OK I'm thinking even if every prophet was inpired by God and expressing the will of God, Jesus was the Son of God and its all true, what does that say about them? Its been like two thousand years since Jesus supposedly walked the earth and what has he accomplished? God's word supposedly goes back even farther with the Jews what has that gotten them? They're still fighting, popping kids in the head 13 times to be sure they arent a threat while God's newest children try and blow the crap out of some buses full of God's other children.
If these people were enlightened prophets speaking for God, they are failures in my opinion, all of them. They're words havent inspired humanity to achieve greatness, none of them have succeeded in bringing peace, none of them have conveyed the importance of keeping the Earth in good shape, all they talk about is superstitious morality and the glory of God while humanity continues on like a bag of meat and bones with a death wish running for the slaughterhouse.
So after all of these thousands of years if God's chosen ones cant change us, they are either frauds or failures. So how long do you hang on to a doomed plan, how long do you sink with the ship when the rats have already jumped ship? When does the time come when people will stop relying on fairytales and charlatans and start looking for their own answers? Two thousand years is long enough in my opinion, if God was trying to better humanity and bring peace on earth why are his children still fighting? If the fault lies with the followers then God is a failure as a leader. Who's the first to go when a team starts losing? The Coach.
Look back in history a few thousand years since God revealed his plan for us, what do you see? I see a bunch of crap, corruption and conflict(and some scientific advancement when God wasnt looking lol), now look ahead another few thousand years, what do you expect to see if these same failures lead us spiritually? Do you really want to see humanity re-live that? I dont think humanity can live through that.
Full Version: How Long Is Too Long?
Ele, That is an excelelnt question, It is observable that 'gods' plan ' ain't working..unless you are wanting violence and hatred...
funny any parent of a rebelliious teen (and they usually rebel becasue they have too) knows that its the letting go of the rules that actaully establishes them, the wise parent anyways.....
funny any parent of a rebelliious teen (and they usually rebel becasue they have too) knows that its the letting go of the rules that actaully establishes them, the wise parent anyways.....
I wonder also, how long must we wait before humans are ready to realize and admit that we've been had by the prophets of religion? If we keep trying to change the meanings of the many Bibles to fit their many contradictions and stay in denial we will continue it to our end. If humans are going to survive on this earth, we have to start worrying about real issues, not whose God is better.
Well, thus far after all this time, we have persons claiming biblical admonitions to deny equal rights to gay citizens in the greatest free nation on Earth, America.
We have rifle wielding zealots that scope and execute doctors for performing abortions. When women have what are called, "D&C" , as a regular gynecological procedure every day in this country, without one peep from the anti-life terrorist factions among us. (D&C involves the same procedure as that of an abortion, in that it literally scrapes the walls of a womans uterus clean of any tissue or organic materials affixed)
We have in our American history a record of slavery of the black race. Wherein persons were bought and sold to serve white citizens because they were believed to be devoid of a soul and as such were relegated to the class of animal.
We have a President that believes he was told to run for office by his god. Told to lie about WMD's so as to invade Saddam's Iraq. We have a later 20th century record wherein President Bill Clinton was actually impeached for lying about receiving oral sex from a **** intern while in the service of his elected presidential duties in the oval office and yet no one has yet convened a panel to impeach the current President for lying about WMD's that has now put us into year 4 of the Iraq war. All because god told him to go there and take out a mass murderer our government knew about for years, even during the Clinton term.
We have the insane cross posse' that travel this country and protest soldiers funerals because they feel compelled by their god to declare that god hates America!
We have bigots that dare say there is only one way to believe in the invisible, intangible contemporary monotheistic ideology called religion, be it xtianity, deviant translations and applications of muslim faith, because they believe all the world is damned unless they accept there are only one doctrine(s) for all of humanity.
We have the NT wherein that 2000 years is long past what was promised by the jesus of faith, when he said he would return before that generation passed away. Given the span of time that defines a generation, I'd say it's fair to say he's long overdue.
And of course we have the devout that see jesus and Mary in rust stains, precipitation on glass and the tops of grilled cheese. And what is this Representative of really!? In my opinion the retort to your inquiry in this thread title. Desperation. Because holding faith for so long, without anything to show for it, save what one ascribes as reason to continue in that vein, breeds fear one may be wrong. Else, why would zealots be intimidated by other persons that choose to freely exercise their right to believe differently, or not at all, in an unseen causative factor behind all that we believe exists!? If they defend they are free to practice their faith, why is it they (some, not all), refuse to accept that some people are free not to practice nor accept tenets of religious faith!? Because devout faith breeds prejudice against those not of the faith. How long is to long, long enough to create this world we have today. Decorated with man faithful and many temples, and yet at war with itself and it's environment for dominion over it all. In the name of power, politic and the mythology called religion. How long is to long!? As long as the human intellect abdicates personal responsibility for creating the social and political environment present in this world, to some imaginary friend in the heavens, it shall be an eternity of religious oppression, sadism and intollerance, prejudice and separatism. All affected by human choice, all excused as a edict by an invisible being that happens to bear the personality of the worst of humankind, with a different, other worldly, address. Man made god in his image. And as such this world is more hell than heaven. Just ask the AIDS/HIV plagued Africans that are forbidden condoms because the Catholic temple was errected in the presence of their dying, so as to offer them salvation after the starvation takes them, to see we are the devil of our greatest fears.
We have rifle wielding zealots that scope and execute doctors for performing abortions. When women have what are called, "D&C" , as a regular gynecological procedure every day in this country, without one peep from the anti-life terrorist factions among us. (D&C involves the same procedure as that of an abortion, in that it literally scrapes the walls of a womans uterus clean of any tissue or organic materials affixed)
We have in our American history a record of slavery of the black race. Wherein persons were bought and sold to serve white citizens because they were believed to be devoid of a soul and as such were relegated to the class of animal.
We have a President that believes he was told to run for office by his god. Told to lie about WMD's so as to invade Saddam's Iraq. We have a later 20th century record wherein President Bill Clinton was actually impeached for lying about receiving oral sex from a **** intern while in the service of his elected presidential duties in the oval office and yet no one has yet convened a panel to impeach the current President for lying about WMD's that has now put us into year 4 of the Iraq war. All because god told him to go there and take out a mass murderer our government knew about for years, even during the Clinton term.
We have the insane cross posse' that travel this country and protest soldiers funerals because they feel compelled by their god to declare that god hates America!
We have bigots that dare say there is only one way to believe in the invisible, intangible contemporary monotheistic ideology called religion, be it xtianity, deviant translations and applications of muslim faith, because they believe all the world is damned unless they accept there are only one doctrine(s) for all of humanity.
We have the NT wherein that 2000 years is long past what was promised by the jesus of faith, when he said he would return before that generation passed away. Given the span of time that defines a generation, I'd say it's fair to say he's long overdue.
And of course we have the devout that see jesus and Mary in rust stains, precipitation on glass and the tops of grilled cheese. And what is this Representative of really!? In my opinion the retort to your inquiry in this thread title. Desperation. Because holding faith for so long, without anything to show for it, save what one ascribes as reason to continue in that vein, breeds fear one may be wrong. Else, why would zealots be intimidated by other persons that choose to freely exercise their right to believe differently, or not at all, in an unseen causative factor behind all that we believe exists!? If they defend they are free to practice their faith, why is it they (some, not all), refuse to accept that some people are free not to practice nor accept tenets of religious faith!? Because devout faith breeds prejudice against those not of the faith. How long is to long, long enough to create this world we have today. Decorated with man faithful and many temples, and yet at war with itself and it's environment for dominion over it all. In the name of power, politic and the mythology called religion. How long is to long!? As long as the human intellect abdicates personal responsibility for creating the social and political environment present in this world, to some imaginary friend in the heavens, it shall be an eternity of religious oppression, sadism and intollerance, prejudice and separatism. All affected by human choice, all excused as a edict by an invisible being that happens to bear the personality of the worst of humankind, with a different, other worldly, address. Man made god in his image. And as such this world is more hell than heaven. Just ask the AIDS/HIV plagued Africans that are forbidden condoms because the Catholic temple was errected in the presence of their dying, so as to offer them salvation after the starvation takes them, to see we are the devil of our greatest fears.
So, although all believers are to be painted with the brush of corruption, violence, hatred, and failure, they are to get no credit for the benevolence, successes, improvements, and advancements that they have either contributed to or accomplished all on their own?
It's easy to make anyone appear to be a failure when you hate them to begin with and then you purposefully focus on all the possible negatives and then blow them up beyond reality.
It's easy to make anyone appear to be a failure when you hate them to begin with and then you purposefully focus on all the possible negatives and then blow them up beyond reality.
QUOTE(Supra Sheri @ Dec 13 2006, 11:50 AM) [snapback]1461007[/snapback]
Ele, That is an excelelnt question, It is observable that 'gods' plan ' ain't working..unless you are wanting violence and hatred...
funny any parent of a rebelliious teen (and they usually rebel becasue they have too) knows that its the letting go of the rules that actaully establishes them, the wise parent anyways.....
funny any parent of a rebelliious teen (and they usually rebel becasue they have too) knows that its the letting go of the rules that actaully establishes them, the wise parent anyways.....
Thats what I'm thinking, either those who have concocted this 'Plan' are failures or their plan isnt what they say it is. If a country is losing a war but insists they're not and should stay put(Iraq hint hint lol) it should be considered that the plan they have told you isnt their actual plan in reality.
God is a divider, first he selects a small tribal group and calls this fraction of the human population his chosen ones, thanks buddy. Then he selects or is one guy and sells his forgiveness if you accept this one guy as your ticket, that is if you have heard of him. God doesnt speak for all of humanity he speaks for small select groups, offers salvation to the few that have heard of it. If we are infact tainted with sin and God was to free us of this sin, being the all-knowing and all-forgiving guy he claims to be, he would offer it to all humanity free of charge, no stipulations like accepting one guy, one guy that even God's first chosen tribe didnt accept lol failure, it would have just been handed to us all for nothing, nothing asked, nothing gained for him, just given to all *here*. Of course that would be too easy, it would make getting new converts, a new Church and getting rich a tough idea to sell.
I know of a truly "universal religion", a spiritual system that every human comes equipped with, without hearing about one guy or reading one book or following one cultures morality. A businessman in New York catching a cab to his 9-5 job is able to experience the same thing that an Amazonian running around in his underpants spearing monkeys can. Humanity also lived in balance with its environment for tens of thousands of years with this system, this system is also the first known human "religion" and is thought to have given birth to humanities first artistic expression. This system doesnt ask anyone to know of and accept one guy or one tribe, it doesnt pick favourites or threaten with damnation, it just exists. Most know it as Shamanism, a broad term, I prefer Trance. An atheist businessman in NY as I said can enter this state that his brain comes equipped with and encounter situations, knowledge and beings that are similar or exactly the same as an Amazonian will experience in Trance, 5000 miles apart or 5000 years apart it doesnt matter. These beings often appear as reptilians, giant snakes, or animal headed-human hybrids. These trance states leave people feeling a sense of oneness, wonder, compassion for life in all its forms and enlightened with a sense of greater knowledge. These trance states gave birth to human artistic expression, human spirituality and arguable made us what we are today. But these dividing religions came in seeking power and labelled and stigmatized everything to do with Trance, the snake, nature, entheogens and experential knowledge. I'm left wondering exactly what kind of fruit God commanded humanity not to eat that the snake knew would make us gods and who was the first
QUOTE(IamsSon @ Dec 13 2006, 08:36 PM) [snapback]1461085[/snapback]
So, although all believers are to be painted with the brush of corruption, violence, hatred, and failure, they are to get no credit for the benevolence, successes, improvements, and advancements that they have either contributed to or accomplished all on their own?
It's easy to make anyone appear to be a failure when you hate them to begin with and then you purposefully focus on all the possible negatives and then blow them up beyond reality.
It's easy to make anyone appear to be a failure when you hate them to begin with and then you purposefully focus on all the possible negatives and then blow them up beyond reality.
Have the religious caused anymore improvements than any other group? If so, only because of numbers.
They didn't need the religion to cause the good things.
They have certainly caused more harm.
What great success in history had anything to do with religion?
QUOTE(IamsSon @ Dec 13 2006, 12:36 PM) [snapback]1461085[/snapback]
So, although all believers are to be painted with the brush of corruption, violence, hatred, and failure, they are to get no credit for the benevolence, successes, improvements, and advancements that they have either contributed to or accomplished all on their own?
It's easy to make anyone appear to be a failure when you hate them to begin with and then you purposefully focus on all the possible negatives and then blow them up beyond reality.
It's easy to make anyone appear to be a failure when you hate them to begin with and then you purposefully focus on all the possible negatives and then blow them up beyond reality.
I've asked you before and I'll ask you again, hopefully I can get a straight answer from you this time. If I kill people my whole life and accept Jesus on my death bed I will go to heaven right? But what of the African bushman who did nothing wrong and lived a balanced life in his environment but never heard of Jesus, does he not go to heaven?
Also two thousand years of some followers applying bandaids to the gaping wounds inflicted by their spiritual authorities isnt anything to brag about.
QUOTE(IamsSon @ Dec 14 2006, 08:36 AM) [snapback]1461085[/snapback]
So, although all believers are to be painted with the brush of corruption, violence, hatred, and failure, they are to get no credit for the benevolence, successes, improvements, and advancements that they have either contributed to or accomplished all on their own?
It's easy to make anyone appear to be a failure when you hate them to begin with and then you purposefully focus on all the possible negatives and then blow them up beyond reality.
It's easy to make anyone appear to be a failure when you hate them to begin with and then you purposefully focus on all the possible negatives and then blow them up beyond reality.
Pardon me for addressing your missing what I said so as to better know to whom you are speaking, if indeed your recrimination is directed to myself.
QUOTE
If they defend they are free to practice their faith, why is it they (some, not all), refuse to accept that some people are free not to practice nor accept tenets of religious faith!?
Actually, all of you are wrong. If anyone ever read the "Old Testament", you will find the actual timeline to be very specific. I refuse to look up the passage, but I know what it says. Find it yourselves, and you may learn something.In Exodus and Leviticus, both, it says "I will keep the covenant with those who follow these commandments, even unto a thousand generations." The Torah specifically means 33 years when it says the word "dor", which means generation. "Dor" implies a pretty exact period of 33 years, the time it takes for a baby to grow up, and have children of its own, old enough, biologically. to have its own children. 33 x 1000=33000. Mosheh Rebbeinu lived and died about 3000 years ago, which means the clock is still ticking. The Messiah, the real one, will be born in about another 30,000 years from now. The Torah says so, exactly. This is long before Daniel's "weeks", which is talking about something else entirely. Please wait another 30000 years for the real Messiah.
Ever consider the possibility, He was waiting for you to come along? 
QUOTE(GIDEON MAGE @ Dec 13 2006, 01:55 PM) [snapback]1461120[/snapback]
Actually, all of you are wrong. If anyone ever read the "Old Testament", you will find the actual timeline to be very specific. I refuse to look up the passage, but I know what it says. Find it yourselves, and you may learn something.In Exodus and Leviticus, both, it says "I will keep the covenant with those who follow these commandments, even unto a thousand generations." The Torah specifically means 33 years when it says the word "dor", which means generation. "Dor" implies a pretty exact period of 33 years, the time it takes for a baby to grow up, and have children of its own, old enough, biologically. to have its own children. 33 x 1000=33000. Mosheh Rebbeinu lived and died about 3000 years ago, which means the clock is still ticking. The Messiah, the real one, will be born in about another 30,000 years from now. The Torah says so, exactly. This is long before Daniel's "weeks", which is talking about something else entirely. Please wait another 30000 years for the real Messiah.
Gideon, question for you. The Jewish messiah is to have a direct royal lineage to David, given that fact do you know of any Jew living today that could prove without a doubt that they are part of that lineage by blood or even royal lineage?
Irish
QUOTE(IamsSon @ Dec 13 2006, 12:36 PM) [snapback]1461085[/snapback]
So, although all believers are to be painted with the brush of corruption, violence, hatred, and failure, they are to get no credit for the benevolence, successes, improvements, and advancements that they have either contributed to or accomplished all on their own?
It's easy to make anyone appear to be a failure when you hate them to begin with and then you purposefully focus on all the possible negatives and then blow them up beyond reality.
It's easy to make anyone appear to be a failure when you hate them to begin with and then you purposefully focus on all the possible negatives and then blow them up beyond reality.
Son, I do agree that religion has contributed some good, charitys comes to mind, its always a good idea to help each other, but most often the charity has a price, either the free food they give to the homeless is pure garbage or if you go against anyone of the 'rules' well in some religons they will not help you...Now i've seen some relgions do anything for you as long as you tithe ( which is really paying for your own rewards) I love that one tithe to reward yourself, now the stores do it its called the 'rewards' card gotta love that one....ha ha.....and do you know when I mention this they get offended hmmm....
What have i missed son??????
Ele, I'd add that some are called some are called devil worshippers, tao and buddha, hindu and athiest and aggies, and wiccan, and jewish and spiritual,some are called vegan or macrobiotics, humanitarians, advocates, peaceful and some are called nothing at all.... some don't know, some don't label and they too manage to do remarkable things that noone ever hears about, no name badge, just being good folk... regular folk just live their lives looking for ways to be a difference to benefit the whole in some way.......
QUOTE(GIDEON MAGE @ Dec 13 2006, 08:55 PM) [snapback]1461120[/snapback]
Actually, all of you are wrong. If anyone ever read the "Old Testament", you will find the actual timeline to be very specific. I refuse to look up the passage, but I know what it says. Find it yourselves, and you may learn something.In Exodus and Leviticus, both, it says "I will keep the covenant with those who follow these commandments, even unto a thousand generations." The Torah specifically means 33 years when it says the word "dor", which means generation. "Dor" implies a pretty exact period of 33 years, the time it takes for a baby to grow up, and have children of its own, old enough, biologically. to have its own children. 33 x 1000=33000. Mosheh Rebbeinu lived and died about 3000 years ago, which means the clock is still ticking. The Messiah, the real one, will be born in about another 30,000 years from now. The Torah says so, exactly. This is long before Daniel's "weeks", which is talking about something else entirely. Please wait another 30000 years for the real Messiah.
I don't feel like waiting for some other religion's massiah.. X)
_________________________
It's stilll annoyingly amusing in a bad way the way people love insisting that their faith is the one that everyone in the world should believe in and follow.
I don't care who you are, or how "lax" a religious person you are... The "God speaks to every human.. some don't listen!" and "God is waiting for everyone!" lines are getting *JUST* as annoying and condescending as those who come here and say that all who don't believe in their god is going to hell.. or that if we don't follow their brand of faith we're blind and don't know the truth. (This part isn't a direct comment to Giddy...)
QUOTE(IamsSon @ Dec 13 2006, 01:36 PM) [snapback]1461085[/snapback]
So, although all believers are to be painted with the brush of corruption, violence, hatred, and failure, they are to get no credit for the benevolence, successes, improvements, and advancements that they have either contributed to or accomplished all on their own?
Yep. Nothing wrong with your reading comprehension. It's a hatchet job. Enjoy!
QUOTE(SilverCougar @ Dec 13 2006, 01:18 PM) [snapback]1461140[/snapback]
I don't feel like waiting for some other religion's massiah.. X)
_________________________
It's stilll annoyingly amusing in a bad way the way people love insisting that their faith is the one that everyone in the world should believe in and follow.
I don't care who you are, or how "lax" a religious person you are... The "God speaks to every human.. some don't listen!" and "God is waiting for everyone!" lines are getting *JUST* as annoying and condescending as those who come here and say that all who don't believe in their god is going to hell.. or that if we don't follow their brand of faith we're blind and don't know the truth. (This part isn't a direct comment to Giddy...)
_________________________
It's stilll annoyingly amusing in a bad way the way people love insisting that their faith is the one that everyone in the world should believe in and follow.
I don't care who you are, or how "lax" a religious person you are... The "God speaks to every human.. some don't listen!" and "God is waiting for everyone!" lines are getting *JUST* as annoying and condescending as those who come here and say that all who don't believe in their god is going to hell.. or that if we don't follow their brand of faith we're blind and don't know the truth. (This part isn't a direct comment to Giddy...)
Amen,
its like saying "you should wear red shoes,"
" i don't like red shoes" i like black shoes," shrugs..
"well either you put on the red shoes or hop on that cross and let me drive nails through you, and let you die a slow drawn out heinous death....Then justify it by saying " this is hurting me a whole lot more than you....(wink wink) " then once you are dead your going to hell to roast for eternity..." And then any ancestors that are born in your lineage are cursed forever and have the same fate and there isn't piss they can do about it either..
Except worship their entire lives away.... .
Now pass me a NB to torture and fry" mu ha ha haha...
then someone threw on a important sounding title "The Bible ' and called it law. ......
QUOTE(Eleleth 4/4 @ Dec 13 2006, 02:46 PM) [snapback]1461110[/snapback]
I've asked you before and I'll ask you again, hopefully I can get a straight answer from you this time. If I kill people my whole life and accept Jesus on my death bed I will go to heaven right? But what of the African bushman who did nothing wrong and lived a balanced life in his environment but never heard of Jesus, does he not go to heaven?
Actually I answered you the first time you asked this, you may want to go back and read, here's the link to the whole post, but here is the relevant portion of it: LINK
QUOTE
So far, no one in this discussion has said that the nice little African bushman will not get in. The Bible doesn't seem to say anything about it one way or the other. As to whether someone who spends their life inflicting pain and then repents should get into Heaven or not, Jesus told a parable that may explain this:
QUOTE
1"For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire men to work in his vineyard. 2He agreed to pay them a denarius for the day and sent them into his vineyard.
3"About the third hour he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. 4He told them, 'You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.' 5So they went.
"He went out again about the sixth hour and the ninth hour and did the same thing. 6About the eleventh hour he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, 'Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?'
7" 'Because no one has hired us,' they answered.
"He said to them, 'You also go and work in my vineyard.'
8"When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, 'Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.'
9"The workers who were hired about the eleventh hour came and each received a denarius. 10So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. 11When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. 12'These men who were hired last worked only one hour,' they said, 'and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.'
13"But he answered one of them, 'Friend, I am not being unfair to you. Didn't you agree to work for a denarius? 14Take your pay and go. I want to give the man who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15Don't I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?'
Matt 20:1-15
3"About the third hour he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. 4He told them, 'You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.' 5So they went.
"He went out again about the sixth hour and the ninth hour and did the same thing. 6About the eleventh hour he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, 'Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?'
7" 'Because no one has hired us,' they answered.
"He said to them, 'You also go and work in my vineyard.'
8"When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, 'Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.'
9"The workers who were hired about the eleventh hour came and each received a denarius. 10So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. 11When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. 12'These men who were hired last worked only one hour,' they said, 'and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.'
13"But he answered one of them, 'Friend, I am not being unfair to you. Didn't you agree to work for a denarius? 14Take your pay and go. I want to give the man who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15Don't I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?'
Matt 20:1-15
QUOTE
Also two thousand years of some followers applying bandaids to the gaping wounds inflicted by their spiritual authorities isnt anything to brag about.
I am not a Christian because I am a member of a particular church or denomination. I am a Christian because I accepted Christ's sacrifice for my sins and I have a personal relationship with God, so what some pope, bishop, priest, or king did in God's name is not in any way my responsibility. I am only responsible for my actions as a Christian and for my wife's and children's actions as the head of my household. All others have to answer for themselves.
QUOTE(IamsSon @ Dec 13 2006, 02:22 PM) [snapback]1461215[/snapback]
Actually I answered you the first time you asked this, you may want to go back and read, here's the link to the whole post, but here is the relevant portion of it: LINK
Ya I know you answered me the first time, but as I said hopefully I can get a straight answer, becuase "So far, no one in this discussion has said that the nice little African bushman will not get in. The Bible doesn't seem to say anything about it one way or the other." is a load of crap and a typical maneuver, you're answer is in direct contradiction to the 'you must accept Jesus to get into heaven(no ones gets to the Father except through me)' dogma of Christianity. By saying that someone who hasnt accepted Jesus can get into heaven you are making Jesus obsolete in his role that Christianity made for him. So I gave you another chance.
From what you have said you should no doubt agree with these statements, "Accepting Jesus is not a prerequisite for admission into heaven" and "Jesus isnt the only way to salvation". You agree?
QUOTE
I am not a Christian because I am a member of a particular church or denomination. I am a Christian because I accepted Christ's sacrifice for my sins and I have a personal relationship with God, so what some pope, bishop, priest, or king did in God's name is not in any way my responsibility. I am only responsible for my actions as a Christian and for my wife's and children's actions as the head of my household. All others have to answer for themselves.
You dont follow any particular denomination of Christianity but you follow the teachings laid out by one of these denominations right? Read the Bible that one denomination put together, accept dogma created by one of these denominations. Jesus being God, the trinity and original sin were all later additions to Christianity, created by a denomination that you have nothing to do with right?
QUOTE(Eleleth 4/4 @ Dec 13 2006, 04:50 PM) [snapback]1461258[/snapback]
Ya I know you answered me the first time, but as I said hopefully I can get a straight answer, becuase "So far, no one in this discussion has said that the nice little African bushman will not get in. The Bible doesn't seem to say anything about it one way or the other." is a load of crap and a typical maneuver, you're answer is in direct contradiction to the 'you must accept Jesus to get into heaven(no ones gets to the Father except through me)' dogma of Christianity. By saying that someone who hasnt accepted Jesus can get into heaven you are making Jesus obsolete in his role that Christianity made for him. So I gave you another chance.
Whether you like it or not that is the most honest answer I can give you. I don't know how God deals with it. Maybe right before the little African bushman dies, an angel appears to him and tells him about Christ's sacrifice for his sins and he has the option to believe what he is seeing/hearing or not. Maybe, like several missionaries have reported, the little African bushman is aware that God created the world and is aware that often he does things which are not right and somehow knows this is a problem he can't resolve but he knows that if God created the world for him to live in, God provided a way to resolve his issue... and maybe that's all it takes. I don't know, neither do you, neither does anyone else for sure. But I do know God is a loving God, and I know that if you look around with clarity you KNOW deep inside that this didn't just happen
QUOTE
From what you have said you should no doubt agree with these statements, "Accepting Jesus is not a prerequisite for admission into heaven" and "Jesus isnt the only way to salvation". You agree?
QUOTE
You dont follow any particular denomination of Christianity but you follow the teachings laid out by one of these denominations right? Read the Bible that one denomination put together, accept dogma created by one of these denominations. Jesus being God, the trinity and original sin were all later additions to Christianity, created by a denomination that you have nothing to do with right?
Actually, I believe the Bible was laid out with God's guidance through man. Additionally, although I have nothing to do with NASA I still benefit from the technology that has resulted from their endeavors, but I am not responsible for whatever mistakes or outright malfeasance may have led to the deaths of the astronauts aboard Apollo 1, the Challenger, or the Discovery.
I think people have a naive conception of what a "messiah" is and what his/her role is. I've always thought of wayshowers as great teachers - like people who, for reasons relating to their innate sense of perception and outlook on life, can help the masses see and understand what was previously hidden to them, whether it be thoughts on life, love, the Universe itself.
Messiahs are not "saviors" in the sense that they purposely come to "die" for us, they come to teach and elevate us to our intended Godhood status. That's it. The only - and I mean the ONLY reason they tend to die is because the powers that be can't stand losing control and seek to either frame them or have them executed. Reality becomes legend, legend becomes myth, and a new religion is born.
And for the record, esoteric tradition says that a wayshower (messiah, Christ) comes at the beginning of every new Astrological age. We entered Aquarius in '68 or '69 and remain somewhat in Pisces even today. Whatever is going to happen, it will probably happen soon.
I just hope for his sake that he remans hidden or unaware of his role. As a whole, we are simply too fervent and fanatical in our skepticism or praise. We have the potential to be beautiful, but we lack balance.
Messiahs are not "saviors" in the sense that they purposely come to "die" for us, they come to teach and elevate us to our intended Godhood status. That's it. The only - and I mean the ONLY reason they tend to die is because the powers that be can't stand losing control and seek to either frame them or have them executed. Reality becomes legend, legend becomes myth, and a new religion is born.
And for the record, esoteric tradition says that a wayshower (messiah, Christ) comes at the beginning of every new Astrological age. We entered Aquarius in '68 or '69 and remain somewhat in Pisces even today. Whatever is going to happen, it will probably happen soon.
I just hope for his sake that he remans hidden or unaware of his role. As a whole, we are simply too fervent and fanatical in our skepticism or praise. We have the potential to be beautiful, but we lack balance.
To answer the original post, it depends on what you think "God's plan" actually is. if God's plan were to institute peace on earth and goodwill to all men, then God's plan has failed. However, if you read the Bible, that is not God's plan. God is not so much concerned about this life, but the life after. What good is it for a man to gain the whole world, yet forfeit his soul? God's plan is concerned with the life after this - eternity. This petty, likely less than a hundred years of life that we have on this floating rock is meaningless when compared to God's eternal view of forever. God never promises in his plan that this world will become a paradise. Indeed, he says exactly the opposite. As long as sin exists, as long as selfishness rules a person's heart, then there will be pain and suffering and woe.
God's plan failed? I don't think you know what the Bible says about God's plan.
God's plan failed? I don't think you know what the Bible says about God's plan.
QUOTE(IamsSon @ Dec 13 2006, 02:36 PM) [snapback]1461085[/snapback]
So, although all believers are to be painted with the brush of corruption, violence, hatred, and failure, they are to get no credit for the benevolence, successes, improvements, and advancements that they have either contributed to or accomplished all on their own?
Name some things that have been done in the name of good by religion that has not in anyway pushed forward that religion or preached that religion in the name of that good. Define good as the selfish act for nothing in return.
I know the KKK does some charity work, doesn't mean in the end of it they're still not the KKK. My point? - Doing some smidgen of good doesn't outweigh the bad things that have been done and are still being done.
For the first post, well of course it's too long. If it really was truth, it would be widely accepted and in the better countries it would be being pushed forward... Truth is it's being widely rejected with each passing day and it's failing.
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Look back in history a few thousand years since God revealed his plan for us, what do you see?
I posted this yesterday and I think it applies pretty good here as well...The Emptiness of Theology
By Richard Dawkins
A dismally unctuous editorial in the British newspaper the Independent recently asked for a reconciliation between science and "theology." It remarked that "People want to know as much as possible about their origins." I certainly hope they do, but what on earth makes one think that theology has anything useful to say on the subject?
Science is responsible for the following knowledge about our origins. We know approximately when the universe began and why it is largely hydrogen. We know why stars form and what happens in their interiors to convert hydrogen to the other elements and hence give birth to chemistry in a world of physics. We know the fundamental principles of how a world of chemistry can become biology through the arising of self-replicating molecules. We know how the principle of self-replication gives rise, through Darwinian selection, to all life, including humans.
It is science and science alone that has given us this knowledge and given it, moreover., in fascinating, over-whelming, mutually confirming detail. On every one of these questions theology has held a view that has been conclusively proved wrong. Science has eradicated smallpox, can immunize against most previously deadly viruses, can kill most previously deadly bacteria. Theology has done nothing but talk of pestilence as the wages of sin. Science can predict when a particular comet will reappear and, to the second, when the next eclipse will appear. Science has put men on the moon and hurtled reconnaissance rockets around Saturn and Jupiter. Science can tell you the age of a particular fossil and that the Turin Shroud is a medieval fake. Science knows the precise DNA instructions of several viruses and will, in the lifetime of many present readers, do the same for the human genome.
What has theology ever said that is of the smallest use to anybody? When has theology ever said anything that is demonstrably true and is not obvious? I have listened to theologians, read them, debated against them. I have never heard any of them ever say anything of the smallest use, anything that was not either platitudinously obvious or downright false. If all the achievements of scientists were wiped out tomorrow, there would be no doctors but witch doctors, no transport faster than horses, no computers, no printed books, no agriculture beyond subsistence peasant farming. If all the achievements of theologians were wiped out tomorrow, would anyone notice the smallest difference? Even the bad achievements of scientists, the bombs, and sonar-guided whaling vessels work! The achievements of theologians don't do anything, don't affect anything, don't mean anything. What makes anyone think that "theology" is a subject at all?
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Religious truth is bunk.
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what do you expect to see if these same failures lead us spiritually?
Hopefully the backward ways of religion will be shed and rational thought will become a top dog. A world ruled under religion for a 'success' for that religion would result in a lot of back peddling in the advancement of mankind. I do expect though that there will still be conflict in the future, regardless of who's top dog, though if religion is still top dog in the world there would be more conflict in the future yet, unless that said religion took over the world and is repressing everybody but that is even worse than conflict to me.
God's plan has and will lead us to Armageddon. Just go with it. Do not try to fight it.
QUOTE(NiCkC818 @ Dec 13 2006, 09:38 PM) [snapback]1461614[/snapback]
God's plan has and will lead us to Armageddon. Just go with it. Do not try to fight it.
It is not God who's leading us into the end of the world. It's those who think they're acting out his will.
QUOTE(MadMachine @ Dec 13 2006, 10:07 PM) [snapback]1461646[/snapback]
It is not God who's leading us into the end of the world. It's those who think they're acting out his will.
No, it is part of God's plan.
QUOTE(IamsSon @ Dec 13 2006, 10:09 PM) [snapback]1461650[/snapback]
No, it is part of God's plan.
According to your bible, which you will follow. You'd support any decision by our government which would seem to fulfill, or help fulfill a prophecy, wouldn't you?
QUOTE(MadMachine @ Dec 13 2006, 10:11 PM) [snapback]1461651[/snapback]
According to your bible, which you will follow. You'd support any decision by our government which would seem to fulfill, or help fulfill a prophecy, wouldn't you?
See, now you're making a wild assumption there.
I believe that the Tribulation is part of God's plan, therefore inevitable. Whatever we do, is what we're supposed to do to bring it about. But since I believe God is in charge I don't feel I have to do anything to make it happen. My job is to share His love not to make Armageddon happen.
QUOTE(IamsSon @ Dec 13 2006, 10:16 PM) [snapback]1461656[/snapback]
See, now you're making a wild assumption there.
I believe that the Tribulation is part of God's plan, therefore inevitable. Whatever we do, is what we're supposed to do to bring it about. But since I believe God is in charge I don't feel I have to do anything to make it happen. My job is to share His love not to make Armageddon happen.
I believe that the Tribulation is part of God's plan, therefore inevitable. Whatever we do, is what we're supposed to do to bring it about. But since I believe God is in charge I don't feel I have to do anything to make it happen. My job is to share His love not to make Armageddon happen.
I don't think it was such a wild assumption. If it seems to help accomplish god's ultimate plan to you, no matter how bloody and avoidable (by human means,) you wouldn't be against it. That's what I gather, correct me if I'm wrong.
Please say I'm wrong. I'd like to believe you would be against the world coming to a biblical end, if it was avoidable. (It's always avoidable, if it's a prophecy consciously carried out by believers in high places...)
QUOTE(MadMachine @ Dec 13 2006, 08:27 PM) [snapback]1461670[/snapback]
I don't think it was such a wild assumption. If it seems to help accomplish god's ultimate plan to you, no matter how bloody and avoidable (by human means,) you wouldn't be against it. That's what I gather, correct me if I'm wrong.
Please say I'm wrong. I'd like to believe you would be against the world coming to a biblical end, if it was avoidable. (It's always avoidable, if it's a prophecy consciously carried out by believers in high places...)
Please say I'm wrong. I'd like to believe you would be against the world coming to a biblical end, if it was avoidable. (It's always avoidable, if it's a prophecy consciously carried out by believers in high places...)
MM the conditions of the world are as bad as they can get, it can't possibly get any worse, the whole eco system is in shambles, glaciers are melting, countyrs are killing each other, racism is rampant, the food is poisoned the water is contaminated, the weather patterns are awry, animals are extinct or dying, humans are disease ridden and ther is no cure for anything...I mean its a bad as I cvould see it getting and has been this way for quite soem time...the key is to take a section and find a solution be peace where you can, end division, raise awareness on the living system we call home, we need team players now not more gloom and doom... fear only cripples and renders one ineffective and not of much help.....It helps too find a way to be the solution not add to the problem..i hope this helps its said in that vein...
QUOTE(IamsSon @ Dec 13 2006, 11:16 PM) [snapback]1461656[/snapback]
See, now you're making a wild assumption there.
I believe that the Tribulation is part of God's plan, therefore inevitable. Whatever we do, is what we're supposed to do to bring it about. But since I believe God is in charge I don't feel I have to do anything to make it happen. My job is to share His love not to make Armageddon happen.
I believe that the Tribulation is part of God's plan, therefore inevitable. Whatever we do, is what we're supposed to do to bring it about. But since I believe God is in charge I don't feel I have to do anything to make it happen. My job is to share His love not to make Armageddon happen.
It's not too wild. Predictions may not actually tell the future but cause them. For example if there was a prophecy that said "A pink bird will fly in the sky and three days after the world would end" after someone saw that pink bird they would stop living there life because they knew the world was going to end. If everybody stopped living their normal lifes and acted like the world was ending their would be hysteria and chaos wich would end up cause the end of the world. But if it wasn't for that predicition everyone would have saw the pink bird and when on with their lives and the hysteria and chaos would never come.
Of course this example doesn't fit perfectly with real predictions and events but you get the picture.
Armegedon...the war to end all wars. Heaven v.s. Hell, with the souls of man in the balance. Our fate has already bin chosen by the gods it seems...
I personally reject your god's plans for us. The fate of man should be in the hands of man. When the End of Days comes, if it comes, I won't be on God's side or Satan's side. I will fight for the continuation of Earth and it's inhabitants. No god gets to decide my fate.
Oh and Earth is just too dam cute to let go...its all round with its green and blue.
Good posts, both Sheri and Cadetak.
I understand that a drastic difference in hopes for the future isn't something to seperate people from eachother, but I'm wary of those who have destructive hopes. "Gloom and Doom"-sayers, if you will. Their ideas are happy for them, because they (generally) believe they go to a better place when they die. But their ideas are destructive to the earth and people who don't share their beliefs. Maybe not on a common person to person scale, but with people who anticipate so strongly the biblical "End Times" in high places of our government, I worry.
Cadetak: You so often manage to make a simple, non-argumentative post, that helps a great deal to put a point across. I'm proud of you.
I understand that a drastic difference in hopes for the future isn't something to seperate people from eachother, but I'm wary of those who have destructive hopes. "Gloom and Doom"-sayers, if you will. Their ideas are happy for them, because they (generally) believe they go to a better place when they die. But their ideas are destructive to the earth and people who don't share their beliefs. Maybe not on a common person to person scale, but with people who anticipate so strongly the biblical "End Times" in high places of our government, I worry.
Cadetak: You so often manage to make a simple, non-argumentative post, that helps a great deal to put a point across. I'm proud of you.
Thanks I try.
QUOTE(MadMachine @ Dec 13 2006, 10:27 PM) [snapback]1461670[/snapback]
I don't think it was such a wild assumption. If it seems to help accomplish god's ultimate plan to you, no matter how bloody and avoidable (by human means,) you wouldn't be against it. That's what I gather, correct me if I'm wrong.
Please say I'm wrong. I'd like to believe you would be against the world coming to a biblical end, if it was avoidable. (It's always avoidable, if it's a prophecy consciously carried out by believers in high places...)
Please say I'm wrong. I'd like to believe you would be against the world coming to a biblical end, if it was avoidable. (It's always avoidable, if it's a prophecy consciously carried out by believers in high places...)
You are WAY wrong Mad. I am not excited about the way the Tribulation will play out. I am doing my best to insure that as few people as possible actually go through it (I'm a pre-tribulationist) by sharing God's love with people and praying that they will see how much God loves them.
There is a HUGE difference between understanding what will happen and actively doing or supporting things to make it happen. I do not believe it's avoidable. God said it will happen, and He knows what will happen, so it will happen.
I am in no way excited about what will happen.
QUOTE(IamsSon @ Dec 13 2006, 10:58 PM) [snapback]1461711[/snapback]
You are WAY wrong Mad. I am not excited about the way the Tribulation will play out. I am doing my best to insure that as few people as possible actually go through it (I'm a pre-tribulationist) by sharing God's love with people and praying that they will see how much God loves them.
There is a HUGE difference between understanding what will happen and actively doing or supporting things to make it happen. I do not believe it's avoidable. God said it will happen, and He knows what will happen, so it will happen.
I am in no way excited about what will happen.
There is a HUGE difference between understanding what will happen and actively doing or supporting things to make it happen. I do not believe it's avoidable. God said it will happen, and He knows what will happen, so it will happen.
I am in no way excited about what will happen.
The problem is, only those who believe the bible is the word of god, actually believe that "god said it will happen."
Converting people won't help them in any way, if death just so happens to be the end of a person's existence, as many (and myself) believe.
A way to really help, would be to help prevent people in our government from making avoidable decisions which could pave a bloody path to the fulfilment of biblical prophecies.
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Oh and Earth is just too dam cute to let go...its all round with its green and blue. wub.gif
Official Forum Thread Winner! LOL
QUOTE(MadMachine @ Dec 13 2006, 08:50 PM) [snapback]1461700[/snapback]
Good posts, both Sheri and Cadetak.
I understand that a drastic difference in hopes for the future isn't something to seperate people from eachother, but I'm wary of those who have destructive hopes. "Gloom and Doom"-sayers, if you will. Their ideas are happy for them, because they (generally) believe they go to a better place when they die. But their ideas are destructive to the earth and people who don't share their beliefs. Maybe not on a common person to person scale, but with people who anticipate so strongly the biblical "End Times" in high places of our government, I worry.
Cadetak: You so often manage to make a simple, non-argumentative post, that helps a great deal to put a point across. I'm proud of you.
I understand that a drastic difference in hopes for the future isn't something to seperate people from eachother, but I'm wary of those who have destructive hopes. "Gloom and Doom"-sayers, if you will. Their ideas are happy for them, because they (generally) believe they go to a better place when they die. But their ideas are destructive to the earth and people who don't share their beliefs. Maybe not on a common person to person scale, but with people who anticipate so strongly the biblical "End Times" in high places of our government, I worry.
Cadetak: You so often manage to make a simple, non-argumentative post, that helps a great deal to put a point across. I'm proud of you.
MM you do touch on a valid point thoughts are creative negative ones too and true if enough people bleive in this its called the collective consiousness and it ocntributes to the whole jsut as we are seeing , the religons have created exactly what they have wanted too and call it 'gods plan' gods will... I think its time to wake up as a collective and see that doing nothing humouring the naysayers doing nothing is a choice too....One person can do alot thats a myth that one can't , one person brought awarenss to the whole trans fat thing now its being banned in New yoork and California, one state created the clean air act, there is so much to hope for and so much that can be done religon jsut wants to be right even if it destroys everyone...oy vey... , to infer otherwise is another way of saying I don't care and I'm not responsible for the world I live in...MM alot of good is hppenening A
alot, despite the flat out denial by the goverment on global warming a few states have stepped up jsut like theydid for the clean air act, many countyrs are doing stuff in spite of the 'gov't you too can be a part of the growth Imagine what we don't hear about ..it would surprise you ..don't give up we need you, i talk on global warming and the food issues those are my chosen ways to be part of the change you can do anything so many are its really amazing to be honest with you and inspiring...the whole home school movement started from a lady that saw a better way, ...martin Luther started the civil rights movement..the human is a mountain of potential don't ever let anyone tell you otherwise.....
QUOTE(MadMachine @ Dec 13 2006, 09:03 PM) [snapback]1461721[/snapback]
The problem is, only those who believe the bible is the word of god, actually believe that "god said it will happen."
Converting people won't help them in any way, if death just so happens to be the end of a person's existence, as many (and myself) believe.
A way to really help, would be to help prevent people in our government from making avoidable decisions which could pave a bloody path to the fulfilment of biblical prophecies.
Converting people won't help them in any way, if death just so happens to be the end of a person's existence, as many (and myself) believe.
A way to really help, would be to help prevent people in our government from making avoidable decisions which could pave a bloody path to the fulfilment of biblical prophecies.
there you go use your voice its a good one MM...
I have to admit when I read the thread title other thoughts came to mind...
The world may be in bad shape now but it is far from over. We have the technology and knowledge to make the Earth better...if the Apocalypse does come we should atleast have the common manners to leave the Earth in the same condition in which we came into it...because it would be rude if we didn't. When God comes and gets me I'll tell him "atleast let me tidy up a bit!".
Humans have the potential to make the planet and society better. We have the resources and power to end world hunger and poverty. We have the potential to unlock the mysteries of the universe.
We even have the potential to create perfection and immortaliliy here on earth. We don't need any gods.
There are more good people in this world then bad, but the bad have the control. You can't hope to save the world when the good people give up. One man can't change the world. It takes everybody to do it. One man can only inspire and set a foundation for the rest.
The truth is though that it is easier to give up and accept then it is to fight and change. People won't attempt to change the world until its far too late. People need a dramatic event to shake them into doing something.
Have faith in the human race...we have defied the gods on numerous occasions and in doing so we have bettered ourselves, whether it be through our life saving technologies or our knowledge from doing it.
Humans have the potential to make the planet and society better. We have the resources and power to end world hunger and poverty. We have the potential to unlock the mysteries of the universe.
We even have the potential to create perfection and immortaliliy here on earth. We don't need any gods.
There are more good people in this world then bad, but the bad have the control. You can't hope to save the world when the good people give up. One man can't change the world. It takes everybody to do it. One man can only inspire and set a foundation for the rest.
The truth is though that it is easier to give up and accept then it is to fight and change. People won't attempt to change the world until its far too late. People need a dramatic event to shake them into doing something.
Have faith in the human race...we have defied the gods on numerous occasions and in doing so we have bettered ourselves, whether it be through our life saving technologies or our knowledge from doing it.
QUOTE(Paranoid Android @ Dec 13 2006, 10:03 PM) [snapback]1461575[/snapback]
To answer the original post, it depends on what you think "God's plan" actually is. if God's plan were to institute peace on earth and goodwill to all men, then God's plan has failed. However, if you read the Bible, that is not God's plan. God is not so much concerned about this life, but the life after. What good is it for a man to gain the whole world, yet forfeit his soul? God's plan is concerned with the life after this - eternity. This petty, likely less than a hundred years of life that we have on this floating rock is meaningless when compared to God's eternal view of forever. God never promises in his plan that this world will become a paradise. Indeed, he says exactly the opposite. As long as sin exists, as long as selfishness rules a person's heart, then there will be pain and suffering and woe.
God's plan failed? I don't think you know what the Bible says about God's plan.
God's plan failed? I don't think you know what the Bible says about God's plan.
Then why go to the bother of creating >>THIS<< world, if it doesn't matter? Why not eliminate this phase of existance completely? Think on this: If your god is so concerned about sin and selfishness, why create an environment in which it would thrive?
"god doesn't want robots. he wants people to come to him freely"
That is the standard answer, but it continues to befuddle the senses and the sensible. God creates a world. God creates a species with curiosity. God puts this creature in a special environment, with one proviso: don't touch >this<. The creature responds, driven by the curiousness that it was imbued with, and is then punished.
Generations of 'tainted' creatures are born, live, and die until.........
God, unable to correct his prior judgement of the species (for some vague cosmological reason usually involving the creator of the law to be incapable of 'rewriting' it) sends a part of himself to the earthly plane to be born, grow up and suffer a horrible death, only to be reborn, anew. This bloody sacrifice of itself, somehow assuages god to now permit the creatures to be allowed salvation, but only by acknowledging the sacrifice that god made of himself to pay a debt that god levied against the creatures in the first place. And then, promises its followers that it will one day return to right the wrongs of the world and usher in a heavenly kingdom on earth.
QUOTE(Cadetak47 @ Dec 13 2006, 09:32 PM) [snapback]1461758[/snapback]
The world may be in bad shape now but it is far from over. We have the technology and knowledge to make the Earth better...if the Apocalypse does come we should atleast have the common manners to leave the Earth in the same condition in which we came into it...because it would be rude if we didn't. When God comes and gets me I'll tell him "atleast let me tidy up a bit!".
Humans have the potential to make the planet and society better. We have the resources and power to end world hunger and poverty. We have the potential to unlock the mysteries of the universe.
We even have the potential to create perfection and immortaliliy here on earth. We don't need any gods.
There are more good people in this world then bad, but the bad have the control. You can't hope to save the world when the good people give up. One man can't change the world. It takes everybody to do it. One man can only inspire and set a foundation for the rest.
The truth is though that it is easier to give up and accept then it is to fight and change. People won't attempt to change the world until its far too late. People need a dramatic event to shake them into doing something.
Have faith in the human race...we have defied the gods on numerous occasions and in doing so we have bettered ourselves, whether it be through our life saving technologies or our knowledge from doing it.
Humans have the potential to make the planet and society better. We have the resources and power to end world hunger and poverty. We have the potential to unlock the mysteries of the universe.
We even have the potential to create perfection and immortaliliy here on earth. We don't need any gods.
There are more good people in this world then bad, but the bad have the control. You can't hope to save the world when the good people give up. One man can't change the world. It takes everybody to do it. One man can only inspire and set a foundation for the rest.
The truth is though that it is easier to give up and accept then it is to fight and change. People won't attempt to change the world until its far too late. People need a dramatic event to shake them into doing something.
Have faith in the human race...we have defied the gods on numerous occasions and in doing so we have bettered ourselves, whether it be through our life saving technologies or our knowledge from doing it.
C. one person can do alot imagine if everyone did something???the world would be at peace tommorrow if each person just decided to be peaceful to everyone they meet, ther would be peace simple as that..... its not rocket science....
yes we have the technology we jsut don't have the will many don't many are hopeless, we have hurt ourselves by insisting on holding on to beleifs that no longer serve us, we have to let go of our most cherished beliefs many would rahter die and they will, but for those who care there is plenty to do...its not about waht anyone else is doing its about what you do focus on that and the rest will change or not don't expect and don't need otherwise you will end up disappointed jsut do it becaseu it s the right hting to do........ can you think of a better way to spend your time a more wotrth while use of a life to actually wake up everyday overwhelemed by the possibility of a new day, of a new tommorow????..Can it get any better than this?????Steven hawkings said this in an interview when they asked him what he thought about life so far ( for those who don't know he is a theoritical phycist who is confined to a wheel cahir with MS and speaks through a microphone and is one of the most intellingent humans on the planet and quite the ladies man to boot..if this guy can see hope in such circumstances imagine what the avergae person can do??????
QUOTE(Supra Sheri @ Dec 14 2006, 12:45 AM) [snapback]1461768[/snapback]
C. one person can do alot imagine if everyone did something???the world would be at peace tommorrow if each person just decided to be peaceful to everyone they meet, ther would be peace simple as that..... its not rocket science....
yes we have the technology we jsut don't have the will many don't many are hopeless, we have hurt ourselves by insisting on holding on to beleifs that no longer serve us, we have to let go of our most cherished beliefs many would rahter die and they will, but for those who care there is plenty to do...its not about waht anyone else is doing its about what you do focus on that and the rest will change or not don't expect and don't need otherwise you will end up disappointed jsut do it becaseu it s the right hting to do........ can you think of a better way to spend your time a more wotrth while use of a life to actually wake up everyday overwhelemed by the possibility of a new day, of a new tommorow????..Can it get any better than this?????Steven hawkings said this in an interview when they asked him what he thought about life so far ( for those who don't know he is a theoritical phycist who is confined to a wheel cahir with MS and speaks through a microphone and is one of the most intellingent humans on the planet and quite the ladies man to boot..if this guy can see hope in such circumstances imagine what the avergae person can do??????
yes we have the technology we jsut don't have the will many don't many are hopeless, we have hurt ourselves by insisting on holding on to beleifs that no longer serve us, we have to let go of our most cherished beliefs many would rahter die and they will, but for those who care there is plenty to do...its not about waht anyone else is doing its about what you do focus on that and the rest will change or not don't expect and don't need otherwise you will end up disappointed jsut do it becaseu it s the right hting to do........ can you think of a better way to spend your time a more wotrth while use of a life to actually wake up everyday overwhelemed by the possibility of a new day, of a new tommorow????..Can it get any better than this?????Steven hawkings said this in an interview when they asked him what he thought about life so far ( for those who don't know he is a theoritical phycist who is confined to a wheel cahir with MS and speaks through a microphone and is one of the most intellingent humans on the planet and quite the ladies man to boot..if this guy can see hope in such circumstances imagine what the avergae person can do??????
I concur, we are saying the same thing...right?
Quote Time!
"It's not who I am underneath, but what I do that defines me"-Batman, Batman Begins.
"Those who stare at the past have their backs turned to the future."-Unknown.
"Live long and prosper"-Spock, Star Trek.
"Do or do not, there is no try" Yoda, Star Wars.
QUOTE(Cadetak47 @ Dec 13 2006, 10:13 PM) [snapback]1461790[/snapback]
I concur, we are saying the same thing...right?
Quote Time!
"It's not who I am underneath, but what I do that defines me"-Batman, Batman Begins.
"Those who stare at the past have their backs turned to the future."-Unknown.
"Live long and prosper"-Spock, Star Trek.
"Do or do not, there is no try" Yoda, Star Wars.
Quote Time!
"It's not who I am underneath, but what I do that defines me"-Batman, Batman Begins.
"Those who stare at the past have their backs turned to the future."-Unknown.
"Live long and prosper"-Spock, Star Trek.
"Do or do not, there is no try" Yoda, Star Wars.
yes we speak the same lingo lol..thanks for sharing these quotes..... there is only what we do and what we fail to do,
Two thirds of gOd is Go.......
Be the first domino.....
Every great idea began with why not........
If not us then who????
13 years ago when i left a very bad marriage and by all appearances, by any sane persons standards my life was a mess faliing apart, but the truth was for the first time, in my life everything was falling together.....
Its in the chaos that the perfection is found.......
QUOTE(IamsSon @ Dec 13 2006, 03:23 PM) [snapback]1461318[/snapback]
Whether you like it or not that is the most honest answer I can give you. I don't know how God deals with it. Maybe right before the little African bushman dies, an angel appears to him and tells him about Christ's sacrifice for his sins and he has the option to believe what he is seeing/hearing or not. Maybe, like several missionaries have reported, the little African bushman is aware that God created the world and is aware that often he does things which are not right and somehow knows this is a problem he can't resolve but he knows that if God created the world for him to live in, God provided a way to resolve his issue... and maybe that's all it takes. I don't know, neither do you, neither does anyone else for sure. But I do know God is a loving God, and I know that if you look around with clarity you KNOW deep inside that this didn't just happen
As you can see from my reply above, I am not saying anything like this at all! What I am saying is that we have no way of knowing how the little African bushman gets to hear about Christ.
As you can see from my reply above, I am not saying anything like this at all! What I am saying is that we have no way of knowing how the little African bushman gets to hear about Christ.
Christianitys role is to spread the world of its Christ and the salvation he offers by accepting his sacrifice, if you dont accept his sacrifice you remain a sinner and cannot get to the Father. So if you have never heard of Jesus or his sacrifice you cannot be saved and cannot get to the Father and go to Hell, second death, speration from God, etc. You may not like to admit it but as the set rules of salvation go these people cannot enter Heaven and are damned from the beginning all because they havent heard of some guy, one frikkin guy who supposedly spoke for God, one God for all of humanity who picks one tribe and one guy to speak for him. It doesnt make sense until its considered that people with their own plans made up this path for salvation, people looking for converts, people looking to grow in influence, people that were trying to sell their new concept of God and got rich and powerful from doing it. Their concept doesnt need to have all the answers because only one important point needed to be conveyed to the people, join us or die, a spiritual death, an eternal torturous death. Its plain and easy to see that those making up this plan for salvation were frauds, their plan hits a snag right from the beginning so they used the threat of eternal death to sway opinion. A real god doesnt need to make excuses but God is full of them.
Not only that but these African bushman have existed as they are for tens of thosands of years with their own gods that have existed for far longer than this tribal God came around. God had all the time he needed to tell the bushman of his existence and his sacrifice for their salvation but he didnt, an all-powerful God could have done that in an instant, that is if time is even a factor for him. They didnt know of this God or his Son, they didnt need his sacrifice because they had never heard of original sin. Original sin doesnt exist to them so they dont need God, they have their own gods. Would you take them seriously if they told you what their gods expected of you or would you find it interesting but unnecessary? There is one difference however and that is that their beliefs have many similarities to other shamanic cultures beliefs in the world that they had never spoken to or heard of, in the Amazon, Asia, Australia and even in Europe when Shamanism was still around there. It seems their gods have done a better job of spreading the word than God has done, God requires his followers to travel, spread the word and convert people sometimes peacefully sometimes violently, the Shamanic gods dont need that they already existed in the minds of Amazonians, Asians, Europeans and Aboriginals and had for tens of thousands of years.
You know, for a guy who believes in a dude wearing a red suit and titanium horns, sometimes you make a lot of sense. 
QUOTE(Paranoid Android @ Dec 13 2006, 07:03 PM) [snapback]1461575[/snapback]
To answer the original post, it depends on what you think "God's plan" actually is. if God's plan were to institute peace on earth and goodwill to all men, then God's plan has failed. However, if you read the Bible, that is not God's plan. God is not so much concerned about this life, but the life after. What good is it for a man to gain the whole world, yet forfeit his soul? God's plan is concerned with the life after this - eternity. This petty, likely less than a hundred years of life that we have on this floating rock is meaningless when compared to God's eternal view of forever. God never promises in his plan that this world will become a paradise. Indeed, he says exactly the opposite. As long as sin exists, as long as selfishness rules a person's heart, then there will be pain and suffering and woe.
God's plan failed? I don't think you know what the Bible says about God's plan.
God's plan failed? I don't think you know what the Bible says about God's plan.
If Jesus is God and said love your neighbor, love your enemy and turn the other cheek what the heck do you think he was trying to tell people? Go ahead and crap on the world, fight wars under my name? His message fell on deaf ears and in its place this plan for salvation took center stage. I would say his plan failed.
But I will take what you have said, agree that it is his plan and see how it holds up. God isnt concerned about this life but the life after? God needs to be slapped in my opinion because I would say that a good state of being in this life is conducive to man succeeding in God's plan for the next life. How will our souls grow if we live in a garbage dump? If God really wanted to win this battle of souls he would see that our enivornment here is very important. Why would Jesus preach non-violence if God doesnt care about this life? Why would anything we do here matter if God isnt concerned with our life here? How can our short time here have any relevance to the afterlife if God isnt concerned with this "rock"? Well I guess he is only concerned with one thing right, accepting one dude Jesus that as I've said some have never heard of. I'm thinking that God lacks creativity if this is his divine plan, who cares what happens in the world, crap on it age after age for all I care just accept Jesus and you win YAY! That would have to be the most boring divine board game I have ever heard of and I'm sure many Earth/nature based beliefs would love to puke all over this concept. Is it any wonder that the Earth is such a dump right now, with this being God's plan?
QUOTE(Eleleth 4/4 @ Dec 14 2006, 11:04 AM) [snapback]1462365[/snapback]
If Jesus is God and said love your neighbor, love your enemy and turn the other cheek what the heck do you think he was trying to tell people? Go ahead and crap on the world, fight wars under my name? His message fell on deaf ears and in its place this plan for salvation took center stage. I would say his plan failed.
But I will take what you have said, agree that it is his plan and see how it holds up. God isnt concerned about this life but the life after? God needs to be slapped in my opinion because I would say that a good state of being in this life is conducive to man succeeding in God's plan for the next life. How will our souls grow if we live in a garbage dump? If God really wanted to win this battle of souls he would see that our enivornment here is very important. Why would Jesus preach non-violence if God doesnt care about this life? Why would anything we do here matter if God isnt concerned with our life here? How can our short time here have any relevance to the afterlife if God isnt concerned with this "rock"? Well I guess he is only concerned with one thing right, accepting one dude Jesus that as I've said some have never heard of. I'm thinking that God lacks creativity if this is his divine plan, who cares what happens in the world, crap on it age after age for all I care just accept Jesus and you win YAY! That would have to be the most boring divine board game I have ever heard of and I'm sure many Earth/nature based beliefs would love to puke all over this concept. Is it any wonder that the Earth is such a dump right now, with this being God's plan?
But I will take what you have said, agree that it is his plan and see how it holds up. God isnt concerned about this life but the life after? God needs to be slapped in my opinion because I would say that a good state of being in this life is conducive to man succeeding in God's plan for the next life. How will our souls grow if we live in a garbage dump? If God really wanted to win this battle of souls he would see that our enivornment here is very important. Why would Jesus preach non-violence if God doesnt care about this life? Why would anything we do here matter if God isnt concerned with our life here? How can our short time here have any relevance to the afterlife if God isnt concerned with this "rock"? Well I guess he is only concerned with one thing right, accepting one dude Jesus that as I've said some have never heard of. I'm thinking that God lacks creativity if this is his divine plan, who cares what happens in the world, crap on it age after age for all I care just accept Jesus and you win YAY! That would have to be the most boring divine board game I have ever heard of and I'm sure many Earth/nature based beliefs would love to puke all over this concept. Is it any wonder that the Earth is such a dump right now, with this being God's plan?
ele, you have some pivitol points my friend, and great inquirys....you get me thinking every post i read by you...
do you think a fear based diety allows for alot of discrepencies alot of rope, one feels worthless as it is challenging this 'energy' dude":thing' may not be a high priority???? I think when we feel we are sinful anyways and are very consumed with saving our souls so our name will be called out for the paradise, not much else is gonna matter, just thinking out loud, do you think, the plan may be focused on 'self preservation, 'self salvation, you can't be to worried about any one else.......i wonder if relgion creates self absorbed people?????
Well, in a sense, god is slapped by those that don't believe in him/her/it. It's slapped when people dare to question the contrary nature of such a being as is described in texts some call holy. When the world over believers pray for relief from their suffering and awaken each and every day after, in the same pit of despair. It's slapped because of all the woes across this globe, when the majority population, we're led to believe, do believe in some supreme being that clearly is an absentee landlord. And the slap back is when it's all blamed by that imbecilic excuse that all of it is due to our responsibility, for that exercise of free will. How patently insane, to resort to an enabler model , to excuse the failure of what some believe is a benevolent father , to allow his children to destroy themselves, despite their begging on their knee's to be saved. Especially when jesus said one had but to ask and it would be granted unto them.
I imagine those dying of AIDS/HIV ask quite often and with a whole heart. I imagine those starving to death, watching vultures prey upon the dead around them, ask with the last of their breath. I imagine the wife being beaten by her spouse yet again, begs for that assault to stop and god to turn his heart, after she's been counseled by her priest to work it out because divorce is a sin in that gods eyes. I imagine god is a sadist and I look at the horror in this world and realize there is just cause to believe it so. Holding more faith in the proof of that, in the face of all that suffering that prays a myth shall save anyone, than anything that has proven it's self of the nature to care to save all that beseech something to hear and do what it's promised in all those holy texts that afford empty promises, and instead expect peoples spirits to be sated with that other promise that they shall know paradise, after their screaming stops.
I imagine those dying of AIDS/HIV ask quite often and with a whole heart. I imagine those starving to death, watching vultures prey upon the dead around them, ask with the last of their breath. I imagine the wife being beaten by her spouse yet again, begs for that assault to stop and god to turn his heart, after she's been counseled by her priest to work it out because divorce is a sin in that gods eyes. I imagine god is a sadist and I look at the horror in this world and realize there is just cause to believe it so. Holding more faith in the proof of that, in the face of all that suffering that prays a myth shall save anyone, than anything that has proven it's self of the nature to care to save all that beseech something to hear and do what it's promised in all those holy texts that afford empty promises, and instead expect peoples spirits to be sated with that other promise that they shall know paradise, after their screaming stops.
QUOTE
Gideon, question for you. The Jewish messiah is to have a direct royal lineage to David, given that fact do you know of any Jew living today that could prove without a doubt that they are part of that lineage by blood or even royal lineage?
Actually, there are hundreds of thousands of them, not even counting Ethiopians.QUOTE
I don't feel like waiting for some other religion's massiah.
It's stilll annoyingly amusing in a bad way the way people love insisting that their faith is the one that everyone in the world should believe in and follow.
I was answering the original question based on the source. I don't follow Judiasm or Xianity.
QUOTE(GoddessWhispers @ Dec 14 2006, 11:25 AM) [snapback]1462388[/snapback]
Well, in a sense, god is slapped by those that don't believe in him/her/it. It's slapped when people dare to question the contrary nature of such a being as is described in texts some call holy. When the world over believers pray for relief from their suffering and awaken each and every day after, in the same pit of despair. It's slapped because of all the woes across this globe, when the majority population, we're led to believe, do believe in some supreme being that clearly is an absentee landlord. And the slap back is when it's all blamed by that imbecilic excuse that all of it is due to our responsibility, for that exercise of free will. How patently insane, to resort to an enabler model , to excuse the failure of what some believe is a benevolent father , to allow his children to destroy themselves, despite their begging on their knee's to be saved. Especially when jesus said one had but to ask and it would be granted unto them.
I imagine those dying of AIDS/HIV ask quite often and with a whole heart. I imagine those starving to death, watching vultures prey upon the dead around them, ask with the last of their breath. I imagine the wife being beaten by her spouse yet again, begs for that assault to stop and god to turn his heart, after she's been counseled by her priest to work it out because divorce is a sin in that gods eyes. I imagine god is a sadist and I look at the horror in this world and realize there is just cause to believe it so. Holding more faith in the proof of that, in the face of all that suffering that prays a myth shall save anyone, than anything that has proven it's self of the nature to care to save all that beseech something to hear and do what it's promised in all those holy texts that afford empty promises, and instead expect peoples spirits to be sated with that other promise that they shall know paradise, after their screaming stops.
I imagine those dying of AIDS/HIV ask quite often and with a whole heart. I imagine those starving to death, watching vultures prey upon the dead around them, ask with the last of their breath. I imagine the wife being beaten by her spouse yet again, begs for that assault to stop and god to turn his heart, after she's been counseled by her priest to work it out because divorce is a sin in that gods eyes. I imagine god is a sadist and I look at the horror in this world and realize there is just cause to believe it so. Holding more faith in the proof of that, in the face of all that suffering that prays a myth shall save anyone, than anything that has proven it's self of the nature to care to save all that beseech something to hear and do what it's promised in all those holy texts that afford empty promises, and instead expect peoples spirits to be sated with that other promise that they shall know paradise, after their screaming stops.
wow GW very well said, so it seem the relgionous constructs aren't fullfilling anything and coping out to an abstraction, noone knows what comes after death not really, its wishful thinking for any thought system on the matter....
yet on it goes none the wiser...Faith is it the greatest blue sky going.....Death has been made out to be so terrifying , you'd be surprised at how people get freaked out at the mention of it as if its a racial slur, i have only one friend who actually we sit and ponder death and both of us actually think its part of the process no big deal.....yet lives are lived in great concern for this moment a moment that is natural without it there would be no life lol..........
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