight started, they both get smacked why, that way they keep each other in check next time they decide to rumble.
Dad was rough and heavy duty tough on me more than i care to remember, but as i got older and then had my own kids all that hardcore disipline that i coped early in my life payed off big time.
I also believe in being open and honest with your kids, keeping the relationship close but without smuthering them. I relise my sons are only young and have a while before they hit the ''terrible teens'', but get the little devils while they young i always say.
Never ever show signs of weakness after they cop their disipline even though you fell like sh** later, but dont show them or they've got you.

I hope this helps you out a little Black Dalia 83.

But what is actually more disrespectful. Your child talking rudely etc(learned from.. ) or you hitting them for it? And remember that one is suppose to be the adult. Like how can you be respecting your child by inflicking pain or the threat of pain while trying to teach them to be respectful to others?

I straight out look at it as like a standover technique which is designed to intimidate because you are using your bodies age and size to standover the other person with violence. And I dont see that as being respectful and I think its far worse than what most children do in 'deserve' of it.

It's just I only saw on the news last night that a young child died because the step father hit him for wetting the bed. I believe that if people really knew that it was not allowed to hit children at all, or anyone, it might help protect those that need it in that heat of the moment.

How can the child get confused.. it is easy, you misbehave you get a slap you behave and you don't get a slap..

I have never smacked my kids and never needed to, I do believe in smacking.. there are loads of kids in my village that deserve a good slap although syaing that so do their parents.

I truly believe a swat on the bottom or hand is not using 'standover tactics'. When I tell my child not to touch something and my child ignores me repeatedly, I think a smack reinforces the message I am trying to get across.
Like people have said earlier, there is a line between smacking and child abuse, obviously this step father has crossed it and of course you shouldn't smack (or in this case he obviously beat the child) a child for wetting the bed.
I am in no way condoning child abuse but for me I don't see how smacking (meaning not leaving a mark) can harm a child. I love my children, would never hurt them for the world, but if I am teaching them a lesson, what is wrong with that? I don't smack them for the slightest reason, only when I feel it is warranted. (and that ain't often)

lol That one caught me off guard, and I had a good laugh.


Yup, I whole-heartedly agree with you Kazahel. My take on the matter is that so many people/parents think that misbehaving is to do with a child's physical being, so what do they do? They attempt to physically discipline them. No. Physical means is what you do when your child is physically sick or ill, so the correct response is for them to see a doctor. When your child misbehaves, it's to do with a mental/learning aspect. The way I see it, is that physical discipline is like spanking your child's brain for deciding to misbehave. I think that parents should try other non-physical methods, just as effective, to demonstrate towards children that pain is not how intelligent humans learn.

As Black Dahlia's Mum, I have been the person to dish out some of the swats on her little bum. When children are very young it is hard to reason with them and use adult logic. They are after all children.
How do we all learn through life ? Experience, some negative and some positive. Hopefully our positive experiences make us better people. All 3 of my children are now grown up people and living their own lives.
I have never regretted any of the methods my husband and I used to get the message across that we would not accept unacceptable behaviour.
All my children are respectful, loving giving individuals and I do stress that we did use different methods on each child as they became old enough to reason with.
Denying of privelidges ie computer games, going to friends places worked wonders as they approached their teens.

Mind you, if not smacking works for you, more power to you. But, you should never feel guilty for dealing out the odd smack on the bum.

A child not being old enough to understand or comprehend the adult logic doesn't even begin to warrant a parent to carry out physical abuse upon them.. To even stoop as low as physical disciplining your child just says that you, as a parent aren't equipped with the verbal authority, or non-physical persuasive means to instruct or guide them.. A child is NOT a TV set, where, when the reception goes bad, you conveniently thump it so that the picture becomes clear again.

Exactly.

I believe very much in a society where people have a healthy respect for authority. In the case of children, authority comes in the form of adults...I feel that children should understand that they cannot run around doing and saying whatever they like to adults. And the fact is that most children simply will not respond to 'now now, don't do that...that's bad' tactics.

If a child is spanked for doing something, then they're going to be less inclined to do it again...if all they get is a lecture, then they're just getting the message that they can get away with it. It's the same thing you see with gang culture...youths running around doing whatever they please to public or private property, because they know the police can't legally do anything to them.

If the police had the right to knock the living crap out of them I bet they're change their minds. But anyway, I'm not proposing that parents 'knock the living crap' out of their children...but I feel a child needs to be aware of the consequences of their actions, and they're far more likely to understand a painful tooshie than a mere finger wagging.

A smack does not have to be abusive any more than a newspaper to the nose to startle and cause fear in your dog is abusive to teach it not to pee in the house.

There are real things that children need to fear and not learn by experience from playing in a road or playing with a heating appliance. Dead is dead and there are no second chances at teaching them to do better.

Equating all disicpline as abusive is a favorite excuse for wimpy or lazy parents to raise little foolish and disrespectful brats that often grow up to become total losers accademically, financially, and in their ability to have quality relationships with others. There are always a few exceptions to everything, but in general that is how they turn out.

Exactly...I feel that, if you're not disciplining your child, then you're the one who's not doing your job as a parent. Christ, you're certainly not doing anything to prepair them for later life. 'Now kids, if you screw up when you're an adult, don't worry...the worst that'll happen is you get a stern talking to.'

Just the other day in work, these two kids were running around like crazy. They were yelling, screaming, bumping into tables, chairs, staff and customers. They were knocking things over and making no attempt to clean them up, and the only thing the parents seemed interested in doing (on the few occassions I saw their mother anywhere near them...she spent most of her time standing by the front door talking to her friend) was 'settle down kids'.

Honestly, I was on the point of telling her that if she didn't put the brats over her knee, I was going to do it for her. Would they have been running around after that? I somehow doubt it.

I think that this is the confusing message. I felt really guilty about hitting my older children and yet now they are really incredibly well behaved. I am old fashioned and I get really really annoyed with children who can't even walk up the street without jumping all over the place.

I have a girlfriend that I will go out with and she doesn't hit her children. I have noticed several children like this in my friends. It bugs the crap out of me.

They can't walk straight up the road. They will jump all over the place and climb up on the brick in front of peoples houses, even climbing up on light poles. They are sarcastic to adults and are rude and have no manners whatsoever.

One example is the "elevator" my sons friends will push the button and stand right in front of the doors and try to go in before the people come out. These are 12 year old kids.

I think the key to keeping it seperate between violence and discipline is not to lose your cool.

I do admit that I abusively hit my older two children. Here's why. Instead of simply hitting them hard in a controlled manner, I tried not to hit them at all because I felt and was told by society that it was wrong. Ultimately I wound up losing my temper so that when I hit them I was hitting them out of anger.

With my youngest I didn't hit him very much at all. He was a wild child to some degree. When he was misbehaving in school the teacher sent home a behavior chart. I hit him 10 times with a belt on the butt (clothed) if he got in trouble.

I did this for three days. Then he said "If you don't hit me for two days I promise I will be good all the rest of the days" I agreed and he has been excellent since then.

I think the key to this is to hit them HARD and in a controlled manner, no emotion and not apologetic in it. Then they will remember it and you can remind them they will get a spanking when you go home if they don't listen. This is what has worked for me.

waits for the backlash!

Mine could march in line by the age of four so I do not know how it is with older children.
I would spy on mine and watch for them to do soemthing wrong, then leap out from around a door or from behind furniture and shout "Aha! I saw that!" They would freak out and start crying and I would stand with my arms crossed until they stopped and then talk to them and warn them that if I caught them again they would get a swat, and they usually never did it again. When I caught them doing anything leading to danger that they had been warned against, they got one stinging swat on the butt and a death lecture about how Mom cannot fix everything.

The ulitmate crime in my home that got a genuine spanking was a head blow or pointing a sharp object in a threatening manner. That got at least major four stingers along with the adults go to prison lecture.

I do not know if my child rearing style had any influence but both sons are in pre-law now in college.

I think one of the problems with raising kids today and why I use physical discipline is that it is very hard to overcome the influence of undisciplined children when your kids go to school.

I remember one time I was in a limo with another mother whose boys were jumping all over the inside of the car. I made my kids sit down and she got sort of annoyed with me because I was trying to make my kids listen. I wasn't trying to make her feel bad but I didn't allow my kids to act that way especially in a moving car.

I wound up having to spank my kids at home to remind them that if they didn't listen when we were out even if the other kids were being disobediant they would pay for it when we got home.

I don't know if I am making sense but because spanking or hitting a child in public is generally looked down upon it creates a tension that is hard to deal with.

I think that if I could just sternly spank my child once in public, that I wouldn't need the harsher punishment when I got home.

I don't know if this will help, but once when one of mine was older I held the Batcave hostage for a month in the top of my closet.
What if you picked out some hostages before going out in public and telling them you'll keep them for a month if they act out and they get them back when you get home otherwise?

Hmm that's a good idea! But then again will my kid grow up to think that taking hostages is a solution to their problems????

i'm 16 and i was brought up to respect my elders. If i stepped out of line i would get hit round the back of the legs. so far i've turned out just fine .

I have two children, one six(a girl, soon to be seven) and one 23 months(a boy, soon to be two). I've been lucky enough to be able to count the number of times that I have had to "tap or spank" my daughter for indiscretions that "a good stern logicial talking to" diddn't resolve on one hand, but when I did have to resort to the physical punishment, I made sure that I at least TRIED to explain to her what I was doing, and most importantly, WHY. My Father tried to do the same to us...not strike us in anger, and always explain what behavior prompted the discipline we were receiving....that way if it happened again, there would be no mistakes in understanding and realization.

My soon to be two-year-old tornado of a son dosen't get spanked, he gets a "tap" and a stern "no" to reinforce the tap so he knows what he got the tap for....children need to know that some modes and methods of behavior are unacceptable and understanding that fact is paramount in a society such as ours......sometimes words are just not enough.....but physical discipline without understanding what prompts such a reaction is just as bad as taxation without representation, children must understand(when they are old enough to do so) that such a reaction is EARNED on their part.

I haven't had to physically discipline my daughter in some time....she understands.....and the boy will to when the time is right.

Anyway I find that if your kids know that you mean business and that if you give direction on how they are expected to act beforehand that you can avoid most spankings. Mine are older now but I only had to spank a few times when they were little.

I'm all for anything that keeps kids from being smart alecs and disrespectful to elders. I see it way too often. Oh and drugs are not the answer all the time. That's used far too often as an excuse for bad behavior and neglectful parenting.

I've seen way too many parents who just ignore their kids. When I lived in England I ran the community center and I saw parents with their kids daily and I saw the kids at their best and at their worst. Also I had to hand out the discipline myself because people tend to use centers as baby sitters. Anyway I get so annoyed when I see a kid acting out and the parent just has absolutely NO CLUE as to what to do. They are just clueless. I think that's a lot of the problem.

I don't have kids so I can only think back to my own childhood, we were smacked when warnings were ignored. I agree with what ethyl says about direction. A child doesn't come pre programmed that is the parents job to show and prepare a child for everyday situations in everyday life.

You know, I don't really have a problem with slapping a hand of smacking a butt here and there, but one thing that seems to be missing from this conversations is positive reinforcement.

I find that if I catch my kids being good and praise them, and allow their bad actions to carry normal consequences, the ratio of good to bad behavior goes way up. If they leave their toys on the floor, they get held hostage, like someone said. If they fight with eachother, they must play in different rooms all day long. If they say something nasty to me, I explain that what they say made me feel bad and I don't want to play with them anymore. And I don't.

Of course my kids aren't perfect, but they are well mannered and know how to sit still, walk down the street, respect other people's things and houses, and feelings...

I still remember when my 5 year old son turned around in the restaurant (where he was sitting nicely on the booth bench) and said to the girl behind him (who was climbing all over, standing up on the seat, and staring over at our table), "Please can you turn around and stop jumping. We are trying to eat." When the Mom just gave me a nasty look and let the girl jump around more, my son turned to me and said. "I guess she doesn't know about being considerate."

Afterward, an older gentleman at the next table came up to us and shook my son's hand and said he was a fine boy and would grow up to be a great man someday.

What is that noise? Oh yes... tooting my own horn.

lol, good for him...

One of my mother's favourite stories is of when she and I were in a toy shop many moons ago (I have no memory at all of any of this, so I must have been really, really young), and seeing some kid about our age pocketing something. My mother told one of the shop assistants, but they didn't seem to really care.

As we were leaving the shop, we stopped at the crossing outside and the theif and her mother were beside us, and I whispered "Look mummy, it's the bad girl!"

I think knowing the difference between right and wrong has very little to do with age...it's about being taught the difference as early as possible. Disiplining a child (whether by smacking them or not) for poor behaviour is an important part of that...making them understand that certain behaviour isn't acceptable, and will have unenjoyable consequences.

A friend of mine who is a chaplain in the U.S. Army teaches a class on child rearing. He tells this story every time:

One day walking out of church, he and his wife were busy making sure they had the diaper bag, bottles, etc. and fell a bit behind their kids (they had 5 boys, and at this time the youngest was not quite 2 years old). He looked up to see where the rest of the boys were and he saw the second youngest, who was 3, had gotten away from his older brothers and had stepped off the curb into the street between two parked cars and was about to walk out right in front of a fast moving car. There was no way he could reach his son in time to stop him! So, using his DAD VOICE (you know the one), he barked out the boy's name. All of his kids knew that when Dad used that tone, they were expected to immediately stop what they were doing and give him their full attention or they would get spanked immediately, not after two or three warnings, but immediately. The boy turned to face his dad, and not only avoided getting run over, but he never even saw how close he came to being hit. His point: Teaching your kids discipline is not for your benefit, it's for theirs.

Sometimes it happens that the parent dosn't know the full story (as in who really did the wrong thing) and will physically punish their child when the child is actuallyinnocent. I know, because i've was punish at times when what happened wasn't my fault and i've seen it happen to other kids too. The parent doesn't take the time to learn the full details, and instead resorts to physical punishment.

A lot of physical punishment doesn't really injure the child, but it does injure the child emotionally. I stopped my mother from slapping me when I was a teenager by slapping her back. The reason why i did it was because it looked like she enjoyed it, and i was tired of being picked on. She cried, not from the physical pain, but the emotional pain. It was the last time she ever slapped me.

This is quite interesting that I find this topic right at a moment where the subject is floating around my head these days.
You see, I have tried the 'keeping the favorite toys hostage', tried taking away TV, videogames, computer time.
I have tried explaining until I am blue in the face.

My son is 9, only child. He lies, mainly about homework, he says he doesnt have any, when he does. He lies about eating his lunch, when he doesn't. He lies about certain things that happen, so he won't get yelled at, and he doesn't listen. I have to repeat things over and over.

He is a slob with his schoolwork, I've scolded him many times about that, made him erase and start over, and over and over. That hasn't helped.

He is showing an aggressive behavior toward other kids on the playground, his teacher seems to think that is the influence of who my son hangs around with, we just got a paper that next time he gets in a fight, it's a meeting with the principal and parents.

My husband (my son's step-dad) has only recently started to intervene with discipline, he is harsher than I am. He hasn't spanked or anything, although he would like to and he approves that spanking is the way to go. Whereas me, I've never been of that thinking pattern. Never ever spanked as a kid, I guess I was a good one .

I fear the trauma of spankings, I don't want my son to get this emotional pain and think that we don't love him. I don't want him remembering us as the mean parents, and I don't want to harm his self-esteem.

I'm really out of ideas on how to handle this...........short of seeing a councellor.

My husband saw this thread as I was reading it and was grinning, more people for than against.

I know if I spanked I would feel so guilty, maybe I'm a wuss, I don't let my son get away with much, yes, sometimes you have to pick your battles, but I'm very strict with politeness and respect, and the lying just makes me very mad. So I preach, which hasn't worked either.

So that is my story and my dilemma, don't get me wrong, my son is a sweetheart and he is loving and wonderful. Its just a phase I guess, that I have to nip in the bud.

I welcome any suggestions from parents.
Thanks

A few years ago, my boys were fighting and bickering over who knows what, and it came to blows between them... after repeated warnings to stop, cease and desist...they had but one option... I made them sit together on the couch for an hour holding hands... they still have fights and now that they're older, the holding hands threat doesn't carry the dread it did then, but at the time, it worked like a charm.

ShadowDancer, first I'll tell you that I don't have kids so take what I say with a grain of salt. I have nieces and nephews and have always helped out with them and watched others kids, but that's the extent of my knowledge...

With that said, here is what I'd ask myself in your situation. Why do you hesitate? Is it so YOUR feelings aren't hurt, or his? What would be worse: Your child growing up being undisciplined and bullying other children, or you feeling a little guilty for swatting your child a couple times to show him you mean business?

Does your child's school have counselers? Maybe you can discuss your difficulties with them and they may have some good alternatives. Maybe there's a completely different issue going on, ADD, learning disorder, etc. If you have the cash there are always child psychologists or psychiatrists.

Growing up, I can remember exactly 3 instances when I was spanked. I can tell you each and every time I deserved it - completely! I turned out pretty darn good, if I do say so myself. I was well socialized in school, I got good grades, participated in school activities, and went to college. Spock would be shocked but I don't wake up crying at night about being abused or have any crazy underlying issues and I've never even visited a psychiatrist! Never once did it scar me emotionally, it only prevented me from doing the nasty things that were so tempting...

ShadowDancer I think you probably won't have success with spanking at this age.

I have similar problems with one of my sons and he is one that I beat the crap out of when I was precisely in your position. It didn't work.

I realized that my older child I had to spank at a young age and I have realized that if you don't put the fear of God so to speak, into them at a young age then its too late.

The schoolwork I would put into perspective this way. What did you get in school in 4th or 5th grade? Today schools make it seem as though the kids won't make it through life if they can't make it through 5th grade.

I would suggest if you do spank him that you do it in a very controlled fashion. You tell him that he's getting a certain number of spanks if he doesn't listen. And use a belt. On the butt, Pants up.

Mistakes that would cause a trauma to me would be, hitting him with his pants down. Hitting him enraged or angry. Hitting him in a "beating" style, IOW just randomly hitting him.

But I'll give you a glimmer of hope. For some reason when both my boys turned 10 they stopped being so difficult to deal with. Its like they "got it"

I am a big believer in spanking but only from a young age like 5 onward and it should stop when they are about 11 or 12 in my opinion.

Hope this helps and keep your chin up. Also do you allow him to play with guns? Toy guns or video games with guns? Because I have never allowed my three kids to play with toy guns. I rarely allow them to play with even water guns. You might consider what he is getting exposed to.

And one last thing which will probably get me clobbered but if you are working and he is in afterschool you might find that what he needs is to be held by you.

As an afterschool teacher I am floored that parents leave their kids in school for such long hours. I feel so badly for these kids because I get the sense that they are not held that much at home because there is so much to do and not enough time.

What has also worked is lying in bed and simply cuddling with my boys. Singing songs, reading books, telling jokes. Its amazing how soothing a boy with loving affection cuddled in bed will calm them down.

ShadowDancer, I don't have any children, and I'm sure that this is going to sound a lot like Episteme's post, but I just figured I'd throw in my two cents. Your son sounds a lot like me when I was little - I was a complete hellion. In fact, I'm kind of surprised that my family still talks to me, when I remember what I was like. I can tell you that I was spanked soundly every time I did something bad - and even during the spankings, I knew they were deserved.

Children test their parents, it's just the way it is. They test by being difficult, by disobeying and sometimes lying. It's up to the parent to show the child that this is unacceptable behaviour and there will be consequences. The problem is to make the punishment fit the crime. I think the punishment that _Nyx_ posted about was wonderful! Obviously, not in all circumstances is spanking the answer. When I lied about homework, my parents would punish me by making me spend all evening in the dining room. With nothing else to do, my homework inevitably got done. These 'lesser' punishments only worked though, because I knew that if I disobeyed one too many times, it would be a spanking.

I've spoken to my mom about her spanking me, and she's told me that she felt guilty after every time (she also was never spanked as a child, though her siblings were. She learned from their examples, I guess). I understand that this is quite common; but she said that sometimes, it was the ONLY way I would obey her, and I remember that this is true.

Another thing mentioned earlier in the thread was the need for positive reinforcement. Children are selfish about mommy & daddy's attention, and will sometimes seek negative attention. Yes, even spanking can be a reward sometimes - it got you to notice them, didn't it? Positive reinforcement can go FAR, trust me. Some of the best positive reinforcement I've ever received was overhearing the good things that my parents have said about me to others.

Shadow, I'm going to offer an alt view lol might not be popular but like I said I don't have any kids either

I vaugely remember covering a child psych develop theory a couple of years ago that included lieing.

It was presented as a healthy phase or stage that all children go through. It marks a significant moment in development when a child comes to realise that what they think, feel and precieve is infact completely private and unique to them only and I suppose freedom of thought. However when children start lieing it can go overboard and naturally they will learn that they can't get away with huge fabrications. That there will be a price to pay.

It views lieing or the realisation that one can lie as an important social skill. That's not to say that lieing should be ignored, but it may well be part of a phase.

My former husband, and I got to the point where we didn't know what to do either. He was raised by a Marine-angry father, and a shaming, guilt-causing mother. I was, as some of you know, physically, and abused in every way you can think of, by my stepfather's group of friends, until I was in my early twenties. So, we knew we didn't want to be like our parents, and have all of the major baggage we have left over, still. We took the offered Parenting classes at the kid's elementary school. The classes were called "Love and Logic", and there are books, too. It worked wonderfully. It concentrates on positive reinforcement, like someone else posted, and logical consequences. It takes parents being willing to put the effort in, and not just solve the problem in anger. We are divorced, but not because of the kids or our parenting, but for the past 8 years that we have been, we still communicated about our kids, and used the Love and Logic. We were still friends and a parenting team. That is a major part: showing the kids you are a united front, and learning for their good. The kids are 19 and 23, and can be crappy sometimes, but so can we all. Overall, they are awesome, talented, confident individuals, and I cherish them. Hopefully, you can find these classes or books in a hurry! They worked!

a simple slap on the butt ever so often is okay, but anything more could get very bad very quick, if you knew what happened to one of my friends you would understand what i am talking about