Why do some folks seem to dislike NASA so much? Frankly, I can't see where this belief comes from at all. I'm interested in hearing from those who consider NASA in this manner...why do you believe the *naughty* label is accurate?

I thought this was going to be something "naughty"....ppsshh

*leaves*

easy their involved in the alien/ufo cover-up that's why.

Maybe because NASA reports the truth; supported by facts and logic. They don't like to be told there is really no Pleiadian base located on Mars.
.
.
.

Edit: Looks like I was right on the mark.

explain?

I'm confused.

So is there a Pleiadian Base on Mars?

It doesn't have to be anything that stupid. I don't think anyone seriously denies that the US government has been lying for well over 50 years about its interest in UFOs. NASA is one of those agencies through whom that lie is propagated. The government would not have to admit any outrageous thing to set the record straight-- just the abundantly obvious fact that it has been interested in UFOs all along. That would be a major breakthrough.

Anyway, NASA plays a role in this, but I don't think it's particularly their fault.

Well, there's no evidence of any alien bases on Mars.

This actually fits in nicely with my point in starting this thread...evidence. Often people will use the idea of NASA having "nefarious motives and lying" as being some sort of evidence for their beliefs.

Waspie_Dwarf pointed out this circular reasoning quite well:



This kind of thinking is fallacious, it's an example of begging the question.

Really? I thought it was a straw man argument because I haven’t noticed anyone here on this forum use that logic.

I have noticed 'Today NASA speculates that maybe there is evidence of water on Mars' which some people have morphed into 'NASA has found water on the surface of Mars" Should I insert 'wacko' smilie?

Faith...it's a funny thing..

i don't think nasa is good or evil it just that there are groups that has to be careful what they do or put out. there are groups that know things but they don't want us to know and there groups that do.

Actually, I wasn't really even thinking about the NASA water issue when I started this thread. I had no intention of forming a strawman (a weaker form of another persons argument) in relation to any particular/specific issue.

What I am talking about is the tendency I've seen to implicate NASA in covering up evidence of everything from UFOs being ET space ships, the moon landing being a hoax, alien bases on the moon and Mars, ancient alien ruins in the Cydonia region of Mars...this type of thing.

Well, where do i start. Many astronauts seeing objects in space, and told to be quiet. Objects filmed by nasas own cameras. Nasa workers coming forward saying that alot of photos which have ufos are air brushed out.Conversations with ground control and astonauts that are vey strange indeed. Now i know we need the hardcore evidence, but there is enough there, for me to know that something is going on, and we are not being told the truth. Its really not hard to see, if you look.

Thats why people have a problem with nasa. Its not all make believe.

To tell you the truth, it amazes me that some people ask questions like this, because it is so obvious that something is happening, but people just chose to ignore it and say stuff like why do people dislike nasa.

Fair enough I’m just playing devils advocate for once…

Personally-I think NASA is a great organization. I prefer to see it as a collection of highly talented individuals rather than one entity; some these people would obviously have more access to information than others. Is Nasa part of a cover-up? I don't know nor will I pretend to know.

However, I would like more information about these Nasa vids

Well, according to Dan Brown in Deception Point its because NASA wastes too much of american money

That's what I was thinking, too.

Perhaps there are extraterrestrial bases planted on Mars, and NASA just isn't giving us the in-depth information. Maybe the government knows of different species of ETs already and know the locations of their planet, but they refuse to tell us. Perhaps it's because they think that we would panic too much to know this information?

I remember seeing a documentary, where an individual was basically saying that he seen pictures of an alien base on the moon. According to him, there were high-rise structures and dome hangars.

You never know what could exist. We can only believe as much as the government tells us.

yikes!! we can?

Agreed.

Having personally watched strange vessels cruise through the skies by my home, and seeing many other accounts of people seeing similar phenomenon, the most logical conclusion is that there is something foreign in our skies. Since NASA goes to space all of the time, has satellites all over the place, as well as some level of cooperation from military radar operators, it stands to reason that they would have a little more knowledge about WHAT it is that is flying through our skies. The fact that they deny any kind of knowledge, (or perhaps refuse to achnowledge the phenomenon at all,) immediately makes them suspect to me.

The question that I have, is why do people beleive what NASA says, while refusing to believe what other credible people have to say? I am not just talking about normal civillians that report seeing an alien or UFO, (though these are certainly worthy of consideration), but high level government personnel. To choose to be skeptical in regards to one group while blindly trusting another is just as bad as going back to the good old days of religion in my opinion.

Well there is enough evidence that this is not taken seriously, even though something we cannot explain is happeing at the moment. Lets just look at what some astronauts have said.

Major Gordon Cooper

One of the original Mercury Astronauts and the last American to fly in space alone. On May 15, 1963 he shot into space in a Mercury capsule for a 22 orbit journey around the world. During the final orbit, Major Gordon Cooper told the tracking station at Muchea (near Perth Australia) that he could see a glowing, greenish object ahead of him quickly approaching his capsule. The UFO was real and solid, because it was picked up by Muchea's tracking radar. Cooper's sighting was reported by the National Broadcast Company, which was covering the flight step by step; but when Cooper landed, reporters were told that they would not be allowed to question him about the UFO sighting.

Major Cooper was a firm believer in UFOs. Ten years earlier, in 1951 he had sighted a UFO while piloting an F-86 Sabrejet over Western Germany. They were metallic, saucer-shaped discs at considerable altitude and could out-maneuver all American fighter planes. Major Cooper also testified before the United Nations: "I believe that these extra-terrestrial vehicles and their crews are visiting this planet from other planets... Most astronauts were reluctant to discuss UFOs." "I did have occasion in 1951 to have two days of observation of many flights of them, of different sizes, flying in fighter formation, generally from east to west over Europe."

And according to a taped interview by J. L. Ferrando, Major Cooper said: "For many years I have lived with a secret, in a secrecy imposed on all specialists in astronautics. I can now reveal that every day, in the USA, our radar instruments capture objects of form and composition unknown to us. And there are thousands of witness reports and a quantity of documents to prove this, but nobody wants to make them public. Why? Because authority is afraid that people may think of God knows what kind of horrible invaders. So the password still is: We have to avoid panic by all means."
"I was furthermore a witness to an extraordinary phenomenon, here on this planet Earth. It happened a few months ago in Florida. There I saw with my own eyes a defined area of ground being consumed by flames, with four indentions left by a flying object which had descended in the middle of a field. Beings had left the craft (there were other traces to prove this). They seemed to have studied topography, they had collected soil samples and, eventually, they returned to where they had come from, disappearing at enormous speed... I happen to know that authority did just about everything to keep this incident from the press and TV, in fear of a panicky reaction from the public."

Donald Slayton

Donald Slayton, a Mercury astronaut, revealed in an interview he had seen UFOs in 1951: "I was testing a P-51 fighter in Minneapolis when I spotted this object. I was at about 10,000 feet on a nice, bright, sunny afternoon. I thought the object was a kite, then I realized that no kite is gonna fly that high." As I got closer it looked like a weather balloon, grey and about three feet in diameter. But as soon as I got behind the darn thing it didn't look like a balloon anymore. It looked like a saucer, a disk. About the same time, I realized that it was suddenly going away from me - and there I was, running at about 300 miles per hour. I tracked it for a little way, and then all of a sudden the damn thing just took off. It pulled about a 45 degree climbing turn and accelerated and just flat disappeared."

Robert White

On July 17, 1962 Major Robert White reported a UFO during his fifty-eight-mile high flight of an X-15. Major White reported: "I have no idea what it could be. It was grayish in color and about thrity to forty feet away."
Then according to a Time Magazine article, Major White exclaimed over the radio: "There ARE things out there! There absolutely is!"

Joseph A. Walker

On May 11, 1962 NASA pilot Joseph Walker said that one of his tasks was to detect UFOs during his X-15 flights. He had filmed five or six UFOs during his record breaking fifty-mile-high flight in April, 1962. It was the second time he had filmed UFOs in flight. During a lecture at the Second National Conference on the Peaceful Uses of Space Research in Seattle, Washigton he said: "I don't feel like speculating about them. All I know is what appeared on the film which was developed after the flight." - Joseph Walker To date none of those films has been released to the public for viewing.

Eugene Cernan

was commander of Apollo 17. In a Los Angeles Times article in 1973 he said, about UFOs: "...I've been asked (about UFOs) and I've said publicly I thought they (UFOs) were somebody else, some other civilization."

Ed White & James McDivitt

In June 1965, astronauts Ed White (first American to walk in space) and James McDivitt were passing over Hawaii in a Gemini spacecraft when they saw a weird-looking metallic object. The UFO had long arms sticking out of it. McDivitt took pictures with a cine-camera. Those pictures have never been released.

James Lovell and Frank Borman

In December 1965, Gemini astronauts James Lovell and Frank Borman also saw a UFO during their second orbit of their record-breaking 14 day flight. Borman reported that he saw an unidentified spacecraft some distance from their capsule. Gemini Control, at Cape Kennedy told him that he was seeing the final stage of their own Titan booster rocket. Borman confirmed that he could see the booster rocket all right, but that he could also see something completely different.


During James Lovell's flight on Gemini 7:

Lovell: BOGEY AT 10 O'CLOCK HIGH.

Capcom: This is Houston. Say again 7.
Lovell: SAID WE HAVE A BOGEY AT 10 O'CLOCK HIGH.

Capcom: Gemini 7, is that the booster or is that an actual sighting?
Lovell: WE HAVE SEVERAL...ACTUAL SIGHTING.

Capcom: ...Estimated distance or size?
Lovell: WE ALSO HAVE THE BOOSTER IN SIGHT...

Neil Armstrong & Edwin Aldrin

According to the NASA Astronaut Neil Armstrong, the Aliens have a base on the Moon and told us in no uncertain terms to get off and stay off the Moon. According to un-confirmed reports, both Neil Armstrong and Edwin "Buzz" Aldrin saw UFOs shortly after that historic landing on the Moon in Apollo 11 on 21 July 1969. I remember hearing one of the astronauts refer to a "light" in or on a crater during the television transmission, followed by a request from mission control for further information. Nothing more was heard. According to a former NASA employee Otto Binder, unnamed radio hams with their own VHF receiving facilities that bypassed NASA's broadcasting outlets picked up the following exchange:

NASA: Whats there?
Mission Control calling Apollo 11...

Apollo11: These "Babies" are huge, Sir! Enormous!
OH MY GOD! You wouldn't believe it!
I'm telling you there are other spacecraft out there,
Lined up on the far side of the crater edge!
They're on the Moon watching us!



A certain professor, who wished to remain anonymous, was engaged in a discussion with Neil Armstrong during a NASA symposium.

Professor: What REALLY happened out there with Apollo 11?

Armstrong: It was incredible, of course we had always known
there was a possibility, the fact is, we were
warned off! (by the Aliens). There was never any
question then of a space station or a moon city.

Professor: How do you mean "warned off"?

Armstrong: I can't go into details, except to say that their
ships were far superior to ours both in size and
technology - Boy, were they big! and menacing!
No, there is no question of a space station.

Professor: But NASA had other missions after Apollo 11?

Armstrong: Naturally - NASA was committed at that time, and
couldn't risk panic on Earth. But it really was a
quick scoop and back again.
According to a Dr. Vladimir Azhazha: "Neil Armstrong relayed the message to Mission Control that two large, mysterious objects were watching them after having landed near the moon module. But this message was never heard by the public - because NASA censored it."
According to a Dr. Aleksandr Kasantsev, Buzz Aldrin took color movie film of the UFOs from inside the module, and continued filming them after he and Armstrong went outside. Armstrong confirmed that the story was true but refused to go into further detail, beyond admitting that the CIA was behind the cover-up.

Maurice Chatelain

In 1979 Maurice Chatelain, former chief of NASA Communications Systems confirmed that Armstrong had indeed reported seeing two UFOs on the rim of a crater. Chatelain believes that some UFOs may come from our own solar system, specifically Titan. "The encounter was common knowledge in NASA, but nobody has talked about it until now." "...all Apollo and Gemini flights were followed, both at a distance and sometimes also quite closely, by space vehicles of extraterrestrial origin - flying saucers, or UFOs, if you want to call them by that name. Every time it occurred, the astronauts informed Mission Control, who then ordered absolute silence." "I think that Walter Schirra aboard Mercury 8 was the first of the astronauts to use the code name 'Santa Claus' to indicate the presence of flying saucers next to space capsules. However, his announcements were barely noticed by the general public. It was a little different when James Lovell on board the Apollo 8 command module came out from behind the moon and said for everybody to hear: 'PLEASE BE INFORMED THAT THERE IS A SANTA CLAUS.' Even though this happened on Christmas Day 1968, many people sensed a hidden meaning in those words." The rumors persist. NASA may well be a civilian agency, but many of its programs are funded by the defence budget and most of the astronauts are subject to military security regulations. Apart from the fact that the National Security Agency screens all films and probably radio communications as well. We have the statements by Otto Binder, Dr. Garry Henderson and Maurice Chatelain that the astronauts were under strict orders not to discuss their sightings. And Gordon Cooper has testified to a United Nations committee that one of the astronauts actually witnessed a UFO on the ground. If there is no secrecy, why has this sighting not been made public?

Scott Carpenter

At no time, when the astronauts were in space were they alone: there was a constant surveillance by UFOs."

The pictures on this site alone is enough proof that NASA is faking and tampering with photos: http://www.geocities.com/nasascam/

On some of these pics you can actually see the edge of where two different photos are pasted together to look like one. This is visible where the background slopes merges with the foreground. Here is a good example directly from NASA, this pic taken at station 5 :

Look at that sharp line up with the astronauts head, where the light toned slope meets the ground. You can see it move all the way out to the right. And notice the longer light toned slope to the right of the astronaut, which curves down all the way to the left one.

This pic is taken at station 7, but notice to the right is the exact same slope and mountain again:


Here is a pic from the landing site, marked X on the map below. Notice the EXACT same slope and mountain again right behind the lander, with the light toned slope right on the left of the lander. And what happened with that right slope i mentioned above?:


Station 6, but still the very same slope and mountain there again:


Station 9-- and you guessed it, the slope and mountain again:


The pictures were taken at completely different locations in different directions, below is a map showing the different stations the pics above was taken:


EDIT:
By some reason the second image is not working any more, I get following message from the nasa server "The link you followed is either outdated, inaccurate, or the server has been instructed not to let you have it." It worked just a couple minutes earlier. Hope it works for you

For more evidence that they faked it, check this site which has a lot of information , pics and videos. On one clip you can actually see the reflection of the wire the astronauts were using to make the illusion of low gravity LOL

http://www.ufos-aliens.co.uk/cosmicapollo.html

im not a huge believer that we did not go to the moon, as i believe we did, but can anyone explain these photos for me??

I haven't spent a lot of time looking into this conspiracy either, because NASA holds most of the cards to this game. It has also been so long ago that it is hard to find any kind of evidence besides the photo's. However, I did spend several years in New York on an LDS mission when I was younger, and one of the father's of one of the families that I visited worked at NASA. He was not religious himself, in fact he was very polite in humoring his wifes religious tendency's. I first heard about the fake moon landing while I was in New York, and I asked this guy if there was any validity to it. I expected him to say that it was just nut jobs making conspiracies, but he said, "I have never been on the moon."

I said, "Yes, but you work for NASA. You must know whether men have actually been to the moon."

Again, he just replied, "All that I can say is that I have never been to the moon."

He wouldn't say anything else about it.

Anyway, that's the extent of my knowledge on the fake moon landing theory.

Some of the stuff is very interesting, and im going to study this and then see the other side of the coin.
The footage with the two people claiming to know about nasa airbrushing stuff out is very interesting.

The moan hoax conspiracy...what a nightmare.
I fully accept we did go to the moon but it is surprisingly complex to prove; as MID (ex Nasa engineer) says in the conspiracy section of the UM-
"It is rocket science and you do need to understand rocket science to understand how exactly we went to the moon"

Also you should be wary of some of the moon hoax websites; they have been proven to fabricate pictures and take video footage out of context to deliberately try and mislead you.
My advice don't bother.. you're messing with a 'positive' scientific fact. which is a different ball game altogether- you have to present an argument to accepted scientific standards; the moon hoaxers get mullered in the conspiracy section.

I agree with one of the points you made. You don't need HARD EVIDENCE to know that something funny is going on.

It's sort of like knowing when your best friend is lying to you.. Something just doesn't seem right.

true!

That is a very interesting web site, and he definitely has some very good arguments.

moan hoax LOL pretty much say it for me too. I was 7 years old and watched the multi day ordeal unravel before my eyes on tv, its a vivid memory of niel stepping off the ladder onto the moon surface. I've always been proud of the fact that we did it. 10's of thousands of people were involved, some of the brightest minds on the face of the planet in fact. We really are talking about thousands of employees here... each photo shown here to be hoaxed has also been shown to be legitimate by more reliable sources. The lady in the disclosure project was saying items were airbrushed or edited.. could be true but I think she was referring to a ufo. nasa astro imaging archives are very friendly with a slight lag time before public can access.. but its offered for free and I get hubble and other images quite often, I like nasa just fine so far. Dont ask me to prove anything, I've been in this conversation before and I cant win it

The vid about air brushed pics was interesting-who was that guy? but as for the moon hoax pics and video footage it's all been discussed here in detail-

Did humans land on the moon?

Only 271 pages long... but if you're interested in the moon hoax- it's worth reading.

I really find it hard to believe that we did not go to the moon, but some things, at the moment i just cant explain, like the same hills in the backround. im going to look at what other experts are saying too
The lady and the man talking on the video is very interesting!

Yeah true! I think the Russian's would have been the first ones to try and point out we hoaxed it.
It was done in the name of all mankind so I'd hate see all our achievements go down the drain



UFO's or dare I say it IAC identified alien craft are a different story- I've seen enough evidence- not in the public domain to convince me- and more so besides. Alas though, I have no proof..

I think NASA is pressed by the army. Take Mars for instance, amy doesn't want people to know that it's surface is similar to the surface of Earth, because that would arouse peoples interest into space exploration and army would loose it's money. And we all know how big money sucker is army. For instance just to develop B-2 bomber it needed 40 billion dollars + 1 billion to build it, but when it come to developing new space crafts there isn't enough money.

Mountains are large, large objects occupy large spaces. What's so unusual about the same landscape appearing in several photographs?

Exactly. For those of us who aren't rocket scientists, I recommend reading JayUtah's Clavius site.




Absolutely correct assessment.

I'm not trying to make this into another moon hoax thread, this is not the conspiracy section after all. I suggest that the discussion of the moon hoax photos be taken to that forum.

I'm not trying to create a strawman argument either. The truth is that some people do use circular argumentation to support the UFOs=ET space craft hypothesis. Take for example morrison's post here regarding things that astronauts *said* about UFOs and aliens. Some of this is flat out simply not correct. While Gordon Cooper did clain to see a "flying saucer" type of UFO, the part that goes into Armstrong being warned off the moon (begins with: A certain professor, who wished to remain anonymous, was engaged in a discussion with Neil Armstrong during a NASA symposium) is a complete fabrication. A great deal of the "NASA lies" thing is simply hearsay designed to support the "cover up" hypothesis. Now, perhaps there is a cover up, and perhaps things are being kept from the public, but reasoning like this (that seems to involve a great deal fabrication on the cover up believers as well) is indeed circular reasoning/begging the question.

I agree with Lilly on this.

Why some people feel the need to fabricate and make up crap about a proven scientific fact, the moonlandings, Ill never understand. The very same people then turns around and claim that there are aliens on the moon, Mars, and on Earth, and NASA is covering it all up.

The hoax, or cover-up, if true, is fooling a vast cadre of experts world-wide, yet ineptly unable to pull the wool over the eyes of a few ideologues on some fringe web sites.

I think not.


And MID is ABSOLUTELY the person here on UM to ask about anything regarding the Apollo moonlandings.

Maybe with the high cost to get them there some folks expected more scenic variety for their buck.

How do you know it was not true? If you look you will see that there is more than one person who could clarify that something happened. The other astronauts testimonies are from there own mouths. So are they lying? Have they now joined the wacko group?
former NASA employee Otto Binder, unnamed radio hams with their own VHF receiving facilities that bypassed NASA's broadcasting outlets picked up the following exchange

NASA: Whats there?
Mission Control calling Apollo 11...


Apollo11: These "Babies" are huge, Sir! Enormous! OH MY GOD! You wouldn't believe it! I'm telling you there are other spacecraft out there, Lined up on the far side of the crater edge! They're on the Moon watching us!
Armstrong confirmed that the story was true but refused to go into further detail, beyond admitting that the CIA was behind the
cover-up

Who knows what really happend, you dont, and i dont.




No, it is supported by witnesses coming out of nasa, military and the government. Also because of the unexplained objects that have been witnessed in space and filmed, plus ground control and astronauts conversations. If you want to believe thats all rubbish, then thats up to you. If you want to keep on saying i want that hardcore evidence before you even start to open your eyes, thats up to you too. But if you cant see that nasa is covering-up something, well, then you never will.

No..... your right, they dont want people to know because they are planing a mass EVAC to mars and only smart people can come. Were leaving the idiots like you on earth to get hit by an asteroid. This is supposed to be on the down low because we dont want to tell the idiots about our plan because then they would want to come.

I wasn't speaking in a literal sense.

The question should be, is this information verifiable, corroborated in any way.



I'm not saying anything beyond that some of this text is only hearsay. However, Mr. Armstrong has publically denied that he saw any aliens on the moon.




Once again, an unnamed source...hearsay, not verifiable evidence.




Correct, but injecting hearsay into the mix is unlikely to get us any closer to anything verifiable.



I don't believe one way or the other. I choose to not *believe* at all, I prefer to know.



Actually, my eyes are open. But yes, I do want some hardcore evidence before I reach any conclusion. NASA could be covering up something, or nothing at all...there's no way to really know. However, if one thinks that NASA inherently lies at every chance, then any evidence they produce (pictures, scientific data etc.) should not be considered. I find that very often folks will embrace NASA evidence when it's convenient, but easily denounce NASA as liars when the evidence does not support their position.

[quote]The question should be, is this information verifiable, corroborated in any way.[/quote]

Well, thats what you will have to find out.

[quote]I'm not saying anything beyond that some of this text is only hearsay. However, Mr. Armstrong has publically denied that he saw any aliens on the moon[/quote][/quote]

Well you should look at all of it, not just the bits you think you can de-bunk. Armstrong publically denied? to you have a link to this?

[quote]Once again, an unnamed source...hearsay, not verifiable evidence.[/quote]

maybe yes, maybe not.


[quote]Correct, but injecting hearsay into the mix is unlikely to get us any closer to anything verifiable[/quote]

when i look at cases i dont stop when i think something does not sound right.

[quote]I don't believe one way or the other. I choose to not *believe* at all, I prefer to know.[/quote]

hhhmmmm

[quote]Actually, my eyes are open. But yes, I do want some hardcore evidence before I reach any conclusion. NASA could be covering up something, or nothing at all...there's no way to really know. However, if one thinks that NASA inherently lies at every chance, then any evidence they produce (pictures, scientific data etc.) should not be considered. I find that very often folks will embrace NASA evidence when it's convenient, but easily denounce NASA as liars when the evidence does not support their position.[/quote]

Evidence does support that they know more than they are telling. And i have told you why i, and many people think this. Your thread started with you saying why people dont like nasa, or feel they are lying, so i told you why

Take a look at this thread from the Apollo Hoax forum. The public denial I'm thinking of may have been Buzz Aldrin dismissing this piece of text as fictional. However, I've never seen Mr. Armstrong publically comment upon seeing aliens on the moon.

dude, wtf!! i thought the same thing. where's my nekked astronaut?

Right on! Just like Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxay, right? All of the telephone sanitizers, lawyers, and seat warmers will be sent on an "ark" to another planet.

ME2

Oh god here we go again

''I remember seeing a documentary, where an individual was basically saying.....blah blah blah

see this is the sort of flaky logic that send these threads down so many blind alleys.

'' I saw some guy on telly once say that he's seen photos of an alien structure on the moon, or was it mars, perhaps i heard it on the radio, perhaps it was actually a woman, actually thinking about it , it was a dream i once had......''

LOL. I don't agree, but very amusing.

To be honest I got swept up by the very first round of this way back, dont even remember when it was but its been quite some time ago. Capricorn1 and all that.. Anyway, just been over and over this stuff and unlike the UFO subject the evidence (which are the photos mostly, but not limited to) can be heavily scrutinized by scientific means, and it has been a lot over the years. It didnt take me long to put it behind me.. I think if you stay tuned for very long you will be convinced also I love haggling about controversial subjects a lot but this one just has nothing left for me unless something really intriguing comes out, supported by some very compelling witness testimony.

Here's pictures of alien bases on the moon.

http://www.holloworbs.com/Lunar_3.gif

http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/4251/al...4circled9vt.png

http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/4821/al...5circled6qt.png

http://img58.imageshack.us/img58/3180/alie...3circled7rl.png

http://img53.imageshack.us/img53/4845/alie...2circled1mi.png

http://img311.imageshack.us/img311/8992/al...ecircled1to.png

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=htt...6lr%3D%26sa%3DN