SAN FRANCISCO, California (AP) -- A woman who claimed God ordered her to make a human sacrifice chose to kill her three children instead of herself, making her guilty of murder, a prosecutor said Wednesday during closing arguments at the woman's trial.

Prosecutor Linda Allen asked jurors to use their heads, not hearts, to determine Lashuan Harris' fate.

The mentally ill Oakland woman threw her children into San Francisco Bay last year but has pleaded not guilty to three counts of murder by reason of insanity.

Defense attorney Teresa Caffese said Harris believed completely that she was sending her children -- 6-year-old Trayshun Harris, 2-year-old Taronta Greeley, Jr., and 16-month-old Joshoa Greeley -- to heaven when she threw them over a railing and into the bay's cold waters.

If Harris believed her delusions were real, Caffese argued, she is innocent of murder.

She said her client was, by many accounts, a good mother and gentle person whose lifelong struggle with mental illness finally overwhelmed her.

The jury begins deliberations on Thursday.

If jurors find Harris guilty, they then must then determine whether she was legally sane at the time of the crime. She faces a possible life prison sentence if convicted on all charges.

Caffese read from a letter she said Harris wrote from jail that was addressed to God.

"I did what you told me and now I am in lockup," Harris wrote. "Kiss my boys for me."

Allen said Harris deserves sympathy, but told jurors they could not use that as a factor in determining guilt or innocence.

While Harris believes she heard God's voice, it took a series of rational decisions to take her children from Oakland to the pier, undress the boys -- one of whom struggled with her -- hoist them over the railing and drop them into the water, Allen said.

"She knew you had to die to get to heaven. She knew how to get them to God. They had to die first, and that was her plan," she said.

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She's mentally ill for believing in god? I mean, if god tells someone to build a shelter it's fine and dandy... But if they kill 3 young men it's not?

No, she's just mentally ill.

If I were the judge she'd get the death penalty. but you see God says in the bible not to murder. He does say to love. Building a shelter is an act of love. Killing is an act of hate.

Exactly. Does a sane woman decide one day: golly wiz, I think today I'll see if my kids can float!



Justice for the children would be giving this woman the mental health care she needed before her illness compelled her to take their lives. An all around tragedy, this is.

I really wish they would change the insanity plea from Not guilty by reason of insanity to "GUILTY by reason of insanity"

I think it would go really far in changing how this plea is used.

sanity is relative.

This is really typical Xian behavior. Build this woman a chapel and give her a t.v. show!

Funny I read nothing that said she was Christian just that she heard the voice of God. I believe you have made that claim in the past! I guess you must know a lot of Christians that throw babies of bridges if you consider it typical!

Irish

I'm pretty sure that "Death = Heaven" is a Christian belief.
Regardless, this isn't a thread on whether or not Christianity causes mental insanity, is it? (Really, I think the religion just attracts the types...)

She really should get life in prison or the death penalty. Her kids' deaths were planned by her (even if a voice in her head told her to do it,) and carried out with determination.
An asylum can't help this woman, IMO.

I feel like throwing this woman off the end of a pier and saying god told me to so she could be with her children.

God's plan is his own... So what's wrong with him asking someone to kill 3 young men? It is god she said was talking to her.

So let me get this straight... You're mental and in the wrong if god talks to you, but if you talk to god, you're perfectly alright?



The former nurse's assistant had been living with her boys in a Salvation Army homeless shelter since September.
Source

Well the Salvation Army is a branch of Christianity.

More so, just the word God would more then likely not point to a Christian because of demographics in the United States. Also the same with the word "heaven" for being a christian.

Yes it is but it also includes Islam, Judaism, Hinduism and a myriad of other beliefs as well as a few cults.

As well the Salvation Army services are not just for Christians.

Regardless the woman was mentally ill, period.

Irish

IMO... only someone who is desperately trying to save her own ass would use the "God told me to" defense...or someone who's severely deranged...and that still isn't enough reason for a not-guilty by reason of insanity plea...

The fact still remains god asked for her to do those deeds.

Lots of people say god helped them out, or told them to do something that ends up in the good grove of things... But if someone does something "bad" that god told them to, it's not the same thing?

Give me a break Kratos, you are acting like GOD really asked her to do it. As an atheist I find that as impossible and see that a lot of people in recent times are mentioning "God told me to" as a form of defense. In other words if I want to really pretend I am bonkers all I have to do is say "God made me do it" and I'm off the hook.

Thanks Andrea Yates, what a lovely legacy you've left behind.

I worked for the Salvation Army. They are a Christian organization but are pretty much impeccable in their efforts. I can't praise them enough. They will help all people not just Christian ones. So I'm not sure what your point is other than a blatant attempt at Christian bashing.

Why should her reason determine her punishment. Every murderer had a reason.

And yet, murder is considered an un-reasonable act. I think the reason being she was un-reasonable (i.e. mentally ill) is an indicator that she was acting out of her own control. A mentally ill mind can not recognize it's own pathology of mental illness. Consequently, I don't think, she was capable of realizing she was not acting reasonably, when her illness made her to act in this way.
And yes, there are many vicious people that can claim "the devil" or "god" made them do it, however there are markers that mental health professionals can identify that can determine if someone is faking or is seriously whacked. I just don't think a ill person should be imprisoned for an act they did in the throes of mental disease. Does a mentally ill mother ever forget she murdered the babies she gave birth to? Does a mentally healthy woman murder the babies she gave life to!? Is a mentally ill woman that murders her babies in the chronic condition of a mental disease, as guilty of that murder of her babies as a woman that simply wanted to get rid of her kids by any means necessary!?

Is murder by mental disease the same as cold blooded malice murder!? Even though they're both acts of an unstable mind, that one is truly ill, isn't that a factor in how they should be addressed by the justice system!? Is putting sick people in prison the sign of a civilized mentally stable society!?

I think a mentally ill person should be held accountable for what they do. I'm not saying the punishment should be vicious but I think that part of the problem with this thinking is that "anyone" is mentally ill when they do something like this.

If you shoot someone you are either evil or not in your right mind. Look at Phil Hartman's wife who shot him and then killed herself. She wasn't a basket case up until the moment, she snapped. Most people snap. You can't ignore this.

She needs to be locked up for the rest of her life, either in a mental institution or elsewhere.

Something that bugs me about this is because these are "HER" children, people have this attitude that she's not a menace to the general public. But we don't know that.

Locked up in a mental institution for life. I also wish that they would give people the opportunity to donate themselves to science as a way of paying back. So not in a sick way but allowing herself to be used to test for medications or a murderer allowing himself to be analyzed to see why he acted the way he did.

"If you talk to god you're devout. If god talks back you're insane."

Thats just horrible.

My personal opinion is that anyone who kills someone where it wasn't an accident should be put to death. It isn't like she is ever going to be 'rehabilitated'. If people knew they would die if they killed someone, not in 15 years but in less than 30 days after they were convicted...

....but it's too late for that, ain't never gonna happen.

My point was not that she should be set free or not held accountable for the actions. My point is firstly she was sick in the brain, bluntly speaking. She murdered her kids thinking throwing them in the bay was a good thing. That needs be addressed. Because the headlines prove she's not the first and she shall not be the last, horrifically enough it's true. So, if one would wish her to have her body donated to research , after death, to study the why of her mental illness, why not study her now in a proper setting, like a mental health facility, but not one where they just drug hell out of you and "poof" your incarcerated in a pharmaceutical haze, and learn what is wrong with her and what helps to heal it. That is truly "preventative medicine". Because the more they would study minds like this, the more they could learn about pathologies like this, so as to help save babies and their parents a future like this.

There has to be compassion with justice. Otherwise it's injustice. This is why I asked if the mentally ill mind that murders, is as worthy of a prison sentence as that of a mentally disturbed mind that commits malice murder. And that they were her kids is certainly a factor in this tragedy and case. Because of all the persons on earth that could take the life of three kids, that the mother , she that gave them life, did is certainly not what would be considered an act perpetrated by a woman possessed of a healthy maternal instinct.

GW i agree as a humanity we need to unerstand the underlying beleifs that have led to her doing this, We haven't done that as a humanity, we jsut say 'oh kill em'..yet that hasn't stopped anything solved anything....it isn't working... we can't change nothing unttil we except responsibility as a humanity that we have allowed dogmas and in error beleifs to create behaviors that are so harmful what kind of civilzation hurts it children and calls this love and appropraite under any circumstances, one that isn't civil ...Our behavioral sciences have been saying this for a long time yet it falls on deaf ears. to the ones that need to hear it the most......why, how many more kids have to die before humanity wakes up to the fact it has created its own monsters..........

As a humanity jsutice is punishment at best.... ...... It isn't working people , If it was that would be one thing but it isn't.......I agree with Kratos the mental illness took root the minute she emulated the abrahamic diety...How would she of known the differnce this isn not a love construct this is about following the rules and this god/parent kills if one doesn't obey......

I'm also an atheist. But hey, if someone wants to claim god told them to build a shelter, aided them in some way... Surely if someone claims god asked them for a human sacrifice, that should be brought up as well.

So believers, why do you think god asked this person to sacrifice her sons to him? God works in mysterious ways, but dang.

You can't pick and choose who god talks to either. I mean, if it's believed he talks to the pope, george bush or some random joe... Surely he can talk to this woman.

Part of the reason I brought this up is to show the hypocrisy. If this woman had saved 3 boys from a burning building and said god told her how to get them out, it'd be plastered every where for the believers to point and scream "MIRACLE!!!". Look here now, everybody is distancing themselves from a person acting out 3 murders because she says god told her to do it.

*edit spelling

Wow, a crazy person said something crazy about God. That must mean God is a crazy concept that only crazy people believe. What a load. Kratos, why don't you try understanding other people's views instead of taking these erratic pot shots at them?

So it's not crazy then to you if someone tells them god talked to them to help them out? But in this case it is? Mental illness or not, many other people have claimed that god has spoken to them. Only since this is considered bad, it's not the case?

Like I said before...

If this woman had saved 3 boys from a burning building and said god told her how to get them out, it'd be plastered every where for the believers to point and scream "MIRACLE!!!". Look here now, everybody is distancing themselves from a person acting out 3 murders because she says god told her to do it.

I do understand though. I was raised a christian. I'm an atheist now though.

Kratos in my opinion is undeniably correct.

If you can't see the difference between building a shelter in the name of God and throwing your children off a bridge in the name of God, then perhaps you don't understand. You might at least entertain the possibility that there is something you don't understand. Instead, you attack people who believe differently from you, and you do it with terrible logic. But the logic doesn't matter to you, because your mind is made up. All religious people are like this psychotic killer. That's what you're saying, isn't it? And be honest-- nothing could convince you otherwise, isn't that right?

You say you were raised Christian and are now an atheist. Well, I can believe that, because the way you crusade for atheism by demonizing the other side reminds me exactly of what many evangelical preachers do. Same game, you've just switched teams. Fine, take these shots at the religious people. You're not hurting them. But don't mistake what you are doing here for understanding. You are not trying to understand. You are attacking.

If you're of a mind to criticize religion, there are ways to do it without mischaracterizing religious people. Religions have enough problems that you don't have to invent new ones.

Would you rather I dance around the bush and be PC with a warm smile when discussing? Believers can be blunt and open with non-believers, but if I do the same I get all this said towards me. If your religion can't withstand tough questions, then you should start to ask yourself questions about your beliefs rather then get angry at me.

Yes, that would be an improvement. Thanks for asking.

Oh, no. That is not my position at all. It doesn't matter what one's belief is-- mischaracterizing the other side is wrong. Trying to understand the other side is better.



Christianity certainly isn't my religion. Nor do I think it's right to attack Christians in this way. Just because they are on the other team doesn't justify playing dirty with them. Furthermore, there's the possibility that they understand something I don't, and by engaging them constructively, with respect, I might learn something. Can you grasp that?

Don't assume that I'm angry. I'm trying to call your attention to something I think is important. If I'm blunt about it, it's because I think you can take it, and it's important not to mince words on these points.

God doesn't tell people to kill their children. the Bible says if someone thinks God is talking to them and the thing that talks to them does not agree with the Bible then it's not God.






Amen. No one said she was Christian so lets not turn this into a Christian bash-fest as thread's of this nature tend to be.....On that note Kratos I don't reallly know why you would start a thread like this? Don't you know it will only end up in fierce debate and will probably get closed? I mean your an Atheist ok, that's your choice, but when you start a thread like this it gives the notion that you WANT controversy.

Yeah, that was a rhetorical question.



I'm not mischaracterizing them. They have long claimed people have had god talk to them for good things to happen. And all of them in some way talk to god. I'm asking questions now and pointing out.



Playing dirty? I'm asking tough questions. If they don't like it, well I don't assume they will. I don't like a lot of what believers post but I've learned from it.

So you get to be blunt, but I'm not allowed to? I get your point but I'm not going to stop asking questions and pointing out details.

Fine, assuming god exists... Can you prove god didn't tell her? It's god's plan, not yours so he's allowed to poke at it. He made her mentally ill as well for a reason, right? Everything has a reason according to believers.

The bible is based on god. God can break those rules. He's a more so a guy of "Do as I say, not as I do." type of fellow.



It's assumed she's christian. She said god and heaven to point to that. Demographics also put it as a good chance as well.

A fierce debate... That's healthy for the system. Both sides should hammer out their points on tough questions, that's how we learn and grow.

There's another thread in this section questioning the morals of atheists, that's pretty much all about the controversy. Mistake me if I'm wrong, but I don't see you in there complaining about it. Double standards?

I was hoping you'd notice the irony in my answering it. But I'm quite serious that some "PC" respect for the other side would be welcome.

You will, of course, post whatever you want. I'm just telling you it's no better than the rants that Bible-bangers post about "evolutionists" and "secular humanists" and "God-haters." Reactionary atheism is no better than reactionary Christianity. Belief is belief, after all.

There's a better way. Skepticism is wonderful, but really, how great is it to be skeptical of those who think differently from you? Everyone does that. Far fewer people can manage to be skeptical of their own thoughts. That's what I mean by entertaining the idea that the other guy may understand something that you don't. Try it and see if real skepticism is to your liking. Or continue throwing stuff at the other guys, if you find it more rewarding. It's up to you.

Well, you sure as hell saw me complaining about the idea that morals come from belief in God. I think that's a load of nonsense.

It would take a miracle to get her let off for this crime! Actually come to think of it --she will get let off! After all she’s got extra credit in god’s bank, especially after sacrificing her kids.

haha you have it wrong. Not everything that happens happens because God wanted it to.

She says god and heaven and she's a Christian? Mulims call Allah God and they have their heaven.

As for debate this is not a debate this is your way of attacking the Christian faith. As for the morals of Atheists as far as i'm concerned Atheists have no reason to have morals. I have been in that thread, I read that thread and I did not see any reason to interject. I am not here to defend other faiths thank you. I am here for reasons that do not concern you.

Free will yeah... I know. Still, can you prove that god didn't tell her to do it, as she claims?



Yeah, that they do. I'm going off demographics in this country and those words.

Consider it an "attack" then, defend against the attack rather then dance around it.

I can.

I think you would agree with the assumption that God does not exist.

And I think you would agree with the assumption that God can tell the woman to murder her kids if and only if He exists.

Given these assumptions, we derive that is is not the case that God can tell her to murder her kids (by modus tolendo tolens).

You might challenge the proof by refusing to grant the assumption that God does not exist, but I don't think you want to do that.

Obviously you do not know what morals are. I have very good morals that were taught to me by my parents and extended family more than 30 years ago and I'm an Athiest.....they are not...but the morals still are with me.
Its a fact that your "morals" are learned before your 6th birthday.
No one has a reason to have morals....they are learned.
I do not need to believe in a non entity to have morals.
I assume you do.

Ew, lovely premise for refuting god told her to.


However, to claim it is a delusion to claim god spoke to this woman, is to indict those that have ever claimed the same deific communication. Thus, for instance, it would thereby indict the bible (and other holy books, but because of this womans religious affiliation we'll go on the premise of christianity here), to be a tome of delusion, rather than the words of god. No!?

I personally see a difference between acting in the name of god (building a shelter) and doing something that God supposedly told them to do (murder your three kids). No, Kratos, I can't prove that God didn't tell her to sacrifice her children, but it would be unbiblical to think that God would require it. Since the BIble makes it clear that there is NO NEED for blood sacrifices anymore (you know, the whole Jesus sacrifice, once for all kinda thing), then either this woman was mentally ill, or she did hear something that was not the God of the Bible.

And yes, you're probably right in that if someone saved a whole lot of kiddies from a burning building and then claimed God told him to be there at that time to do it, Christians probably would latch on and shout miracle. Double standards? Perhaps. But saving children from a burning building is not against Gods word. Killing a child, is (and no need to bring up sacrifices in the Old Testament - as I said, this is no longer needed since the sacrifice of Jesus).

~ PA

boorite, I have a question , do you care that this women is in a relgious construct that led her to kill her kids, by emulating hte very deith she worships people do crazy things when they worship, it is a very dangerous practice..... if indeed it is in the bible or in her beleifs wouldn't the appropriate response be to look into it???


This is a diety that requires worship, or you die, or some other horrible thing...also this is a god that sacraficed his own son for humans sinsthat he creatd and beleive me this god is very involved ....how does this happen??? and you wonder how this lady came to do the same thing...,then argue it as if this is not relgion....

Kratos is asking, as a athiest no affiliations to christianity the guy gives a sh** enough to psts and raise awareness, he really has no reason to care.....?? but he does....


Do you know that the christain diety sent his only son to be murdered knowingly as a sacrafice and this is called worthy of worship yet why not for this lady and please save the god is god he can do what he wants.....he gave life he can take it, maybe she felt the same way....shrugs

^Sheri, a mentally ill woman has no personal capacity to understand the ramifications of her actions. She may very well have heard the voice of her car engine telling her to do these things and still kill her children. The only difference is we wouldn't hear about it because events like that, as tragic as they may be, is not noteworthy (well, maybe if it was a car engine, it might make the news, but mentally ill people commit horrendous acts all the time and we don't hear about it because it is an unfortunate fact of life).

It need not be the fault of religion, but just the troubles of a troubled mind?

PA thats what we are exploring as responsible humans its a good idea if we figure that out, because if it is something she got from relgion I want to know about it...Children dying is very important to me any child and if there is something we need to change you better beleive it I want to know what that is, .. I'm not okay with kids dying and I'm not okay with kids dying for relgiion and I ask you the same question ???Are you????

I think you are missing PAs point....she did not kill her kids because of religious constructs. She killed her kids because...The Voices (which she interpreted to be Gods) told her to. PAs point is that if she is schizophrenic and The Voices tell her to kill her kids...it doesn't matter what the Voices are interpreted to be...The Voices rule her actions...she acts on The Voices because she believes the voices are real. I doubt it would be any different if she were an atheist.

It isn't Religions fault that she hears Voices...it isn't anyones fault...it is just sad...perhaps as a humanity what we need to deal with is the vast number of schizophrenics in society. You know, once upon a time they were commited to an institution by the state. I think the reasons why we don't do that anymore are obvious. I think PAs point is that it isn't fair to indict Relgion or religious constructs for the actions of schizophrenics. There are plenty of points on which Religion can be indicted...but this isn't one of them.

What makes you say she "interpreted"?
Does that mean any one hearing god is interpreting?
Or only the ones that do bad.

thanks Joc, i intend to find out what i can it just saddens me the whole thing, I agree we have to change some things in society.... geez my heart just weeps....

A woman who claimed God ordered her to make a human sacrifice chose to kill her three children instead of herself, making her guilty of murder, a prosecutor said Wednesday during closing arguments at the woman's trial. Joc thisis from the article , it seems she felt it was 'god'......

Point is, she's insane. She really belives God talked to her.

I just thought of something....you are right! No really you are more right than you know. PA...Sheri is right! I am being serious. There is a very definant area of Religion here that truly needs to be addressed. In Plano, Texas, only mere miles from where I live...a year or so ago (I'm sure you will all recall this) there was a woman who cut the arms off of her infant baby on the butcher block in the kitchen. She thought God wanted her to do it.

Now...Schizophrenics do indeed hear voices and they do indeed believe the voices are real....but WHY do they seem to tilt toward believing the Voices are Gods? Could it be because they are religious? Maybe...but could it also be (and this is where you should focus on religion Sheri) the fault of Numerous Televangelists claiming that God talks to them audibly?!
In the case of the Plano woman...she belonged to a church with a totally whacked out Preacher....I have listened to his Religous Puke several times while channel surfing...He says quite often...(if you listen they ALL do) I heard God say, Joc...and I said yes Lord...and as clear as if someone were standing there God said, Joc, I want you to build a Satellite station in the middle of Ethiopia....Or some such crap like that. Are they not always saying, In the name of Jesus, I heal you...In the name of Jesus...wait, there is a woman watching right now...she has a tumor in her left leg...In the Name of Jesus that Tumor is healed...

When as a humanity...when as a Nation...are we going to stop these Televangelists who prey upon the gullible and poor? Freedom of speech? I don't think so. Truth in advertising laws should be applied to comments such as God said to me!

Perhaps because those suffering from mental illnesses are much more prone to be led astray by the Wolves in Sheeps clothing, we should protect them from the False Preachers and maybe so many of them wouldn't have whacked out..God told me to do it thoughts!