Parallels between Jesus and
Horus, an Egyptian God


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Quotations:
"The Christian myths were first related of Horus or Osiris, who was the embodiment of divine goodness, wisdom, truth and purity...This was the greatest hero that ever lived in the mind of man -- not in the flesh -- the only hero to whom the miracles were natural because he was not human." 1
"...I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me." Hosea 13:4, King James Version. This passage may have an additional and completely different meaning from that usually assigned.



Background:
About Yeshua of Nazareth: He is commonly referred to as Jesus Christ, although Joshua would be a more accurate translation of his first name. "Christ" is not his last name; it is simply the Greek word for "Messiah," or "anointed one." Theologians have discovered about 50 gospels which were widely used by Jewish, Pauline and Gnostic groups within the early Christian movement. Only four of these were chosen by the surviving group, Pauline Christianity, and were included in the Bible. Those four Gospels describe Jesus as a Jew who was born to a virgin in Palestine circa 4 to 7 BCE. He is portrayed as a rabbi, teacher, healer, exorcist, magician, prophet, and religious leader who had a one year (according to Mark, Matthew and Luke) or a three year (according to John) ministry in Palestine, starting when he was about 30 years old. Most Christians believe that he was executed by the Roman occupying army, visited the underworld, was resurrected, spent 40 days with his disciples, and then ascended to heaven. Most Christian denominations view Jesus as God, and as the Son of God, the second person in the Trinity.|

Conservative Christians view the Gospels as being inerrant whose authors were inspired by God. The Gospels and other passages in the Bible are mostly interpreted literally. Muslims revere Jesus as a great prophet -- next only to Muhammad in importance. They regard the assertion that Jesus is God to be blasphemy.

About Horus: Various ancient Egyptian statues and writings tell of Horus, (pronounced "hohr'-uhs;"
a.k.a. Harseisis, Heru-sa-Aset (Horus, son of Isis), Heru-ur (Horus the elder), Hr, and Hrw), a creator sky God. He was worshipped thousands of years before the first century CE -- the time when Jesus was ministering in Palestine. 2 Horus was often represented as a stylized eye symbol, symbolizing the eye of a falcon. He was also presented "in the shape of a sparrow hawk or as a man [or lion] with a hawk's head." 3 He is often shown as an infant cradled by his mother Isis. He was considered to be the son of two major Egyptian deities: the God Osirus and and the Goddess Isis. In adulthood, he avenged his father's murder, and became recognized as the God of civil order and justice. Each of the Egyptian pharaohs were believed to be the living embodiment -- an incarnation -- of Horus. 4



Isis with Horus 5 Horus 5

"A list of the names of all the gods of Egypt would fill pages. But all these gods were only forms, attributes or phases of Ra, the solar god, who himself was the supreme symbol or metaphor for God....Horus, the son of Osirus and Isis, is himself an aspect of Ra." 6



Life events shared by Horus and Jesus
Stories from the life of Horus had been circulating for centuries before Jesus birth (circa 4 to 7 BCE). If any copying occurred by the writers of the Egyptian or Christian religions, it was the followers of Jesus who incorporated into his biography the myths and legends of Horus, not vice-versa.

Author and theologian Tom Harpur studied the works of three authors who have written about ancient Egyptian religion: Godfrey Higgins (1771-1834), Gerald Massey (1828-1907) and Alvin Boyd Kuhn (1880-1963). Harpur incorporated some of their findings into his book "Pagan Christ." He argued that all of the essential ideas of both Judaism and Christianity came primarily from Egyptian religion. "[Author Gerald] Massey discovered nearly two hundred instances of immediate correspondence between the mythical Egyptian material and the allegedly historical Christian writings about Jesus. Horus indeed was the archetypal Pagan Christ." 7

This essay continues below.






Comparison of some life events of Horus and Jesus:
Event Horus Yeshua of Nazareth, a.k.a. Jesus
Conception: By a virgin. By a virgin. 8
Father: Only begotten son of the God Osiris. Only begotten son of Yehovah (in the form of the Holy Spirit).
Mother: Meri. 9 Miriam (a.k.a. Mary).
Foster father: Seb, (Jo-Seph). 9 Joseph.
Foster father's ancestry: Of royal descent. Of royal descent.
Birth location: In a cave. In a cave or stable.
Annunciation: By an angel to Isis, his mother. By an angel to Miriam, his mother. 8
Birth heralded by: The star Sirius, the morning star. An unidentified "star in the East."
Birth date: Ancient Egyptians paraded a manger and child representing Horus through the streets at the time of the winter solstice (typically DEC-21). Celebrated on DEC-25. The date was chosen to occur on the same date as the birth of Mithra, Dionysus and the Sol Invictus (unconquerable Sun), etc.
Birth announcement: By angels. By angels. 8
Birth witnesses: Shepherds. Shepherds. 8
Later witnesses to birth: Three solar deities. Three wise men. 8
Death threat during infancy: Herut tried to have Horus murdered. Herod tried to have Jesus murdered.
Handling the threat: The God That tells Horus' mother "Come, thou goddess Isis, hide thyself with thy child." An angel tells Jesus' father to: "Arise and take the young child and his mother and flee into Egypt."
Rite of passage ritual: Horus came of age with a special ritual, when his eye was restored. Taken by parents to the temple for what is today called a bar mitzvah ritual.
Age at the ritual: 12 12
Break in life history: No data between ages of 12 & 30. No data between ages of 12 & 30.
Baptism location: In the river Eridanus. In the river Jordan.
Age at baptism: 30. 30.
Baptized by: Anup the Baptiser. John the Baptist.
Subsequent fate of the baptiser: Beheaded. Beheaded.
Temptation: Taken from the desert of Amenta up a high mountain by his arch-rival Sut. Sut (a.k.a. Set) was a precursor for the Hebrew Satan. Taken from the desert in Palestine up a high mountain by his arch-rival Satan.
Result of temptation: Horus resists temptation. Jesus resists temptation.
Close followers: Twelve disciples. Twelve disciples.
Activities: Walked on water, cast out demons, healed the sick, restored sight to the blind. He "stilled the sea by his power." Walked on water, cast out demons, healed the sick, restored sight to the blind. He ordered the sea with a "Peace, be still" command.
Raising of the dead: Horus raised Osirus, his dead father, from the grave. 10 Jesus raised Lazarus from the grave.
Location where the resurrection miracle occurred: Anu, an Egyptian city where the rites of the death, burial and resurrection of Horus were enacted annually. 10 Hebrews added their prefix for house ('beth") to "Anu" to produce "Beth-Anu" or the "House of Anu." Since "u" and "y" were interchangeable in antiquity, "Bethanu" became "Bethany," the location mentioned in John 11.
Origin of Lazarus' name in the Gospel of John: Asar was an alternative name for Osirus, Horus' father, who Horus raised from the dead. He was referred to as "the Asar," as a sign of respect. Translated into Hebrew, this is "El-Asar." The Romans added the prefix "us" to indicate a male name, producing "Elasarus." Over time, the "E" was dropped and "s" became "z," producing "Lazarus." 10
Transfigured: On a mountain. On a high mountain.
Key address(es): Sermon on the Mount. Sermon on the Mount; Sermon on the Plain.
Method of death By crucifixion. By crucifixion.
Accompanied by: Two thieves. Two thieves.
Burial In a tomb. In a tomb.
Fate after death: Descended into Hell; resurrected after three days. Descended into Hell; resurrected after about 30 to 38 hours (Friday PM to presumably some time in Sunday AM) covering parts of three days.
Resurrection announced by: Women. Women.
Future: Reign for 1,000 years in the Millennium. Reign for 1,000 years in the Millennium.



Comparison of some characteristics of Horus and Jesus:
Characteristics Horus Yeshua of Nazareth, a.k.a. Jesus
Nature" Regarded as a mythical character. Regarded as a 1st century CE human man-god.
Main role: Savior of humanity. Savior of humanity.
Status: God-man. God-man.
Common portrayal: Virgin Isis holding the infant Horus. Virgin Mary holding the infant Jesus.
Title: KRST, the anointed one. Christ, the anointed one.
Other names: The good shepherd, the lamb of God, the bread of life, the son of man, the Word, the fisher, the winnower. The good shepherd, the lamb of God, the bread of life, the son of man, the Word, the fisher, the winnower.
Zodiac sign: Associated with Pisces, the fish. Associated with Pisces, the fish.
Main symbols: Fish, beetle, the vine, shepherd's crook. Fish, beetle, the vine, the shepherd's crook.



Comparison of some teachings of Horus and Jesus:
Characteristics Horus Yeshua of Nazareth, a.k.a. Jesus
Criteria for salvation at the place of judgment: "I have given bread to the hungry man and water to the thirsty man and clothing to the naked person and a boat to the shipwrecked mariner." 11 "For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me..." Matthew 25:35-36 (KJV).
"I am" statements "I am Horus in glory...I am the Lord of Light...I am the victorious one...I am the heir of endless time...I, even I, am he that knoweth the paths of heaven." 12
"I am Horus, the Prince of Eternity."
"I am Horus who stepeth onward through eternity...Eternity and everlastingness is my name."
"I am the possessor of bread in Anu. I have bread in heaven with Ra."


"I am the light of the world....I am the way, the truth and the life."
"Before Abraham was, I am"
"Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, and today and forever."
"I am the living bread that came down from heaven."

(From the Gospel of John)




Reactions of Egyptologists:
Ward Gasque, a volunteer book reviewer for Amazon.com surveyed twenty contemporary Egyptologists. He asked them about the origins of Jesus' name, the relationship between Horus and Jesus, whether both experienced a virgin birth, and whether the Egyptian religion considered Hourus to be an incarnation of God.

Ten responded, They agreed:

Jesus' name is a Greek form of a very common Semitic name Jeshu'a, which is normally translated into English as Joshua.
There is no evidence that Horus was born of a virgin, that he had twelve disciples, or that he was considered incarnation of God. 2

This part gets me, and there are an amazing amount of parallels there. However, I've read that Isis was impregnated by the angel Amnael from Venus and created Horus as a Nephilim. The book of Jmmanuel though also says Mary was impregnated by Gabriel. Who knows.

The Christian/Jewish archangels also have a lot of parallels with Eqyptian gods.

That's true but the reason behind that is that they were taught their religion and other things by the fallen angel Watchers themselves.

I've heard the term, "The Watchers" before. Could you elaborate on that a little?

An order of angels sent to Earth by God to teach humanity civillization and such. When they came here (200 of them) they lusted after human women and married them teaching them the secrets of Heaven (astrology, astromony, magic, black magic, incantations, recreational drugs, medicines, alcohol, eyeliner/rouge/eyeshadow, etc) and created Nephilim which ended in God sending the flood of Noah's time to wipe out these half angelic creatures destroring the Earth. The one who recorded all this - Enoch - was Noah's great grandfather and was apparently known as Thoth the scribe to the Egyptians.

Before I begin, I would ask that you provide a source for this information, thanks.

That aside, one thing you notice about history is that things seem to repeat themselves. If you generalize enough, you're guaranteed to find similarities. People have have compiled similarities between Osiris/Horus, Mithra, Krsna, as well as parallel's to Zoroastrianism and many other faiths/beliefs (these are just off the top of my head).

I'm thinking if you look at two historical accounts of wars, or two accounts of different rebellions, or hell, let's say two historical accounts of presidential elections, you'll find similarites between the accounts, because by nature they are similar events.

Now, fast forward 2000 years, and some people might proclaim that certain events never took place and in fact/possibility they are copies of each other.

It's just the way of history. Seriously, look at some of the "similarities" in the list. Both found by women (50/50 decision there, though perhaps you could say 33/33/33 if there were men and women together), after death, both buried in a tomb (wow, surprise), both baptised in a river (funny on that, where else would one be baptised - I hear the sand dunes are pretty hot that time of year?)

THere's even some out and out misunderstandings of scripture: Later witnesses to birth: Three solar deities. Three wise men. It's obvious the person compiling this list hasn't even closely read the Bible (if at all), else they would have realised that there is in fact no indication in the Bible of how many wise men were there. It's only popularly assumed that there are three wise men because the people brought three gifts. Seriously, the compiler has only limited knowledge of what the Bible actually says (and that's not the only place, just the most obvious).

Regards, PA

It is not about what is written in the Bible since statements in the Bible are based on someones thoughts, myths, legends, stories that a person or more of them remember or recal.

It is about, as you said PA, the popular believe.

Althoug someone who believes in God, and I should not question Him, I do have my concerns regarding our monoteistic religions ( judaism, christianity and islam).

The Popular believe in the times of old Egypt was the believe in Horus as the son of God.
The Popular believe in the times of old Romans was the believe in Mythra as the son of God.
The popular believe in christianism is that Jesus was the son of God.

There is to much to compare, to much coinsidance and to few historical facts for all of the above.

The Simmilarities can not be dissmissed one like it or not.

I forgott Hare ( Horus ? ) Krishna ( Christna ? ).

You mean what the text actually says is irrelevant? Glad to hear that. Maybe for you, it is. But the text is not irrelevant, no matter how you wish it were otherwise. And when the text was written (which is what we are talking about, after all - the text, not the interpretations/opinions thereof), there are not three wise men mentioned in the biblical text. A compiler of history should use historical text, not popular opinion, on which to base their claims. It's popular opinion that Santa Claus as he is known today was an invention of the Coca-cola company (contrary to what history actually shows). If I were to write that and claim popular opinion is what counts and what history actually says is meaningless, I'd be laughed out of town.

No, you missunderstood me, or I did not express myself in the right way.
What is written in the bible is very much relavant - for Christians ( and Jews and Moslems ).

But, this is the only "historical evidence" of Jesus that we have.

What I wanted to say is that none of it what is in the Bible is written as things were happening but long after that.
Who is to say that many myths of Horus, Mythra are not used as guidelines for that?

Popular beliefe today, with strong evidence, is the theory of evolution and it is happening as we speak and it is written down as it is happening.

In the context of the history of cosmologies , starting with ancient Sumer, to the Mesopotamians, Egyptians, Greeks, etc... they are all older than that of what can be construed as a youngster, in the faith of the christians. The history of which began by interjecting itself into the pagan communities that revered a pantheon and held to pantheistic relativism in their goddesses and gods. In other words their deities spirits were invested in all things created, including themselves. So it's no wonder, as there is no evidence of an actual Yeshua as related in the bible, that he appears as if he's possessed of so many traits of the old gods. What better way to insinuate a new faith into a pagan ideology than by relating the new god in a way the people can accept. Especially since they were polytheistic already. Thereby making this new jesus, like unto Attis, Osiris, the ancient Greeks god Pan that was the god of Shepard's and flocks, etc... The similarity to all gods the world over, as the new faith sought to overcome the old, made for an affinity for the new jesus, so that he and his clergy would actually survive their campaigns to overcome the old ways with the new.

It's no surprise really, if one knows ancient religious histories and isn't blinded by the faith they cleave to today imagining , falsely, that jesus was unique. The evidence of religous cultures the world over proves that.

Copy and paste from religioustolerence.com

it would certainly help if Horus died in any other manner than the archetypal sun god "die at night, reborn in the morning." No tomb. He also was not baptized.

Ironically, Tom Harpur, who wrote the book that list is based on, was professor of New Testament at the University of Toronto.

^Hmm, maybe I should become a university professor then. Write my own book

Thanks for the source, btw For anyone interested, here's a linky type thingy to that article

I think its common knowledge that Christianity was the new religion created to appeal to future would-be pagan converts, so the question everyone especially Christians should ask themselves is, how much was editted, changed, added to the original story to make it appealling to these future converts? And are they comfortable following a religion that was made in this way? If so and you know it is like every other mythology out there, whether Greek, Egyptian, whatever, than good on ya! But to say that sure it was made to appeal to pagans but it still really happened just as the book says, well thats crazy talk lol.

Sometimes I think the Abrahamic God was initially based on the Egyptian Set, god of storms, the desert and foreign lands. Later this intial foundation was added to and thats what Judaism became. You know like some follow Satan because they dont like Christianity so they adopt the enemy/bad guy of that religion, so maybe the early hebrew adopted Set because they didnt like the Egyptians, and took off into the desert in search of the promised land/foreign lands. Maybe, maybe not, I dont really care.

In regards to Jesus I honestly believe that he never existed, he was created by the Gnostics as their version of a savior man-god, being heavily influenced by Greek and Egyptian belief. Perhaps this popular up and coming religion became a threat and their story was taken, editted and re-released as a fancy two-disc digitally remastered box set with an alternate ending lol, just destroy every other copy of the story and those who maintain the original belief and in a few hundred years it would appear that there never was a single disc copy with the original "ending". Meh whatever.

There are paralells,
They were all the same thing, just different guises and circumstances. All written history is suspect, and just because it is written, does'nt mean it happened. The effect from it though, has changed humanity to the worst it's ever been, all aspects of it.

Just because horus and the rest were aliens, does'nt mean humans had to worship them. Those who do, are the one's who have destroyed humanity. Giving up themselves to slavery to the aliens, and subjecting the rest of us to their wars and systems of goverment to finish destroying the rest of free humanity, which does not exist, however large your cage and your perceptions of it.

The world history of religious symbols and icons can be traced back hundreds of thousands of years. Sympathetic relativism, is what I call it. That deep sense of self feeling connected and beholding to all that exists, so as to survive and flourish as the ancient peoples witnessed the cycles outside themselves unfold.
With all the ancient references to seasons and harvests and corresponding god's and goddesses. The jesus of old , the sun of man, as some pagans call it, is yet another telling of the winters solstice, ostara, and the harvest. The birth, life and death of the sun. It's been told for centuries in different guises, because people have evolved from a sentient bond to the natures to that of transcendent ideology. As though the powers of all creation are some how in need of being revered and re-cognized by us. Through our rituals and rites.

I think the conflict arises on the subject of origins, when people imagine that there can be only one "right and true" source to our being here. As if there is only one myth that get's it right or knows the truth. A spiritual absolute, as it were. Which goes to show how naive that process is, I think. In imagining the human ego can declare an absolute knowledge and exclusive iconography to substantiate the first or true faith, of consciousness.

Besides all that I thought this thread was for people that did not believe in jesus. Not for those that would like to prove those that do not believe are wrong or have take things out of context when they ponder the question or origins of the spirit of that which some know today as jesus.

I don't believe in it, i was talking about the effects of believing such a thing.
Your own view on the supposition of ancient beliefs, and what formed them, is your own.

I stand on what i said about worshiping anything, let alone aliens of imagination, or what people percieve to believe is part of their reality. The history of horus is well known, however filtered through the age's.

And this speculation about anything being right or true, is what the individual percieve's themselves. And takeing things out of context is your own squirm, not mine.

I'd say it is you that would rise to squirm level, given my observation was expressed as a generality.

If you actually read all that I said you might notice you and I are not in conflict.

I must confess i was wondering about who you were addressing, if was a generality, then i still have no reason to squirm.

And yes, we are not at conflict.

Church architecture was borrowed from pagans. Festivals such as Christmas and Easter were stolen from pagans. Sunday worship (as opposed to Saturday) was also taken from them. Christian artwork has its roots in pagan culture. Probably a few other sundry details I've missed also.

The life of Jesus, in my most honest and biased opinion, was not stolen from other cultures. There are parallel's between the life of Jesus and the life of other religious deities/saviours, but not in any way copies.

The parallel of Horus and Osirus is a valid one, however, as I am anti trinitarian in every fragment of the word. This is moot in regards to Jesus. This mother-son worship is just another perversion of the gospel and is not supported scripturally at all. Jesus was here and you could read the works of the historian Josephus to account for that outside of the bible. His role was not invented to copy pagan theology. His role was Messianic and there remains prophecy yet to be fullfilled.

Wouldn't it be ironic if we found out that all the religious deities where actually all the same?

During the appocalypse God comes down and says: "I am God!...and Zeus...and Ra...what other names do you call me again?"

They are, the same source i mean.

But of course! But shhhh! Fundamentalists could be reading.

It would be amusing if we get to God and this god-figure basically tells us that he doesn't care how we act. We could have lived the worst lives imaginable and at the end of the day clapped us on the back and said "heh, wasn't life fun".

Ya know, I guess it's just me after all, but I get the feeling that if a God does exist, then it would stands to reason that it would care about how its creation acts, and not hold a "who cares" mentality.

~ PA

If a god did exist it would know how it's creation were to act because it made them to be what they are in all things. Going by what we're led to believe "god" is, of course. And as one might surmise a god would be invested in caring how it's creation acts, how about it's creation caring how it acts, back!? All those mysteries, wills, etc... that are attributed to god. All those blights and sorrows suffered by it's creation , as a result of it's will manifest in the human domain. Before god judges people, perhaps it should be ready for people to judge it.

I dont think the creator of the Universe would care if we worked on Sundays lol, nor ate pig, drank alcohol or ran around naked all day, these things are human social/cultural concerns. Perhaps the creator of the Universe wouldnt appreciate his creation killing/destroying his other creations but one look at the animal kingdom and we soon realize life feeds on life, feeds on life, feeds on life, feeds on.... this is necessary. Any Tool fans out there LOL!?! The universe is hostile, So impossible, Devour to survive, So it is, so it's always been...

Excellent point Eleleth. To expand on that point, I'd think if we were suppose to wonder what god thinks, we'd wonder how it would feel about holy war. The history of the crusades, the various inquisitions, the dark ages of history wherein the church and political powers were one and the same and they all said god was an asshole! That wanted to take lives because they didn't comply to the specific ordination of the church people trusted to be the emissary of it's word. All the while popes, clerics, nuns, kings, were the epitome of the hell bound. Exercising their power prerogative while being deviants in their own right.

I wonder if there were a god how it would feel about suicide bombers today? Psychotics that proclaim a zeal for pro-life, while putting living abortion providers in a cross hair and squeezing the trigger. Or laying explosives in clinics to murder people indiscriminately, because they're murdering parasites in the womb. It's gods will, they say. Right before "BOOM!" makes them god in their own way. Changing the world forever, in those that survive the dead and recall for the rest of their lives how so and so was taken from them because some psycho for christ felt inspired.

How would god react to the racism, sexism, class-ism, homophobia that belief in it manifests in the mind of the faithful and upon the public that attitude seeks to victimize accordingly?!

Instead of fearing the hells after life, the ideology some humans espouse of a higher power makes it real right here. In separatism and zeal for that fiction that inspires the indignant viciousness in the name of man made holy writ. If there was a god, after all these many centuries of faithful depravity victimizing it's creation, one would think it would step up and exercise it's own free will in putting a stop to the depravity that makes for such bad press! And inspires atheism, rather than accept that icon as a savior of any persuasion. When what deviant of the believers inspires, is the prayer for salvation from them!

Are you serious?

How would that work?

creation: "God we don't like how you treated us!" *pout* *foot stamp*

God: "Be gone."

creation: *poof*

God: "OK, next!"

This is an illusion, and as such, other illusions with all the horror and control of a "god" and the crueltys of it's adherents, spin out from this one.

All those innicent people who think the've been following the right way, are in for a fest of controlled horror they should have known better then to believe in the first place.

Meanwhile, the rest of us are feeling those things from them while they are here.

Actually, with respect to the bold font you excerpted into my reply/quote, it would work the other way around.

Creation: "God, we don't like how you treated us!" *pout* *Foot stamp* "Be Gone"

God:

Creation: "Next!"

It happens all the time. Atheists, agnostics, pagans that are by and large polytheists, make god to cease to exist all the time. The "god" identity is a subjective identity to which humans apply a reason, through the unreason of mythologies, to explain the unexplainable. Their existence, creation, fate, etc...

Polytheists may or may not identify with the christian connotation of yahweh. They may choose to give any other name to that intangible cause of effect . They may honor a Greek pantheon, a Sumerian list of deities like Inanna, etc... Different names, same ideology. Giving an identity to the progenitor of human being and consciousness .

You might be interested in reading this:

http://mama.indstate.edu/users/nizrael/jesusrefutation.html

It was written for Jews facing Christian missionaries. It tells where the story of Jesus might come from. It is a lengthy article.

There are other pagan myths that are similar to the story of Jesus, not just the Egyptian one you mentioned.

This was a very interesting read. I do not understand the title of the thread, but that's fine. I believe in Jesus, and found your information intriguing. I did not read the entire thread, but is there the possibility of getting references for the Horus statements?

I believe it is interesting the parallels between Horus and Jesus. Now, let us make a few assumptions from a Christian perspective (mine, from the LDS Christian perspective):

• Adam and all prophets between there and Moses existed.
• These men spoke concerning the birth of a "savior"/"messiah" in the future.
• Some prophecies/statements may not have survived the verbal tradition between Joseph and Moses.

If such assumptions are possible, the Egyptian religion could have evolved from a prominent Egyptian figures (biblically Joseph became second only to the Pharaoh in Egyptian politics.) I have a strong belief in diffusion, I believe that many religions are a result of diffusion.

Could someone assuming an objective stance admit the possibility of such? I believe the possibility is possible. It follows then, as a Biblically based individual, I also must admit the possibility of the opposite position. I admit it possible that the Israelites were influenced by the Egyptians.

I believe God spoke to all peoples throughout history in an attempt to bring all mankind to him. This leads to the possibility that originally there was no true difference between the various religions, only in the later interpretive traditions that led to a very different presented concept (akin to the common wispered message example where a group passes the information one to another until the end where we find a form that often does not contain the intent of the original.) God then is viewed as the one presenting the initial message. Alterations could occur immediately following the original "prophet's" death. Thus, diffusion is not the only possible explanation.

In conclusion, similarities do not necesstiate a threat to any given religious position.

Regardless, thank you for the information.

Edit: You may find a perusal of the LDS Book of Abraham found in our Pearl of Great Price, regardless of belief as to its authenticity

But don't you (Brave New World) believe in jesus? So you create a thread not meant for people like you!?



Fascinating bump. There's another akin to it in the Spirituality and Skeptics forum. Speaking about pagan gods similar to the christ myth. You should check it out Jim88. It's new.

Here's some more Pagan/Christianity links based on days and festivals:
New Years Day:
Christians adopt it from Romans as a religious festival to commemorate Jesus' circumcision
St Valentines Day:
Christians adopt it from Roman festival Lupercalia and renamed it Valentines Day after a Christian saint
Easter time:
Named after Eostre whose festival was celebrated at this time of year, adopted by Christians commemorating the resurrection of Christ
Hot Cross Buns:
Eating of buns from pagan worship of the full moon adopted by Christians for Easter
Easter Eggs:
Pagans celebrate rebirth of nature at the time of solar new year, Christians adopt it as a symbol of Christs resurrection
Easter Bunny:
Animal sacred to goddess Eostre, Christians adopt it as a symbol of spring and resurrection
Halloween:
A Druid belief adopted by Christians changing it from a fearsome night into a jolly occasion
Yuletide and the Yule Log:
A Scandinavian celebration of Juul adopted by Christianity and made it custom to place a log on the hearth on Christmas Eve
Christmas gifts:
Ancient Roman custom practised at that time of the year, pagan tradition adopted by Christians
Boxing Day:
Pagan tradition at the time of Saturnalia, adopted by Christians and given new meaning

That is but a few examples, so why wouldn't Christianity 'adopt' another pagan example? Early Christians tried changing many of these customs but when they couldn't they gave them new meanings. The Bible was written by Christians, the details are not actually fact so maybe the writers did 'borrow' some ideas from Horus for Jesus' life.

All things similar are not identical.

Similarity precludes singularity

No question. Early church fathers were quite aware of the parallels between Christianity and the mysteries/pagan religions..

"When we say that the Word, who is the first-birth of God, was produced without sexual union, and that He, Jesus Christ, our Teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter." [Justin Martyr, First Apology, 21]

AND:

... Like their modern counterparts, early apologists sought to distinguish the Christian rites of initiation from those celebrated by others. Justin Martyr (ca. 150 CE), for example, claimed that the pagan mysteries were demonic counterfeits of the true mysteries of Christ. Yet by the fourth century, as the church adapted to Hellenistic culture, the mystria of Christ reflected both the terminology and the structure of the ancient mystery cults.--GREGORY SHAW, Professor of Religious Studies at Stonehill College

AND:

... Many of the stories about Jesus contained in these ancient documents [Gospels, canonical and not] Father Kannengiesser says, were tales commonly applied to mythical figures and heroes of the time. It was almost obligatory to have such stories available,� the theologian says; they were stock stories told to convert people to Jesus.� Tales of virgin births, divine heroes, and miracles workers were relatively common 2,000 years ago and simply did not mean what they do to us today.--Kerry Temple (PhD), Editor, Notre Dame Magazine

Sean

common knowledge?
you might want to alert the other 3 billion people that don't know that...



or Abraham may have actually talked to God... the Bible doesn't say why Abraham of all people was chosen...
so there is always the possibility that it happened the way the text says it happened...



that doesn't make sense... because there IS historical record of Jesus and His disciples... there is historical referrence from outside the Bible of how they were killed...
something else that doesn't make sense... why would followers of a knowingly false story let themselves die just to pull a hoax? not one person that claimed to have followed Jesus ever changed their story... even to the point of death... i've never heard of anyone going that far to pull off a hoax...

Sean,

If I may, I'm going to copy and paste these for the Mithras/christianity? thread . Very pertinent, I think, to that discussion thus far.

This is really what I've come to believe over the years. While there are different interpretations, the concept is still the same.

I'm not well versed in the LDS (although I do live down the street from a temple) -- for years I thought they were all batty until I started reading some LDS opinions and while I still have some issues with the practice, some of the theories aren't at all unlike what I believe. Some are quite shockingly similar.

When I start to compare my own chosen denomination with some others, I find this weird commonality in practice and belief... mainly with Mennonites, Mormons, Amish, *gasp* some JW's, and some non-denominationals. I find my belief is furthest away from Catholic and Judiasm. How odd, I don't think I would have said that 5 years ago.

I don't think any amount of evidence to support Jesus' existence as a man would therefore prove the son of God had set foot on earth. It would just prove that there once was a mortal man called Jesus.

As for how far people will go even if they are representing something which is not true... well, just because it wasn't true doesn't mean they didn't believe it was... there are plenty of people who are convinced of things that are complete nonsense. We had a thread recently about the chap who is supposed to be the messiah (can't remember his name)... the bloke in white robes. Perhaps he believes he is the messiah... I imagine his followers believe it or they wouldn't be following him. Would they die for that belief? Wouldn't you die for yours?

here's the problem though... Jesus maid the crazy claim that He would get up again if they killed Him...
had He not gotten up, why would they die for a man that couldn't do what He said He would do? Not only that, they claimed to have seen Him after He was killed... with that said... who is going to die to pull off a hoax?

it comes down to... either He did get up or He didn't... obviously, they were VERY convinced that He got up... not because the body wasn't there... but because He appeared and talked to them after He got up...

if Jesus had just died and stayed dead... like many other religious leaders that sprang up at that time... i'm sure His followers would have just drifted back into Jewish society and Christianity wouldn't be so big...

and the guy you are talking about is Maitreya... and i'm sure he probably convinced people that he is the messiah... so did David Koresh... and we see how that one turned out...

LMAO - Deleted link for language!

Even though I do find that all these similar stories have caused me to doubt the veracity of God theories, I think PA makes a good point in saying you can find comparisons like this if you are selective in what you look for.

2000 years from now could we say that Bill Clinton didn't really exist because he's just an evolution of Hitler????


Hitler lost his father at an early age
Clinton lost his father in a car accident before he was born.

Hitler was abused physically as a child.
So was Clinton.


Hitler was considered a gifted public speaker
So was Clinton.

Hitler had a secret mistress.
So did Clinton

Hitler appealed to the economic needs of his country
So did Clinton.

Hitler pushed for National Health Care for the country.
So did Clinton

Just because you find similarities doesn't mean the person didn't exist. It doesn't mean he's a Messiah though.

I'm not going to take the whole quote because it's just really long. I haven't read through the thread completely, but after reading many myths, it is not only Jesus and Horus that have parallels others that can be compared are Hercules, and Heracles. I'm not too sure about Heracles, but based on Hercules one can make the following comparisons:

-They both are son of a creator or highest god
-They are both sent down to earth as human, though still have godly powers.
-They both end up sacreficing for everyone in order to re-ascend back into their heaven.
-They are both tempted by the darkness (Hades, Satan)
-They both die and come back again.

With these, personally I find that Jesus carries all the qualities of a heroic myth. But then why do we still believe that it is truth? Possibly it is because Christianity is a more recent religion and possibly because it has gained worldwide reknown, usually by converting primitive peoples or by the sword (missionaries, Paul's travels, the crusades, WWI & WWII, the Gulf War past and present(possibly), colonization).

Actually, that is true to a degree. Enlil from Sumeria decides to flood the human race. Enki warns Noah, and tricks Adam out of eternal life. He also mixes the languages at the Tower of Babel. Perhaps the "universal savior" that periodiclcally appears to various segments of the population is the same diety as well.

I have found that the LDS doctrines are rather rational, it is one reason I believe in it. Although, I believe, that given the right person, one could get an irrational response similar to much of mainstream Christianity.

A decent read if you want a fairly rational approach to various theological questions within the LDS faith is "Evidences and Reconiliations" by John A. Widtsoe (now deceased), of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles of the LDS Church. Here is a link to the text online:

Evidences and Reconiliations

The text is a collection of questions posed by members of the LDS Church on subjects ranging from science and evolution to the great flood to general LDS doctrine. I will at times reference it when looking for a proper educated explanation/response to various religious topics.