"journey of a personal god".

Christians most often reference the father-son relationship as the model for their deity...
A loving father who is there for them
What happens in a family if a parent were to only talk to one child at a time?
This is what we have with the deity father, and we see its results, often the favored , special child the child that obeys no questions asked.....
In exploring this familiar relationship, a singular exclusive interaction within a family structure, i can't help but wonder if this is damaging and the effects of this damage...how do you see this model, Discuss.....


a supra-hyper query

I would submit that God is talking to all his children. Some children just aren't listening

Well then, I would submit the parent need attend parenting classes. Because communication skills are one of the most vital qualities of good parenting there is.

And since we're playing with a parent/child analogy here let's continue. Verbal assaults on a child is abusive. It defeats the evolution of personal character and a sense of self worth, if the parent is verbally abusive. It retards the emotional security a child feels in the presence of the abusive parent. Causing a sense of self esteem to be contingent on the approval of said parent, the child, receiving verbal abuse, takes it as a personal recrimination. In essence they feel beset by the parent for being all that they are. All that they feel inside, on every level of psycho-social interaction with not only the parental unit but with their peer group as well. Physical abuse, which often accompanies verbal/emotional assaults, only further this sense of low self-esteem and an abandonment of any sense of self worth. Causing the child to feel beset on all sides and at a loss as to how to please the parental unit. Consequently they may act out. Because regardless of whether the parent is an abusive elder, the child will seek attention at a level to which they have become accustomed. Consequently this results in children acting out, just so they can at least glean the attention of the parent in a manner to which they are accustomed. Even when it's a dysfunctional relationship that involves assault.

If left unattended, or if a third party fails to intercede on the child's behalf. In effect becoming an advocate of their defense against such harmful attentions, the child will become hard wired into this sado-masochistic behavioral model. In effect seeking out recriminations, physical, emotional and/or verbal abuses, so as to feel what they have come to recognize as that familial affection, regardless of how dysfunctional the attention is in that regard.

This is why we witness children that are labeled as displaying, "at risk behaviors" . Because all that they do , while self-destructive, is a means of soliciting what they're use to in emotional, physical and verbal attentions. Which was imparted at the most tender of ages when they were in their formative years, and as such causes them to seek out that familiar sense of comfort and bonding to a parental role model, even in other persons not a parent(s) or guardian that imparted the abuse early on. Consequently these children are under developed emotionally and are retarded socially, because at all times they feel inferior, inadequate and worthless. So they seek out emotional and physical relationships that will sustain that sense of self-worth, regardless of how deficient it is in the average mien of what may be construed as "normal" relationships. Often times these adults will be found in physically and/or verbally/emotionally assaultive relationships. Seeking always to solicit that which has caused them to feel most at home, at even the cost of their personal well being.

However, before they mature to adulthood, and if they're lucky, a child advocate or some concerned outside family member will witness the abuse suffered by the child, at the hands of such a dysfunctional and abusive role model/parent, and intercede. In which case CPS (child protective services) will issue a petition and remove the child from the abusive environment. And if the child is truly blessed, they shall walk away from that hell, and the custodial environment afforded by the sadistic parent(s), never to return again while a minor. And when they reach the age of majority, depending upon the jurisdiction, they may look back and thank their lucky stars someone somewhere thought enough of them to save them from that parent that was unfit to have them in their custody from the beginning.


edit for phrase glitch

GW i couldn't of said it better myself, and having been a child of such an upbringing, one of the fortunate ones there is great hope and possibility after relgiion. if one gets help i was lucky to have awre guides who felt help was a must......i am a mother of three and i parent in non violence, non reward punishing construct and speak very loudly about the risks of and downright dangers of such a upbringing as this will come as no surprise i do personally feel it is very dangerous and devastating to bring a child up with this dogma....the harm and damage can be far reaching and many do not ever get over it....My Sister was not so fortuante she was a heroin addict at 11 and would end life at 28 from what we know now the conditons of childhood played a major if not pivitol role in her path...it can be argued that those without relgion have the same issues what i would say, relgion permeates most aspects of the human conditon, many parent use the reward punishment system to rear their children .without a second thought without any questions asked its a accepted form of parenting and many kids are harmed by it......


I truly use my life to raise awareness in hopes that no otherr child knows the pain of a loveless abusive childhood...for my sister....

Sorry, my apologies, I thought we were talking about God as he relates to us, not about raising children in Christian homes - which isn't necessarily a bad thing either, I've seen quite a few families bring up their children in a religious context, and do a fine job at it also. There are of course exceptions, and I understand Sheri that you were brought up in one such exceptional circumstance. It's unfortunate that this early upbringing has given you such a negative impression of a belief system which is not hardly as negative as you may think.

That's funny. From the first reply to the OT it would appear you started it. And to be clear, my analogy that expanded upon your commentary in no wise referred to a christian home.

*sighs*

Perhaps this is why we don't see the overt presence of god as described in the bible. Perhaps the supernatural CPS has fostered us out to someone else who knows better?

You don't have to be listening in on something to hear it. (At least, in the real world.) I hear a lot of noise every day, God talking never was nor ever will be part of that. Why? Because he is not talking to anybody physically. He's only talking to the Children that follow him, because the Children that follow him create experiences and stretch the truth to strengthen their belief. I've said this before, I didn't even think God was talking to me when I felt 100% sure he existed.

So what is God's relationship then? A friend? Do friends force you to obey their every last word on pain of death?
No, your God is not a friend, is not a father, he is a creul overlord. I'm just glad he doesn't exist.

EDIT: Sorry about the double post, I meant to edit the other post with this

The relationship really is one of a creation to his Creator. That relationship has some similarities to the father - child relationship, but that is only one component.



God does not force you to obey every last word on pain of death. If He was forcing us to do that you would not be able to doubt His existence. He only requires one thing of you: Accept the gift that will bring you back in unity with Him. That's all.

He he this is something that you and Hyper with come with- or ah who knows I am probably assuming.

I think God loves all his kids and listens to each and every one- but yet you know how sometimes our kid wants to eat cookies before supper? Shouldn't the child eat a substantial meal prior to the cookie? God is loking out for us and we all deserve rewards but we first have to eat of the regular food before we can eat the "sweets"

And he requires that.. on pain of death. It's not a "take it or leave it" kind of thing. It's.. "If you don't do it, I will torture you, I will kill you, and then I will hand you over to the most evil being in existance and give him free reign over you for eternity". That's what it is, whether you want to accept it or not.
The Christian God is no less violent or more loving than Allah as an example. He only kills the infidels himself rather than having his followers do it.

There's no such thing as a relationship as a creator. A creator does not imply any style of relationship, only that he has created.



You can't look at it like that. It's not some cutesy "you get a cookie" type of thing. It's.. "You are damned to eternal suffering, and if you do not accept a blood sacrifice to save your weasly little soul, I'm sending you off to hell first thing after the rapture". How can anyone call that loving?

101, you assume correct, hyper is the brains in this outfit though..lol

wow this thread is interesting to say the least....

PA many kids brought up in christian homes and non christian homes are parented under the Reward/punishment construct and too some degree are affected by this form of parenting/relationship..We are exploring the harms if there are indeed any it seems for some there is, some ther isn't we are exploring that in this thread.....
have you read any of KBA's posts he can tell you first hand the affects of the father /son relationship beiing addressed in this thread......

Son, somewhere in la la land still sees this as "gods love", his testament to his devotion to his 'god' son can you dream of a love that is unconditional , can you imagine what it would be like to actually have a choice and if you truly felt you did would you really choose this diety...I dare you to really ask yourself that???? But it requires great courage its not for the faint of heart....be fore warned....

many great movements began as outrage for treatment of humans that is just unexceptable, such as slavery, such as womens liberation, such as the holocaust, a measure by which to see our progress as a humanity, religon being one of great harm because some are in denial about it doesn't change that its harmful and needs to be looked at very closely and changed..IMO there should be a warning on the bible the skull and crossbones, dangerous and deadly if swallowed literally ........

KBA the cookie analogy is like this- it is meant to be said that one must first grow with God - you need tohave a relationship with God, read the bible, fast, pray,and worship him. Later on you get the rewards- the cookies. The cookies could be finacial blessings, and so forth- even divine intervention....although many people think why should we have to pray to get rewards. Well God even rewards the wicked sometimes. Even in the Bible it mentions a few times of that. But after you serve God so well you reward is even greater.

Sheri our entire system is built on this construct you speak of. If you don’t work you don’t eat, reward/punishment. If you don’t educate yourself you are left in ignorance, reward/punishment. If you don’t do nothing you will have nothing, again reward/punishment.
As for constructs I have said before time and space themselves are just constructs to measure our own existence.

Irish

why thanks irtish that is what i have been saying the entire system is based on relgious ideas, it permeates alot of things, whether you are religous or not, it still affects you....you have no choice in some way unless you actively remove ourself from humanity or find ways in your own life to tackle this construct you are still experinceing it to some degree, i after a few years was able to go on a commision basis in a hourly run work enviorment, i am the first to have done that in a franchise run system..., it is great progress for all the other girls hope...., i was able to do it because i had nothing to lose, i didn't need to work , i chose to, so i chose to pave a way for the rest of us...this construct gets you because you think you need it, it plays on that.....Just like you don't need to punsih and hit your kids to get them to tow the mark, if you are wanting respect give it , i know it sounds so simple and really it is.....

Lest we not forget that religion threatens to punish you for doing nothing. In life, you recieve nothing for doing nothing. You do not recieve extra punishment on top. You get what you earn in most cases. But with religion, it's a simple task, an immense reward, and dire consequences should you fail to comply. It makes no sense, but religion is not supposed to make sense, it's supposed to harvest followers.

Supra since you are the Mayor of La la Land, you may know the answer to this question: What happens at the end of your life if you have not reached your full godhood? Do you just *POOF* cease to exist as if you were never here with the memory of you slowly fading from everyone's mind, is it like "Groundhog Day" and you just get to start over, or is your soul recycled into another body to see if you get it right this time? What happens?

By the way, I did have a choice, believe or don't believe, I chose believe. I have an above-average IQ, so the choice was not that difficult: either a) choose not to believe and live a senseless life making up stories about how I'm a god to try to reassure myself or choose to believe and have a personal relationship with the Creator. It was not that hard.

Is the choice that simple though?

It is not just a matter of believe or not believe. You must also decide What to believe.

I quite like Sherris idea that we can all rise above ourselves etc. Do I believe it? Not really... Seems a nice Idea but to esoteric for myself. I personally don't choose to believe or disbelieve... I prefer to take bits here and bits there and make up a little of my own, throw it together and then consider what is left over.

The following is from a response to one of Sympa Sheri's comments on child rearing. It also illustrates the analogy I see between god's parenting of us, and that of adults and their children. Apologies to those who read it before.

Just to respond to Sympas' ideas on unconditional love. No, god's love IS conditional. Personally i don't think there is any other kind of love. If it wasn't conditional in some form or other it would not be love. Love is both part of the biological imperative and the social constructs we see around us. We learn to love beings with cute big eyes(in fact babies are born with such eyes through evolution or creation to help ensure that they are loved or nurtured.) Sure, you might train yourself to "love" unconditionally, but it would be no more real than training yourself to love onion flavoured icecream, when you really craved chocolate. I also disagree with one of sympas related comments on children and how the quickest way for them to become responsible is to let them make decisions. Evidence throughout my life has indicated the only way to make humans responsible, is to subdue the ego through discipline. This has to be outside discipline via parents and society first as self -discipline cannot develop until the person has experienced the dymamics of imposed discipline.
Here are two true stories of love and discipline. As a teenager I went through a much milder form of rebellion than most (I had a lot more freedoms than modern children) However, i took up smoking at the age of 5, and then again in my teens (probably emulating my dad who did manage to give up smoking as we grew older) My parents would not let me smoke at home and offered a very simple rationale. "You are the oldest of our children.If you smoke it will encourage the others. You know our rules. If you can't live by them you may leave home. We won't love you any the less and will still support you as much as we can" (Yes i know, people are not always totally logical, or the best role models, but todays lesson is about love) Needless to say, being no-ones fool and very aware of the benefits of home life, i did not smoke at home (Giving up smoking, nearly 10 years later was the hardest thing i have ever done and was only accomplished with the direct intervention of an angel who took away the nicotine addiction) My parents would have"punished" me for breaking their rules, but really the choice was mine and the consequences fit the perceived purpose of the rule. Even as a teenager i could see the logic and fairness of this. In fact i could have chosen one life over another.The choice was mine

In the second case my sister had a child who was fascinated by fire. He would keep going up to our fire place and trying to touch it. My sister refused to discipline him, outside of saying no, without any consequence. Eventually, the inevitable happened. The little tacker tripped forward, put his out stretched hands on the glass front of the fire, and now never has to worry about fingerprint ID's. from that time on the child never went near a fire, but it was a hard lesson. I am not sure why my sister did not discipline him, whether it was an ideological viewpoint, or she did not like to smack him ,or if like many she was afraid of society's judgement. Anyway, her failure, to discipline led the child to suffer a much greater consequence than was necessary.
There is a connection here also with how god loves us, and why he disciplines us when we break his rules. My parents would physically discipline us, but always calmly and rationally, after discussing the rules broken and the possible consequences, And always expaining that it was our behaviour which was unacceptable and not us as people. Thus, i have no problem seeing a god who loves us dearly, but has set out rules, explained the consequences of breaking them, and punishes our behaviour when we break them.

Ar, i too was once as you, iwas more overwhelmed with where to possibly begin trying to be the difference and a freind said why not be overwhelmed with possiblity, that changed everything for me, I don't know who told me to find the value in everything to look for the perfection and to know that one person can make a differnce but it has been the best tools for being a human and they work and I'm older i have lived long enough to see tha t a smile can change a life and tha tyou don't have to leave the house to change the world your life is full of oppourtunity... its overwhelming.....AR you already are the difference my friend you have lived your life understanding what it means to be the difference, you are gathering your strengths cultivating wisdom life is a great canvas for you and i anticipate you will be dong quite wonderous things with it, your light shines bright my friend, now get better and get back to us....


son, I live NOW, who cares how i die or when i die and what ocmes after I die,or who remebers me when i die ... Now is what is important, i need to be here new, every moment validates the me i have created, but i do not dwell on expecting to mean something or needing to mean something, i have outgrown this ...my life is a gift and I honor it by uisng it to be a benefit for myself and all that i come into contact with and i have seen the fruits of my labour and am inspired to be more than i can dream of set my visions higher and higher.........My life is to live, but we all are at the awareness that is best for us or we wouldn't be on the path we are on.......I have so many mountains to climb and very little time.....no time for what should of or could of been....mY freind Hyper reminded me of the gift of living in the moment .........

I think it comes down to how you were raised. If your parent(s) instilled in you to fear God and his wrath-- and then used that to scare you straight... then most likely you would rebel against it later on, unless of course you fall into the fear trap and pass it unto your kids as was done with you. If your parent(s) instilled in you to love God and his strength-- and then used that to steer you straight... then most likely you would appreciate it later on. For me, I was brought up the second way... I don't belong to any religion and I don't see any of them as truth, to me---- but I still respect what I was taught because it came from loving teachers. Lessons and truths can be learned from religious teachings, but they don't have to be the be-all-end-all of knowledge or the source to focus all your 'questions of life' faith.

both for me arty man, the first tramatized a little girl the second way after i was removed from the enviornet saved my life, my grandma and grndfahter were not religious at all for the time and they felt the truth is in you and pay attention to that and all will be fine, i was encouraged to explore and I went through my stages beleive me, they whent right with me lol...I feel that the person I am in large part is thanks to my grandparents just loving me and encouraging me and not allowing me to label myself with disempowering beelifs, my grandfather thought the sun rose and set on me and made sure i knew it ..... , will you raise your kids religious arty???/ most of the kids not raised religious have been the bridges you remind me alot of me arty.... make freinds with anyone give everyone a chance who cares if htey have one eye or are homeless, did you drag home alotf homeless i did.. gosh my grandparents were awesome. I do drive my hubby nuts with helping those who are having a hard time, it makes me think of the time my little one who was four or so said when I grow up mommy i think I'll be homeless people are so nice to you, my husband and I said nothing we saw he only was seeing in a limited way, seeing his family as the world. oops......... ...lol

I suppose Sheri if or when I have kids I'll raise them with as much love and knowledge as I know how to give. I won't raise them religious, but I will teach them to respect certain religious beliefs, because I see some as potentially helpful. I guess I just want what most parents want, that my kids know they are loved and are the most important thing to me. If that can be accomplished in a religious setting or any setting, then so be it. Love knows no boundaries, as the saying goes.

thats awonderful foundation to base parenthood on, love knows no boundrys, i find resepcting my kids and self seems to say more than any ruyle book, kids are sponges they literally ape every move and thougjht the parent and siblings make its almost uncanny..and until you witness it unbeleiveable, I learned toelrance bascially at home from my grndparepoarents, all types races gay didn't matter they were welcome and loved at my grandparens....and no religion I think helps , it tends to teach exclusiviity and intolerance of many peoples... i keep relgion out as a teaching tool, but I by example embrace any relgion thats all that is needed....two of my boys have had great intrest in differnt theologys so we explore then I find it intereting too, my middle kid has no interest..are you planning o n kids or jsut chillin arty???a little mozart or ravel???

Exclusion will always lead to resentment. Any parent soon learns this lesson if they haven't learnt it from other aspects of their lives (i.e. at work etc)



If some of the children do not understand the message (rather than don't listen) do you not think that a good parent would try to explain in a way where the message could be understood. Also a good parent will ensure the child's attention.

You are right a good parent will do that, a good parent will also know that he has to deal with his children as individuals because:

There are kids who will learn the lesson in the classroom (Little Juanito, is told not to play with matches because they burn, and so he doesn't play with matches <==sometimes this was me)

There are kids who have to go on the fields trip to the zoo to learn the lesson (Little Juanito, is told not to play with matches because they burn, so he steals a book of matches strikes one and touches it and so now he doesn't play with matches)

And, unfortunately, some kids learn the lesson only after having stepped into the lion's cage and the lion is starting to eat them (poor Little Juanito, he kept playing with matches, and ended up burning his house down and getting himself killed)

A parent can be a great parent and still end up with kids who mess up their lives or get themselves killed.

My parents are among the best parents I know, they have taught us and others how to parent; they are recognized as great parents by everyone who knows them, and yet, one of my brothers didn't learn the lesson until he had gotten kicked out of college, was doing drugs, and had to get married because he got his girlfriend pregnant. Fortunately, he learned the lesson before he got himself killed, but even he will tell you that Mom and Dad did everything right, but he was intent on doing EVERYTHING they taught him not to do.

The responsibility for what this world is and what your life is, is not all God's, quite a bit of it is yours. He is a good parent, but you can still decide you're not going to learn the lesson.

son a kid turns out based on how he/she was parented, certainly kids do things, certainly a parent can't beat themselves up, it serves noone , but to say they did everything right its just the kid...its called denial in the modern world....

My heart goes out to your brohter and I'm glad he is still alive, and it was parenting that contributed... my sister who got murdered was a product of horrendous parenting....you can bet that her upbringing contributed greatly to the choices she made, in the 50/ 60's there were no good parents, they had no idea on the effects of paretning as they do now..

You know the parenting skills of the relgious are strict, fear based and limiting and, the child has no voice most are made to feel stupid.... when a kid is made to feel wrong all the time, has no say is told they are of sin they become defensive ( which is anger, resentment) more often than not it will be turned on themselves some even die from it.....How can a person possibly navigate live
as hard as it is with all the crap in this world being sent into it afraid and with no slef esteem, it won't work.....
kids that are afraid are afraid to say no for 'fear of not fitting in, thats another bad idea from relgious constructs.....

Excellent or terrible parenting is not the only influence on the outcome of childhood. Parents only have so much influence. And isn't the most famous complaint about men that they cannot communicate on an intimate level, with loves of any sort? A child can be a nightmare adult in the making because that's the way their chemistry insists they should be or because the world outside the cosy or jagged edged nest directs them that way. Parents are progenators, not programmers.

As for God...oh please. God is way too easy an explanation for...everything. If 'Christian religion references the father son relationship as the model for their deity' (doesn't every religion) then they're missing the other essential ingredient in humanity...the females. Does the domination and application of religion come down to physical power? To our invented hell with our invented gods and the grandious dumbos who preach it.

Supra, first of all I didn't say they did everything right (they are human and therefore imperfect) my brother who rebelled is the one who says they did everything right (again they are not perfect so I'm positive they didn't). I really hope, for your sake and the sake of your kids that none of them decide they are just going to go do things they know to be wrong, but it happens. Failing to believe that kids can decide to throw away everything you taught them and go their own way...that is denial!

I really beg to differ, there were mostly good parents in the 50's and 60's.



Fortunately, I know that your opinion here is INCREDIBLY biased and intolerant, so all I can tell you is that you need to truly practice some of that acceptance and tolerance you speak of so much and notice that most of what you believe about religious people is based purely on your experience. Supra, I am sorry your parents hurt you so much, it is obvious that the damage they did to you is incredibly deep. I hope someday you will be able to face the fact that your parents did what they did because they personally DECIDED to do things that way, not because they were simple representatives of what Christianity is and what it does to people.

Son to possibly infer in any way that being brought up in fear or conditional love is 'good' for the kid""" is insanity IMO I love the intolerance twist too lol, I don't even have to ask how you define tolerance, its shunning gays , punishing kids, preaching dogma and calling it love calling the self unworthy aand sinful then possibly suggesting this is love and what god has told you is his message contrary to all the observable evidence otherwise son is 'right ' everyone else is wrong this is the oldest song playing my friend.....Okay son ..What you have here is disagreement son good old fashined disagreement ,
G ive me a break , I don't agree, Its that simple, in tthe appropriate forum in a l resepctful manner .... , i don't agree that a child should ever be be harned by the very parents that are raising them and calling this love and what concerns me is you are advocating the opposite that a kid dererves to be punished I've read all your psots i have a good idea on your bleifs...... i am giving you info in the end you decide if it maters too you???You are PRETENDING religon is all its all roses and butterflys , hmm who is teaching intolerance son?????

good for your brother daring to rebel its unfortuante he had to take some hard knocks based on ignorant parenting , esepcially the young preganacy if only parents would educate their kids this could be avioded, but few in a construct of fear embrace their sexuality most are ashamed of it and thats what they teach and it seems your brothers family is ashamed of him again who is teaching intolerance ???

Actually I pointed out that you claim to be tolerant but your very attitude towards Christianity and religion shows that you are simply lying. YOU may even be lying to yourself. But don't feel bad about it, all liberals claim to be tolerant and accepting of all, and they seem to be until you tell them to mind their own business or you bring up Christianity, then all pretense of tolerance is tossed right out.

No, it goes beyond not agreeing, Supra, and you will really not advance in your supposed self-development until you can see that for yourself. If it was simple disagreement you would not be using words and phrases intended to denigrate others' beliefs. Saying stuff like "the big guy in the sky" is showing disrespect for someone else's beliefs, which is not very tolerant at all. If you can't see how that is disrespectful, or why being disrespectful is intolerant, then you are far from the ascended being you consider yourself to be.


Ignorant parenting? So, encouraging kids to have sex when they are not ready for all the consequences is good parenting? Supra, I hope your kids don't end up so messed up that they will be unable to function in civilized society. Sex is more than just a physical experience, it has psychological and physiological implications beyond the unexpected pregnancy, and the idea that you may be encouraging your preteen kids to go ahead and try it out is truly scary. What will you do if your uncontrolled, sex crazed school-aged kid rapes some girl because he knows sex isn'tbad and he just wanted to show her? Yeah, that's really good parenting....

you are defining tolerant as agreement,

Son ascended being lol that is your label for me not mine, i'm just a human being human lol please no need for accolades, i don't do the superiority contructs , we are equal...

Actaully we are alot of alike, very passionate one about what he beleives the other about being the best she can being a benefit where she can growing and learning as much as she can.. I'm actaully not one who thinks religion should be banned i think it should be reevaluated and that which has not worked outgrown......Fear doesn't work it doent encourage you to love it encourages hate and at any level it doesnt' benefit humanity...hatred we can see that too..soory son it is what it is.......

now I'm asking you based on your parenting of what 14 years is it that you can define what makes a good parent?? based on many of your psts i 'd say you know what a parent is defined by dogma and truthfully many would define it as great parenting as long as you never look to close, deny alot ........i think you seem to care for your kids are proud of them beyond that i can't truthfully stand in judgement of your parenting I know the jpurney and walk beside you.. you show who the intolerant is son , so I'll leave that be... .... i tell you wht i extend a invite to you son to come spend a day with me observe my aprenting then if you don't leave richer for it fair enough we will discuss it..... What makes a good parent is not having kids that follow the rules we set before them but know how to be a benefit to the whole to know in any situation what is best based on their natuarl inherent conscience it requires a trust that few have, those that are fear based woudl have a very dificult time with no rules again i totally appreciate that ...


.....I have 23 years, 13 years and 9 years old, all boys and i can't tell you i don't know all there is to know, I am learnign daily..My kids decide how i'm parenting by their feedback and discussons, its a comprehensive proactive parenting that requires time and committment and willingness to grow it may not be for you many would prefer the reward punishment system in spite the fact its failed .. the world is changing we arent' parenting that way anymore .. , we have set a standard that is a team effort, So far so good, i too am amazed at how well the innovative newer parenting is going myself many are using the non violent approach to great advantage, its so simple really a kid raised in love becomes a adult who is loving , its not rocket sceince, it sems you have had no parenting classes based on many of your posts is that correct??? i feel the behavioral sceinces are much more insightful than a dogma written by fearfull people who had little access to much of anything and , we can see very clearly se the affects of fear parenting... it simply dosen't work.....

t is very common for fearful people to see honoring your sexuality as bad wrong and dysfunctional, you just don't understnad the sexual nature or you wouldn't say what you posted , its just ignorance as taught by relgion so I'll let it be.....


son i feel the diety is made up , ididn't say you did...why woudl my truth offend you??hmmm taht doesn't make sense????? alot of hostility son...not good for you.....

son we have anything but a civilized society or haven't you noticed.....Religon is not the answer my freind, its the problem....

Again, you are answering without really reading, this is what I said in the post you are responding to: "No, it goes beyond not agreeing, Supra, and you will really not advance in your supposed self-development until you can see that for yourself. If it was simple disagreement you would not be using words and phrases intended to denigrate others' beliefs."

Interesting, so you are being a better person growing and learning, and I'm just one who is passionate about what I believe.

Again, here is another example about how you are being intolerant... oh you claim to be tolerant but, then turn around and call people who do not agree with you people who are controlled by fear and who hate.

Supra, your parents mistreated you because they decided to be that way, they did not mistreat you because they were religious.

If you truly want to grow you need to get past this fear and hatred of religion (specifically Christianity)


You keep disregarding what I say about how I have learned to be a parent. I know you did not have good parenting examples from your parents, I don't know if you paid attention to any other parents than your grandparents, but I have. I have learned good parenting from my parents who taught me how to be a good leader, a good citizen, a good friend, a good husband, and a good father. I have also learned by observing other parents, both those who were obviously bad parents (from whom I learned what NOT to do), and parents who were obviously good parents. Additionally, my wife and I have attended training, read books and spoken to different experts.

"Natural, inherent conscience?" Supra, children have parents so that they will be taught, not just how to survive, but how to know right from wrong. I'm sure if I spent a day or even several with you and your kids what I would see is that whether you acknowledge it or not, you are teaching them some right and wrong.


Does it make you feel better to think that spiritual people are all basically fearful people? Because as I have tried to explain to you over and over, Christians do not live in fear, Christians have had their sins forgiven and KNOW they will stand with God, there is NO fear for our personal situation. The only fear we have is for those who have hardened their hearts to God's call, and who are stubbornly and resolutely marching to eternal death fooling themselves into believing they are walking into the only way to peace.

Okey Dokies...

Getting back to why this thread was started and the relationship between god and humanity in the Christian religion. (No offence, Supra and Iams, but you're both in danger of getting a bit wound up with each others belief. Accept it and move on.)

I don't see god creating 'his children' out of loneliness - god had the angels and whatever other companion god wished to create. IMO god was missing something, god realised there was still more to learn and wanted something to teach that. So god creates a being that won't necessarily believe, won't necessarily think god is all-powerful and all-knowing and will set out to take the journey themselves, without being directed.

I don't see the relationship between god and humanity (in the Christian mythos) as being father-son, but rather master-apprentice, where the master of the craft wisely teaches the basics but leaves the apprentice to find their own inspiration and path to mastery. In doing this the apprentice teaches the master.

That's my opinion and is now open to being shot down in flames...

Everybody lives in fear...a man without fear is a man with no hope. Every human fears the day of their death.

Those who turn their hearts to God's call do it because that is what they will. They wish to have their fate in their own hands rather then in a god's. Death is a milder fate then tyranny. Who is to say one man gets to choose the fate of many? Why should one man's opinions and perspectives be forced on to all? Does having unlimited power and knowledge make a man righteous? Does the creator have the right to rule and kill his creations.

I believe in equality and freedom in all things. The perspectives and opinions of man, god, and animal are all equal.

son I talk on the things that I invest myself into towards the world i wish to see, you talk about your beifs, son the only intolerance is in your perspective my friend...I feel it is important to me to be the best i can be, i can only go off of your psots, i am curious to know how you use your life to be the differnece for humaninity ....feel free to sahre...


son , it is obvious you are having a hard time embracing our differences and diversity....As I have said many times I know extraordinary people who call themselves relgious, i call them dear freinds , their relgion inspires them...

i may be called opinionated and vocal and passionate and a strong women but intolerant , i don't think so .......


i have no hatred of relgion or christianity , i simply note that it promotes that, therefore not a core you would want to use for child rearing if you are wanting peaceful kids.. , it is you that would benfit from the advice you are giving me, i have been seeking to connect with you for months now it is you who can't.....I have it on good authority you are a very lovely person and you know what i beleive that...Son because you don't see religon as harmful doesn't mean it isn't , Do you tell you kids i know that alcohol is harmfiul to the organism but go ahead and drink it anyways , its difernet for you..come on. one must be able to discern value from harm or should especially when raising kids........Religon is harmful on many levels its obvious you had never looked at it n that vein, growing pangs i'd call it........


Many find ways to deal with the harm of relgion, They publically state they don't agree with many aspects, one who denys pretends or downplays or flat out denys the observable. is not common once one has self realized.....


again your understanding on teaching is different than mine, no son i don't think i am teaching my kids somethign they don't already know, tthat I'm pouring in knowledge, i observe that I am reminding them of who they really are that there isn't anything they don't know they simply have to remember they know it....i would teach my child and do, that they are peaceful and unconditonal loving beings and come from that as much as possible, they come to me in the utmost resepct and value my opinons as valuable and meritous because they have been treated in this manner....If my child makes a choice that doens't choose an outcome that produces the highest good for all concerned they are aware of it on their own and as a family we discuss it and come up with solutions that will better work for the future, we openly discuss thier journey every step of it , truth is celebrated in our home, our children would never be punished for anything , they have a conscience that lets them know when they have stepped out of line with their inner self, no son my kids let me know what they are demonstrating as far as what works and what won't..Its a great joy to parent and as you are gathering i love it and love the learning and growing and allowing for new truth and love the oppourtunity to change and be bettter , my kids are the same way..... i really would love to have you spend a day with us, if you are ever in California look me up.....i would actaully love your insight, you just don't know me yet /son, but in time you may be open to a freindship based in differences.......

When you are reminded that you are peace and love and valuable and capable and an inspiration and integral to the whole that they matter and contribute and that make your choices from this awarenmess you have kids that do just that.....


I am a guide son not the all knowing i am also very adept at knowing the stages of development and what responsibility is appropraite for the age, i feel its been very helpful to have had a abusive childhood, I lerned alot many mistakes have been avoided because of the early training..so I know what doesn't work,,When I tell you my hubby and i are proactive thats exactly what i mean.its our lifes work ..and my responsibility to put men into this world that will benefit the whole men that are loving and peaceful and care for the enviorment and others ...make no mistake i take my gift of parenting very seriously..

Love (unconditional) is really just life,peace, knowing understanding compassion , kindness all outgrowths of love that just flourish naturally when one removes the llimitations that we place on allowing these things to flow , usually its nothing more than ignorance or just simply not knowing, when we know better we do better.......i am touched by life by all that it brings, often it is simply a matter of jumping over our own shadows to reach out in love , with cariing gestures that radiate from the heart and bring harmony to the world....this is the example I strive to set for my boys......