ele, you have some pivitol points my friend, and great inquirys....you get me thinking every post i read by you...

do you think a fear based diety allows for alot of discrepencies alot of rope, one feels worthless as it is challenging this 'energy' dude":thing' may not be a high priority???? I think when we feel we are sinful anyways and are very consumed with saving our souls so our name will be called out for the paradise, not much else is gonna matter, just thinking out loud, do you think, the plan may be focused on 'self preservation, 'self salvation, you can't be to worried about any one else.......i wonder if relgion creates self absorbed people?????

Thanks Sheri, in one simple answer I will say that the Abrahamic religions appear to me to be the very opposite of what humanity needs right now and has always needed. The plan seems to be one to get people to hand over what makes them human, their selfworth, their curiosity, their place in this world, the opportunity to enjoy what the physical senses have to offer and the experience of it. I see rules, dont do this, dont do that, the Church has always taken a hard line against sex, femininity and the divine self, restriciting us, stopping us from growing, the whole time saying just accept this one thing and thats all that matters. This place must be akin to a cosmic playground but someone is trying to steal the fun, calling it the Devil's Playground, "be as children" falling on deaf ears while the blood sacrifice of a self-created guilt complex takes the stage. They call Satan the God of this world, has anyone looked at our planet and not felt something very special deep down inside? What does God have to offer besides the guilt and sin of being who we are, blood sacrifice and the empty promise of something later?

The foundation of religions are usually good. It's their applications that suck.

If Jesus is God and said love your neighbor, love your enemy and turn the other cheek what the heck do you think he was trying to tell people? Go ahead and crap on the world, fight wars under my name? His message fell on deaf ears and in its place this plan for salvation took center stage. I would say his plan failed.

But I will take what you have said, agree that it is his plan and see how it holds up. God isnt concerned about this life but the life after? God needs to be slapped in my opinion because I would say that a good state of being in this life is conducive to man succeeding in God's plan for the next life. How will our souls grow if we live in a garbage dump? If God really wanted to win this battle of souls he would see that our enivornment here is very important. Why would Jesus preach non-violence if God doesnt care about this life? Why would anything we do here matter if God isnt concerned with our life here? How can our short time here have any relevance to the afterlife if God isnt concerned with this "rock"? Well I guess he is only concerned with one thing right, accepting one dude Jesus that as I've said some have never heard of. I'm thinking that God lacks creativity if this is his divine plan, who cares what happens in the world, crap on it age after age for all I care just accept Jesus and you win YAY! That would have to be the most boring divine board game I have ever heard of and I'm sure many Earth/nature based beliefs would love to puke all over this concept. Is it any wonder that the Earth is such a dump right now, with this being God's plan?

Ya I know you answered me the first time, but as I said hopefully I can get a straight answer, becuase "So far, no one in this discussion has said that the nice little African bushman will not get in. The Bible doesn't seem to say anything about it one way or the other." is a load of crap and a typical maneuver, you're answer is in direct contradiction to the 'you must accept Jesus to get into heaven(no ones gets to the Father except through me)' dogma of Christianity. By saying that someone who hasnt accepted Jesus can get into heaven you are making Jesus obsolete in his role that Christianity made for him. So I gave you another chance.

From what you have said you should no doubt agree with these statements, "Accepting Jesus is not a prerequisite for admission into heaven" and "Jesus isnt the only way to salvation". You agree?
You dont follow any particular denomination of Christianity but you follow the teachings laid out by one of these denominations right? Read the Bible that one denomination put together, accept dogma created by one of these denominations. Jesus being God, the trinity and original sin were all later additions to Christianity, created by a denomination that you have nothing to do with right?

Christianitys role is to spread the world of its Christ and the salvation he offers by accepting his sacrifice, if you dont accept his sacrifice you remain a sinner and cannot get to the Father. So if you have never heard of Jesus or his sacrifice you cannot be saved and cannot get to the Father and go to Hell, second death, speration from God, etc. You may not like to admit it but as the set rules of salvation go these people cannot enter Heaven and are damned from the beginning all because they havent heard of some guy, one frikkin guy who supposedly spoke for God, one God for all of humanity who picks one tribe and one guy to speak for him. It doesnt make sense until its considered that people with their own plans made up this path for salvation, people looking for converts, people looking to grow in influence, people that were trying to sell their new concept of God and got rich and powerful from doing it. Their concept doesnt need to have all the answers because only one important point needed to be conveyed to the people, join us or die, a spiritual death, an eternal torturous death. Its plain and easy to see that those making up this plan for salvation were frauds, their plan hits a snag right from the beginning so they used the threat of eternal death to sway opinion. A real god doesnt need to make excuses but God is full of them.

Not only that but these African bushman have existed as they are for tens of thosands of years with their own gods that have existed for far longer than this tribal God came around. God had all the time he needed to tell the bushman of his existence and his sacrifice for their salvation but he didnt, an all-powerful God could have done that in an instant, that is if time is even a factor for him. They didnt know of this God or his Son, they didnt need his sacrifice because they had never heard of original sin. Original sin doesnt exist to them so they dont need God, they have their own gods. Would you take them seriously if they told you what their gods expected of you or would you find it interesting but unnecessary? There is one difference however and that is that their beliefs have many similarities to other shamanic cultures beliefs in the world that they had never spoken to or heard of, in the Amazon, Asia, Australia and even in Europe when Shamanism was still around there. It seems their gods have done a better job of spreading the word than God has done, God requires his followers to travel, spread the word and convert people sometimes peacefully sometimes violently, the Shamanic gods dont need that they already existed in the minds of Amazonians, Asians, Europeans and Aboriginals and had for tens of thousands of years.

Relax: the little african bushmen will go to heaven if he was good IN GODS EYES not in the eyes of some people who concider themself judges because they belong to the right religion.
God is a father of love; he does not send an innocent child to earth, into a religion that does not know Jesus and then punishes the child for his own (Gods) action.
He also is NO DRACULA who needs to sacrifies his good son to save the bad. He can forgive us simoly because he loves us.
'As you saw so you reap' the law says, not 'As you saw, so Jesus reaps'. This 'easy salvation' as well as 'hell after death', has been invented by the church to ensure that they get the church-taxes; how else will the pope, cardinals and priests be able to upkeep their lifestyles.

But the Bible says that not one is good in God's eyes. We have ALL sinned and fall short. So, that can't be it.

You are confusing Jesus' message with God's plan. They are not the same. The message of Jesus was love. The plan of Jesus was salvation. Jesus taught to love selflessly without expectation of return, but that concept is just a little too lofty for most humans. If someone loves, they expect something in return. The message was love, but humans can't (or won't) follow that message. If you want to blame God for the crappy state of the world, or if you want to blame the believers of God for the crappy state of this world, then go ahead. I'll blame humanity and human selfishness for the crappy state of this world and address the real issue.

My job, as a Christian is to love others, obey God, and do the work He has set for me. It's the same for all Christians. And, yes, part of the work we are given is to spread the Gospel. However, God never said that we are the ONLY way the truth gets out there, and He is omnipotent, and He is loving, so again I repeat, I don't know, you don't know, and no one else does for sure either how the word gets out to those who are not reached by Christians as they do the work that has been prepared for us, but you also can't prove it doesn't, so despite the fact that it may make you feel better about yourself to try to put Christianity in a nice little box so that it looks silly and is easier for you to go on with your life, the little box is just your idea and in no way reflects reality.

You are assuming that you know what God's plan is. Nice try, but I somehow doubt you actually can know.

His message of love fell on deaf ears, he failed is my point, you're ignoring my comments about failed prophets and focussing on God's plan. I know you guys love breaking out his mysterious plan when tough questions are asked but this isnt just about God's plan but the failures of his prophets. Two thousand years and Christians still love a good war, oh and the excitement of Armegeddon ooohhhhh I bet you all cant wait lol. For two thousand years Christians have been waiting for something that was supposed to happen in the generation of Jesus' time but didnt, how long is too long to wait? Either a fraud or a failure in my opinion.

His message of love fell on deaf ears, he failed is my point, you're ignoring my comments about failed prophets and focussing on God's plan. I know you guys love breaking out his mysterious plan when tough questions are asked but this isnt just about God's plan but the failures of his prophets. Two thousand years and Christians still love a good war, oh and the excitement of Armegeddon ooohhhhh I bet you all cant wait lol. For two thousand years Christians have been waiting for something that was supposed to happen in the generation of Jesus' time but didnt, how long is too long to wait? Either a fraud or a failure in my opinion.

It looks like all this bible pushers have overseen one vital message that Jesus gave, namely:
'In THAT AGE TO COME....'
...so he never said that the kingdom will come in his lifetime, but in the next age, the age of Aquarius, when he returns no doubt reincarnated. But this is just another verse of the bible we wont hear from th culpit, because it would imply reincarnation, which they claim is not biblical, right? Wrong: Jesus said that John the Baptist WAS Elijah and that John/Elijah will come again in the endtimes to restore all things. He also dares us to hear if we have ears (Matthew 11/11, 11/17). Now if that is not reincarnation, what is?
Also, the book of Enoch has been taken out of the bible1000 years ago.WHY? Because Enoch predicted HIS OWN RETURN AS JESUS und that nobody will mislead more of Gods sheep then the last 12 sheppards; the apostles, and that they will NOT DO what HE/JESUS told them to do but their own things.
He also wrote that God told Michael to throw 'the fallen angels' into the 'valley of the earth' for 70 generations (7000years) untill judgement-day.
Interesting, because what is standing there if I understand it right, is that hell is on earth! Makes sense to me! and that is why God does not interfers untill judgement-day.
What does hell look like on pictures? Demons having orgies! Is that not what is happening on earth right now with orgies, threesomes, casual sex ect.? And is it not HERE that we have to suffer, find love, work our a.. off to survive ect?
Just a thought...

... and we all know what opinions are worth.

Why would that imply reincarnation? Please explain.

If Johnwas Elijah before and he was to come again, then that means he would be here 3 times. And this are only the 3 times we are made aware off...
Enoch said he will come back as Jesus, and he did, and he says he will come again to rule the kingdom-AFTER ELIJAH has paved the way/ restored all things. That is also 3 times we have been told of.
The church always claims that David was speaking about Jesus when he said: 'His Lord, said to my Lord, sit on my right site...' David did not know Jesus, so how does the church know that he was talking about Jesus? Because ENOCH wrote, that God told him to sit on his right site and that he will return as Jesus. They just don't tell us how the know...

First, if you actually read the Scriptures you see that John actually told people he was NOT Elijah.

Second, David knew that Messiah was coming. So h was talking about Messiah.

You need to actually read the stuff not just what someone misquotes in some website to make their own point.

Isis - I read you loud and clear. I always felt as though if there is a hell, it can't be any worse than right here. And reincarnation is clearly implied in "the second coming" (as in "yo homies I'm coming back in another lifetime!"). And the Aquarius thing - with you on that too.

Plus I always felt that when Jesus was saying all that "only through me can one reach my father" thing, I always felt he was saying through Christ (as opposed to Jesus - which are two VERY different things). Christ is a title that is everyone's birthright, whereas Jesus was just a man - albeit a highly enlightened one).

Geez - and I'm not even Christian.

And the whole woman/duality thing - I'm cool on that too. There has to be a female principle running the show behind the scenes.

Get the fire burning boys - two more heretics for you to roast!

I agree with you, that none comes to the father except through CHRIST. Christ means LOVE, and hence the message reads: NOBODY COME TO THE FATHER EXCEPT THROUGH LOVE.
He also said: 'What I am, you are...'.
If he was God, then we must be God too, or if we are not God, that neither was he according to his own words! Right?
PS: my native language is not endlish. Would you be so kind to tell mewhat HERETICS are? Thanks...

Actually, there are hundreds of thousands of them, not even counting Ethiopians.
I was answering the original question based on the source. I don't follow Judiasm or Xianity.

Heretic-A person who holds controversial opinions, especially one who publicly dissents from the officially accepted dogma of the Roman Catholic Church.
I like your translation of the jesus myth. If indeed all that followed christ believed they were as he said, god and able to do as he did, remembering his admonishing that the kingdom of heaven is within, perhaps the institutionalization of his teachings wouldn't boast a shameful history of the dead, blood, oppression and intolerance of all others that do not believe. But maybe those that translated it in that way took him at his word when he said he did not come to bring peace, but the sword. One can not bear a sword and intend to impart peace. So maybe your insight is better served than the tradition of the word. Be the peace. Be the creator of the heaven one wishes to witness on earth and let the after life sort itself out when we get there.

"You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war." Albert Einstein

Elijah did not believe in himself, so did John not know who he was but JESUS said JOHN was Elijah...
(Matthew 11/11, 11/17)
...so feel free to read it for yourself. I for one believe what Jesus said, not what John or anybody else says for that matter...
But of course you don't have to take my word on it.
Just follow your own advise and read before you write...
God bless you...

Jesus referred to John the Baptist by saying, "If you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come." Yet, when the priests and Levites asked John the Baptist directly. "Are you Elijah?" he replied. "I am not."

The resolution comes from recognizing that the Old Testament predicts that Elijah comes back twice, once in connection with Christ's incarnation and later before Christ's return as judge and king.

In the case of the second coming, Malachi 4 says that Elijah will return personally, in the flesh. No such specific statement, however, is made for the first coming. Luke 1 records that an angel told Zechariah, the father of John the Baptist, that his son would "go on before the Lord in the spirit and power of Elijah! 'This was the same description used for Elijah's assistant and successor, Elishah. Though Elishah and Elijah were clearly different individuals, Elishah was acknowledged as one who ministered with the spirit and power of Elijah. John the Baptist likewise was not the person of Elijah, but he did minister with the zeal and message of Elijah, calling everyone to repent.

And, as far as we know, unlike John, Elijah didn’t eat bugs as part of his diet (although it may have taken the spirit and zeal of Elijah to pull that one off.

John 1:19-23.
Now this was John's testimony when the Jews of Jerusalem sent priests and Levites to ask him who he was. He did not fail to confess, but confessed freely, "I am not the Christ.

They asked him, "Then who are you? Are you Elijah?"
He said, "I am not."
"Are you the Prophet?"
He answered, "No."

Finally they said, "Who are you? Give us an answer to take back to those who sent us. What do you say about yourself?" John replied in the words of Isaiah the prophet, "I am the voice of one calling in the desert, 'Make straight the way for the Lord.' "

If Gabriel had specifically referred to Elijah in giving his prophecy about John's life, why did John deny being Elijah when confronted by the priests? Of course he wasn't the Messiah. Nor was he the prophet promised by Moses in Deut. 18:15 who would actually be the Messiah as well. But why didn't he admit to being Elijah? Or at least say he was called to minister in the power and spirit of Elijah?

The fact that he wasn't literally Elijah (although 2 Kings 2:11 tells us that Elijah went live into heaven) is too simple an answer. He could only have been speaking from the knowledge that he would not be accepted as Elijah, knowing in advance that the people would reject his ministry.

The Lord clarified this in the third passage, Matt 17:10-13.
The disciples asked him, "Why then do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?"
Jesus replied, "To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things. But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands." Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist.

Just as the Lord would not be accepted as the Messiah, neither would John be accepted as Elijah. Both would have to come again. The proof of this is that the second option of Malachi 4:5 ended up being fulfilled. The land was cursed.

I reject crazies of any kind who want to wipe me out because I refuse to believe what they choose for me to believe.
Different song, same voice singing in hate. Still can't carry a tune well.

Elijah did not believe in himself, so did John not know who he was but JESUS said JOHN was Elijah...
(Matthew 11/11, 11/17)
...so feel free to read it for yourself. I for one believe what Jesus said, not what John or anybody else says for that matter...
But of course you don't have to take my word on it.
Just follow your own advise and read before you write...
God bless you...

Here are a couple of clarifications to your question about Elijah:

SOURCE
SOURCE

There's a bit more to reading the Scriptures than there is to reading the latest thriller. You have to approach it like you would any text in an advanced college course. Read it, study it, takes notes, look for additional clarifications. Remember, you are reading a translation, so, you may not be getting the full meaning of some words/phrases, you are also missing out on any cultural significance to some words/phrases, it's always good to use a concordance, a commentary (or several), and a dictionary. It's also always great, when possible, to speak with an expert in theology and the Bible (and just because someone is a pastor or minister does not mean they have the proper educational qualifications to be considered an expert)

A link with some interesting quotes, enjoy.

http://www.deathofreligion.com/

My personal favorite...

"When I call for the death of religion, I'm not joking. It needs to be killed. And we're the executioners. Here. Now. We're ready."

Tis true, everyday more people not just reject religion but want to see it take its last breath, crush these dividing beliefs, the guilt complex, the backwardness, the rallying cry of God before war crimes are committed. We reject the big threes moral hypocrisy, the freedom and equality that all should have, men, women, homosexuals. We reject religion's rejection of ground breaking scientific advancement, passing a death sentence on those with diseases that could be cured because they cry out that we are trying to be God. If God stands in the way of knowledge and advancement then he needs to be killed.

Please remember God did not create religion, we did.

Oh I'm sorry please remeber that we created God too, and God didnt elevate us to any achievement, he reflects his creators immaturity and prejudice.

Thanks for explaining Heretics to me, GoddessWhispers.
Interesting name you chose; so You are another one in the image of the Holy spirit.
I was wondering which sin it is that mankind commit against the Holy Spirit that the father and the son will never forgive? But before I write my own conclusion, I like to hear you opinions!

Hi 'I am's son'
I see you have read and wrote verses off the bible.
Now let me see:
Jesus said according to your own writing: 'If you are willing to accept it, he is Elijah who was to come....' and 'Elijah has already come, but they did not recognize him but have done to him everything they wished (they killed John). In the same way the son of man is going to suffer at their hands.'
You are a Christian and I assume that you believe in Jesus and what he said, but you obviously do not want TO ACCEPT JESUS's first statement that John was Elijah! Why is that? Do you concider John wiser then Jesus?
Then Jesus tells us AGAIN that Elijah/John was already there and they did to him what they will do to Jesus as well, namely kill him.
I dont need any other EXPERT than JESUS tell me the truth, because John was obviously not as spiritual as Jesus was and did not know who he was, just like you dont know who you use to be.
Interestig is also that the verse where Jesus said ; 'No-one come to the father except through me...' you seem to take liturally but if it does not suit you, then you seem to find your own interpretations for other things he said...mmmmmm!
So I guess that makes you no different to me...
MY missionstatement:
I do not believe ANYTHING I hear or see or read about God or Jesus, that does not agree with a 'God of love', that makes sense and that is fair; regardless how many Bibles or University Degrees that person has.
Knowledge does not equal wisdom, and it is wisdom that I prefer... and that comes not from reading books but from within!
God bless you...

Oh I'm sorry please remeber that we created God too, and God didnt elevate us to any achievement, he reflects his creators immaturity and prejudice.

I dont hate prejudice because hating is wrong... whatever.

Or maybe you have your own concept of god that has been mixed up with and associated with this Abrahamic spoiled toddler. Humans have lived as sinners for the past two thousand because of this religion and didnt change the whole time, its time humanity finished off this guilt complex and saw themselves as something not only worthy of but better than this jealous nutjob.

And why do people keep playing this hating the followers card, like its some moral high ground? It is time for these RELIGIONS to shape up or ship out. Get with the times or pipe down. If it doesnt get in my way I wont get in its way but it has already gotten in my way with its backwardness being imposed on secular countries advancement, so now it has to take whats coming to it.

Why do you fight with something you believe does not exist? You can not fight another’s belief. In your mind your adversary is only imaginary.

If it doesnt get in my way I wont get in its way but it has already gotten in my way with its backwardness being imposed on secular countries advancement, so now it has to take whats coming to it.

Actually I'm atheist. In other words I don't believe in god, holy spirit, etc... I choose the Screen Name (SN) because, as far as an ideology of creator , or in my female case creatress, goes, I am the goddess of my life. I was given life by the only power I recognize as creator, which was my mother and father.

As for your question as to which sin is it that mankind can commit against the holy spirit that will never be forgiven, it is said blasphemy of that holy spirit is the only sin unable to be forgiven. Though again that would be according to the christian religious myths and believers. Some not all, I should clarify. Hope that assists a bit in answering your inquiry.

Why do you fight with something you believe does not exist? You can not fight another’s belief. In your mind your adversary is only imaginary.

Well said. It's known that the gospels were written well after jesus was said to have died. And that even the titles , Matthew mark Luke etc... are not those of the apostles themselves but rather most likely of the scribes that wrote them. So, in consideration of all that I ask anyone reading this that cares to participate in this little test, to recall a conversation you had with someone you know very well. Remember every word that was said 10 years ago!? How about 20 years ago!? 5? 1?

That gives a bit of an idea as to what one is talking about when they consider that the gospels were written as much as 30 years ago. And even that is considered, by many theologians, an educated guess or even foolish speculation. (read here for one opinion) An article found via Yahoo and keywords: date gospels. A search that garnered over 1 million hits, btw.

Hi Isis,

I'm not sure you read the information I presented to you. It clarifies that Jesus was pointing out John's role as "Elijah" someone who was bringing the same message as Elijah, not the actual person Elijah, or a reincarnation. John's statement supports Jesus's statement. He said, "No, I am not Elijah, but I am a voice in the wilderness..." Basically, saying I am not the Elijah, but I am his representation in this time, I bring the message he brought.

Define exists.

Because as far as unicorns go they dont exist, they dont interfere in my life and the lives of others who dont believe in unicorns. But God even if he exists or doesnt exist matters little because God has intefered in my life and the lives of others who dont believe in him. The very second a religious group opens their mouth and tries to change the policies of a secular country is the day they make enemies. When the world has bigger problems than the who gets what dusty piece of ground in the holy land of these thousands of year old religions, that still cant get their crap together, they have interfered in my life. When backwards beliefs alter political policies because they think we are trying to be God it affects everyone. When religious political powerbases pressure politicians to stop homosexuals from getting married it affects my friends and thus affects me.

So you see when people start using unicorns to change everyone's lives, I will cut the metaphorical throat of these unicorns.

Not to mention, who created the adversary to God hhmmmm? If Gods followers think they are in a battle with the adversary of God why not hear what the adversaries have to say? Or is this battle make believe and only the religious can fight an enemy that doesnt exist? The religious say to the effect of God will defeat Satan and lock him up in Hell so he can be tortured for eternity, thats Christian belief and seen as valid but when Satanists say they want to take God down it becomes some moral issue, an issue of existence and belief. I hope you see where I am going with this. I'm part of your belief.

Isis, I concur it is a good rule of thumb to not excpt any message from anywhere that is not presented in "unconditional" love, meaning a message that has conditons to it would be fear based whcih is the majority of the bible......
Son, the bible especially the jesus stuff was written years after by those that didn't know him, you can' t seriously call it what he said, they didn't know him they were repeating storys , its called historical fiction meaning there may be facts but most is made up....
The best you can do is interperet based on your level of understanding ( actaully tthat is what you are doing) reflecting what you are aware of or concious of... ......or what you were taught it meant.....

christ also was a conciousness a level of awareness that is why it is called a christ (love selfless transcendence of ego identification etc etc....) conciousness also, it may of been unconditional love but no its not even known if there was a jesus , it may very well be a metaphor for a state of understanding, much like Bhakti, or nirvana , or bliss or ahimsha, these are states of beingness meaning you make your choices based in this awareness.. so arguing that jesus said this and that is rhetoric at best.....

Supra, I don't know if you have ever met anyone who was at Dealey Plaza the day JFK was shot, 43 years ago, or the day U.S. troops landed at Normandy over 60 years ago, I have met someone who was at Dealey, and he remembers how JFK looked, how the place smelled, even what the person standing next to him said when the shots were fired, he wrote it all down, but he still remembers clearly. I knew a man who was part of the landings at Normandy beach, each and every second of that day of the landing was clearly etched in his memory. I also know a man who was in a concentration camp in Germany, he remembers every single facial feature of every single German soldier who was ever near him (he was 7 years old at the time). I very clearly remember the day the Challenger exploded live on TV.

I say all this to remind you that the human mind is a powerful recorder and that it was even better among a people who were used to having to memorize all kinds of daily details because there was no handy notepad and pen, no camcorder, no tape recorders to take the place of their personal memories. They remembered and then someone wrote the accounts down. Additionally, Jesus told the disciple that the Holy Spirit would remind them of everything they had seen and heard while they were with Him, so, I believe the accounts are way more accurate than you want to believe.