Full Version: Please explain
What did Jesus mean when he said "my God, my God why haste thou forsaken me"? Some idiot told me recently that it was not Jesus who was dying and the person was asking Jesus the question. Can any of this be true. Was Jesus a fake Jesus or what? I want to get to Heaven without a handbasket. Please help me.
QUOTE(les b @ Dec 8 2006, 05:26 PM) [snapback]1455567[/snapback]
What did Jesus mean when he said "my God, my God why haste thou forsaken me"? Some idiot told me recently that it was not Jesus who was dying and the person was asking Jesus the question. Can any of this be true. Was Jesus a fake Jesus or what? I want to get to Heaven without a handbasket. Please help me.
Jesus died to pay for the sins of all mankind. At the moment he was screaming, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" He was "covered" with all of those sins, and God, the Father was unable to be in unity with Jesus because of all that sin. So, in effect, for the first and only time in all of eternity, God, the Son was not in unity with God, the Father and God, the Holy Spirit.
[quote name='IamsSon' date='Dec 8 2006, 11:39 PM' post='1455583']
--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(les b @ Dec 8 2006, 05:26 PM) [snapback]1455567[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
What did Jesus mean when he said "my God, my God why haste thou forsaken me"? Some idiot told me recently that it was not Jesus who was dying and the person was asking Jesus the question. Can any of this be true. Was Jesus a fake Jesus or what? I want to get to Heaven without a handbasket. Please help me.
Jesus died to pay for the sins of all mankind. At the moment he was screaming, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" He was "covered" with all of those sins, and God, the Father was unable to be in unity with Jesus because of all that sin. So, in effect, for the first and only time in all of eternity, God, the Son was not in unity with God, the Father and God, the Holy S
Luke 23-26 seems to indicate that there were people trying to save Jesus from death and may have suceeded. I guess they didn't know Jesus was supposed to die.
--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(les b @ Dec 8 2006, 05:26 PM) [snapback]1455567[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What did Jesus mean when he said "my God, my God why haste thou forsaken me"? Some idiot told me recently that it was not Jesus who was dying and the person was asking Jesus the question. Can any of this be true. Was Jesus a fake Jesus or what? I want to get to Heaven without a handbasket. Please help me.
Jesus died to pay for the sins of all mankind. At the moment he was screaming, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" He was "covered" with all of those sins, and God, the Father was unable to be in unity with Jesus because of all that sin. So, in effect, for the first and only time in all of eternity, God, the Son was not in unity with God, the Father and God, the Holy S
Luke 23-26 seems to indicate that there were people trying to save Jesus from death and may have suceeded. I guess they didn't know Jesus was supposed to die.
Oh sure, always leave me to explain this stuff.
I should think that in desparate agony one would welcome any sort of relief from death or salvation. But according to doctrine, Jesus was first and foremost a man with all the temptations and sensations of a man. He was a man who didn't want to die but wanted release from his death which didn't come for hours.
Yet we still treat one another like animals. There is little empathy most of the time.
I should think that in desparate agony one would welcome any sort of relief from death or salvation. But according to doctrine, Jesus was first and foremost a man with all the temptations and sensations of a man. He was a man who didn't want to die but wanted release from his death which didn't come for hours.
Yet we still treat one another like animals. There is little empathy most of the time.
Actually you are all wrong. The following is the true answer to the question you are seeking which can be found on www.urantia.org. I will highlight the specific paragraph but you should read the entire section and infact I highly recommend the Urantia book to all.
QUOTE
5. LAST HOUR ON THE CROSS
Although it was early in the season for such a phenomenon, shortly after twelve o'clock the sky darkened by reason of the fine sand in the air. The people of Jerusalem knew that this meant the coming of one of those hot-wind sandstorms from the Arabian desert. Before one o'clock the sky was so dark the sun was hid, and the remainder of the crowd hastened back to the city. When the Master gave up his life shortly after this hour, less than thirty people were present, only the thirteen Roman soldiers and a group of about fifteen believers. These believers were all women except two, Jude, Jesus' brother, and John Zebedee, who returned to the scene just before the Master expired.
Shortly after one o'clock, amidst the increasing darkness of the fierce sandstorm, Jesus began to fail in human consciousness. His last words of mercy, forgiveness, and admonition had been spoken. His last wish--concerning the care of his mother--had been expressed. During this hour of approaching death the human mind of Jesus resorted to the repetition of many passages in the Hebrew scriptures, particularly the Psalms. The last conscious thought of the human Jesus was concerned with the repetition in his mind of a portion of the Book of Psalms now known as the twentieth, twenty-first, and twenty-second Psalms. While his lips would often move, he was too weak to utter the words as these passages, which he so well knew by heart, would pass through his mind. Only a few times did those standing by catch some utterance, such as, "I know the Lord will save his anointed," "Your hand shall find out all my enemies," and "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" Jesus did not for one moment entertain the slightest doubt that he had lived in accordance with the Father's will; and he never doubted that he was now laying down his life in the flesh in accordance with his Father's will. He did not feel that the Father had forsaken him; he was merely reciting in his vanishing consciousness many Scriptures, among them this twenty-second Psalm, which begins with "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" And this happened to be one of the three passages which were spoken with sufficient clearness to be heard by those standing by.
The last request which the mortal Jesus made of his fellows was about half past one o'clock when, a second time, he said, "I thirst," and the same captain of the guard again moistened his lips with the same sponge wet in the sour wine, in those days commonly called vinegar.
The sandstorm grew in intensity and the heavens increasingly darkened. Still the soldiers and the small group of believers stood by. The soldiers crouched near the cross, huddled together to protect themselves from the cutting sand. The mother of John and others watched from a distance where they were somewhat sheltered by an overhanging rock. When the Master finally breathed his
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last, there were present at the foot of his cross John Zebedee, his brother Jude, his sister Ruth, Mary Magdalene, and Rebecca, onetime of Sepphoris.
It was just before three o'clock when Jesus, with a loud voice, cried out, "It is finished! Father, into your hands I commend my spirit." And when he had thus spoken, he bowed his head and gave up the life struggle. When the Roman centurion saw how Jesus died, he smote his breast and said: "This was indeed a righteous man; truly he must have been a Son of God." And from that hour he began to believe in Jesus.
Jesus died royally--as he had lived. He freely admitted his kingship and remained master of the situation throughout the tragic day. He went willingly to his ignominious death, after he had provided for the safety of his chosen apostles. He wisely restrained Peter's trouble-making violence and provided that John might be near him right up to the end of his mortal existence. He revealed his true nature to the murderous Sanhedrin and reminded Pilate of the source of his sovereign authority as a Son of God. He started out to Golgotha bearing his own crossbeam and finished up his loving bestowal by handing over his spirit of mortal acquirement to the Paradise Father. After such a life--and at such a death--the Master could truly say, "It is finished."
Because this was the preparation day for both the Passover and the Sabbath, the Jews did not want these bodies to be exposed on Golgotha. Therefore they went before Pilate asking that the legs of these three men be broken, that they be dispatched, so that they could be taken down from their crosses and cast into the criminal burial pits before sundown. When Pilate heard this request, he forthwith sent three soldiers to break the legs and dispatch Jesus and the two brigands.
When these soldiers arrived at Golgotha, they did accordingly to the two thieves, but they found Jesus already dead, much to their surprise. However, in order to make sure of his death, one of the soldiers pierced his left side with his spear. Though it was common for the victims of crucifixion to linger alive upon the cross for even two or three days, the overwhelming emotional agony and the acute spiritual anguish of Jesus brought an end to his mortal life in the flesh in a little less than five and one-half hours.
Although it was early in the season for such a phenomenon, shortly after twelve o'clock the sky darkened by reason of the fine sand in the air. The people of Jerusalem knew that this meant the coming of one of those hot-wind sandstorms from the Arabian desert. Before one o'clock the sky was so dark the sun was hid, and the remainder of the crowd hastened back to the city. When the Master gave up his life shortly after this hour, less than thirty people were present, only the thirteen Roman soldiers and a group of about fifteen believers. These believers were all women except two, Jude, Jesus' brother, and John Zebedee, who returned to the scene just before the Master expired.
Shortly after one o'clock, amidst the increasing darkness of the fierce sandstorm, Jesus began to fail in human consciousness. His last words of mercy, forgiveness, and admonition had been spoken. His last wish--concerning the care of his mother--had been expressed. During this hour of approaching death the human mind of Jesus resorted to the repetition of many passages in the Hebrew scriptures, particularly the Psalms. The last conscious thought of the human Jesus was concerned with the repetition in his mind of a portion of the Book of Psalms now known as the twentieth, twenty-first, and twenty-second Psalms. While his lips would often move, he was too weak to utter the words as these passages, which he so well knew by heart, would pass through his mind. Only a few times did those standing by catch some utterance, such as, "I know the Lord will save his anointed," "Your hand shall find out all my enemies," and "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" Jesus did not for one moment entertain the slightest doubt that he had lived in accordance with the Father's will; and he never doubted that he was now laying down his life in the flesh in accordance with his Father's will. He did not feel that the Father had forsaken him; he was merely reciting in his vanishing consciousness many Scriptures, among them this twenty-second Psalm, which begins with "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" And this happened to be one of the three passages which were spoken with sufficient clearness to be heard by those standing by.
The last request which the mortal Jesus made of his fellows was about half past one o'clock when, a second time, he said, "I thirst," and the same captain of the guard again moistened his lips with the same sponge wet in the sour wine, in those days commonly called vinegar.
The sandstorm grew in intensity and the heavens increasingly darkened. Still the soldiers and the small group of believers stood by. The soldiers crouched near the cross, huddled together to protect themselves from the cutting sand. The mother of John and others watched from a distance where they were somewhat sheltered by an overhanging rock. When the Master finally breathed his
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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last, there were present at the foot of his cross John Zebedee, his brother Jude, his sister Ruth, Mary Magdalene, and Rebecca, onetime of Sepphoris.
It was just before three o'clock when Jesus, with a loud voice, cried out, "It is finished! Father, into your hands I commend my spirit." And when he had thus spoken, he bowed his head and gave up the life struggle. When the Roman centurion saw how Jesus died, he smote his breast and said: "This was indeed a righteous man; truly he must have been a Son of God." And from that hour he began to believe in Jesus.
Jesus died royally--as he had lived. He freely admitted his kingship and remained master of the situation throughout the tragic day. He went willingly to his ignominious death, after he had provided for the safety of his chosen apostles. He wisely restrained Peter's trouble-making violence and provided that John might be near him right up to the end of his mortal existence. He revealed his true nature to the murderous Sanhedrin and reminded Pilate of the source of his sovereign authority as a Son of God. He started out to Golgotha bearing his own crossbeam and finished up his loving bestowal by handing over his spirit of mortal acquirement to the Paradise Father. After such a life--and at such a death--the Master could truly say, "It is finished."
Because this was the preparation day for both the Passover and the Sabbath, the Jews did not want these bodies to be exposed on Golgotha. Therefore they went before Pilate asking that the legs of these three men be broken, that they be dispatched, so that they could be taken down from their crosses and cast into the criminal burial pits before sundown. When Pilate heard this request, he forthwith sent three soldiers to break the legs and dispatch Jesus and the two brigands.
When these soldiers arrived at Golgotha, they did accordingly to the two thieves, but they found Jesus already dead, much to their surprise. However, in order to make sure of his death, one of the soldiers pierced his left side with his spear. Though it was common for the victims of crucifixion to linger alive upon the cross for even two or three days, the overwhelming emotional agony and the acute spiritual anguish of Jesus brought an end to his mortal life in the flesh in a little less than five and one-half hours.
QUOTE(Luminary @ Dec 8 2006, 06:12 PM) [snapback]1455616[/snapback]
Actually you are all wrong. The following is the true answer to the question you are seeking which can be found on www.urantia.org. I will highlight the specific paragraph but you should read the entire section and infact I highly recommend the Urantia book to all.
Luminary; I stand corrected. Thanks for the post.
Was it Simon of Cyrene (sp?) who some legends say took Jesus' place upon the cross?
QUOTE(les b @ Dec 8 2006, 05:26 PM) [snapback]1455567[/snapback]
What did Jesus mean when he said "my God, my God why haste thou forsaken me"? Some idiot told me recently that it was not Jesus who was dying and the person was asking Jesus the question. Can any of this be true. Was Jesus a fake Jesus or what? I want to get to Heaven without a handbasket. Please help me.
This is actually an important scripture because it proves Jesus did not claim to be God Himself, as some modern Christian sects wish to believe. If he was God Himself, why would he be asking himself why he had forsaken himself? And of every word spoken by Jesus, these are probably the morst accurately recorded, because his death was witnessed by hundreds of people. Jesus never claimed to be God the father, and the early Christians never believed this either.
One of my favorite early Christian depictions of heaven depicts God on a throne of living Cherubim-dragons, the seat being their coiled tails. One is gobbling up a sinner who evidently didn't pass heavenly judgement. Jesus is clearly depicted sitting on God's lap!, God being considerably larger.
QUOTE(les b @ Dec 8 2006, 11:26 PM) [snapback]1455567[/snapback]
What did Jesus mean when he said "my God, my God why haste thou forsaken me"?
I think he meant "Oh thanks a bunch Dad!, Cheers nice one.. I spread your good work across the land and this is all the thanks I get? Hey! I was just thinking dad, can't you ZAP em or something? Kill em all!"
QUOTE(billyhill @ Dec 10 2006, 08:58 PM) [snapback]1457140[/snapback]
--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(les b @ Dec 8 2006, 11:26 PM) [snapback]1455567[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What did Jesus mean when he said "my God, my God why haste thou forsaken me"?I think he meant "Oh thanks a bunch Dad!, Cheers nice one.. I spread your good work across the land and this is all the thanks I get? Hey! I was just thinking dad, can't you ZAP em or something? Kill em all!"
The whole idea behind the Jesus project was to attempt to satisfy an invisable god by replaceing Abel with an exact corresponding match from the loins of Man. Jesus "may" have known what his part was. He may have been hidden from the truth by Augustus.
www.urantia.org.... Interesting, but reads to me like sci-fi, I'll stick to the bible that has been around for hundreds of years, thank you.
I think IamsSon is right in that in that moment Jesus was bearing all the sins of the world, for all time, for every person, ever. God purposefully seperated himself from Jesus and in his anguish of the sins and his total aloneness, Jesus cried out.
I think IamsSon is right in that in that moment Jesus was bearing all the sins of the world, for all time, for every person, ever. God purposefully seperated himself from Jesus and in his anguish of the sins and his total aloneness, Jesus cried out.
QUOTE(les b @ Dec 8 2006, 11:26 PM) [snapback]1455567[/snapback]
What did Jesus mean when he said "my God, my God why haste thou forsaken me"? Some idiot told me recently that it was not Jesus who was dying and the person was asking Jesus the question. Can any of this be true. Was Jesus a fake Jesus or what? I want to get to Heaven without a handbasket. Please help me.
Isn't it one of the most fundamental foundations of christianity that Jesus knew that his destiny was the cross? There wasn't and couldn't have been any substitution of Jesus by someone else on the cross. Jesus himself would never have allowed it since that was the real reason for his coming to humanity as one of us.
His sacrifice on that cross wasn't just about dying a righteous man but was the culmination of Gods entire plan from the beginning, to redeem mankind from the sin that it brought on itself. When he died he took upon himself all the sin of the world, from the Adam and Eves' original sin to the sins we will all still commit in the future, and he offered himself in our place as the ultimate sacrifice, so that we can be spared Gods judgement of our sin.
Since God cannot look upon sin, God turned his face from Jesus so as not to witness this voluntary sacrifice. Jesus uttered these words because at that moment he was truly alone carrying an impossible burden. For the 1st time in his life he felt separation from the presence of God in his life. When Jesus uttered these words he was in fact crying out in spiritual pain, since he had never been seperated from Gods presence before and he felt that abandonement severely. No matter how Godly he was he was also a man in all aspects, but he was a man that saw his mission through to the end.
He knew beforehand what was going to happen and when he asked God in the garden of Gethsemane:"My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will", he was talking specifically about that very separation that would happen on the cross.
P.S. - Shouldn't this thread be in the Spirituality and Religion Forum?
QUOTE
www.urantia.org.... Interesting, but reads to me like sci-fi, I'll stick to the bible that has been around for hundreds of years, thank you.
If you actually bothered to look into the book you so quickly dismiss you would notice that it talks about the life of Jesus far more than the entirety of the Bible itself which happens to be the main character of the Bible. How you can so easily overlook that for the It's an extremely comprehensive new age Bible written by the angels who live amongst us in this galaxy that were alive during the days of all events in this galaxy so to say there is a lot to learn from the Urantia book is a severe understatement. Try looking into things more before dismissing them so eagerly. Trust me that there is much you don't know and so you've been given the great ability from God, to absorb, reason and evaluate information intuitively which is what seperates us from animals to begin with. You say it sounds too science fiction but lets just say that God is the inventor of all science and as such, Jesus and the angels would also possess knowledge of extremely advanced scientific and mathematical concepts which would of course allow them to possess technology that even our best science fiction writers haven't even thought up. Read the book, trust me.
QUOTE(DieChecker @ Dec 11 2006, 10:39 AM) [snapback]1457831[/snapback]
www.urantia.org.... Interesting, but reads to me like sci-fi.
*cough* CULT *cough*
Anyway. I always thought that Christ said what he said because he'd grown up believing to be the son of god (as everyone around him had told him), and was therefore expecting to have some sort of power over the Romans, instead his arrest and humiliation was quite public and effortless. Hence his cry when he thought god had left him.
Please refrain from personal attacks and insults.
QUOTE(Luminary @ Dec 12 2006, 04:13 AM) [snapback]1459112[/snapback]
If you actually bothered to look into the book you so quickly dismiss you would notice that it talks about the life of Jesus far more than the entirety of the Bible itself which happens to be the main character of the Bible. How you can so easily overlook that for the It's an extremely comprehensive new age Bible written by the angels who live amongst us in this galaxy that were alive during the days of all events in this galaxy so to say there is a lot to learn from the Urantia book is a severe understatement. Try looking into things more before dismissing them so eagerly. Trust me that there is much you don't know and so you've been given the great ability from God, to absorb, reason and evaluate information intuitively which is what seperates us from animals to begin with. You say it sounds too science fiction but lets just say that God is the inventor of all science and as such, Jesus and the angels would also possess knowledge of extremely advanced scientific and mathematical concepts which would of course allow them to possess technology that even our best science fiction writers haven't even thought up. Read the book, trust me.
People usually read the blurb on the back of a book to determine if it is something they will read. From what I read on the site, I was able to determine that this book is not something I would normally want to read. I feel it would be interesting, but I would put it in the same catagory as the DaVinci Code. Something that takes from the historical Bible and adds to it to get readers. The fact that it goes more into detail about Jesus then any other source leads me to doubt it as truth. The only evidence is taken from the angels who for some reason passed the knowledge onto the author.
The author claims to have something like 400,000 people who have studied the book, but there are something like 2.1 Billion Christians in the world. I'll side with the Christians for now. http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html
As far as I understand, the Bible was written by people, and the new testament only has 4 gospels out of at least 40 that were written, all approximately at the same time, yet all decades after the life and death of Jesus, so who can really say what is the absolute truth? To me, truth is something people try to get at but never quite reach it, on most things. I do not believe the Bible is the absolute truth, for the reasons mentioned above, but I am no atheist either. The more I see crazed Christian extremists preaching how everyone who's not with them is going to hell, makes me go further of the church. Jesus Christ, the teacher, the real person who lived back then would probably be disgusted of how his teachings have been distorted, and what has born from them. Just take a look at how much organized religion has caused pain and suffering in the world...
QUOTE(Luminary @ Dec 12 2006, 12:13 PM) [snapback]1459112[/snapback]
If you actually bothered to look into the book you so quickly dismiss you would notice that it talks about the life of Jesus far more than the entirety of the Bible itself which happens to be the main character of the Bible. How you can so easily overlook that for the It's an extremely comprehensive new age Bible written by the angels who live amongst us in this galaxy that were alive during the days of all events in this galaxy so to say there is a lot to learn from the Urantia book is a severe understatement. Try looking into things more before dismissing them so eagerly. Trust me that there is much you don't know and so you've been given the great ability from God, to absorb, reason and evaluate information intuitively which is what seperates us from animals to begin with. You say it sounds too science fiction but lets just say that God is the inventor of all science and as such, Jesus and the angels would also possess knowledge of extremely advanced scientific and mathematical concepts which would of course allow them to possess technology that even our best science fiction writers haven't even thought up. Read the book, trust me.
URANTIA was written by a writer in Chicago. The closest he came to being an angel is he was an albino.
QUOTE(Clocker @ Dec 13 2006, 07:03 PM) [snapback]1460339[/snapback]
As far as I understand, the Bible was written by people, and the new testament only has 4 gospels out of at least 40 that were written, all approximately at the same time, yet all decades after the life and death of Jesus, so who can really say what is the absolute truth? To me, truth is something people try to get at but never quite reach it, on most things. I do not believe the Bible is the absolute truth, for the reasons mentioned above, but I am no atheist either. The more I see crazed Christian extremists preaching how everyone who's not with them is going to hell, makes me go further of the church. Jesus Christ, the teacher, the real person who lived back then would probably be disgusted of how his teachings have been distorted, and what has born from them. Just take a look at how much organized religion has caused pain and suffering in the world...
I think Jesus was high most of the time. A lot of the "one love" rhetoric he spewed out sounds like stuff that modern hippies drone on with. You know, the ones who won't get a job because they don't want to be used by "the man", but have their hand out for government benefits. Although, I also believe a lot of sayings and parables attributed to Jesus were invented by the authors of the books from the New Testament.
QUOTE(avs76 @ Dec 17 2006, 06:41 AM) [snapback]1465195[/snapback]
I think Jesus was high most of the time. A lot of the "one love" rhetoric he spewed out sounds like stuff that modern hippies drone on with. You know, the ones who won't get a job because they don't want to be used by "the man", but have their hand out for government benefits. Although, I also believe a lot of sayings and parables attributed to Jesus were invented by the authors of the books from the New Testament.
Hmm, talking just for the sake of making sound won't do wonders for your rep. But don't let me stop you, I'm falling over laughing...
I don't usually comment on discussions like this, however a good book to read is http://www.knight-lomas.com/hiramkey.html. There's some wild theories backed with some good evidence in there, and some of the lineage is hard to follow on top of the book being really hard to read because of so much information. I really enjoyed it though. It makes reference in the book about Jesus and his brother James both in competition for leading the qumran sect after John the Baptist was beheaded. In the book they talk about how the council had to quel the uprising by eliminating either the Jesus "king of the jews," or his brother James "son of god." They chose to crucify the king of the jews and so on.
I'm not saying the book is true or anything, but I would read it, really neat ideas and theorys.
I'm not saying the book is true or anything, but I would read it, really neat ideas and theorys.
I have never fully understood why Jesus had to "die for our sins". The concept just seems like an extention of the gruesome blood atmonments that had been practiced as a religious staple of thousands of years. I cant help but wonder if people were less fixated on his death and more fixated on his life and teachings, if the world might be a better place?
QUOTE(el midgetron @ Dec 17 2006, 12:38 PM) [snapback]1465494[/snapback]
I have never fully understood why Jesus had to "die for our sins". The concept just seems like an extention of the gruesome blood atmonments that had been practiced as a religious staple of thousands of years. I cant help but wonder if people were less fixated on his death and more fixated on his life and teachings, if the world might be a better place?
Hear, hear.
Read the sermon on the mount. I can almost feel religious when contemplating his words here but most religions downplay this.
QUOTE(Jor-el @ Dec 17 2006, 10:01 PM) [snapback]1465305[/snapback]
Hmm, talking just for the sake of making sound won't do wonders for your rep. But don't let me stop you, I'm falling over laughing...
I don't post to improve my "rep". I post because I feel I have something to add to the discussion, or to encourage debate. Hey, if posting to improve your rep is your thing, that's cool. Maybe they do things differently on planet Krypton.
QUOTE(el midgetron @ Dec 17 2006, 06:38 PM) [snapback]1465494[/snapback]
I have never fully understood why Jesus had to "die for our sins". The concept just seems like an extention of the gruesome blood atmonments that had been practiced as a religious staple of thousands of years. I cant help but wonder if people were less fixated on his death and more fixated on his life and teachings, if the world might be a better place?
You hit the nail right on the head. He was the ultimate blood atonement, so that from then on we would never have to atone through blood again. By accepting his ultimate sacrifice we are cleansed and that changes us in ways you can't even imagine, even if it doesn't make us perfect.
As for christians, (practicing christians that is) we are fixated more on his ressurection than his death, since that is a sign that Jeus was victorious not only over sin but over death as well. He is our act to follow, even with all the pitfalls in our very human nature.
QUOTE(avs76 @ Dec 17 2006, 10:37 PM) [snapback]1465704[/snapback]
I don't post to improve my "rep". I post because I feel I have something to add to the discussion, or to encourage debate. Hey, if posting to improve your rep is your thing, that's cool. Maybe they do things differently on planet Krypton.
Good for you, but posting that previous message was completely hilarious, Jesus the Ultimate Hippy!!!
Actually, Jesus took on all our sins during the Atonement in the Garden of Gesthemane. After that, the only thing needed to "seal the deal" was for him to die. The fact that they chose to crucify him is irrevalent. They could have hung him or beheaded him or pulled out his entrails and lit them on fire, the same outcome would have occured.
He cried out "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken Me?", because He, being human, was of course in pain, and, like most of us, would rather not be nailed to a cross. He had the power to live, but He chose to die and fulfill the Everlasting Atonement to save us all from spiritual death.
He cried out "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken Me?", because He, being human, was of course in pain, and, like most of us, would rather not be nailed to a cross. He had the power to live, but He chose to die and fulfill the Everlasting Atonement to save us all from spiritual death.
QUOTE(Orpheus @ Dec 18 2006, 11:08 AM) [snapback]1465807[/snapback]
Actually, Jesus took on all our sins during the Atonement in the Garden of Gesthemane. After that, the only thing needed to "seal the deal" was for him to die. The fact that they chose to crucify him is irrevalent. They could have hung him or beheaded him or pulled out his entrails and lit them on fire, the same outcome would have occured.
He cried out "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken Me?", because He, being human, was of course in pain, and, like most of us, would rather not be nailed to a cross. He had the power to live, but He chose to die and fulfill the Everlasting Atonement to save us all from spiritual death.
He cried out "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken Me?", because He, being human, was of course in pain, and, like most of us, would rather not be nailed to a cross. He had the power to live, but He chose to die and fulfill the Everlasting Atonement to save us all from spiritual death.
Please, I don't mean to be rude or insult your faith, I am confused though. I will draw your attention to when it is alleged that Jesus was tempted by Satan (Matthew 4:2-3, Matthew 4:5-6, Matthew 4:8-9). If Jesus had succumbed to Satan's temptations, would we be saying, "well, you know, Jesus was human, so of course He gave in"? Isn't the whole point that he is God-become-man? Surely when He was on the cross, He would have had constant and unending faith, even while dying an extremely painful death? We are told that Jesus is One who is "seated at the right hand of the Father" (Col 3:1). Surely having this kind of intimacy with God all of eternity except for 30-odd years would make Jesus' faith much higher than anyone else's. Just a thought.
By the way, Jor-El, glad to see you have a sense of humour, even if I don't.
Stormrush, that sounds really interesting. I will check it out!
QUOTE
He is our act to follow, even with all the pitfalls in our very human nature.
The act to follow is that of forgiveness of our fellow man.
QUOTE(avs76 @ Dec 18 2006, 04:37 AM) [snapback]1465951[/snapback]
Please, I don't mean to be rude or insult your faith, I am confused though. I will draw your attention to when it is alleged that Jesus was tempted by Satan (Matthew 4:2-3, Matthew 4:5-6, Matthew 4:8-9). If Jesus had succumbed to Satan's temptations, would we be saying, "well, you know, Jesus was human, so of course He gave in"? Isn't the whole point that he is God-become-man? Surely when He was on the cross, He would have had constant and unending faith, even while dying an extremely painful death? We are told that Jesus is One who is "seated at the right hand of the Father" (Col 3:1). Surely having this kind of intimacy with God all of eternity except for 30-odd years would make Jesus' faith much higher than anyone else's. Just a thought.
By the way, Jor-El, glad to see you have a sense of humour, even if I don't.
Stormrush, that sounds really interesting. I will check it out!
By the way, Jor-El, glad to see you have a sense of humour, even if I don't.
Stormrush, that sounds really interesting. I will check it out!
It is said that at the moment of Jesus crying out, that God the father had turned his face from Jesus due to the sin of the world he was carrying at the time. Combined with the pain of crucifiction, and the loss of the Fathers intimacy with him at that moment, I am amazed he wasn't more colourful in his statements. Even then his sinless nature was prevalent.
If we return to the "old fashioned/traditional concepts" of god and jesus it may help us to understand. God is an all powerful, basically benevolent entity, who created both angels and humans with free will. Both angels and humans chose to sin, and thus lost elements of godliness, the most critical of which was immortality. God, however, did not give up on humans, and gave them a second chance, by creating jesus, through the form of miraculous conception. Jesus was both a creation of god, but also a part of him. Thus, he was both son and god himself. He had the form of a human, but was filled with the spirit of god ( the third element of the traditional holy trinity) This made him capable of many of the same miracles which god is capable of directly manifesting; from changing molecules, (of water to wine), to raising the dead. Jesus's prime purpose was always to die, and in doing so offer all humans a chance to rejoin god, and become immortal once again. Any who take up this choice can enjoy everlasting life. To die he had to be human, and yes he could have chosen, as can all god's creations, not to fulfil his destiny. His love for us, and for his father, overcame the many temptations, and allowed him to fulfil his prime purpose. His second purpose was to teach, educate, and help people understand themselves, god, and the relationship which should exist between the two. Given human nature, i feel that this was the harder of the two tasks, and ever since, his message has been largely mis- understood and corrupted by humans. None the less, if you read both the old and new testaments and see them in context, with the life of jesus as a fulcrum between the two, you get a better understanding of humanity, god, and jesus. For instance, Jesus never said he had come to do away with the old laws and commandments, but rather to illustrate and reinforce them. Jesus, like his father was ultimately loving and forgiving, but also capable of judgement and of anger. After all, it is one of god's prime prerogatives to judge.
And so, as other posters have pointed out, Jesus died as a human being. He knew he would be resurrected as more than that, becoming an element of god himself, but as he died, he felt all the physical and emotional trauma that a human might. And one critical thing more. As Jesus died , he "gave up the (holy) ghost"/ his spirit departed. Remember that this was the spirit which connected jesus to god. It was a real and physical connection, which allowed jesus to communicate directly with god and to perform miracles. For the first time since his birth/conception, Jesus was, like the rest of us, separated from god, standing alone. He had to die this way to fulfil his role and prophecy. What would be more natural at that instant of rending separation, than to call out the words he did. For god had forsaken/ left/separated himself from jesus at that moment.
And so, as other posters have pointed out, Jesus died as a human being. He knew he would be resurrected as more than that, becoming an element of god himself, but as he died, he felt all the physical and emotional trauma that a human might. And one critical thing more. As Jesus died , he "gave up the (holy) ghost"/ his spirit departed. Remember that this was the spirit which connected jesus to god. It was a real and physical connection, which allowed jesus to communicate directly with god and to perform miracles. For the first time since his birth/conception, Jesus was, like the rest of us, separated from god, standing alone. He had to die this way to fulfil his role and prophecy. What would be more natural at that instant of rending separation, than to call out the words he did. For god had forsaken/ left/separated himself from jesus at that moment.
QUOTE(Mr Walker @ Dec 20 2006, 12:52 PM) [snapback]1468317[/snapback]
What would be more natural at that instant of rending separation, than to call out the words he did. For god had forsaken/ left/separated himself from jesus at that moment.
No man shall be able to resist you all the days of thy life: as I have been with Moses, so will I be with thee: I will not leave thee, nor forsake thee. (Joshua 1:5)
Does God's promise apply to everyone except Jesus (who was also a man)? If God can break a promise to Jesus, what's to say he won't break a promise to another person? Maybe He already has. And don't tell me I am taking this scripture out of context; it is often used in this way by churchleaders, etc to illustrate God's promise to never leave us.
In the end, god will not leave or forsake any one. As humans we may choose to turn away from him, but he will always be there if we turn back. In the end god had not left/forsaken jesus (jesus went back to sit at the right hand of god) However god and jesus were, during jesus life on earth, connected spiritually in a unique way (jesus after all was a physical part of god). Just on jesus's death, that link /connection was torn apart, and jesus was momentarily separated from the trinity. I can't imagine the diconnection this must have been, but possibly if you consider losing all memories of/feelings for your loved ones, it might give some taste of the anguish jesus felt at that moment. Knowing that it will all be restored would not dimiish the feeling much at the time.
Moving to the correct category.
He is quoting the first line of Psalm 22
QUOTE(Something Like Laughter @ Dec 26 2006, 07:14 AM) [snapback]1473868[/snapback]
He is quoting the first line of Psalm 22
And in the end did he really forsake Jesus?
The question is rhetorical since everybody who knows the story, knows exactly where Jesus is now!
Maybe it is our interpretations and preconceptions that need to be cleared up, quoting the word even from the mouth of pastors doesn't mean you're doing it right.
QUOTE(Jor-el @ Dec 26 2006, 03:59 PM) [snapback]1474308[/snapback]
And in the end did he really forsake Jesus?
The question is rhetorical since everybody who knows the story, knows exactly where Jesus is now!
Maybe it is our interpretations and preconceptions that need to be cleared up, quoting the word even from the mouth of pastors doesn't mean you're doing it right.
The question is rhetorical since everybody who knows the story, knows exactly where Jesus is now!
Maybe it is our interpretations and preconceptions that need to be cleared up, quoting the word even from the mouth of pastors doesn't mean you're doing it right.
Let's go over this again. A real Jew, since the time of Moses, would have said a prayer called the "Shema", which a Jew says when he dies. The BIshops of the church councils, once again, had no idea about Jewish customs.
Did anyone ever bother to ask why the translators left the apparant aramaic words in the KJV? No, I did not think so. No one ever does, so theology has to explain why God either forsook himself????? Or this nonsense that he could not stand sin and became a coward and left his Son. Well, the problem here is that the Aramaic translation provided is not accurate. Not even remotely close. The translators often leave the original language in place when they are not 100% sure of its meaning. This is the case and this can be looked up also for verification. The record in Matt 27:46 is as follows, "...Jesus cried with a loud voice and said, Eli, Eli lemana shabakthani! My God, my God for this purpose was I spared!" That is an accurate translation. So he never spoke what tradition has taught us erroneously. Not to mention that Jesus said that he could command 12 legions of angels if he needed them. You have to be on speaking terms with God to have that kind of clout.
Not to mention that this gives more proof that the originals were indeed estrangelo aramaic.
Not to mention that this gives more proof that the originals were indeed estrangelo aramaic.
QUOTE(Moondoggy @ Dec 26 2006, 08:55 PM) [snapback]1474550[/snapback]
Did anyone ever bother to ask why the translators left the apparant aramaic words in the KJV? No, I did not think so. No one ever does, so theology has to explain why God either forsook himself????? Or this nonsense that he could not stand sin and became a coward and left his Son. Well, the problem here is that the Aramaic translation provided is not accurate. Not even remotely close. The translators often leave the original language in place when they are not 100% sure of its meaning. This is the case and this can be looked up also for verification. The record in Matt 27:46 is as follows, "...Jesus cried with a loud voice and said, Eli, Eli lemana shabakthani! My God, my God for this purpose was I spared!" That is an accurate translation. So he never spoke what tradition has taught us erroneously. Not to mention that Jesus said that he could command 12 legions of angels if he needed them. You have to be on speaking terms with God to have that kind of clout.
Not to mention that this gives more proof that the originals were indeed estrangelo aramaic.
Not to mention that this gives more proof that the originals were indeed estrangelo aramaic.
This is similiar to the Christian practice of leaving the third verse of "O come all ye faithful" in Latin. The English sings "Lo he abhors not the virgin's womb!" You will never hear this sung out loud by a choir, ever.
QUOTE(Jor-el @ Dec 27 2006, 07:59 AM) [snapback]1474308[/snapback]
And in the end did he really forsake Jesus?
Did God really forsake David in Psalm 22, where this quote came from? Continuing through the end of that Psalm, you'll note that it ends on a high note and shows that God was in control all along, and it only seemed that God had forsaken him. Unlike today, people back then would have known where this quote came from, and known the context of that quote, and very likely understood straight away that it was never intended as a cry that he was abandoned, just that it looked like he was.QUOTE(GIDEON MAGE @ Dec 26 2006, 04:29 PM) [snapback]1474479[/snapback]
Let's go over this again. A real Jew, since the time of Moses, would have said a prayer called the "Shema", which a Jew says when he dies. The BIshops of the church councils, once again, had no idea about Jewish customs.
Hehe, thats ironic. Those stupid bishops atleast they could have got THAT right......
Somedays i begin to wonder if this 'Jesus' was COMPLETELY made up. Maybe yeshua never existed at all... *gasp* theres a scary thought!
QUOTE(Moondoggy @ Dec 26 2006, 05:55 PM) [snapback]1474550[/snapback]
Did anyone ever bother to ask why the translators left the apparant aramaic words in the KJV? No, I did not think so. No one ever does, so theology has to explain why God either forsook himself????? Or this nonsense that he could not stand sin and became a coward and left his Son. Well, the problem here is that the Aramaic translation provided is not accurate. Not even remotely close. The translators often leave the original language in place when they are not 100% sure of its meaning. This is the case and this can be looked up also for verification. The record in Matt 27:46 is as follows, "...Jesus cried with a loud voice and said, Eli, Eli lemana shabakthani! My God, my God for this purpose was I spared!" That is an accurate translation. So he never spoke what tradition has taught us erroneously. Not to mention that Jesus said that he could command 12 legions of angels if he needed them. You have to be on speaking terms with God to have that kind of clout.
Not to mention that this gives more proof that the originals were indeed estrangelo aramaic.
Not to mention that this gives more proof that the originals were indeed estrangelo aramaic.
exactly
With it that BLANTENTLY obvious I do not know why everyone believes Jesus is God. 
Im glad there are a few with common sense left ^.^ May luck follow you Moondoggy
QUOTE(Moondoggy @ Dec 27 2006, 12:55 PM) [snapback]1474550[/snapback]
Did anyone ever bother to ask why the translators left the apparant aramaic words in the KJV? No, I did not think so. No one ever does, so theology has to explain why God either forsook himself????? Or this nonsense that he could not stand sin and became a coward and left his Son. Well, the problem here is that the Aramaic translation provided is not accurate. Not even remotely close. The translators often leave the original language in place when they are not 100% sure of its meaning. This is the case and this can be looked up also for verification. The record in Matt 27:46 is as follows, "...Jesus cried with a loud voice and said, Eli, Eli lemana shabakthani! My God, my God for this purpose was I spared!" That is an accurate translation. So he never spoke what tradition has taught us erroneously. Not to mention that Jesus said that he could command 12 legions of angels if he needed them. You have to be on speaking terms with God to have that kind of clout.
Not to mention that this gives more proof that the originals were indeed estrangelo aramaic.
Not to mention that this gives more proof that the originals were indeed estrangelo aramaic.
I'd be interested to know what you used for a reference on this. So often when the original sources are looked at, the Bible means something else than has come down to us in our traditions. But don't try telling a fundamentalist that!
QUOTE(Desty @ Dec 28 2006, 05:24 PM) [snapback]1475844[/snapback]
exactly With it that BLANTENTLY obvious I do not know why everyone believes Jesus is God.
Im glad there are a few with common sense left ^.^ May luck follow you Moondoggy
With it that BLANTENTLY obvious I do not know why everyone believes Jesus is God. Im glad there are a few with common sense left ^.^ May luck follow you Moondoggy
In general, the Christian churches claim Jesus was God. In general, the churches are wrong.
Jesus himself only claimed to be the Son of God and the Son of Man. Which means he was both the Son of God and the Son of Man (i.e. a spiritual being and a human).
Which means that human beings are also spititual beings. And that human beings are the Sons of God. We are all the Sons of God. Jesus even says in the Bible that we are all capable of acts on Earth even greater than his/Jesus'.
I think this is the probably the most significant teaching in the NT, but it seems most Christians don't understand it.
QUOTE(rixtar @ Dec 27 2006, 11:08 PM) [snapback]1475863[/snapback]
In general, the Christian churches claim Jesus was God. In general, the churches are wrong.
Jesus himself only claimed to be the Son of God and the Son of Man. Which means he was both the Son of God and the Son of Man (i.e. a spiritual being and a human).
Which means that human beings are also spititual beings. And that human beings are the Sons of God. We are all the Sons of God. Jesus even says in the Bible that we are all capable of acts on Earth even greater than his/Jesus'.
I think this is the probably the most significant teaching in the NT, but it seems most Christians don't understand it.
Jesus himself only claimed to be the Son of God and the Son of Man. Which means he was both the Son of God and the Son of Man (i.e. a spiritual being and a human).
Which means that human beings are also spititual beings. And that human beings are the Sons of God. We are all the Sons of God. Jesus even says in the Bible that we are all capable of acts on Earth even greater than his/Jesus'.
I think this is the probably the most significant teaching in the NT, but it seems most Christians don't understand it.
Nope they only idolize he who bringeth the good news, put him on a stool and worship him ;(
I like the verse where a man asks jesus "good master" and jesus responds with, why do you call me good, there is but one who is good, that is God
^.^ peace be with you too Rixtar, I pray God blesses those who are not ignorant
but ever seeing; and diligently seeking truth in all things
QUOTE(GIDEON MAGE @ Dec 27 2006, 11:29 AM) [snapback]1474479[/snapback]
Let's go over this again. A real Jew, since the time of Moses, would have said a prayer called the "Shema", which a Jew says when he dies. The BIshops of the church councils, once again, had no idea about Jewish customs.
But then again, a "real Jew" would not have worked on the Sabbath, or advocated eating consectrated bread or eaten with sinners and tax collectors. A real Jew would have deferred to the obvious authority of the Pharisees and acknowledged their position in the synagogues! QUOTE(Paranoid Android @ Dec 28 2006, 04:11 AM) [snapback]1475951[/snapback]
But then again, a "real Jew" would not have worked on the Sabbath, or advocated eating consectrated bread or eaten with sinners and tax collectors. A real Jew would have deferred to the obvious authority of the Pharisees and acknowledged their position in the synagogues!
Exactly. A real jew would not be eating "bread" and dipping it on Pesach, or advocating even symbolically drinking blood. There are so many errors in the n.t. about Jewish customs, that it is easy to see why only pagans fell for it in the fourth century when they put the n.t. together. If they were targeting Jews, one would think that they would at least get the holidays and laws right. They would have also had Jesus saying the Shema when about to die. He apparently knew it, since he quoted it earlier.
QUOTE(Jor-el @ Dec 17 2006, 07:31 PM) [snapback]1465782[/snapback]
You hit the nail right on the head. He was the ultimate blood atonement, so that from then on we would never have to atone through blood again. By accepting his ultimate sacrifice we are cleansed and that changes us in ways you can't even imagine, even if it doesn't make us perfect.
As for christians, (practicing christians that is) we are fixated more on his ressurection than his death, since that is a sign that Jeus was victorious not only over sin but over death as well. He is our act to follow, even with all the pitfalls in our very human nature.
As for christians, (practicing christians that is) we are fixated more on his ressurection than his death, since that is a sign that Jeus was victorious not only over sin but over death as well. He is our act to follow, even with all the pitfalls in our very human nature.
As for christians, (practicing christians that is) we are fixated more on his ressurection than his death,
Ummmm, not to be contentious, but then why do you focus on the instrument of his death?
I mean, if I were to choose a symbol for a resurrected god or his religion, I think I would choose ANYTHING but the torture device that caused his demise.
The empty tomb, perhaps. Or a dove, or even the lamb. In fact, didn't the early Christians use the symbol of a fish for recognition?
QUOTE(JMPD1 @ Dec 29 2006, 02:20 AM) [snapback]1476901[/snapback]
As for christians, (practicing christians that is) we are fixated more on his ressurection than his death,
Ummmm, not to be contentious, but then why do you focus on the instrument of his death?
I mean, if I were to choose a symbol for a resurrected god or his religion, I think I would choose ANYTHING but the torture device that caused his demise.
The empty tomb, perhaps. Or a dove, or even the lamb. In fact, didn't the early Christians use the symbol of a fish for recognition?
Ummmm, not to be contentious, but then why do you focus on the instrument of his death?
I mean, if I were to choose a symbol for a resurrected god or his religion, I think I would choose ANYTHING but the torture device that caused his demise.
The empty tomb, perhaps. Or a dove, or even the lamb. In fact, didn't the early Christians use the symbol of a fish for recognition?
Exactly right. The fish symbol was one of the main symbols used to represent christ in the 1st centuries before christianity became an officialized religion. The cross and the crucified christ is a later addition to christian symbolism and became especially prevalent in the Roman Catholic Church.
I'm sure you've seen the fish symbol on cars and other vehicles, today it represents a faction of christianity that call themselves "born again christians", but in the 1st years it was the unofficial symbol for all of christianty.
As I mentioned in the post you quoted, being fixated on his ressurection more than his death is true of "practicing christians", but there are also people who are "non-practicing" christians or christians by "tradition" and these people adhere to traditional symbolism like the crucifix or statuettes of christ and the "saints".
For an indepth look at the symbols' origins, see: The Fish Symbol in Christianity
QUOTE(Jor-el @ Dec 29 2006, 05:39 AM) [snapback]1477360[/snapback]
As I mentioned in the post you quoted, being fixated on his ressurection more than his death is true of "practicing christians", but there are also people who are "non-practicing" christians or christians by "tradition" and these people adhere to traditional symbolism like the crucifix or statuettes of christ and the "saints".
No! Considering the horrifyingly blood history of the Christian Church (both RCC and Prot) the Roman instrument of torture used by the majority of Xians is highly appropriate. I think Xians should continue using this symbol, so that the rest of us may be reminded of the horrors perpetrated on the rest of us for the last 1700 years. Keep the cross!
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