why should one beleive in a commanding diety, why follow this diety??Addressing some reasons beleivers have put forth ..
such as God is good you know 'perfect' but only if you forget about the millions killed in his name at his command..some may just think this is downright evil and heinous.....

then there is god allows evil to show his goodness....hmmm


Or God's purposes are not known to us and 'the faved 'god is 'god he can do what ever he wants for whatever reasons and does......If I was a guessing person i 'd say this has a power trip vibe to it " shrugs'

even if one boldly takes this on faith,


How does one decide if this dietys commands are for the greater good or not...

Since you talked about how millions were killing in his name, the reason people had religious wars was because of the way society interpreted their written holy books. It's all based on how people make things out to be, i believe everyone worships the same God, but I feel its an ego thing where people think their god is better, resulting in wars.

But God still allowed killing in a false representation of him then, did he not?

That's unethical.

As a reply to Sheri, I totally agree, God is unethical. The Christian way is to justify God's actions with terms like "God is all knowing who are we to question what he does", "The Bible says that God is just and righteous", "Human's are naturally evil and God punishes them accordingly"...

But at the end of the day, the personality of God fits with someone like Hitler. Rule with an iron fist (The wrath of God, "LORD", killing off cities or even the whole world), kill all who have different opinions than you (The rapture), test your followers' devotion to you (Job, false prophets), and reward them if they show complete devotion to you and nobody else (heaven).

kabee how about the 'perfect ' part and god is god he can do anything he wants can you shed some clarity on that??/

That comes from the inability to put liability on God that all Christians have. They refuse to question his motives because if they did, they would no longer be Christian (that was the case with me at least). I remember it well, imagining God as not being perfect is like imagining the sun not rising - you're just stuck in the ideology. Then once they believe that he is perfect and flawless, they will explain it as best as they can, and will say "only God knows" if something doesn't make sense or sound right.

Wow, so as a Christian, you never questioned God? Why not? I do all the time. It's part of the benefit of having a personal relationship with Him. You get to let Him know how you're really feeling (which, since He is omniscient, He already knows), and you get to let Him know when you're not happy about what He's doing and question Him. And because it is a personal relationship, He answers and sometimes even let's you know what's coming next or at least why it's happening. I'm sorry you never felt the freedom to question Him

I did question him, but you prove in your post the kind of questioning it really is. Its not a true, "I'm going to look at the evidence to form a concrete opinion of the plausibility of God" type of questioning, it's just a; "I'm struggling with my faith, let me ask God for help and ask him if he's really there, only to reassure myself by associating some random thing I hear to my prayers so I can continue to worship God."

You're not so much questioning if he's really there and listening to you, as reassuring yourself that he is.

For instance.

On saturday I was out at Ruby Teusday's for my birthday. The waiter was joking around and said "Do you want coffee flavored coffee?" Couple hours later, I'm watching SNL and a skit says, "What happened to coffee flavored coffee?" Now this is a coincidence. But if I were still Christian, I would've said.. "God's trying to say something to me!" or consider it an answer to a prayer.

Since I would be SO SURE that God is there, I would even associate small coincidences with him. But the truth is that coincidences happen to everyone, whether they're trying to talk to God or not.

Kba i'd call that creatiing your own reality, as you grow in awareness you see tha t the inner world is the outer world , all the same thing, not inferring I'm so ahead or anything... .

son i as a master of my life would know that what was showing up was as i intended whether i remember i created it or not, i would see mysself as cause and effect...I'd be clear that I was questioning myself..In case you were interested in other POv's.....

kba what is so amazing about you is your honesty and candor and regardless whether one agrees with you or not their is a candor from you of one who truly wanted to find the diety of relgion. and had the courage to tell himself the truth, i have a great respect for you( as I' have been there too) as many of us on here , i only see you helping others..funny in the state i live in there are therapists now who help people transition out of the religous state of denial and help people adjsut to life with out dogmas... you remind me of this group, many have a hard time letting go of the dogma how will they go on, but they do and far wiser fro it as you are...i read you are very young yet you speak with a wisdom that is one of many years...

Yes, it can be very hard sometimes to shake the grips of religion. For a long time with me I was in a period where I knew God didn't exist but I still in the back of my mind took a little offense to a Jesus joke and found myself arguing in my mind over a topic that came up, etc. It's disturbing because it shows how controlling a religion can be in one's life. On the topic of how I carry myself, I guess it's just that how my childhood has played out caused me to grow up fast, although it's both a good and bad thing, because of it I'm extremely introverted and I don't adapt well with people around my age. I generally end up pretending to be entertained or interested when I'm with friends, and I am extremely self-motivated.. I simply hate being given orders. I think I will become a much happier person once I am able to live by my own rules.

(This is what draws me to things such as the unkown, I find myself constantly wondering what is out there above earth, There are things that our laws have no reach or effect on, this earth has many wonderful things on it but I am sure that what we have seen here are nothing compared to things that exist elsewhere.)

I am not clear what your purpose was in this thread Sympa, so if i don't answer "on Track"my apologies.

Ethics are created by humans, based on a human belief system, for the purpose of guiding less educated or self aware humans in "right practice."

Some would argue that this is exactly the same definition as that of god. If so it is merely a clash of different belief systems and "ethics." Take your pick.

Others would argue that the spiritual principles and beliefs are laid down by god (in whatever religious framework, christian, buddhist, mithraic or whatever) If you believe in god, whatever you perceive "him" to be, then those principles come from something greater, and with more authority than a human construction.
If you don't believe that anything exists outside of our human /physical world, then conditionally accept human ethics. If you do believe there is a greater, wiser, presence, then conditionally accept the principles it lays down. However, in both cases, examine the results of the ethical belief system, understand how and why it was created, and accept that your personal belief system may sometimes be at odds with it.

Are ethics created by humans? In the bible it tells humans how to act, which is the supposed word of God. This is the suggested ethical behavior of the bible and of God. Ethical is a word, humans created the word but did not create the ideal. Consciousness comes with ethics, they decide many of our actions. God is subject to ethics because our opinions of God are all we have of him.

An ideal God for a religion is one that can not be questioned, is all knowing, and uses different logic than us. Basically, it is a blank check for whatever argument presents itself. If we find God to be unethical, God is above ethics. If we find God illogical, we are only using human logic that can not test God. But the Judeo-Christian God says that we are made in his image, therefore he is subject to our logic until he himself is willing to prove otherwise. It's easy to pretend to speak for God, it is hard to prove you are doing so. A good liar can convince many people of anything, if he chooses his words carefully, just as a good illusionist can make people swear he is a demon, the people that fail to see the machinery hidden up his sleeve.

Mr.walker i had no intent thanks for posting all POV are welcome..and shed lights of many shades on this , i am on a quest to understand and grow in compassion, it all helps....

Its wonderful to have a expert of the christian relgion on here IMO,( KBA) I am gaining alot of understanding reading your posts , i actually was torn agonizing as to why ne would choose to worship this sort of diety, thanks to you i see many just dont' know,,...It gives new meaning to "FAther forgive them for they do not know what they do"...i can understand such compassion.....i guess that comes form understnading....i really enjoy your posts KBA so keep posting...

It's very true that many Christians just never think of truly testing their faith. They are drawn in not only by the scare tactics of the evangelists on TV, but by the "we're the good guy" image that is sprinkled onto Christianity. By the time they're really into the religion, it has been hardwired into their head that the Bible is true and great, and they have come to the point where even the most disgusting verse in their own Bible will not cause them to call it quits. Many use Christianity to fill a void they have in themselves. They want to find their bridge over troubled waters and eventually end up telling themselves that it's just what they've found. Many people simply need to ask themselves "What deficiency am I filling with my religion?"

I hear many times about people who say that they were into drugs, they cheated on their spouse, they were an alchoholic, and then God lifted them into religion. This is what people want it to be. Many simply need an extra push to change themselves. They could have done it on their own, but they didn't realize it because someone told them God would do it, and they believed it. This became their motivation to fix their own problems, but they never realize it.

"Ethical is a word, humans created the word but did not create the ideal."
I am not clear what you are saying here KBA. My point was that either humans created ethics or a divine being did. You say that humans created the word but not the ideal. If they did not create the ideal what did? Ethics are either a total human construct and must be seen as such, or may be inspired by the divine and treated in a different way. From your posts you seem to be suggesting that we create our gods in our own image, but this does not explain where you think our ethical systems come from if we do not create them, as in your mind there would be no "real/tangible" god to hand them down. I know there is a real and tangible god, therefore the issue of creating an ideal god does not come up. God is as "he" is, and also as we find him.

As I said, ethics are a product of consciousness. Every action has a reaction, we decide based on our desired reactions what our actions will be. Ethics is choice and consequence. If we hurt someone it is unethical, because the consequence is if anything our own guilt. Everyone defines their ethics. While society can agree on a general ethical standard, what is ethical and what is not varies for everybody. This is why we have murderers, etc. Ethics is only the creation of humans in a sense that it is a word which explains a thought process. Basically, we choose our actions based on the predicted outcome. This is ethics, and this comes bundled with consciousness. Anything that is able to predict the outcome of its actions also decides for itself what is and is not ethical.

Even animals have ethics. They think that if they eat another animal, they will have been fed. So to them it is ethical to eat another animal. But trained animals learn ethics imposed on them by humans, I.E. at first they will do something because it is ethical to them. Then a human will over time teach them that it is not ethical, and they will not do it anymore, because they know their actions would produce a negative result.

It might interest you to realise that I am one of these people who were into drugs. But God did not lift me into religion (well, not into organized religion). God simply showed me that no matter how bad things got, he'd be there for me. And even if I stuffed up and reverted to my old ways, then he'd be there for me.

For the record, no one told me I needed God to get me out of my problem. Many of the people I knew weren't even aware I had a problem at all. But I was a selfish, self-destructive idiot. About a year ago now, I was searching through my old emails found an email that I'd started to compose in my first year of uni (1999) but never got around to sending. In one sentence I probably used four or five swear words, and in another place I described my perfect evening - "to dance and dance all night so that by the end the only thing keeping me standing was the copious amounts of drugs coursing through my veins".

I don't deny that perhaps I could have got out of this rutt on my own. I do not deny that others have gotten out of similar rutts on their own, or indeed used other gods. But in that space, in that time, I came to the God of the Bible.

And as one who has been through this, I can say for 100% and complete certainty that your statement: "They could have done it on their own, but they didn't realize it because someone told them God would do it, and they believed it" is completely and totally wrong. No one told me God would do it. I dedicated my life to God, and everything else fell into place on its own.

Though I'm interested to know how you can be so knowledgeable as to make the categorical statement that anyone who gets out of messy situations using a god or gods didn't realise they could do it themselves, because people were telling them they needed God.

Anywho, to answer the question on ethics - I guess it depends on how one looks at ethics. Ethics in the modern world are no where near the same as ethics even 15 years ago. Go back a further 15 years, or 150 years or 1500 years and a different moralistic/ethical system governs people's thoughts. So by what measure do we grade a god who has been around since the beginning of time? Or in a similar vein, is our society ethical? How will society's hundreds of years later view our society?

By what measure are we to decide if God is "ethical"?

Regards, PA

Yes, and the training for domesticated and undomesticated animals done so that they can interact with us and share our habitat is distinctly different.

Wild animals such as tigers and bears must respect and fear the trainer first and foremost.
All long term handlers state this. Affection can mix in but that fear and respect must be maintained or the animals will turn on and attack other species int he habitat.

Domesticated animals are trained with love an gentle discipline like a young child. They are communicated with in one or two hundred vocabulary words and live within our humanly created enviroments. At this point almost all of them would perish without our continual contact and care. They are no longer part of the wild yet cannot function as independent units in our crafted soceity.

This is pretty much the story of the bible and the story of the human race with us as the animals except for one quite noticable exception. We did not go through the luxery and the curse of becoming dependent and helpless in the soceity of a more advanced species.


We went through the "Fear the Lord" stage up through the "No more will I call you Slave, I will call you Friend" stage. We began with saying Master and went to saying Father.

There are people who proudly state that they never needed a father or a mother, that they have done just fine on their own but that statement is an impossiblity. We are all the products fo our fathers and our mothers across the planet, we all have those things they built and created for us, mostly out of love.

People can choose to curse their ancestors and the gifts given to them by them, but as often happens, a parent's wisdom is never fully appreciated until the child themself becomes a parent and they TURN BACK to those older and more experienced than themselves for help and advice.

I expect it will be the same for the human race as they begin to raise up other species into higher levels of sentience and civilization and things that once made no sense at all to them finally begin to make perfect sense at last, whether they believe in a god or not.

PA, what I was trying to say is that they DID do it themselves, but still gave God credit. Changes like these can only happen inside someone; everyone can tell you that you need change, you yourself can know that you need change, but until you make the decision for yourself that "Yes I have a problem, and it's going to be fixed", you will never get rid of your negative personality. I think it's wonderful to hear you became a better person, but you see to me, there is no God, and it can only be done on your own. Even when I was a Christian, I didn't say I had a personal relationship with God. You just can't have a personal relationship with something that doesn't exist alongside you. You'd be grapsing at straws for a simple response, which you would have to interpret when you think it came. The Bible does not even say that God will respond if you talk to him, and he does not. What I was getting at is that people find the motivation they needed in the idea of God, whether he exists or not. I think that people can find that very same motivation in themselves if they try. While I've never struggled with addiction, I've had my problems.. my mom's severe depression, borderline disorder, and bipolar disorder made me very angry when I was younger. I took that anger out by being an arrogant jerk to most people I would meet. I got suspended from school 2 times, and was constantly considered the "troublemaker". But then I realized that I didn't need to be that way, I wasn't gaining anything from it, and I changed it. Everyone has the capacity to change themselves, many just never realize it because they want someone to help them into change.



I do agree with you in a sense, that a lot of humans are "domesticated to faith". If you simply erased every item on this earth that had to do with religion, you would cause mass panic and rioting. If you ask me, modern religion comes down to the fact that many people just do not like the idea that anything could happen after they die, and feel they have to explain it to themselves.

I don't know who are true ancestors are, and I don't think any of us will know in our lifetimes. I have proved to myself that a "one-true-God" type of being does not exist beyond reasonable doubt. If one does, I do not expect them to be angry. I don't believe that any God so evil could somehow end up with complete control of reality. That kind of power only can come with matching wisdom, and the wise do not require punishment for actions they do not care about.

Pa, many have created themselves anew, many have done it and knew it was themselves doing it.....it seems you needed a structured way, a step by step plan to get you to the next point, but I agree with kBA it was you and its your accomplishment, Pa i often reevalutae myself and decide i want to work on being more compassionate or understading or generous , its the human condition to want to be better, IMO we have to use grat care in the systems and dogmas that guide us, to know when it is time to let go.. so they don't keep us dependent and needy and disempowered...

Bella, interesting point on the wild animals,( after all its man that has called things wild and he should know this better than anyone he is seeing himself) has it occured to you that man is projecting his fear onto the animal, that its man who thinks the animal must fear him...Hyper has carcals and in many discussions fear wasn't the predominate feature..man in his ignorance knows very little and thinks he knows it all that in is the problem,s......As we evolve humaity is gonna find out that he actually knew very little and what he did know harmed a whole lot of life unnessecarily......the first step to enlighenment is aknowleding that we don't know and the more you grow in awareness the more you will see you don't know....

I believe God is as ethical as you want God to be. Your own ethics define your God's.

i like that leo very well said

KBA,

The other thing about change is that (most) people fear it. Even if you know what you are doing is bad, you still fear to change.

Sheri,

Having thought about this with relation to the original question. To be an ethical God would God need to have no fear of change? Would God happily change if that was required to make his creation 'happy'?

You can only measure happiness by comparing it to the amount of sadness. If there was no sadness then everyone wouldn't be happy they would just be regular or normal. You can be 100% happy but that's because you have to compare your current happiness with your past sadness or to another persons sadness.

Happiness wouldn't exist without sadness, it needs something to compare to. The same goes for good and evil...there wouldn't be good if there wasn't evil. There can't be a positive without the negative.

And of course theres everything inbetween.

True, but if there was no sadness there would be no...well, sadness.

Then there wouldn't be any happiness either.

that is an excellent point Leo....Life is change its not will it change but how will it change another awareness on the path of enlightenment.....God and man percieved through religion as seperate and intersetingly it is man who has placed conditions on god , so the question is can man love god without conditons, except god without condition, it appears he cannot..man has made up his god with conditions can man allow gpd to grow?? Again it appears that he cannot....note man can't even allow for god to be loving or kind.....( vengeful, wrathful demanding detached) ..interesting twist Leo... man has far to grow .......

yet they are really the same thing just varying degrees.....we have decided we need nothing to compare it to itself maybe to understand the material.......

Thanks KBA. i can at least understand where you are coming from and appreciate your viewpoint now. i have to disagree with you about animals and ethics. Animals are completely driven by evolutionary processes/the way they were created; to act as they do.they dont have the self awareness/consciousness tomake decisions based on ethics. They are driven by fear, hunger, the alpha male, or their perceived pecking order in a pack etc. They certainly dont think "If I act this way the consequences will be.....and one of those decisions/consequences is more moral/ethical than another" You can see vestiges (and some times more than vestiges) of this type of animal behaviour in humans, eg the fight or fight reflex, but we are able to superimpose conscious and rationally determined decisions, which may be be based on ethical beliefs if we choose them to be.

If animals are unable to predict the otucome of their actions, then they must also be impossible to train. Humans are just animals but much smarter. Animals do have the absence of guilt and conscience IMO, except maybe some of the smarter ones such as apes. But again, "ethics" only describes what a conscious being will and will not justify doing.

I'm not sure you actually made this point. That seems to be a conclusion without supporting arguments.

What evidence do you have that any animal feels guilt?

It seems impossible to me to be able to judge God as ethical or not, until we decide whos ethics we judge him by. As ethics differ with each person/organisation/country then God will be ethical to some and not to others.

Also, do we judge God by his actions or merely actions carried out in his name? It would hardly be fair for example, to blame the crusades on God, as they were merely someones interpretation of what God wanted them to do, (as with any religious war), but then if we choose to judge God on his actions, how do we decide what God has actually done himself? Is that not open to equally as much interpretation as the ethics themselves?

The question in essence has no right or wrong answer, each persons interpretation of the answer could be whittled down to either a yes or a no eventually, but will be based upon each individual belief system.

Barman, i would agree ones understanding of self/diety would contribute in large part ones awareness on gOds ethical standing......
one that sees himself as seperate and less than diety will have a differnt understanding than from one that sees himself as one with all of life/gOd I beleive the latter would not need limits where as the other would be lost without the limits...one creates a dependency, one creates an interdependency ..In the arena of experience this would affect the game....

Very well said Barman, Allow me to pour you this one.

But doesn't God act and speak in human emotions as described in the Bible? There are very many scriptures in the Bible that explain God as loving, forgiving, angry, etc. If he is acting in a human manner and shares human emotions (and tells humans what is moral and what is not) then is it not fair to judge him based on human ethics?

In the Koran, Allah acts in human ways also, so is he not subjected to human ethics?

It works like this with every religion as far as I know, God acts in human ways, so in my opinion he is subject to human ethics.

No, it's not. God, obviously, expresses emotions that humans can understand, but being God, the Creator of the Universe it would be simplistic to believe that He is simply a more powerful human. God is a being whose fullness we will never understand. Would it be fair for your drawings to judge you simply because you drew them with faces that reflect the emotions you feel?

I know it would be simplistic, but what does the Bible give us otherwise? He ACTS like a more powerful human in the Bible, therefore I would judge him based on that. In fact he acts like a more powerful version of Hitler in the Bible. All those who don't support him recieve his wrath and death. He rewards only those close to him, and will not tolerate anything he doesn't approve. He rules with an iron fist and is not quick to forgive. He tests his followers' faith constantly. He is unfair and unjust. He is VERY human as described in the Bible.

The whole "We can't understand God except when he puts words into a scripture" crap is simply a hook of religion. It makes it so you have less to question of your God, the more details you give of a lie, the easier it is to disprove.

I'm sorry, KBA, and I'm not trying to flame or anything, I'm really not, but I have to ask: Have you ever actually read the Bible?

I'm not sure I understand your point, you seem to be implying that I would not judge God by human ethics, that's not what I was saying at all.

My point was that "ethics", whatever they may be to each of us, change depending on what we beleive is right or wrong, therefore the answer to the question "Is God ethical?" will change for each person depending on the criteria they choose.

Of course I've read it. I've easily read over 3/4ths of it. The only difference is I interpret it with reality included.

If you want me to give you scriptures of how God rules like Hitler, I will.
(I should also mention that Hitler himself was a Christian, as were the KKK, the CSA (KKK-like organization), the Westboro Baptist Church (holds up signs like God hates fags at soldiers' funerals), etc).

"Who says I am not under the special protection of God?"
Adolf Hitler

I find it hard to believe you have read the same bible as me K.B.A, because the picture i get of the biblical god, both old and new testament, is that of an entity driven by love. You can sometimes see his responses driven by utter frustration at the activities of those he created. The frustration could not exist without the love. You don't get frustrated about people you don't care about. The same people he provided with rules, for both achieving eternal life, and later for a safe and happy existence on earth after eden, use the free will he also granted them to continually choose pain, suffering and death. It is these same followers, numbering among them the people and groups you mention, who corrupt god's word and attempt to use it to justify the racism and genocide which exists within their human hearts. THIS IS NOT A FAILING IN GOD, OR IN HIS WORD. It is just another HUMAN failing. God gave us the ability to make wise, just, and compassionate choices, but WE must make those choices.

Sorry, grasshopper, if I got a little carried away there.

Mr Walker and IamsSon,

You both have taken from your reading of the bible and your belief in your religion the impression of a loving, merciful God. Do you not think that this is in part because you have chosen those parts of the bible where God has displayed those traits as the basis for your belief?

The other people KBA mentioned have simply chosen other parts of the bible, the Godly aspects of retribution, racial superiority etc as the basis for their belief. This doesn't make their belief wrong, taking these concepts from the bible is as valid as taking the concepts you have chosen.

You have all chosen the ethics you wish to see from your God.

But the Bible has to be read as a whole. So one must take the good with the bad ethics.

God makes us answer for our sins...maybe one day we will make him answer for his.

Leonardo , up to a point I can see what you are saying, and certainly i probably cannot convince anyone else that my interpretation is right. People do read and interpret the bible through their own hearts and minds. I could argue that my personal relationship with god leads me to my viewpoint. Perhaps more convincing is studying and reading the bible for over 30 years with many different "sects", faiths and individuals; and the knowledge that my own awareness of biblical truths is still ongoing and developing.
However, if you take religion/belief out of the equation and read it like a novel or a text book; deconstructing it and critiquing it, logically and rationally, you get what I feel is the most accurate interpretation of its message. (I am also a high school English and History teacher with 3 years of university politics/geography and children's literature.) All of these influence the knowledge base of; language and societies as well as story telling and writing styles, that have helped bring me to my present belief. One area of expertise i do not have is in ancient languages, although i try to soak up what i can. My point was that when you look at the totality of the bible, and its message, you see a loving, merciful, but just, deity. "His" values are today often seen as "old fashioned" and yet in many respects they kept societysafe for centuries.(Try imagining a society in which no regard was given to the 10 commandments and you might get a picture of what I mean) Certainly modern society and law has made some successful refinements but it has also destroyed much of the basic fabric of our society.
I had a conversation with my wife this morning, and a simple example came up, which is often talked about, and is quite contentious..The bible says that the practice of homosexuality is wrong . It uses quite clear and explicit language to say so. Yet the bible also tells us that it is not our place to judge, or to take action on, that knowledge. Only god, who fully understands the totality of each individual, can do this. We are instructed to love and treat all, as brothers. The bible also makes clear that a homosexual person can enter heaven as easily as anyone else, and in just the same way. Thus, if we hate, or act against, a person because of their sexuality, not only is this acting on our human prejudices, it is in direct contravention of god's instructions to us. The same principle applies to racism, prejudice against women, and all the other human failings. I happen to feel that a homosexual lifestyle is neither a natural nor a "healthy" lifestyle. Because of my study of the bible I will not transfer that belief to feelings or actions against a PERSON any more than i would transfer my belief against abortion to any person who had one.
Thus I cannot accept that all interpretations of the bible are equally valid, and i come back to that underlying biblical precept to "know them by their fruits" (and no, the unfortunate connotation/ connection with my earlier example did not occur until i had drafted this)
In other words the bible is meant to be a force for good. People who use it to rationalise evil or harmful acts have falsely interpreted it.

I really can't add much to what Mr, Walker has said in his response, except to say that I completely agree with what he wrote.

You are still taking from it the parts which you wish to see. What do you have to say about God telling the people to stone and kill rebellious children or homesexual men? What's your input on God killing off the whole earth in the flood? Where was God's love and forgiveness as he destroyed sodom and gomorrah? His fairness as he dictated utterly sexist laws to Moses? How about God waiting 4,000 years to forgive humanity for Eve taking a bite out of an apple? What is just about God allowing the devil to kill all of Job's relatives and destroy all his posessions as a test of faith? Was God just to kill the firstborn in Egypt, even though some of them were likely still babies and innocent? Was it fair of him to give Samson the power and allow him to kill 1000's of innocent men? Where will God's kindness and mercy be as 2/3ds of the world cries out in torment as he bombards them with boulders, burns them with the sun, and creates giant boils on their skin?

The Bible paints a pretty bleak outlook on life if you ask me. I'm glad I'm not a Christian.

Admittedly i was looking at the bible in its entirety/as a whole, but even the examples you give are by no means as clear cut as they seem.The difference in perspective does come from acceptance of god as creator and law giver who therefore has 'rights" over us. If you dont believe this then first you won't accept any other point of view, and also it should not be worth your while arguing about it. However, even as one who accepts god's dominion over us, I can see that at first glance you seem to have a point. However, when you look at /read each of the cases carefully and see the whole story, god is not as evil as you paint him. I have discussed the examples of job and sodom and gommorah in other posts in detail. The law given to moses successfully regulated a society and also included food, dietary, rights to protect women and inheritance, that were far in advance of other cultures. These laws were not meant to last forever and are clearly different in the bible to the laws which jesus stated he had come to justify not to do away with(my words) Thus for example, while keeping the sabbath was a jewish law, jesus lived by it and made it clear this was also one of god's laws for all people. T
The sin in eden was disobeying god. The punishment for this was the loss of immortal life. When jesus restored this, he did it for all people, past, present and future. Therefore it did not matter how long god waited. He restored eternal life for all who chose it. God's covenant, and first concern in Egypt, was to protect the israelites. He gave pharoah fair warning of what would happen(as you will find biblically he almost always does) I rather like the idea of a god who sticks by his word in order to fulfil his vows to you. But yes, the consequences were hard ,as they often are in life ,especially outside our modern civilizations. God will probably weep if he is forced to destroy two thirds of humanity, but this always reminds me of people who whine about speeding fines. The laws are there for a purpose. If people obeyed them there would be no fines/punishments. In both case the people make choices to do wrong and then complain it is not fair. Maybe not, but it is just. Th bible is supposed to be, and is for me, the ultimate book of hope. It shows a god who keeps his promises and has promised me eternal life. It also shows me how to live a good life. While I respect your views I must chose to strongly disagree with them.

I'm not going to bother replying to your points, because the bible advocates killing in the name of God, it's simple and clear.

But the Bible is only a book of hope for those who will devote themselves to it. For anyone else it's "You are evil and you deserve the wrath of God". What ever happened to God allowing a neutral stance.

There is no neutral stance, KBA. There really never is. The Bible is obviously not a book of hope for those who reject it's message, after all, it clearly states the fates of both those who follow God's teachings presented in the Bible and of those who reject those teachings.

I have to agree with Mr Walker's analogy about speeding tickets, and think it is a very good, valid example. Earlier this year I was stopped at what was most obviously a speed trap, and at first I was outraged, but, then I realized I would not have been stopped if I hadn't been going above the speed limit, something I chose to do, so I deserved the ticket.

But in that case, the punishment fits the crime.

In the Bible's case, it basically says being a human being is the crime. That's rediculous, that's like telling your child that if he uses the restroom you will take away his allowance. You can't justly punish something that's involuntary.

And I wonder, why when I try to use analogies to show how God is just like a human, all of a sudden we can't judge God, but when you guys use human analogies to say why God is being fair, all of the sudden God acting like a human doesn't mean anything.

A fair God would allow a netural stance. Imagine if George Bush went around the country shooting people who didn't support him, would that be fair and/or just? That's what the Christian God does, he forces people to like him or be punished. That's not loving at all.

Besides, if God can't even prove that he exists, why should I believe that he really cares whether I like him or not?

Why would a fair God allow a neutral stance KBA?