Reading through some of the posts on here I realized that they reminded me of why I became a non believer.

When you read the bible or the Qu'ran, as I have both, you will inevitably get to a passage that doesn't make sense. Either a glitch of fact, or logic, or morality.

At that point it is obvious that there is a mistake.

If these texts are Divine, then that would be the only reason to take them as the word of God. A bunch of swell pious witnesses can still make mistakes. Only God would be flawless. When I see even ONE flaw it tells me that its not Divinely inspired. Which means it was written by man. Since the books both say they are the word of God, then either God is making mistakes or the person who wrote it is lying.

Since there are no corresponding texts I can't be sure what other flaws there may be in the text that I am unaware of.

I doubt. Once I doubt I don't believe.

The end.

It's your life and as such you are entitled to live and believe as you see fit. As has been said on these forums before, no one knows. And while that may be a statement proffered by believers so as to denigrate the non among us, it works both ways. No one knows if there is or is not a god. However what we do know for an absolute irrefutable fact is that every text that has ever been written to assure us there is, is written by people just like us. Were it not for that people would have no idea of god. And while there are many that say they know god exists because of their experiences , it can be said their experiences support what they've been told already about what a god is and what that means as a deific identity. It's not proof there is a god, it's proof to them that what they've heard describes what god means, is supported by that occurrence. Sort of like a cyclical enabler model, if you will.

So, I admire your sharing your thoughts here. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, based on your personal experiences and observations. And those that claim non-believers are wrong, are really saying they don't understand why there are other people that dare not to think like they do. In effect, exampling an insecurity in themselves, more than an indictment of anyone else not so.

Besides that, reading the koran and bible and other texts called holy, describing a god worthy of honor, given all that it's said to have done to humanity under it's authority as that higher power, not believing, to me, examples a measure of respect for ones self. Rather than to hold respect and defer to that authority that, in every holy writ, is no better in it's command over the human spirit, than the worst of us that live in the flesh. We're called sinful for what we do and yet when it that is suppose to be supreme and the progenitor of our species does it, it's called holy. We're suppose to ask to be saved from ourselves, so we can enter into the presence of that that is no better. Proof yet again, humans make their gods in their image. Even if it is claimed the words are inspired, they are so to the minds of mortal consciousness that are, by nature, already in deficit to anything that would be purported to be of a higher consciousness, so as to rightly translate the information received. Maybe that's why you find all those glitches in the texts you've read. It's like anything else. One can claim they got their information from elsewhere, but ultimately the one sure author is mortal and as such is prone to ego and error, just the same. Besides that, I don't think a higher power gets jealous of it's creation. Orders it's creation to kill others created because it takes umbrage they're behaving as made. All those instances of abuse and oppression, prejudice, bigotry, hate. That's man, not anything that could be said to be higher than that consciousness which religion says needs to be saved from itself.

Just one question true, did you ever think of speaking to a pastor, or a theologian, or read a book or commentary that would explain the"glitch"?

The reason I ask is that I am fortunate to be friends with several pastors and professors of theology, who study the culture of the times when the Scriptures were written, understand the history of that time, read the passages in Hebrew, Greek, and Latin, and are able using all those tools and also dictionaries and concordances and prayer to get a true understanding of what the passages are talking about.

In the book of Isaiah, God tells Isaiah, "Come, let us reason together..." God wants us to think through things, seek knowledge, and learn from and through Him.

Yes of course. But for example when it says in the Bible that a slave has the choice between his freedom or staying with his family, it doesn't matter to me if this was just because of the times. Its immoral. And it came from God's word. So either, the writer got it wrong, so therefor it puts the whole book as suspect and unreliable, or God said it. If God said it then he's immoral. Either way, its not worthy of my belief.

And so, after careful thought and consideration, one chooses not to believe in the god set forth by mortal minds and men. Thus is personal reason achieved, with the mind "god" gave unto each and every one. It shouldn't be requisite that man believes in god, but that god believes in man. Because, between the two, which is suppose to be the higher consciousness!? And as such, if man decides not to believe, why be damned for that free choice, when one's faith should not be contingent on sustaining the existence of a god power, but rather instead sustains but that of a godly man made institution dedicated to a thing called god!?

If you try to impose the morality standards of the 20 century to ancient cultures you will never reconcile them. We would have to reject most of human history, because mankind has really not lived up to the “kind” part, we are a race of selfish materialistic beings for the most part. Its is but a few individuals that rebel against such power structures and it has taken us nearly two thousand years to see the small changes we have actually made today.
How’s the old saying go “don’t throw the baby out with the dirty water”

Irish

Great! Now you tell me and I got to go pick that up!

i recommend this site for you:
http://godisimaginary.com/

This is typically the kind of argument I get. But I don't understand how you can make this argument.

This isn't like interpreting a dream or something where perhaps there are multiple interpretations. The Bible is supposed to be the word of GOD. You want me to accept that its true, but only certain parts.

Well why do you get to choose the parts? The whole book is suspect to me. And I guess I would not throw the baby out with the bath water but more the fruit of the poisonous tree, (ironic no?)

from wiki

Fruit of the poisonous tree is a legal term in the United States used to describe evidence gathered with the aid of information obtained illegally. The logic of the terminology is that if the source of the evidence (the "tree") is tainted, then anything gained from it (the "fruit") would be likewise.

You became a non-beleiver because your one of the smart ones....

I don't think either I or Irish said anything about only accepting certain parts as true. There is a difference between saying, "Think about who the original audience was, what the culture of that time was, and how what was said to that culture applies to our culture today," and saying, "Well, only believe this part of this Scripture, and only part of that verse, but ignore this section completely... etc."

I understand you don't believe, and, obviously, that is your choice, but you should be sure that your decision was based on actual, valid information and not just out of a misunderstanding or worse simple ignorance.

EDIT: By the way, I'm not calling you ignorant, I know you are a very intelligent person and would not even consider insulting you that way. I'm saying you may lack some information, sources, or tools that may have helped explain some of your questions or doubts.

Today I can see the actual evolution of religion. I can see how it started, why it was needed, and how it was exploited as a means of power and control.

In our ancient history there was a time when all the forces of nature, all the things not quite understood were illustrated with an explaination of a higher power. A power that no man had the capacity to understand, for knowledge of this power was unobtainable, therefore there was no point in trying to gain a grasp of this divinity.

There were times of slavery, oppression, and rule by tyrannical force. In these times of need, the downtrodden developed hope in the developement of a messiah and a salvation. Through generations this developement became more refined and eventually integrated as fact into these cultures. Through the ages this idea of a messiah and a salvation doled out by a divine character became the very foundation for todays religion.

The rulers of these downtrodden people realized over time that the best way to maintain their level of power and control was to manipulate, indeed incorporate, the beliefs of their subservients into the canon from which they ruled.

This is where the rulers of the weak became the intermediaries between God and the ruled class. For now the peons need not question life or the manner in which it was ruled, the peon need not concern themselves with the mysteries of life, indeed the peon need not question a thing, for only the Rulers and the Gods above them have the mental capacity or the right to boast this knowledge. An uneducated, fearful people are the easiest to rule over. Especially if as a ruler you hold the key to your peoples salvation and you hold over them the threat of damnation. An assault on the King in these times was equated as an assault on God himself.

It is this developement of organized religion and the God that it professes that has caused endless division in the world. A divided people are not a united people, and the masses are ever weak as long as they stay divided.

A person need not question a thing because all the answers are provided and listed in the great book that holds the path to their salvation. Just go to work and follow your government's proclamations and creeds, worry not for they are in accordance with God and only they understand. Propagate your religion, condem those that don't adhere and never once flash a query-filled look towards the men behind the curtain, for it is your duty as a God-fearer to obey.

This is why I'm a non-believer.

In my opinion there is something very spiritual about the human race. I believe that this true spirituality has been hidden and replaced with that of todays religions, in order to prevent mankind from realizing its true potential and to force us to be ever subservient to our rulers.

Truethat, you seek your own path and way not we all must seek our answers in our own way. I am ever amazed when you state way you don't believe the Christians say read the Bible again your not getting it. How many time does one have to read the Bible before one gets it. I have read it, so has Truethat, and the most of other non-Christians on the site. We get it and want no part of it. I am for one am not going to read it again. I have more important things to read about my own Path. I could name off dozens of books on Druidry and Paganism for Christians to read and maybe ya'll might get it and change your religion or beliefs, but I bet you won't read them, cause you think they are evil. You will never truly know cause your not going to read them. I have read your book so I know what it says and I know it is faults to me.

Well put Chauncy. Darkwind, I for one would be interested in reading what you have to share about druidry. I'm atheist, however I do enjoy learning of the ancients faith before the advent of spiritual institutions that erected an ecclesiastical authority between humanity and nature. Affecting almost a sterile automaton culture that gradually sought to evolve itself beyond that natural origin or communication that the ancient people seemed to intuit was there in all things.


I think that's why some, like myself, choose to be atheists.Because institutionalized thinking, regarding the origin of all life, that natural unknown power that invigorates existence to the command authority or dominion of the mortals that chose to invent a monotheistic patriarchal god ideology and corresponding dogma as an explanation for that unknown power. And in so doing assume the guise of a belligerent dictatorship that implies it knows how people need to see that unknown power because of some text that was claimed to be inspired by the source itself. And yet, those that choose to live in concert with that source, practice and respect their own faith in animism and polytheism, are considered primitive, or ignorant, by those dogmatic principles and authorities. Thereby imparting an example that religion seeks to make of itself an un-natural sterile dictatorship that believes god is extraneous being not invested within it's creation but rather lives outside of it, as if it's a puppet master pulling the strings of all that exists, but is not inherent to all that exists.

Atheists do not believe in anything super natural, as a cause or creator of reality. And indeed, given all that we see of reality, how can there be any thing super natural involved in creating all of nature as we know it!? However, man made institutions, dictating an authority over , by the power vested in that man made creation they call god, through the agency of dogma, can certainly relegate nature to their command and thereby set themselves as the creators of all that believers hold in faith, when they claim god is not alive in nature, but rather is something only that can be found on the canonized page! Which is the height of arrogance and an example in itself of what that command authority defines as at least 3 of those "7 deadly sins". (pride, greed, gluttony) And those 7 deadly are defined as transgressions that are said to be fatal to spiritual growth or progress.
And certainly, imo, creating man made institutions , dogma, god ideologies, so as to claim authority to define all that exists by word of man that asks us to trust it's all really the inspired word of the invisible power behind all of nature, is indeed fatal to spiritual growth and progress. Because it asks us to trust, as an explanation of all that is seen and unseen, in human professions that their authority know the answer to all of it because they can call it god.

And we, in turn, are suppose to believe. And what we're actually being asked to believe in is that which men created first. In their dogma and bible(s) and visions of god. And then they tell us that god is a jealous god. An angry god. A wrathful god. A god that kills by proxy all those that don't believe in the god. That threatens damnation for eternity if we don't keep , while on earth, "his" ordinances. Which are related by mortals just like us. Talk about a credibility issue!

Prove god said it!
Trust us, we're clergy. This stuff was inspired.
Prove that.
Trust us! Take it on faith!

But I do not see that as what is alive in all else of the natural world, that personality we're told is god, by the assumed command of men that define it as such. What is written of that alleged being is more akin to the deficient personality of humans that set themselves up as god, that creator power that tells us it's imaginings are god. And asks us to give our life to accepting that without question! At the threat of losing our soul if we fail to comply and accept on faith what intellect simply can not. And given the history of it's authority on Earth thus far, with the advent of monotheism, I'd rather believe in nothing like that, than to credit that with having a higher authority over me than what I would give a fellow human being that behaved like that in my personal life. I wouldn't accept a vicious person commanding my life. A jealous man intimidating me with rules of conduct and ultimatums. That's an insult to my sense of self respect and independence. So why on Earth would I ever bow to something that I'm told is creator of all that I see, that exhibits a personality like that when I wouldn't respect that in a fellow human being!?

What amazes me is that it seems you can only become a non-believer by rejecting the Koran and the Bible. I never accepted them, yet I am still ‘believer’ in my own way.

The Koran was a manual by a maniac who wanted to control the Middle East. The bible was a book for the Roman church who wanted to do the same in Europe. Neither play any part in my ‘belief system’.

The bible and Koran couldn’t have less to do with it. In fact, they have NOTHING to do with it. I don’t get why for some ‘believing’ needs to strictly be associated with these two publications.

I stopped believing in God once I realized I didn't need to believe in something I know exists.

Question: why are you relying on a book to dictate whether or not you believe in something? Haven't you got your own mind?

Well the term non believer as I understand it is a term that refers to going from a Judeo Christian standpoint to NOT believing it any more. Or one that rejects these beliefs. That's why I didn't say atheist. Good job on the patronizing attitude though! Gotta love it!

So are you exporing the issue from a cold, scientific and/or philosophical standpoint just for the sake of analysing it then, or are you sincerely struggling with the issue on a personal level? Judging by your response, it sounds like the former.

?

Sure. It's possible to believe in something so strongly that it becomes a conviction. An unproveable conviction to be sure, but a conviction nonetheless.

Doesn't mean I simply accept whatever I'm told though. I may not be a natural skeptic, but I do question and formulate my own thoughts.

Besides, my understanding of "God" isn't that of a "Being" per se, but more of an energy or consciousness. Jesus and Mohamed to me aren't "saviours". Just older and perhaps wiser brothers. But equals.

Plus, it doesn't hurt one's belief system to get dangerously close to death numerous times and surviving. Nothing pierces the veil separating life and death faster than cheating death itself. So far I've been shot at by drunk hunters and had someone point a double barreled shotgun at point blank range, survived a bear attack, and confronted ocean freighters on the St-Lawrance seaway in a canoe.

Ah, you are a modernist believer. Ty.

Sort of like you trust once you realize you never had too???

Once you rember you are all that is ( which is life , integral and unified and viable) you cease to "NEED" to believe in it, Faith is outgrown as anything more than tool for the uncertainty.... , you then are it...you aren't sewing girl /boy scout buttons, paging through the dogmas to your vest labeling yourself anything, you only do that when you do not know who you are.....you only think you know whtas best for another when you don't know whts best for yourself , its not rocket science.....

Supra - I'm afraid I had trouble understanding what you were getting to. Could you elaborate in plainer terms?

And a modern believer, sure. LOL - whatever label makes you comfortable.

Well, one might care to consider that there are an inordinate number of believers that believe because a book tells them there is cause to believe in a thing that book claims is called god. A book that claims it was divinely inspired to the scribes of the time, so as to communicate the reason for all that exists and the reason is the power, authority and dominion of that thing calling itself god. Creator of the heavens and the earth. The all knowing, ever present, source of all that exists.
So consequently, when someone hears this is an explanation for their life and what they know as conscious reality, when they choose not to believe that they choose not to believe in the god of that book. Having one's own mind, would entail not accepting any such man made explanation or investing any faith in any of that at all. So indeed, it can be said, the person of whom you speak does have their own mind when they choose not to believe in what other people, no better nor wise than they themselves, tell them the source for all that exists can be defined by words on a page. Which is what upholds believers faith in their ideology of a god, because of what those words impart to them that that means.

There are many books that claim to know this. And they are all said to be inspired. So clearly it's one of the two. Either the "god" doing the inspiring has many aliases, or the people claiming to take the dictation, do. And each and every one claims what they wrote down is the only one that's right. Which, if it were the case, there wouldn't be so many holding claim to that title, because they were all inspired to write the book that gave voice to it as it said, "Here I am!"

i was adding to your idea, , you don't need to beleive in life once you realize you are life, or you love once you know you don't have to love becaseu you are love, the need toos are the lacks of, if you" beleive" their is a 'god' you beleive in the idea of those that have come before, even the idea they had relationships etc... , one knows life, not beleives one knows love not bleives in it on knows trust not beleives in it, to belive in it infers you do not know it..., i was adding on to your idea, it was a good one IMO.....

God needs a literary agent.

Uo that is what i keep telling her too.....her writing is amazing ,literary genius, okay okay, ... she writes great ..(hint hint ) get that book going woman

I'm not struggling with anything honey. LOL I don't believe in God theories.

I wouldn't insult the believers intelligence, but I would say they're gullibile.

And yet, while one may judge it so (gullible) what does it say of the intellect of those that would create that which one must be gullible to believe!?

What is the purpose of faith, if by definition it can never impart truth or fact!? Perhaps it's to distract so that believers compromise faith in themselves, by holding faith in what others claim is true enough to be taken on faith.

From my travels and life experience I've learned long ago that self made people usually end up worshiping the creator.

I hear wht you say. I never read a bible till I was well in my 40's. Got it from my daughetr. I started reading, and as I was raeding I more and more often was shaking my haed in disbeliev about the nonesense we believe come from God; or so were told all our life. I also had a few people in my surroundings calling themself followers of Jesus ,but doing the right opposite from what they claim to believe. hypocrates I believe Jesus caled the. Then those very people wanted to teach me the bible, but very amusingly, to every thinng they claimed to truth, I found apassage saying the opposite. It was ias if somebody or something made me aware of them. But the most amizing was, that when I started questioning things, and in my mind I ask:'Father, why that.... And this makes no sense...' I got the answers to my questions. It toke me a while to realize that it is true: 'Ask and you shall recieve.' But it only worked when I start asking God! Believe it or not...

i became what I am naturally which is unconditonal love/life and i proceed from that awareness, i need no lables to brand myself with , I Just AM.......
I know that I don't know and in that knowing i am at peace.....

I belive that man will for sure misinturpret holy text because of things that we are unaware of or just can not comprehend due to our physical state of being.

Inconsistencies and immoral behavior(and stuff like that) in the bible isn't a reason to denounce God's existence...its a reason not to worship him. Using science and the sort to disprove the existence of God is the reason to not believe in God's existence. I hope I make sense...you can believe that God is evil, immoral, and wrong but he could still exist.

I believe in God, but not in any so-called holy-book.
I believe that God is good and hence I discound anything that does not sound GOOD to me written about God, as not coming from God.
My experience has shown me that 'negative spirits' often pretent to be God, and hence I assume that pleople who claimed that God was talking to them but gave them negative instructions, were spychic and mislead by some entity claiming to be God...
And that is how God got his BAD reputation...
But that is just my view...

True thats a fair enough point - you became a non believer because you dont trust the texts- neither do i but im still a believer...Mainly because the core of my belief is in a God that we cant understand or comprehend...We can write whatever we want about him but the fact is we know nothing about God. Ignore the Bible and Quran and seek the true elements of God.

Im also so sick of people insulting the intelligence of believers on here...Being an Athiest makes you smart? Since when?



The reason i believe in a God is the amazing contrast not only of Earth but of our entire galaxy...How did everything get everywhere- even skeptical scholars say that a believer always has a point when he says the reason he believes in God is because it is so finely "tuned" for existance. Look at the stars- the sky- the universe and the galaxy...Think of every single detail of its existance.

God is just like that (the galaxy) - he is mysterious but so beautiful. Athiests have no idea how the World got here. Neither do i. I just choose to believe something was behind it....That makes us even. It doesn't make you smarter. So stop insulting the intelligence of believers because it makes you look stupid. Honestly. Dont belittle or degrade someone because of their beliefs...

You know not an Iota more than i do about how we got to being here and how things got to being where they are and how the Universe was formed in all its amazing complex detail & glory!

It is a good feeling to know that it is ok not to always have all of the answers. It leaves room for a future frontier to exist that fires the imagination and generates creativity.

Just a thought, but a thousand years ago, what people considered "good" and "bad" was different to how it is today. A thousand years from now, people's ideas of what is good and bad will change again. So what you're doing is judging the character of God (or god/s) based on a transitory morality system that is constantly changing. Know what I mean.

THey're not insulting the intelligence of believer's. They're just saying we're very gullible (I believe that was the phrase someone used).

isis you have a point, i wonder how can anything coming from a diety of any kind, i guess i'm looking at the pagans and diests as role models their dietys are so kind and inspirational and loving nothing like this abrahamic diety this monster who delights in killing and condesending its followers, I too if i did the god construct would not be following messages of fear and bigotry and shunniing and hatred ,I'd pass, oh i did lol......

"for all have sinned and come short of the glory of god" Romans 3:23

the man or woman who doesn't recognize god as the master of his life, is in disobedience and sinful the soul that sinneth shall die ( Ezekiel 18:4)

there is a great gulf between you and holy god and sinful man you shall die an eternal deathluke 16:12\


wow these are the sort of scriptures that one would get a good idea on this diety , he isn't the nice ole grandpa in the sky no siree this is one nasty dude....Proceed at your own risk.....

How does someone that doesn't believe as a believer does, insult the intelligence of a believer, because someone else doesn't believe as they do!?

If an atheist, for instance, doesn't believe in dogma that doesn't make them right or wrong, it means it is something they can live with. Because, speaking from a personal pov now, I find it would insult my intelligence if I gazed in wonder through my telescope, watched the television programs relating all the amazing stills taken of the deep field by Hubble, and accepted the strict elitist, exclusivist, myopic credo dogma that tells me there's only one way to see all that incredible majesty, as being in existence because of one strict elitist dogmatic all powerful, omniscient being called "god" making it appear.

That insults my intelligence. It would insult my intelligence were I to look about me in my neighborhood, in this small circle of this incredible Earth jewel and confine my understanding of myself in relation to all other people and what they mean as people and in relation to me, by that which I would accept as a strict, elitist , exclusivist myopic dogmatic construct that attempts to impart to my understanding, that amid over a billion people on this planet, that dogma is right when it says I am the only one among them that knows what's going on. That I'm the only one, and those that accept the dogma I do as well, that are meant to be "saved" from myself and everything else around me, if I only believe and follow the rules that dogma sets forth. Because that dogma imparts to me that all the other people I see , though made by the one and only creator, aren't special like I and those others that believe "rightly" are. That would insult my intelligence. To imagine I'm somehow "more better" or special, because I accept this stricture of words and rituals , these beliefs that there's only one way to believe what is responsible for myself and everyone and everything that is awe inspiring and immense in this world and the Universe of which is still being discovered.

So please, don't get mad because you translate those that don't believe as you do as insulting your intelligence. Rather you might consider that they're exercising their own intelligence, after careful review of all the faiths, and not believing as you choose to.

"You became a non-beleiver because your one of the smart ones...."
"Is that why you are so defensive against non-believers because we're on a higher level of understanding then you are? "

Im really layed back and all and im not saying anything nasty or blowing it out of proportion but although these quotes arent directly an insult they are still what the majority of Athiest truely think - that they are smarter than believers. They always do it PA and you know it- even on those youtube videos "If you are a normal, decent, intelligent human being then you wouldnt believe this". Its a sort of brainwashing from athiests to believers - they can easily convince a young believer that believing in a God makes them not so intelligent and living in 300ad. Its a tool that they use to belittle and make a believer feel inadequate for their beliefs so they reconsider. Believer or not we on this board i believe are all "normal, decent, intelligent human beings".

Ramster you are in a exclusivist construct taht has superiority myths and beleives in all that , a seperatist construct, so normally you see thngs as less then or greater than when really its not the intent, when one sees themselves as onenessss there is nothing but equals, anyone and everyone at some point can be ignorant and just not have information or be informed about things in error....


I truly have a great respect for PA he asks and asks and asks what do you mean , I'm taking it this way help me clairify what you mean until we can understand each other , no one knows this better than i , we have had our discussions, No one is insulting anyone or attacking, most other paths are not exclusivist they have no reason to attack only the ones that are wanting to keep there exclusivity tend to see others as an attack, is it evil or bad no its just a misunderstnading and Athiest or agnostic or Buudhist or pagan are trying ot brige the gaps not create them...RAmster you can be christian and be open minded and tolerant of all others , we have many on here like that PA, you , Irish, 101 are exemplary examples of this so its a choice.....whetehr one sees attack or jsut discussions would you agree???

Yeah thats cool no biggie really- I do agree that being open minded is completely a choice...I barely see what they said as attacks but just slightly degrading. Disassociating yourself with religion doesnt suddenly boost your IQ to Einstein levels. Well said anywas.

i'll second that Ramster one isn't suddenly a genius because they aligned with their true nature...and for the record you can be aligned as i say and in a religion, as i said we have that alot on UM including you and often I jsut forget to include you but you too are gracious and open minded and willing to discuss anything with anyone....


Its good to go over things and over them the ultimate goal is after all peace and unity ..would you agree???

Fair enough, Ram. I was actually thinking of a specific quote I read a couple of days ago in one of these threads, when one particular non-Christian said "I wouldn't call them unintelligent, but I would say they are very gullible". My search function isn't really working properly at the moment, so I can't find it.

I must disagree. I for one do know whether or not there is a God and I am happy to say that there is. keYou may or may not believe me and that's your choice. But I think that until you have met all people, you cannot make such a claim.



Blessings In Christ,
SoulSlayer

It all comes down to separatism doesn't it!? As if someone that does not hold faith, could really insult the intelligence of someone that does. When those that hold faith in any higher power, have an IQ higher than that of a rock, how can someone not believing as they do levy insult to that intellect!? Maybe what's being insulted instead is a believers security, as they encounter those that define their personal reasons and thoughts as to: why they don't believe and what they think of others that do.

And if we on this board are all normal, decent, intelligent human beings, then why are you using certain members quotes as an example of how the majority of atheists truly think?!

When I read christians of any denomination, or anyone else, make blanket statements about other persons, because they object to how other persons make blanket statements, I automatically flash back to something that would qualify as a "Farside" cartoon. Because it's actually an oxymoron, and maybe that's why I find it so damn funny and see it in a block cartoon format, as I read.




Because, in my opinion, the quote above could be very easily turned around so that it's subject, "atheists", become "muslim" or any other creed.

For instance, without indicting any specific faithful ideology, using just "believer" , juxtaposed to "non-believer" in the dialog: ".... I'm not saying anything nasty or blowing it out of proportion but although these quotes aren't directly an insult they are still what the majority of believers truly think - that they are smarter than non-believers. They always do it PA and you know it- even on those youtube videos "If you are a normal, decent, intelligent human being then you would believe this". Its a sort of brainwashing from believers to non-believers - they can easily convince a young non-believer that not believing in a God makes them so un-intelligent and living in 300ad. Its a tool that they use to belittle and make a non-believer feel inadequate for their beliefs so they reconsider.

Of particular attention in that piece is the last sentence. Non-believers opinions about believers. How they come across in communicating their bias, their opinion. As a tool used to belittle and make a (non)believer feel inadequate for their beliefs so they reconsider.

That is one incredible credit to give to non-believers, I gotta say. Imagine it for a moment as real life. Someone that does not believe in any supernatural being or presence, capable of making someone that does believe in that presence feel inadequate for it so much so that they reconsider! Wow! That would be some seriously powerful rhetoric to convince someone that holds faith in a creed for living this life, and holds faith/hope as to how that relates to that which comes after, changing that opinion and lifestyle by exercising their free right to an opinion of the whole thing.

How about if we don't give anyone's rhetoric, believer or non, that kind of power over our living our truth!? Because I believe if someone can talk someone else out of their faith, because they make them feel inadequate for holding it, then it's not the one speaking that's responsible. It's the believer that's listening and their responsibility for feeling belittled and inadequate, for holding the faith they believe is able to be threatened by what they translate as belittling and capable of making them feel inadequate. A believer lives their faith. They make a personal emotional, intellectual choice to accept dogma. Why? Who can say, but let's presume because it feels right for them personally. So then is it someone else and their personal opinion that can change that , when they aren't living there!? When that person posting or speaking walks away , taking their personal life with them, the believer to whom they were speaking is still there living and believing as they did. But if that changes, who made the choice!?

And especially in matters of faith, when some faithful believe they shall be eternally damned if they don't believe. Is it someone's opinion that's making someone change how they think about their faith, given part of what they're changing their mind about insures they'll be damned for eternity, for it!? How secure is that faith in the first place if someone's rhetoric alone can change it!? What excuse is that exactly!? "I don't like being made to feel belittled and inadequate for thinking like this, so I'll change and then I'll fit in. And then no one can make me feel like this. "

Ha! Just wait! Because there's plenty of people that can nail hell out of people for not believing. And do, on a regular basis. Just read message forums, like certain posts at one in particular (theologyonline.com), or surf the cable channels and pause on any televangelist program. They even attack other christians not of their denomination! Talk about rhetoric that spits all around hate and bigotry. Akin to saying:" We damn anyone not like us! Hallelujah and pass the offering plate. Jesus saves only us!" -shakes rattle, does a little dance-

So, instead of feeling "most" every atheist feels like you say they do, how about feeling confident in who you are and the faith you hold and in that allow everyone else to feel the same!? Certainly not everyone is going to respect faith, or the faithful. But is that the faithfuls problem. Is that the non-believers problem!? Or rather is it the responsibility, the domain, of those that hold the attitude about them!?

And who's that attitude really affect anyway!? The target of the attitude or the one in which the attitude lives!? Because in this whole wide world of diverse personalities and cultures, faithful and non, it's a hell of a way to live thinking any one else can make the one living their personal free right of choice, feel wrong for doing it. If it feels wrong, maybe instead of thinking someone else is responsible for that doubt inside, maybe it's that deeper wisdom inside saying one should take another look at who they believe themselves to be.

Because if one changes who they are to stop others from speaking about what that means to them, they're going to be incredibly frantic in trying to keep up with the changes, to please everyone else, but themselves. And that is no way to live. Believe it!

Correcction: I believe that God was good, is good and always will be. He will not do anything to hurt anybody atany time; psysically, emotionally or otherwise...
So if people back then 'created God in their image' and hence thought that he was capable of doing what they did, then that does not mean we must just accept it as coming from God.
God does not change his mind, like we change our underpants. He does not one day say; 'Thou shall not kill', and the next he tells Abraham to kill his son; not even to test him! If Abraham would be living today, Sarah would tell him to go and see a shrink. Thats what I think....
Then take Jacob, the father of all Israelies. He was the biggest liar and cheater in the bible. He cheated his broter out of house and hof for a plate of soup! Hello, anybody out there? How can anybody with his head srewed on right, believe that he was holy or special?
Gods law says: 'Thou shall not commit adultery.' Having more then one woman means he committed adultery towards the woman he loved and wanted to marry; Rachel! He might get away with the claim that he was tricked into sleeping with Bea, but all the others he chose to sleep with! And then he made his followers believe that it was Gods will that he has so many sons with different woman? Next joke please!
Here is another food for thought: since I question what is in the bible, I ask God for what happend. Here is what I dreamed really happend when Jacob fought with that angel:
After Rachels maid became his concubine, Rachel got a new maid. Jacob followed her that day/night and wanted to sleep with her. She did not want to sleep with him because he was ISCH RACHEL, meaning Rachels husband. But he forced himself onto her, and she fought back, dislocating his leg in the procces. 'He won' the fight with that angel/good woman, meaning, he raped her, and it was in that night that Menashe, Jocobs 13st son was fathered. Isch Rachel was later joint and shortened to Israel.
Strange is, that it is comman knowledge that he had a 13st son, who was not acknowledged as an Israely, but nodody seems to know WHY!
I dont know if my dream is correct, I just know that over 500 have come true so far and hence I take them seriously. I also concider the possiblity greater that my dream is correct, then that a angel fights with a human; let alone that the human would win that fight...
What do you think?