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Startraveler
This may or may not be the correct forum for this article, as the topic is sort of a genre-bender (though I'm especially interested in what people who'd regularly browse this particular forum have to say about this). Regardless, it's a topic that's been increasingly weighing on my mind as of late. First, the Newsweek articlette:

QUOTE
Beliefwatch: Cosmology
Newsweek

Dec. 18, 2006 issue - The more the universe seems comprehensible," the physicist Steven Weinberg once wrote, "the more it seems pointless." It is said that many of his colleagues were dismayed, not by the assertion that the universe was pointless, but over the implication that it could even have a point. But then, retorts Paul Davies, the scientist and author of more than 20 books on cosmology, what's the point of science itself?

Davies, who has spent his career asking variations on this question, will now be in a position to look for answers as the head of a new cosmology think tank, provisionally named Beyond, at Arizona State University. The outfit, part of an ambitious effort by ASU president Michael Crow to stake out new intellectual territory for his young institution, will ask no easy questions, only deep ones like "Why are the laws of nature mathematical?"—something that's been gnawing at scientists for about 2,500 years. Davies says he wants to look into "the origin of the universe, life, consciousness and the emergence of humanity." Its first conference, later this month, will focus on what Davies calls "looking for life on Earth as we don't know it." Is our kind of DNA-based life the only kind there is? How could we tell? Where should we look for other examples? The idea that life might have evolved more than once is the central premise of the Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence, and thus of special interest to Davies, who heads SETI's "post-detection" committee—the best committee to be on, he says, since it never meets.

But it's also of special interest to him because he occupies an increasingly isolated position among top physicists, neither conventionally religious nor as ruthlessly skeptical as Weinberg. Davies has devoted his career to searching for the equation that will reveal what he calls "the mind of God," the metaphysical foundation for everything there is. "Scientists proceed on the assumption that there is a coherent scheme to the universe to be uncovered," he said last month at a conference on belief and reason at the Salk Institute that brought together many prominent atheists, including Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris. "That's also an act of faith." Davies then gave his own version of Weinberg's formula. "The more the universe seems pointless," he said, staring down his audience of hardened skeptics, "the more it is incomprehensible."

—Jerry Adler

>


I'm a student of physics, always with a particular eye toward astrophysics and cosmology. I'm also an atheist, in a sort of rigid scientific way. But as of late the inability of a scientific approach to potentially cover certain aspects of the universe and certain other unsettling aspects of physics have become problematic for me. I've never had much of a taste for philosophy but I think I can only describe the concerns I've been having as philosophical ones (in addition to a few more practical ones).

So I'm curious what some of you think. Is the universe pointless? Is it comprehensible? Is something more than physics needed?
Leonardo
The womb may seem pointless to the unborn child with no knowledge of the 'why' of its (the womb's) necessity.

We won't be able to answer these questions until we know a lot more about existence itself. Is there more to this than just our universe? If so, then we may find there is a point to the universe. It may just be a 'starting off' point, much like the womb for the child.

While I am not an atheist, I have reservations about there being a 'purpose' or 'plan' behind the universe or the existence of life. The anthropomorphic principle may be correct and the universe simply has to be the way it is for us to be here to observe it.

I am also a student of physics, however if I thought that we would never be able to discover more and explain much more of the universe and, perhaps, the questions about existence I would not bother with continuing my studies. I don't believe we've learned all there is to learn and I'm determined, in some small way, to contribute to our learning at some point in my future career. It may be that we will end up entangling various sciences in this quest to learn more. We are already starting to look at entangling physics and biology within the quantum world, chemistry has a long history of being a partner with other sciences (or they with chemistry if you are a chemist and take umbrage tongue.gif ).

Physics alone isn't likely to explain everything. If you harbour thoughts of seeking 'something more', perhaps a study of biology, philosophy etc may be the way forward for you (if you haven't already studied these). I don't see philosophy as being tied to religion, it is simply a way of expressing ideas in a less rigid framework than science would perhaps allow.
IamsSon
As you know, I am a Christian. I have also been a student of science for as far back as I can remember; my father encouraged us to learn, to study whatever interested us. From a purely scientific aspect, I am not certain that man will ever learn all there is to know about the universe we inhabit. Not so much because man is limited in some way, but because the universe is immensely more complicated than we think, so each time we think we are onto the answer all we find is that there were questions we didn't know to ask. Also, I think that because of the limit you have purposefully placed on your question: "Is the universe comprehensible to science?" the answer will always be "No." The majority of people who are members of this forum are here because they have experienced something that does not fit into the "normal" order of the universe, things that as hard as we try, cannot be explained by current scientific knowledge and methods.
brave_new_world
Good article!@! Very interesting


I think it is great you are starting to question the universe from another angle, especially a philosophical one. As einstien said: The most imcomprehensible thing about the universe is that it is comprehendsible. And another respected scientist in his field (although he isnt a physicist) is Carl Jung who once said: Every science is a function of the psyche, and all knowledge is rotted in it. The psyche is the greatest of all cosmic wonders.

What I am getting at it is this, that science to this day cannot explain how the brain/matter creates awareness/consciousness. And everyone knows that this is fundamental to existence and science (by the way I am not bring science down here at all, it has made marvellous discoveries and i am quite conscious that without it i wouldn't be able to post this post).

Try and remember that a spiritual/philosophical outlook on the universe does not have to be the same as an institutionalized religion. Buddhism is spiritual/ philosophical without using the concept of God, Hinduism says God pervades the whole universe and that pure consciousness is enlightenment . Many of the famous scientists who laid down the basic foundation of science even had a spiritual/religious side. Take Isaac Newton for an example:

This most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent being and powerful being. . . .This Being governs all things, not as the soul of the world, but as Lord over all. . . . He is eternal and infinite, omnipotent and omniscient. . . . He governs all things and knows all that are or can be. . . . .
Why there is one body in our system qualified to give light and heat to all the rest, I know no reason but because the Athur of the system thought it convenient.


Issac Newton also said this about atheism: "Atheism is so senseless and odious to mankind that it never had many professors."

Also many quantum physicists also were attracted to the mysticism part of religion/spirituality. Niels Bohr used the ying/yang symbol in his ocat or arms, Davud Bohm had long discussions apparently with Krishnamurti and Eriwn Schrodinger gave lectures on the Hindu Upanishads.

Even Albert Einstien once said:The most beautiful and most profound emotion we can experience is in the sensation of the mystical. It is a shower of all true science. . . That deeply emotional conviction of the presence of a superior reasoning power which is revealed in the comprehensible universe forms my idea of God.

And from Charles Darwin we hear this: The impossibility of conceiving that this grand and wondrous universe, with our conscious selves, arose through chance, seems to me the chief argument for the existence of God.

But yeah. The fact that science cannot prove how consciousness is created in itself to me seems to be the main indicator that there is definately something out there that must be looked at from an intuitive point of view and not one of a five-sense scientific point of view. Though the scientific method should be used where it can.
Science is a great means of dicovering truths about our universe but shouldn't in my opnion be considered as the only valid point of view.

As for your question whether the universe is pointless or not......I am really not qualified to answer that. Maybe it is....maybe not...maybe beyond both of these concepts....maybe both and beyond at the same time. I think personally that the answer lies in looking inwards into our consciousness, but I myself have never had a mystical experience so I am going by faith here.
But some good spiritual advice is not to get too caught up (preferably not at all) with organized religion. The only thing one should do when it comes to organized religion is observe the universal principals and assimilate them into ones belief system for application and it is up to the individual to determine what can be considered a universal spiritual/religious principal or not.

Aldous Huxley wrote in his brilliant book (and also my personal bible, literally it is):


It is only by making physical experiments that we can discover the intimate nature of matter and its potentialities. And it is only by making psychological and moral experiments that we can discover the intimate nature of mind and its potentialities. In the ordinary circumstances of average sensual life these potentialities of the mind remain latent and unmanifested. If we would realize them, we must fulfil certain conditions and obey certain rules, which experience has shown empirically to be valid.


Anyway I hope you gained something from this post. I am not here to bring science down or try and convert you to anything. Anyway buddy catch ya later original.gif
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