Son why not share we know what the bible says we want to know what you think we are intersted in you son....??????
[/quote]

Halleluja...
Well said...thumps up! I could not have said it better...

isis i like your style too and its valuable to try out..... you have the heart of a diest that is a compliment in case you are wondering.....i see no issue ever with one who spreads unconditional love , we can use all we can get..welcome to UM.....

Actually, I am very fortunate. My father taught us early on the importance of the pursuit of knowledge. He had a large library and it was all available to us, he also bought us the Encyclopedia Britannica and whenever we asked him how something worked or what something was, he would refer us to the encyclopedia, and then we would have to tell him what we learned. Also, I have been fortunate to make friends with experts in different fields, including theology and sociology. So, when I want to determine the truth of something I use all of these resources: I pray and ask God to provide me with the wisdom to understand what I will learn, then I conduct my own research, I ask the experts I know, I find out how they came to those conclusions and I also try to find out what the opposing view might be and as much as I can about how people have come to that view. I think that is a very good way to search for the truth.

I have repeatedly shared what I believe Supra, I give my opinion constantly, but since I know the value of opinions I also like to present the source of my opinions. When I have given my opinion alone, there are usually several people who seem to jump in and, truthfully point out that it is my unsubstantiated opinion, so, I think it's a time saver to just present my sources initially.

So waht other sources of jesus life ahve you explored, i have researched alot myself so sit e your sources and hhow is it out of all the sources you have come tot he conclusioin that hteh bile is accurate , in site of the historians that we ahve on UM and even lay peopel who all say teh same thing and i too know theologists and i have a client aht is a Catholic priest and noone says the bbile is absoulute ?????



Thats what i am asking about...your intellelgence isn't in doubt here its have you gathered enough data to make an informed decsion?????? you have a opinion that is deeply theological in its leanings one who may have not considered other sources.......thats not an opinon thats the need to be right i want to be clear we are on the same page with this.....

So it isnt the religious beliefs of the fundies that get them all worked up about stem cell research? Its human nature to evolve and advance, the biggest obstacle to this research is the religious objections these groups have to us "playing God".

Its the religious that attack the womean's right to choose to have an abortion, not human nature. I'm sure it was religious beliefs that inspire snipers to take out doctors at these clinics. They have no right to tell a girl who is pregnant with her father's or a rapists child that she must have the child, but they do.

Gay marriage, its not human nature to oppose two happy people from getting married its the frikkin Bible. It also just happens to be conservative governments that use gay marriage as an election issue, knowing the religious are one of their top support bases. And as you should be aware of in Canada the conservative government tried to reopen the debate on legality of gay marriage, it was shot down on the quickness. Its not human nature inspiring them to question the legal bond of two people, its their religious supporters.

You just get right into the same rut when you hear someone volley accusations against religion and spit out the same 'human nature' excuse but I dont see human nature at work when the religious object to stem cell research, abortion and gay marriage, I see passages from the Bible on picket signs, the hysteria of us playing God and homosexuality being called a sin. Sure people attempt to use the excuse that homosexuality isnt natural, against human nature, but I'll be there too to take a hatchet to their masked religious objections.

I have read several books (Holy Blood, Holy Grail comes to mind) many articles, I even once spoke to a Catholic Bishop who said he had proof that the Vatican contained information proving Jesus was never crucified. I also know a guy who used to be a pastor before he decided there was no God. I stopped only because nothing of what I read or heard had any impact on what I knew, or on the personal relationship I have with God through Christ.

Why do I believe the Bible is accurate? Because I have spoken to people who have dedicated their lives to learning and teaching the Bible and because I read different translations, use Bible dictionaries, Strong's Concordance, the incredible library my pastor has and also his brain.

Now as to the data gathered, how about an actual relationship with Him? You really can't beat that.

Oh dear, I'm lost again with my english: What is a DIEST?
And thanks for welcoming me!
I might not always say something but I'm watching and shaking my head many times in disbelieve, how people who claim to be here to save other, just push them further away.
I believe to teach by example, and I tell what I believe but it is up to the induvidual to accept or not. This does not mean they go to hell if they don't believe me.
It is not nesseccary to know a lot to find GOD, just to LOVE a lot! What do you think?

So that's what happened to Mako.

The stupidity of comments on this board are sometimes beyond belief.

And who is Mako? Osiris? I was also wondering were he was, because I failt to locate him ...hi...hi...

I like bernadettes comment. Is that what you would call it? Or is it a verb...?

hello

you'll get a real kick out of Mako. Sharply critical of Christianity, but with an excellent sense of humor. He also happens to be a deist.

By the by, a deist is a person who believes in a creator, but without all the trappings of dogma. I'm sure someone else can give you a more wordy definition but that should suffice as a general introduction.

Hello and thanks for the info. Nice meeting you all in Cyberspace...
Look forward to meet Mako in Cyberspace one day, even if he is not Osiris...But then...HOW KNOWS? Hi...hi...

I would call it a quote. But I think you should call it 'a pearl of wisdom’. It sounds much nicer.

Perl of Wisdom! Yes, I like that! Sounds like something for my mothers daughter...Thanks Bright_grey...!

Admirable, except that the moment something is labeled, it already becomes an "ism" IMO. Still, I guess if I'm anything, it's Deist as well.

BTW Isis - are you Cree by any chance? Only Cree say Hi Hi at the end as far as I know.

When religion loses its credibility

Galileo was persecuted for revealing what we now know to be the truth regarding Earth’s place in our solar system. Today, the issue is homosexuality, and the persecution is not of one man but of millions. Will Christian leaders once again be on the wrong side of history?

By Oliver "Buzz" Thomas

What if Christian leaders are wrong about homosexuality? I suppose, much as a newspaper maintains its credibility by setting the record straight, church leaders would need to do the same:

Correction: Despite what you might have read, heard or been taught throughout your churchgoing life, homosexuality is, in fact, determined at birth and is not to be condemned by God's followers.

Based on a few recent headlines, we won't be seeing that admission anytime soon.

(Illustration by Adrienne Lewis, USA TODAY)

Last week, U.S. Roman Catholic bishops took the position that homosexual attractions are "disordered" and that gays should live closeted lives of chastity. At the same time, North Carolina's Baptist State Convention was preparing to investigate churches that are too gay-friendly. Even the more liberal Presbyterian Church (USA) had been planning to put a minister on trial for conducting a marriage ceremony for two women before the charges were dismissed on a technicality. All this brings me back to the question: What if we're wrong?

Religion's only real commodity, after all, is its moral authority. Lose that, and we lose our credibility. Lose credibility, and we might as well close up shop.

It's happened to Christianity before, most famously when we dug in our heels over Galileo's challenge to the biblical view that the Earth, rather than the sun, was at the center of our solar system. You know the story. Galileo was persecuted for what turned out to be incontrovertibly true. For many, especially in the scientific community, Christianity never recovered.

This time, Christianity is in danger of squandering its moral authority by continuing its pattern of discrimination against gays and lesbians in the face of mounting scientific evidence that sexual orientation has little or nothing to do with choice. To the contrary, whether sexual orientation arises as a result of the mother's hormones or the child's brain structure or DNA, it is almost certainly an accident of birth. The point is this: Without choice, there can be no moral culpability.

Answer in Scriptures

So, why are so many church leaders (not to mention Orthodox Jewish and Muslim leaders) persisting in their view that homosexuality is wrong despite a growing stream of scientific evidence that is likely to become a torrent in the coming years? The answer is found in Leviticus 18. "You shall not lie with a man as with a woman; it is an abomination."

As a former "the Bible says it, I believe it, that settles it" kind of guy, I am sympathetic with any Christian who accepts the Bible at face value. But here's the catch. Leviticus is filled with laws imposing the death penalty for everything from eating catfish to sassing your parents. If you accept one as the absolute, unequivocal word of God, you must accept them all.

For many of gay America's loudest critics, the results are unthinkable. First, no more football. At least not without gloves. Handling a pig skin is an abomination. Second, no more Saturday games even if you can get a new ball. Violating the Sabbath is a capital offense according to Leviticus. For the over-40 crowd, approaching the altar of God with a defect in your sight is taboo, but you'll have plenty of company because those menstruating or with disabilities are also barred.

The truth is that mainstream religion has moved beyond animal sacrifice, slavery and the host of primitive rituals described in Leviticus centuries ago. Selectively hanging onto these ancient proscriptions for gays and lesbians exclusively is unfair according to anybody's standard of ethics. We lawyers call it "selective enforcement," and in civil affairs it's illegal.

A better reading of Scripture starts with the book of Genesis and the grand pronouncement about the world God created and all those who dwelled in it. "And, the Lord saw that it was good." If God created us and if everything he created is good, how can a gay person be guilty of being anything more than what God created him or her to be?

Turning to the New Testament, the writings of the Apostle Paul at first lend credence to the notion that homosexuality is a sin, until you consider that Paul most likely is referring to the Roman practice of pederasty, a form of pedophilia common in the ancient world. Successful older men often took boys into their homes as concubines, lovers or sexual slaves. Today, such sexual exploitation of minors is no longer tolerated. The point is that the sort of long-term, committed, same-sex relationships that are being debated today are not addressed in the New Testament. It distorts the biblical witness to apply verses written in one historical context (i.e. sexual exploitation of children) to contemporary situations between two monogamous partners of the same sex. Sexual promiscuity is condemned by the Bible whether it's between gays or straights. Sexual fidelity is not.

What would Jesus do?

For those who have lingering doubts, dust off your Bibles and take a few hours to reacquaint yourself with the teachings of Jesus. You won't find a single reference to homosexuality. There are teachings on money, lust, revenge, divorce, fasting and a thousand other subjects, but there is nothing on homosexuality. Strange, don't you think, if being gay were such a moral threat?

On the other hand, Jesus spent a lot of time talking about how we should treat others. First, he made clear it is not our role to judge. It is God's. ("Judge not lest you be judged." Matthew 7:1) And, second, he commanded us to love other people as we love ourselves.

So, I ask you. Would you want to be discriminated against? Would you want to lose your job, housing or benefits because of something over which you had no control? Better yet, would you like it if society told you that you couldn't visit your lifelong partner in the hospital or file a claim on his behalf if he were murdered?

The suffering that gay and lesbian people have endured at the hands of religion is incalculable, but they can look expectantly to the future for vindication. Scientific facts, after all, are a stubborn thing. Even our religious beliefs must finally yield to them as the church in its battle with Galileo ultimately realized. But for religion, the future might be ominous. Watching the growing conflict between medical science and religion over homosexuality is like watching a train wreck from a distance. You can see it coming for miles and sense the inevitable conclusion, but you're powerless to stop it. The more church leaders dig in their heels, the worse it's likely to be.

Oliver "Buzz" Thomas is a Baptist minister and author of an upcoming book, 10 Things Your Minister Wants to Tell You (But Can't Because He Needs the Job).

http://blogs.usatoday.com/oped/2006/11/when_religion_l.html

son, so you are saying you have a personal relationship with 'christ and he told you that the bible is infallable and the word of 'god'
son i beleive you to be a honest man who means well but I donot believe that your relationship includes pimping the bible....You are starting to sound like benny Hinn and those guys, i most likely am misunderstanding you correct????/


God can be called many things experienced many ways but one thing that is for sure this experince would not include telling others to read the bible, that there was some special way to get to god now adays thats called a fraud and dismissed as absurd some years back before humans knew better they may of beleived that but those days are gone.....

son every master that walked and the ones that are walking now say , we are all one, you simply have to notice..that heaven is the awareness of that unity....This sounds plausable and you just know it, wisdom has a ring to it and it doesn't include fear or threats or conditons......
Gone are the days when humanity was so ignorant and limited in communications and was too dumb to know that 'god wasn't this monster and there would be no way that in the deepest part of your heart lives a god that you describe and worship, and think others should too and call this love, don'tt be surprised if many pass on your offer, if you said this 'god' loves all and you need be nothing or do anything or show up on some certain path and this god loved you and beleived in you even when you didn't and that no one godself was better than another god self , i'd say okay son maybe is a religious cat but his message is one of love and inspiration and he lives to spread this love to give those back to themselves that have forgotten how beloved and how incredible they are and how no matter what in gods eyes they are loved....they need do nothing but remeber that...then I would say this is a master and pay attention......

No I'm not Cree, I just havend figued out yet how to attach a smiley-face that laughs...

These issues are not solely the domain of the religious, and it just shows the bias of the writer/speaker when they are singled out as such. There are many non-Christians also against stem-cell research, abortion and homosexuality So I beg to differ, I DO see human nature when people object to these issues. Some of them just happen to hide behind a religious dogma to perpetuate these discriminations.

Humans are incapable of communicating direct experience, so we develop concepts to convey our experiences to others. These concepts, labels, and opinions are all empty, but as you can see in this conversation and the myriad like it, some folks are very attached to their opinions and ideas. Others are attached to other people's opinions.

If I may be so bold to interject an opinion to that line of thought PA. (i.e. these issues are not the sole domain of the religious. ) I don't know that anyone here has made the blanket statement that they are. Rather, given the context of discussions on this specifically titled forum , it may be said that topics are relegated to the domain of the religious and spiritual, in keeping with the theme that invites such conversations to this particular forum.

Prejudice, bigotry, intolerance, run the gamut of human society. Whether it be secular or the non-secular. So, for the sake of argument, I would say the defense that this or that isn't the exclusive "fault" or domain of religion, while of course accurate, would apply in the context of attentions to subjects brought forth for consideration and discussion in this particular forum. Certainly there are other forums on board wherein people could discuss such matters as bias or prohibitive attitudes toward stem cell research, etc... and in a non-religious context.

Just thought I'd toss that into this discussion. Because it seems to be a red herring to continually defer the subject matter to that disclaimer when it's patently obvious to those that are already capable of addressing such topics intelligently in this specific forum.

A very interesting article. One I hope is true at least in regards to the demise of organized religion, which is unfortunately the system which keeps blemishing the name of Christ and Christians.

I, as many others who call themselves Christian-- not because they belong to a particular church or denomination, but because of the personal spiritual relationship with God through Christ-- do not consider homosexuality an abomination, nothing so important, simply another of the many sins that man is wont to commit, no better or worse than lying, cursing, adultery, polygamy, drunkenness, etc. but a sin nonetheless, something which leads man away from complete unity with Christ, and homosexuals no better or no worse than the rest of us all who also bear a sin or sins we struggle with constantly.

So, to your understanding of homosexuality, it's something "we" struggle with constantly!? Not having sexual desires for the same sex is something that is a struggle not to give in to!? That temptation, like unto all those other "sins" you mentioned, is ever tempting for most people!? Here's a thought. How about if homosexuality is just as natural a feeling as that which you have being a heterosexual!? How about what made you straight is the same as what makes others gay. And how about, if god made all things he also made homosexuals!?

And how about, since so many that apply religious principles that are an excuse to apply a personal measure of intolerance,discrimination, bias and ignorance toward the subject and as such are prejudice toward members of the gay community, the religious read further than that passage in Leviticus 18:22, and instead consider the romantic piece sometimes included to this day in weddings, in the book of Ruth? That is clearly a passage between two women (lesbians). And how about the book of Samuel? Many passages may be translated as quite sexy and are verses relating to two men (gays) ?!


It never ceases to amaze me that intolerance and bigotry is excused by the faithful as being commanded by text that is considered holy. When , if something were indeed truly holy it wouldn't advocate hate and intolerance and excusing how god made people to be all that they are and, if genesis is to be given any credibility at all by the faithful, in the image and likeness of that same god. So, if gays are sinful and homosexuality a sin, take it up with god. Pray and tell him that in the mortal opinion of the faithful god made an error when he made gays to feel attracted to the same sex as he made straights to feel attracted to the opposite.

Personally, if I were a believer, I'd give more credit to something I thought enough of as a higher power and responsible for everything that exists, than to imagine it made humans the wrong way, when it made gays as they are! Especially when it comes to love between consenting adults, gay or straight. Or in those pubescent feelings children feel when they're coming into that "god" given sense of sensuality. Given there are so many gays populating the earth, I imagine if believers believe something created them to be so,they would respect that creator power first. Because people are born straight, gay and bisexual. And this includes the animal kingdom having it's gay population as well. So unless someone dares to imagine Giraffes "sin".....

And if god hasn't gotten a clue he screwed up yet, considering intolerant religious people claim homosexuality is un-natural, maybe the intolerant of the faithful population should get a clue it is they that are screwed up, damning gods created people because they disapprove of how they love each other. There's certainly enough hate in this world already so as to preclude anyone from hating what consenting adults do in the privacy of their own bedrooms.

And the faithful wonder why other people would dare not to believe in the type of god homophobic personalities excuse as the cause for their bias!? There are plenty of bigots on Earth now. It would be insane to worship one that lives in heaven.

Even heterosexual sex is a sin outside of marriage, Goddess, and since God established marriage as a permanent union between a man and a woman, even polygamists are committing sin, just as are adulterers, just as is anyone having sex outside of marriage. Do you understand it is nothing against homosexual sex, it is just another type of sin, nothing more, nothing less.

I must admit I will have to go back and reread both of those books because I have no idea what you are talking about.


Goddes, if you are going to talk about Genesis, then you have to take into account that man was given free will and chose to leave his unity with God. The idea that God made an error is one made if you assume that God is not omniscient. If He is omniscient--which I believe-- then man's choice to disobey is all part of God's plan, and the fact that man chooses to do so many things that separate him from God is part of God's plan too.

Unfortunately, many believers make the mistake of thinking God must have made a mistake forgetting that He is omniscient, so there is no way He can make a mistake. They are either unwilling or incapable of understanding that all of this is God's plan.

As to people being born gay or bisexual, there is no proof. I can believe that some are born with a genetic predisposition to addiction to *spam filter*, just like I believe I was born with a predisposition to alcoholism, since it runs in my family. But since I know this, I chose early in my teens not to drink alcohol beyond just one drink occasionally. The predisposition is still there and if I am not careful I will end up just like my grandfather, but that is not God's fault, it's mine.

I think people who like to say they are not a believer because they can't believe God made a mistake by making them how they are, are simply using a convoluted excuse for not taking responsibility for their actions.


Still making excuses for not taking responsibility for choices by blaming a God they don't believe in.

Link

hamartia, hamartema, hamartano. This word in various forms occurs around 250 times and is the most common way in the New Testament to express the concept of sin. source

Sometimes it is best to look at the orginal meanings of the words chosen by the orginal writers, and not the later meanings chosen by others over thousands of years. It is a Greek word that they chose and used and the Greek meaning is the one that should apply, which I posted a link to.

Ah, so now I see the god you worship. You believe he creates his children so that they can freely choose to come back to him. And if they fail he can freely and rightly choose to damn them for it!? And you believe that, while you may be heterosexual and that is a perfectly natural god given feeling, those that feel they are gay or bisexual are somehow not as naturally predisposed. As if they "choose" to sex the same sex, for all that that visual entails. And consequently, when they choose such a lifestyle they also invite the raving lunatic hatemongers that murder them in all sorts of ways for it!? Free will after all. Free will to choose to love the same sex, while you exercise free will to love the opposite. And there's no proof for gay or bisexuality being natural!? Then tell me, what proof is there that heterosexuality is!? If there is no proof for the sexuality exercised by humanity in the gay and bi community, there is no proof there is for heterosexuality either. And, speaking of the natural/nature. What about gay animals!? Evidence abounds they exist. What of that, in the domain of all created by the eternal creator!? Natural? Un-natural!? Or is that also "free will". (Which is a misnomer actually. Because it is impossible to be given free will if there are consequences applied for exercising free choice.)


So god makes all things and part of his plan is that people may freely choose to sin and fall from god. Because that's his plan to!? And so, in the beginning when god created the heavens and the earth he chose to also create gays so they could choose to be discriminated against and murdered in his name!? Because he had that all planned out from the beginning. And so they could follow that plan he imbued the humans created with free will to fall from his grace and what?! Crawl back into it!? After realizing all they did was a sin? But that sin is his plan to and also his creation. All things come from god, yes!? Even the devil? Even the damnation and pit, mentioned as that eternal abode for those that fail to come back or meet gods plan to fall and return!? So god then plans for free will and for damnation of his children. That he damned to suffer from birth for the transgression or disobedience of the first of their kind in the garden, Adam and Eve. So that every subsequent generation would be born into sin.And women, because of Eve daring to eat from the tree of knowledge. A tree put there in that garden by god and then forbidden. A snake, the devil, that most beautiful angel, was permitted to gain access into paradise by god, because that was his plan to. To allow his devil into his paradise. Because Eve , disobeying his command, was this omniscient beings plan. Which he knew would damn, because he made it so, all of the generations of humanity to come after. Born from the womb, but who's souls originated from his grace. To be born into the sin and the plan of falling away from that, in the flesh.

I understand religious intolerance takes no responsibility for choosing to follow gods plan and live the sin of a intolerance and hate. To excuse bigotry as that free will they apply, so as to look at others of gods creation and see them as damned, or fallen from that gods grace. Because that god planned it all out. He planned the murder of countless numbers of people, at the hands of his other creations, because they chose to love those he said were an abomination. But yet their doing exactly what he planned for them to do, by imbuing them with free will and because all of it is in keeping with exactly how he planned it. So that all that gays and bi's suffer at the hands of intolerant vicious people, is his plan to. Perhaps he figures if they suffer enough they'll exercise their free will to lie about how god made them to feel sexually, and fake it so they can live this life unabused. And, if I may say, if one equates homosexuality with the same "sin" as other immoral acts like stealing, murder, alcoholism etc... then they're actually saying they have to steel themselves in a constant vigil not to fall into sin, not to choose to sin, in that way. So , in effect what one is saying when they say one has to keep constant check not to fall into the sin of homosexuality, that they feel a compulsion to exercise homosexual acts. Just like stealing is a compulsion, alcoholism is a disease that can be exacerbated by giving into that compulsion, etc... But free will prevents one from sexing another man if they're a man. Or another woman if they're a woman. Just like it's free will to do those things. I see.

Well, I do respect anyone's right to live their life as they see fit because it's they that will experience their choices. However, I do not have to respect any ideology that implies a higher power. A all knowing, ever present, eternal, being has planned out all that is good and all that is evil and being omniscient , can by that definition, never be surprised at all when everything on Earth goes according to plan.

son you have a personal relationship with dogma , one doesn't need intervention to connect to the whole , one is the whole..how ever you want to label that...

It would seem that you are following in the footsteps of the self professed holy men who inspired ideas such as bigatry, intolerance, 'sin' eternal reward, hell, hatred, shunning, killing for beliefs, burning people for beleifs...


Son you really think this would be the big dude in the sky??? 'shrugs' wht about htis fellow seems so holy so worthy of worship??? Fear???

Wouldn't you fall under the lying 'sin' for saying that the bible is infllabele and god told you this through christ....???? I'm asking not insulting.....

Goddess, I can't help that you are CHOOSING to put what I have said an what I believe in the worst light possible. That is YOUR choice and since you have chosen to do so there is nothing I can say which you will not then turn around and make into a hateful and bigoted diatribe, I see no reason to continue providing you with ammunition.

Supra, you keep asking me to provide my opinion, then when I do you become insulting and demeaning. As much as you say, "I'm asking, not insulting..." that is what you are doing. You are insulting because you use the most ridiculous and degrading words to refer to my opinion. If you truly mean not to be insulting, then take the time to choose words that do not demean my beliefs an opinions. Saying stuff like "the big dude in the sky" is INSULTING as much as you may then pretend tolerance and innocence your words betray you.

No sir. I read you perfectly. If you do not like how you come across, please refrain from imparting a communication that paints your god in a light you do not like others to read that way.

Everything is part of gods plan. That is, in essence, what you said. Everything! Because you can not accept that others point and counter point your communication on how you understand your god, it's the readers error. Or they're taking all that you say and holding it to the worst possible light.

I assure you, I did not author the old testament. I did not write down those inspirations that called for god to behave in a manner of a tyrant in heaven, as those books clearly define in all their timely context, that he murders those that do not accept him as the only heavenly father.

Question. If god is all knowing, all powerful and the only one, why kill those that believe in other gods, when there is nothing else they could be believing in but the one!? Regardless of the name by which it is called in their understanding!? How is it that god, the only one, can ever take umbrage because people choose to believe in a god that is said by your god not to be himself? If he is the only one there is to believe in!? If he is the only one, it would stand to reason the only one others could ever hold faith in, is still the only one there is. By any name. But perhaps I misunderstand when god said, "he" is the alpha and the omega. The beginning and that to which all things return. Or perhaps one of his traits, that of omnipresence, is in error.

Thus, a god that is all things and everywhere, isn't all things and everywhere. Perhaps those people in the OT that he ordered assassinated by proxy at the hands of his faithful, were indeed calling on another god. And that god was someplace else. But then, one would have cause to ask, if your god is omnipotent and omniscient, what made that other god(s). And how could "the" god possibly be jealous, clearly a human personality flaw, if his being omnipotent and the creator of all things , had to have created that to!? Or , as you believe in "free will", those slaughtered people chose to believe in another god, by the exercise of that free will. And being lowly humans, far less knowledgeable about all things than an omniscient being, how is it they could be slaughtered for the error of exercising only what they knew to be the god they honored for all things in their life!? If there is only one god, how can a god of any name, be any other but that one and only god!? As it says in John 1:3. God made everything and and without him was not any thing made that was made. So, how is it god revokes his very own inspired 6th commandment and murders/kills, those that praise other gods, if all that is made is made by and of your god!? Free will? What's in a name, Son!? Call it French toast, and worship it as holy, and if one is of good heart in that exercise they are but worshiping the one and only god. Be it called French toast or Yahweh, no!?


And then we have all those inspired recounting's, in context, of rape, advocacy of slavery, infanticide, human sacrifice, and the list goes on. No son, you fail to realize. Between me the unbeliever and you the faithful son, I read what you tell me is your god. I read what the bible, said to be inspired by your god, says. I believe that the crusades were executed (pun fully intended) by "divine" authority and under the auspices of the church. I believe our christian president asks our parchment of equality and freedom be amended to denote preference and bigotry, because he believes his god said it is just and his (gods) will gays not be entitled to equality under law in a land that was allegedly founded on christian principles, which, by this presidents understanding , would preclude citizen equality for gay Americans. I believe, what is written repeatedly in the bible the faith you claim to hold allegiance to, says repeatedly that those inspired words are the infallible, eternal words of that god. He's very clear about that Son. There is no other but the one god. So when the one god orders all those vicious reprisals against all those humans he created, what kind of god does that make him!? Remember? He is a jealous god! So said "he".

I do not see things in the worst possible light. I take your god at his word, and in the light of that it is my understanding he is a tyrant in heaven. Because the bible tells me so.

You're not born a liar, swearing, having sex before marriage, born married to 3 wifes, or drunk. Though, you can be born homosexual. I guess if some ancient scribblings had said it's a sin to be a mentally retarded person to act as they do, that would be sin as well. Or it's yet another flaw in the bibical system of human biology and patterns to be believed by so many to act on discrimination instead of accepting because of the said ancient scribblings.

Well, then again, there is a history of mentally unsound persons and those that suffered epilepsy, being burned at the stake in the ancient times because the church thought they were demon possessed. All exacted under the ordinance of the "word", in those matters and translated by the learned clergy, mind you. So perhaps ordinances against gays, the only class of citizens by which discrimination and inequality continued to be sponsored by law, will change. As did the ignorance that permitted murder of mentally retarded persons and those that suffered epilepsy back in the day.

Funny you mention that.......

Did you know that in 400 AD, the Catholic church prohibited people with epilepsy from entering the priesthood?

And that it was only changed in the late 20th century?

Apparantly, the loving fathers of the church decided that possession by the devil, and epilepsy were on a par with each other.

It's amazing what horrific fate befalls people in the name of superstition, isn't it?! But to only amend that policy in the 20th century, is pathetically ignorant. Then again, think how long it has taken for the church to admit it's wrong on many other matters as well. It was only in the 20th century that the church "apologized" to Galileo for branding him a heretic because he dared say the sun didn't revolve around the Earth. And of course the title of Saint being applied to Joan of Arc, long after she was burned alive, was timely. Given she helped to establish the churches authority with her zeal as a young girl. And because they feared people might respect her for it, because women are the root of evil you know, they burned her as a witch. Sad they didn't realize in doing that that it was the same thing as admitting that witch worked for the church and with it's blessing, before the church decided to strap her to the pyre. And one wonders, in this 21st century, why the church still tolerates pedophiles in it's clergy. I guess that old devil is still hiding behind the vestments on that one. Not quite aware as yet, are they, of his presence as he is continually allowed to rape kids in the guise of the "holy". But now there's this article that says the church must face this horrific assault on innocent has cost the Roman catholic church so much.

Why yes it has. It's cost them their reputation as an institution of the holy. Trusted and beyond reproach.
Instead the complicity to support child rapists and allow them to continue their deviant assaults on the bodies of the innocent parishioners shows them for what they are. A den of deviants that work together so they can keep their authority over mortal minds, at the expense of innocent children. That's one hell of a god they work for! Suffer the little children to come unto me, jesus is claimed to have said. If they did, I wonder if the church could stand what they'd tell him was done to them by those emissaries acting under the mantel of his word!? Suffer the little children indeed. Countless pedophiles certainly did just that. Made children suffer and not nary a one has ever been made to suffer in return. But it's early yet. Dare we forget that one pedophile in clerics robes that was strangled , face to face to his murderer, while in prison. Oh I adore that man to this day. Especially when he was permitted to say to the press, why he did it. He's a lifer, no parole. He did it for the kids that sick deviant raped all those years, without suffering justice. Well, by the name of his god, he certainly suffered justice that day. And he looked it straight in the face while it crushed his windpipe and suffocated the life right out of that evil creature called, "priest". Now known as dead priest. Beautiful! Death cures pedophiles.

It has not been proven that a person can be born homosexual, K. Like I said I believe there may be a genetic predisposition towards that just like there seems to be a genetic predisposition towards alcoholism which in turn makes some more prone than most to the sin of drunkenness. My great grandfather was an alcoholic, my grandfather was an alcoholic, I have two uncles and an aunt who are alcoholic. I believe that I have a genetic predisposition to alcoholism, and like my father have chosen a lifestyle that keeps me from giving in to the predisposition to the sin of drunkenness.

I guess you can imagine anything you want.


People, whether religious or not, whether American or not, always seem to find reasons to discriminate. That so many have used the Bible as a basis for their discriminating behavior is not the fault of the Scriptures, it is just another SIN that man is wont to do.

Blaming the Bible for the way in which people have abused it, makes as much sense as an African American blaming the book "Uncle Tom's Cabin" or even it's author for the way in which that title is used as a negative connotation.

Before we continue this discussion further Son, question: Do you believe the bible to be the word of god?

You have an amazing way of avoiding facing what you choose to discriminate against, to your favor Son. You say you believe Homosexuality is a genetic predisposition. Yet you don't seem to accept that in saying that about that sexual predisposition you are to indicting heterosexuality to the same genetic markers.

Sadly enough discrimination within the bible is a template for many to take that as an example, as an ordinance from god, to apply discrimination. The bible is full of tales of gods ordinance commanding discrimination against others. And even death in the wake of that judgment. So while no book can cause to come into being by itself the evil men perpetuate of their own free will, the bible , as that "word of god" is a factor that has been incorporated into the cause for the application of discrimination upon persons and cultures. If the bible is suppose to be taken, by believers in it, as a guidepost for moral behavior and god's imparting of morality, then it certainly can be said to have been taken as the tool for wielding in it's/his name what is considered as immoral behavior. (such as what was mentioned before. Genocide, rape, slavery, infanticide, etc....) Or perhaps you have chosen to ignore the ordinances set forth in "gods word". Wherein he commands: Thou shalt not suffer a witch/sorceress to live. Meaning, kill them. Or how about Leviticus when "god said" any child that curses his parent(s) must be put to death?! Or Deuteronomy, wherein god commands those that worship "other gods" must be killed!?

And how about gods command to rape the women captured by his chosen people, whom he guided in the war campaign, so that they might bring forth seed from their loins and vanquish the children/seed, of that defeated enemy?! Such as in the attack on Midian, by Moses and his command!? So that when the Israelite army captured the Midianite women they raped them, by gods orders!?

Not to mention accounts wherein god ordered/sanctioned slavery, human sacrifice, etc...


Son, you are free to deny that which is written in the bible all you wish. You are even able, as you have shown, to avoid addressing points you can not face about what is contained in the bible that supports , by gods authority, evil acts. However when you excuse all that exists on the pages from cover to cover as people choosing to abuse the word of god to their own ends, you must consider (or don't but it's still there in black, white and sometimes red), that the abuse began first as what was inspired by god to be written down as the eternal, unchanging, inerrant "word of god". Ergo, the abuse you speak of began with the word. And the word was god. All else is the free will of man. But from Genesis unto Malachi, believers are to believe is contained the words of their god. The stories of his "speaking" unto his people. An accounting of his believers committing unto his will. Blame people for mistranslation all you wish, but what is contained in the word of god , if you believe in the bible, is the irrefutable words of god. So says god of the word. And if you believe the bible was inspired by god, then not to accept what is contained therein is to deny the inspired word, all of it, of god. And that, for a believer, is heresy. (dissension from the word)

Yes, I do.

Actually, if you read what I wrote I said I'm willing to believe it is at most a genetic predisposition in the same vein as alcoholism seems to be a genetic predisposition for some, I did not say I believe that's what it is, I said I'm willing to believe THAT much. However, I believe that a predisposition to anything does not make it a certainty, there are people who are born with a predisposition to heart problems but yet never actually suffer from them, and there are also people who are not born predisposed to heart problems and yet end up having heart attacks. So genetics are not, in my view the "be all, end all" answer to all problems.


Sorry, Goddess, I have not shied away from anything that I have been able to verify myself. That I have not taken your word for everything you have said is something altogether different.

Did God command the death of many? Yes, He did. Did He destroy mankind with a Flood? Yes, He did. Did He order Israel to do some violent things? Yes, He did. Guess what? He's God! This... everything around us, including us, is His to do with as He pleases. It's His creation. That He has chosen to do things this way is His prerogative. If you don't like it, that's too bad.

That God ordered Israel to do the things it did, does not in any way take away from the fact that people have used what is written in the Bible or their version of what is written in the Bible to support their own personal or cultural biases or discriminative acts. The Bible is divided into two Testaments because there was a new covenant established between God and man with Jesus's birth.

Ah so now it's all his prerogative. Murder, rape, human sacrifice, genocide, infanticide, etc... And it's all part of his plan. Whether people live in grace, or by their god given free will choose to fall from grace and be damned, it's all part of god's plan and his prerogative to give life and take it away. To order the rape of women, by the Israelites. To make women suffer in child birth because Eve dared eat of the tree of knowledge and tempt Adam unto the same. Because....he's god.

So then, why did god send his son, yeshua, to save people from those prerogatives and the plans!?

What do you feel a need to be right on???my opinion or choice of words would have no meaning to you if you didn't need to be right, one who is kool with how they beleeive are not offended or defensive over opinions.....

I have said on may occassions that its the dude in the sky with the pimped out pad, its my way of lightening up a really sensitive subject , i have said this before in other posts to you in particular...

This subject needs a sense of humour, if the big boss has a prob with me he can shoot some lightening at me or turn me to a pillar of salt until then its not personal, i have no need to insult you, i think you are insulted by us not believeig as you do.......hmmmm

Disagreeing with you and being intolerant of you are a bit different, i see you as the beloved perfect and shiny and new and extraordinary that has not changed son......i jsut diagree with a dogma that cause harm and since you are representing i am asking you whats up with that???

Its jsut a debate its not for the faint of heart on this side ....... As i said can't your religon hold up tp a bit of scrutiny, if it can't maybe thas something you should reevaluate.......

It can seem shocking when you have been relgious yor whole life and then learn that not everyone thinks as you do and with good reason, as far as i can tell you seem not on bit concerned about the issues that are presented jsut in being right.....

..

It's highly suspected and psychological tests have pointed to it because of the arousal factor to keep it clean for innocent eyes.

A genetic weakness to booze? Maybe then... Though, I'm drunk right now and I'm sin free!

Really? Because it seems to me that if it's in the "good" book it's truth. I was just using that as an example. It fits perfectly.



Here we have folks is the PA defense that has been used most recently on this forum and adopted by believers alike. This my good folks is a horrible defense up against Kratos and in general non-believers - We're all simply just too smart for this spoonful of bull.

Discrimination is directly from the bible, it's not being blamed on the bible for no reason you see when the bible preaches it! Trying to push off the awful facts of christians onto mankind in general just simply will not work because it's a lie!

this is very frightening Son, this is what we have issue with, this( abrahamic) god is not real so who is it that can do what ever they want and too bad???

Sadly that is alot of what we have a humanity doing what ever it wants ncluding destroying the planet and this is the attitude its jsut too bad..

Well not anymore many arenot laying down anymore , man alternate systems are being founded and peace is being the core message and torleance , this diest has valuse hta are horrendous and if any thing was to be called a sin it woudl be this dietys actions ..


What interests me is how you are okay with this and too afraid to question it or be appalled by it anf seem so non chalant......that worrys me....

Goddess, it is ALL part of His plan:

• Giving man the ability to choose to eat from the Tree despite having been told not to
• Choosing separation from God despite that fact that it leads to death
• Showing man that obeying God even when what He asks seems to be wrong
• Showing man that He has power over life and death and everything in between
• Showing man that there is nothing he can do to ever be able to repair the relationship which he chose to break
• Showing man that it takes blood (death) to heal the wound of disunity
• Sending His Son (God Himself in flesh) to show man how to love
• Sending His Son, to live a perfect life and then die for the sins of all who will accept the sacrifice
• Sending His Holy Spirit so that from then until now God will work through man as man chooses to accept the gift of eternal life and chooses to do the work God has prepared him

Yes, there was and still is a plan. I believe the plan is the plan that God began when He said "Let us make man in our own image." It is the plan to make man in the image of God and it is a plan which requires for everything that has happened and will happen to take place so that man can be completely educated and can truly understand how wonderful and how terrible and how awesome is the power of an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent God.

So then, if everything that occurs is part of gods plan. The evil and the good. If all that transpires by his command in the OT, the evil and the good, and to this day, is his prerogative as the awesome omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent called god.

Then when you say he is omniscient, he: Knows all things. He knows how we shall exercise our "free will". The evil and the good. The saved and the damned. So there is no need to believe in jesus because, in his right to exercise his prerogative, as part of his eternal plan, as a being that knows all things eternally, he need not send a savior from himself, in the fleshly guise of himself, so that he that believeth in him shall not perish but have eternal life. When an omniscient being knows who shall believe and have eternal life and who among us shall not believeth and thus shall perish.


When he is omnipresent: He is the alpha and the omega. He is the god , the "I am that I am". He is thus, each and every one of those god's that all those people he ordered slaughtered by his believers for not believing in "him". Because they dared believe in...him. If he is omnipresent, he is also the devil. And resides in the heavens and the hells and on earth.

When he is all powerful, or omnipotent, it's all his prerogative. To damn or save. Because everything, everything that happens be it evil or good, is all part of his plan. So tell me, how is it one needs to seek salvation or return to grace, or learn from the mistakes suffered by the exercise of one's god given free will, how is it that "none come to the father save through me", when the father is "me". And what is one saving themselves from, but god!? As he is omnipresent and as such is all things. Salvation and that which one seeks salvation from. And if god is all things then god , making all things in his image and likeness, is found in the beingness of every gay person on earth. As well as every straight and Bi. If god is omnipresent.

So the exercise of free will by our likeness as god, (omnipresent), as part of his plans and as his prerogative, is all really god, being himself in, of and as, all that is, was and shall be.

I am that I am.

It's only frightening because you choose to be frightened by it, Supra. How are you frightened by a God you don't believe in? That's what I want to know.

Supra, here is something to scare you even more. I can choose to do whatever I want just like you can. I choose to obey my God. My God tells me to share His love with everyone. Isn't that incredibly frightening!? Will you sleep calmly tonight knowing that I intend to share love with every single person I meet because that is what the frightening non-existent God you deny is TELLING me to do?


You are right! Humanity who chooses to ignore the opportunity for unity with God does some incredibly destructive and evil things. Some of that humanity chooses to hide from itself under the false cloak of Christianity. How incredibly horrible, especially because if everyone just chose to accept God's gift of Salvation through Christ, they would KNOW what He wants them to do, and then instead of hatred, discrimination, and pure evil, we could all share God's love with each other.


Really!?!? Tolerance? Supra, your own words show the lie of this message! There is no tolerance in your beliefs! None at all. There is only a false, frightened sense of superiority and a false sense that everything is really all right and everything would be so much better if we could only get rid of the people who still cling to their stupid false beliefs in a non-existent god.

Supra, it is obvious that you do not accept me. Oh I know you'll say, "Iams, I do accept you, you are just a poor deluded man, but I accept you." But the truth is that the only way you would accept me is if I were to renounce my beliefs in God.

I, on the other hand, do accept you, just as you are because I know you and I are the same. We are both sinners! I only wish that you may someday see that the only difference between us is that you fear a god you don't believe in and I serve God, who loves you and me exactly as we are and exactly because of who we are.

Pardon my ignorance, however how does one feel fear for something they do not believe exists!?

Goddess, omnipresent means God is everywhere, omniscient means God knows everything, and omnipotent means he is all-powreful, I don't know where you're getting this idea that means God is everything. But since you have committed that error and your whole post is based on that false assumption everything you just wrote is wrong.

That's what I'm asking Supra.

I tend to agree with GW: It is my personal belief that we are a part of god, and god is a part of each of us.

And that god appears in many guises to different people, according to what that person needs.

Omnipresent - Present everywhere simultaneously

simultaneous- Happening, existing, or done at the same time