If the Bible were written today...how would it fare???
Is it politically incorrect?
Would we have cause to sue??

There is sexual harrasment ... anti -women propaganda...is preached...anti-gay...is OK with slavery...is OK with Revenge killings/maimings...seems to justify violence..

How much of it is the true word of God/Jesus and his teachings ...and how much of it is power/revenge...controll of the masses..or secret agendas of the publishers of the time... ???

Who decided what went into the Bible and Why???

Did the prophets...saints..kings... deciples..really say and do all these things???

Or is it all an elaborate gossip... with only hints...from hearsay, of course...of what may have gone on!!!!

Have you read the Bible? I ask because then you might have an idea for yourself if the teachings are true.

Yes, I'm sure it would be considered politically incorrect, but thank God it would be political correctness has gotten way out of hand.

Pardon me, I don't understand the context of this part of your statement. Could you perhaps rephrase, please!?

I seem to have left a comma out. It should read: "...but thank God it would be, political correctness has gotten way out of hand."

Meaning I'm glad that the Bible would be and is considered politically incorrect because in order for it to be politically correct all of the moral teachings would have to be left out and so would most of the historical content and so would be most of the poetry and narrative.

Son HMM you can't mean that its politically incorrect to treat women as equals, to not shun and murder others, to sexually repress and create sexual predators.... , to openly shun and threaten anothers right to choose how they will experince spirituality, intolerance is used to harm others , it is violent and generates violence as a way to solve conflict, it openly pimps to worship a diety that is heinous in its behaviors............ it has blood dripping out of the pages, and its a fear construct designed to conditon one to follow, to be brain washed, in fear...... and after all is said and done you are seeing circumstnaces to be grateful.. Interesting to say the least...

No, I mean that telling people that sin is real, that there are moral ways to live, that there is good and bad, that there is a God, that there is good and evil, that doing what you want is not the right thing to do, are all politically incorrect, but are things that need to be taught.

Again, here you are showing your intolerance for Christian beliefs, Supra! Immediately you begin putting the worst possible light on anything that mentions the Bible. How can you consider yourself tolerant and happy when you have so much hatred for a person's way of life?

You keep insisting that you are OK with what I believe if that is what I choose to believe but at every turn you keep denigrating it, and trying to make me look like some idiot for actually believing this. You really should examine your soul closely, Supra, because it's obvious that you are holding on to some deep seated anger which completely colors your views. You will truly not be able to be happy and tolerant until you figure out a way to get rid of all that hatred and anger.

I have an answer, but, of course due to your hatred of Christianity you would never consider it and I am very sorry for that.

I really hope that some day you will be able to grow past this.

http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/bileffr.htm

hy We Need
Freedom From Religion
on Mother's Day ...
And Every Other Day
Ad run in The New York Times on May 8, 1992
by the Freedom From Religion Foundation
(Used With Permission)

For centuries the Bible has mandated the degradation of women and motherhood. Scripture has encouraged brutality toward children.

This Mother's Day, as in every year, sermons around the nation will pay homage to the "virtuous woman" of Proverbs 31, a self-sacrificing drudge who is praised for fearing "the Lord."

Why should women -- and the men who honor women -- respect and support a religion that preaches women's submission? The Bible does not elevate or honor womanhood, nor does it promote a safe and wholesome environment for children. The daily newspapers are full of tragic evidence of the harm of religion, of the human suffering that results from religious indoctrination and fear.

Why are physical and sexual child abuse and medical neglect multiplying in Christian homes, communities, and churches? Because the Bible sanctifies child abuse.

Why do women remain second-class citizens in our country? Why is there a religious-fostered war against women's rights? Because the Bible is a handbook for the subjugation of women.

There are more than 200 Bible verses that specifically belittle and demean women. Elizabeth Cady Stanton said:

"The Bible and the Church have been the greatest stumbling blocks in the way of women's emancipation."

Short Graphic Rule
The Bible degrades motherhood, marriage,
and women's reproductive functions:

Matthew 24:19



"[woe] unto them that are with child"

Luke 2:22



Mary is unclean after birth of Jesus

14:26



You cannot be Jesus's disciple unless you
hate your mother, father, and family

20:34-35



Better chance to get to heaven if you don't marry

I Corinthians
11:3-15



Man is the head of the woman; only man
is in the image and glory of God

14:24-35



Women, keep in silence; may only learn from husbands

Ephesians 5:22-33



"Wives, submit..."

Colossians 3:18





More "Wives, submit yourselves..."

I Timothy 2:9





Women adorn yourselves in shamefacedness

2:11-14





Women should learn in silence in all subjection;
Eve was sinful, Adam blameless

2:15
Ephesians 5:22 33





Women will not die in childbirth if they
"continue in faith, charity and holiness"

I Peter 3:17





Women should talk to husbands in fear

Genesis 2:22





Woman created from Adam's rib

3:16





"In sorrow thou shalt bring forth children."

Leviticus 12:1-4





Women who have sons are unclean 7 days

12:4-7





Women who have daughters are unclean 14 days

15:19-23





Menstrual periods are unclean

Numbers 5:13-31





Unpassable adulteress test encourages
jealousy and cruelty

31:17-35





"Virgins" are war booty

Deuteronomy
22:13-21






Bride who is not virgin must be stoned to death

22:28





Unmarried rape victim must marry her rapist

24:1





Men can divorce women on the spot

28:11-12





Delicate women will be forced to eat their children

I Samuel 21:4-5





Men are holy if they stay away from women

Job 14:1-4





"Who can bring a clean thing out of
an unclean [woman]? not one"

Psalm 51:5





"In sin did my mother conceive me"

Isaiah 13:16





"their wives [shall be] ravished"

Hosea 13:16





"Their infants shall be dashed in pieces and
their women with child shall be ripped up."

Short Graphic Rule

The Bible mandates child abuse:

Deuteronomy
21:18-21





"If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son...
Then shall his father and his mother lay hold
on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his
city... And all the men of his city shall stone him
with stones, that he die..."

23:2





"A bastard shall not enter into the congregation
of the Lord; even to his tenth generation..."

II Kings
2:23,24





"And as [Elijah] was going up by the way, there
came forth little children [who] and said unto him,
'Go up, thou bald head'... And he... cursed them
in the name of the Lord. And there came forth
two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty
and two children of them."

Proverbs
20:30





"The blueness of a wound cleanseth away evil:
so do stripes the inward parts of the belly."

19:18





"Chasten thy son while there is hope, and
let not thy soul spare for his crying."

22:15





"Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but
the rod of correction shall drive it far from him."

23:13-14





"Withhold not correction from the child: for if
thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.
Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt
deliver his soul from hell."

13:24





"He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but
he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes."

29:15,17





"The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child
left to himself bringeth his mother to shame....
Correct thy son, and he shall give thee rest."

Hebrews 12:6-8





"For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and
scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.... But
if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are
partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons."

12:11





"Now no chastening for the present seemeth to
be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward
it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness
unto them which are exercised thereby."

Psalm 137:9





"Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth
thy little ones against the stones."

Short Graphic Rule

http://www.religioustolerance.org/intol_bibl.htm



http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2006/11/02/1162339989150.html

To whom do these things need be taught!? For whom are the words meant to be "real" !? And of which god would it be speaking when it should be taught there is a god.

Per, the OT of the thread, if the bible were written today to whom would it speak!? Remembering jesus mention of why he spoke in parables, and that his words were not meant for all to hear or understand his words!? And if it were drafted so as to be PC, it would necessitate abdication of slavery, human sacrifice, genocide, infanticide, misogyny and homophobia, would be omitted from the text. Because none of those things are "PC" at all. So then, if it were written to be PC, it wouldn't really resemble the bible at all, for the entire context - OT & NT-would be altered, from the beginning. Wouldn't it!?

Hahahaha, yes.

For that matter, so are the writings of Thomas Jefferson and George Washington. You should see what they say about the Indians.

Oh, and Teddy Roosevelt.

Yes, people from the past were very politically incorrect by today's standards. No doubt about that.




Some yes, some no, some maybe.

I wonder if the person who put that together stopped and asked himself if all of the words around the parts of verses they were pulling out meant anything.

That would require them to actually READ the Bible, so I seriously doubt it.

Using the term "politically incorrect" is politically incorrect.

.... why???

But are wars being fought...lives taken... quoting verbatim.. Thomas Jefferson and George Washington. and Teddy Roosevelt???

OK ...they probably are !!!

Eg like the great misquoted ..""God helps those who help themselves!!"... isn't that the motto of many of the powerfull nations???

http://www.deadyetliving.com/wordpress/200...elp-themselves/

http://www.acts17-11.com/cows_helps.html

The Bible is full of contradictions... and people seem choose the passages ...or manipulate various excerpts.. that suit their agendas... and seem to get away with it...or have a good attempt at it as it's supposedly god's??? law...

Admittedly we've come a long way since when the bibles were first written...times..situations have changed... we've become more tolerant...wiser than those supposedly alledged wise ones of the old days... we have a stronger sense of right and wrong...and more compassion... yet there are 'Hell Stirers' out there that hide under the petticoats of various religions... to manipulate the gullable to do their bidding ...not God's... and preach the realities of the dark days...

Why is it still working??? It has me puzzeled...!!!

I was being sarcastic...but its till kind of true lol.

Has anyone ever wondered why that term is even valid!? "politically incorrect" When has politics ever set the example of correctness, itself, so as to claim anything else could be construed as incorrect , by it's standards!? I mean c'mon!

the thing I find funny is how ppl say the bible is anti women......


the bible teaches and I quote .Husbands love your wife as christ loved the church" unquote....

about this slavery issue youre forgettting that it wasnt like our historical slavery with the europeans and the africans

how/where is the bible controdictive?

In reply to the question, how is the bible contradictory:
http://members.aol.com/ckbloomfld/






There's more to that scripture you know. Ephesians 5:33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.
Keeping that in mind, consider this: Deuteronomy 25:11-12 ( Ewww where's the dress, where's the veil!? And don't forget to pack that tourniquet! )

With regards to slavery, god told the hebrews they could own slaves of any race,save those members of their own tribe. Therefore, it's not like our historical slavery with Europeans (one tribe) owning African's (another tribe)? How about freed slaves in this country, owning slaves!? How about that virtually every race on earth has enslaved most every other. Whites owning whites, (Think "white slave trade" that exists today) blacks owning blacks, blacks owning whites, whites owning blacks. Colors owning colors. Different colors and the same. See: Ephesians 6:5.

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iv been to controdictive sites most examples they use are taken outta text....and they have no foundation...but no where have i read that it is controdictive..i guess if you want to twist it and tie it in knots then thats still not in the bible..but that is you yourself doing it not the word...so its not controdictive but the one making it out to be by twisting it into something other than what it is..as for the women....they are a glory to their husband..they are the crown that sits on their head...like at king...all kings where a crown...they would not be king without one...yes a woman is to be in subjection to their husband he is the ruler of the home...he is the leader...he is the image of god...but he must be the image ...in subjection to god ..ppl like to take the text and twist around to make it fit their fight...but it is not possiable to win when it is wrong when your using gods word...it will turn around back unto you...you being whomever would choose to turn against the word...not a particular person...

The Bible was written and compiled by many different MEN, none of which are Jesus. Therefore it has human error and bias throughout it. There are parts that contradict other parts. That is because one chapter is written by one guy, and another chapter are letters found from someone else, and so on. Take it for what it's worth. The Bible isn't about its details, rather the overall lesson/message. The sexism in there may reflect that who wrote the chapter in question, but it does not mean it is the word of the lord.

the bible was written by many different men.all scripture was written by men inspired by the holy ghost.jhn17.17-20 gods word is truth and the apostales words. 2 peter 1.20,21 bible is word of god, no private interpretation.jhn 1.1-5 jesus is the word. gods word was not changed and it never contradicts itself.when we are in darkness and try to come into the light it is just sometimes blinding to our eyes

Stop that right now. The Bible is a compliation that throughout time has had parts both added and taken away. There would even be councils that would vote on what came in and what came out. I bet all the people voting were inspired by the holy ghost, right? Even if some or most of the chapters are the word of the lord communicated through John and the others who wrote those chapters, do you really think that there aren't some chapters that aren't...how do I say this...as fully inspired as others?

The number that the Romans did on the Bible themselves kills much of its credibility as the "word of the lord". I had this conversation once with a very intelligent church-going man who would discuss science vs religion with me, and he said that the Bible is protected by the lord so that it was always kept pure. After reading it (and I certainly have), I think that's not the case whatsoever, but go ahead and believe that if you will. Just close your eyes and keep the faith.

make me. na na na na na .really ,the word of god has been changed huh.all messed up, completely impossible to understand,self contradicting.seems to me if this was true it would be so easy on our flesh to live by the word.but maybe thats it ,its just easeir to cling to these lame excuses not to

Slow down, I never said it was completely impossible to understand or anything like that. As for being contradicting, not entirely, just that some parts contradict with others, and they DO. I'm not ripping on the Bible here. Some people do that on these boards, I'm not one of them, in a sense I'm sticking up for the Bible, but not to the degree people like you do. The Bible isn't a magic book filled with truths and published by angels. It's written, compiled, edited, and translated over a vast period of time by hundereds of people. I bet what we have now only vaguely resembles that which was the "Bible" 1500 years ago.

But I don't wanna bash on your beliefs, and I apologize for coming across that way. I don't want to ruin your belief in the magic of the good book any more than I want to ruin a child's belief in the magic of Santa Claus.

Well, one can either look at the true history of a book that it's own agents admit was edited. Councils of Nicea and Geneva, as examples. Or they can claim it's absolutely accurate, has never been changed what so ever and disregard missing books of the bible that are known to have been omitted. Which would then say the book has been changed, and edited , augmented and in the process of trying to keep a consistency in those books left to be considered canonized, there would have to have been something done to fill the void of the omission of books like "Mary" , The Book of I Infancy, II Infancy, Magnesians, and the Apostles Creed, as just a few examples.

So if those books are not part of todays bibles, why not!? Where did they go, why did they go? If the bible is the word of god, why were books inspired as they were, as are said to be those same books contained in todays bible, not worthy of consideration as part of the "official" word of god!?

And besides, if one clings to a book to teach and inspire them to goodness, they are investing their faith in the book. Seeking from within it's pages that which they imagine is in deficit within themselves. And if one lives their life like that, they'll live the life of the book, because they don't know or trust that there is something written of goodness, mercy and peace, within themselves.

There is no changing the mind that will not see, all books are written by man. And if man is damnable by nature, what can man write of god, and expect it to be considered wholly/holy infallible!? When the words on the page are intended to save fallible man from himself. When it is but himself that is his own salvation or fault. With or without the book.

np on the bashing thing...the bible isnt a book of magic..........and santa.......its much easier on a child if they are told the truth..that there is no santa...like to stop that magic(lie) right there...


ever thought maybe those books you mentioned wasnt the true word of god hence the reason they arent in there? i dunno justa thought...

its not the pages...its the word of god...its his word..not just the book...

Council at Niceae had nothing to do with the NT canon. It wrote the first part of the Nicene creed, exiled Arius, and issued 20 canons.
I know there are a couple of infancy gospels, but I've never heard them called I Infancy and II Infancy. I've never heard of Magnesians.
Why isn't book X and book Y in the bible? Heretical, late, and never used by the Church are good guesses depending on what you are talking about.

It's his word? Those words were written down by men, that said they were specially chosen to do so as they were inspired to hear god speak the words. So then, if the words spoken advocate slavery, genocide, human sacrifice. If they speak , as gods word, from god and he says he is a jealous god, a vengeful god, a wrathful god, (sins in the human realm) what then is that truth the bible speaks, except of a god that is either no better than the men his words are said to offer salvation. Or perhaps the truth is the words are written by men, that impart a persona onto god that then gives men dominion over other men in the name of that god on the page!?

Because how can a higher power be as lowly as those that it claims need saving from themselves?!

And SoL, I am aware of the Council of N. I was interjecting those examples in my statement that , contrary to what was said earlier, the bible has been "edited". The books I listed, a few of a far longer list, are the work of christian apostles. As I'm sure you are aware, for approximately 30 years after the death of christ, all information about him and his works was transmitted orally. Thus the first "christians" , mostly jews, lived their lives among like minded individuals in self-sufficient communes. But when the conversions began, in Europe, Asia Minor , etc.. by Paul and his disciples christianity spread into most every facet of world society. But because it was an oral tradition it was hard to keep up that mode of spreading the word. So it all came to be written down.
Hundreds of years later, the movement became organized into a church and one of the first priorities in that regard was to organize "official" biblical texts. Of which two major councils in North Africa, Hippo and Carthage, established the canons of the OT , NT and Apocrypha. Of course, since that time there were changes to the OT and the Apocrypha was dropped from that Protestant bible at the Council of Trent (1545 to 1563) All in all it took nearly 200 years to finally reach an accord as to the biblical canon and especially what books would be included and called "the gospels". The books I listed in my example, amid others , are those books that were excluded by the patriarchs in this process.

Therefore, it is untrue that the bible has never been edited, nor changed, nor books omitted. Many books or written transcriptions from the oral history, have been left out of what is considered the "official" bible. Such as those that related accounts of the life of jesus. Like the Gospel of Nicodemus that gives an account of jesus descent into hell between the crucifixioin and resurrection. Including the description of jesus expelling satan from hell. But that was excluded by those authorities that were to decide what books would be canonized and what would not. (Two of the most powerful patriarchs in this regard Augustine and Jerome. Also Turtullian, Origen, Clement of Alexandria and Iranaeus. All men that took it upon themselves to decide which, of all that was then written down from that first oral history, would be the "official words of the god and the bible")

Further evidence of this was affirmed by manuscripts like the Nag Hammadi and the "Dead Sea Scrolls". So, for all those accounts to exist, and that which exists today as the "official" bible, is proof the bible as it now stands is not the full accounting of all that is said to have been inspired unto man by "gods word".

That's all I'm saying.

Bad example then. First Nicaea did nothing of the sort.
Christianity had organized itself into a hierarchical organization very quickly. By then end of the first century there were bishops running around. I don't know how you got that establishing official texts was one of the Church's first priorities. The issue didn't even get an ecumenical council for it. Probably one of the few reasons it came up at the Third Synod of Carthage is that St. Augustine ran across some gnostic texts in Carthage.


Anyway, it looks like you have very different idea of what should be considered scripture that that of myself and most of the Church fathers.
Something to keep in mind. Sola Scriptura is a Protestant innovation. Some of what is found in various books not included in the Bible are in Church tradition.

The Romans voted things in and out of the Bible! As I said earlier the guy I had this discussion with before said something similar, that God ensured the Bible stays holy and pure no matter what. I can't buy that. The Romans voted things in and out, God had nothing to do with it...hell we're talking about the same people here who voted to nail God's only son up to a piece of lumber. If God was making sure they did such a good job on the Bible votings, where was he for that one?

Ah then what did they do?

You are assuming God wasn't in it. The God of the Bible is an omniscient God-- a God who knows EVERYTHING-- and has a plan that not only takes man ito account, but actually works through man, so, if He wants His message delivered, and delivered through man, it will be, if He has said the Bible is His word and no one may add or take away from it, then everything that is there is what He meant to be there.

gods word has not been changed in any way to alter the message from him to us. his word is truth.god is a spirit.he manifest himself to us in many ways..like through his word..if you read it it states this..for instance you say the ppl nailed gods only son to a piece of lumber...he already knew this, spoke of this , prepared for this, brought here for this..it wasnt ppl...it was hiim..his purpose..his plan...it was god manifested in the flesh offering himself..a pure..holy..sacrifice ...now with the romans...they where the first to brake off from the apostles teachings ,doctrines..they created a chruch..religion of their own..
romans 3:4 let gods word be true and everyman a liar...we can not alter the word in any way..we can not have any private interpratations of the meaning of teh scriptures..they make us wise unto salvation......this is where we are at...this is why we have the interest in this subject.......Salvation......this is why we need gods pure and holy word unaltered.....Salvation....it is gods plan too.......it was planned before our time just like the crucifiction...theres only one plan...gods plan...all others come as thiefes and robbers theres only one door and the bible says Jesus is the door and there is no conrtidictions to this..that i can find..


why cant you buy....See...understand....that god ensures that the bible stays holy and pure no matter what???

Exiled Arius, wrote the first part of the Nicene Creed, and issued 20 canons concerning more or less trivial items such as prohibiting priests from castrating themselves and telling everyone to not kneel during Sunday liturgies and a few other times of the year.

Would the 'ideal' of a perfect, all loving God approve of the Hebrew and Christian God Yahweh? No, the ideal of God would not approve of God if the old testament is a true accounting of Yahweh. The evidence shows that the God of the monotheists as written in the bible is a man made story, whether it is the story of Jesus or the God Yahweh of the Hebrews.

I write this after being a Catholic for 50+ years. What caused my change in heart about God? Was it God's refusal to answer a self centered prayer...No. Was it all the evil in the world...No. My change in heart with my belief in God came from 'real study' of the dogma and the books claimed to be the written words of God with a desire to get closer to God. But, the more I studied, the further from God my studies took me. But this is only a by product of the study of truth, for if the study leads to a certain direction one must follow it, if one is truth based. And if one is not truth based one makes up fantasy and excuses and lives a delusional life.

If we look at logical and philosophical arguments for God they add up to zero as each one of these arguments can be argued for or against God

Ontological Argument +
Ontological Argument (--)
Cosmological Argument +
Cosmological Argument (--)
Teleological Argument +
Teleological Argument (--)
-----------------------------------------
Total = ZERO

As such, we need to look deeper into what the various religions of the monotheist say to find the truth. There are four books claiming to be the word of God. they are the Old Testament, New Testament, Qur'an and the Book of Mormon. (OT, NT, Q and BOM) All these books conflict, yet all claim to be the perfect word of God? Why doesn't God make clear which one of these books to follow so there is no misunderstanding? After all, a mistake in direction yield everlasting torture in hell? Since God wont answer, we will have to answer for God by asking some questions to get at the truth that God was invented by man. In short we will judge God by the ideals of God. Then we can see clearly these words of God were not written by an all perfect and all loving, all good God but were just written by men claiming to be God.

Some religious advocates say it is presumptuous of anyone to 'judge' God. But, such persons also judge God when they say God is good? In order to judge something good it must still be judged? From my studies, I have judged God as a creation or fantasy of man's mind and a God that would refuse to tell the direction for a person to take and then take joy in torturing that person for a mistake that the person could not avoid is definitely bad.

God was no always so silent with direction. If we go back to the OT we can see God communicated extensively with the Hebrews. God directed them specifically with how to design and build things and how to worship him through burnt offerings and penance. God was very detailed with his directions about unclean women during menses and how the Hebrews should keep their slaves. All quotes courtesy of http://www.evilbible.com/ (BTW, they banned me from their forums...so much for freethinkers.)

"When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property." Exodus 21:20-21

God approving of slavery? God not approving of the Egyptians keeping slaves yet is OK for the Hebrews to keep slaves? Again not a perfect God. If we read further we will see God very bigoted and condemning of all other nationalities except his chosen people the Hebrews. What makes the world think such a bigoted God would accept them when God had such hatred for others he supposedly created?

If we go to more modern times and the Christian dogma where God offered his son to be tortured and killed in order for God to forgive our sins? What do we do when we forgive another? Do we kill our son or daughter or just forgive? How much more a perfect God could have just forgiven us without killing his son? But God seemed to emphasize the killing children in his words to his faithful as we can see in these OT quotes.

"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." Ezekiel 9:5-7

"The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered." O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don't give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children." Hosea 9:11-16

"Suppose a man has a stubborn, rebellious son who will not obey his father or mother, even though they discipline him. In such cases, the father and mother must take the son before the leaders of the town. They must declare: 'This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious and refuses to obey. He is a worthless drunkard.' Then all the men of the town must stone him to death. In this way, you will cleanse this evil from among you, and all Israel will hear about it and be afraid." Deuteronomy 21:18-21

What happened to this vocal God that seemed to die with the authors of the Old Testament, for no one ever hears a peep from God? Did God die with the writers? BTW, if God was a perfect designer, should he have not made women 'unclean' and not have menses and that way God could have saved some breath and cut his 600+ commandants to the Hebrew down by one? See: http://members.ozemail.com.au/~adamgosp/otcomm.htm

God even commanded the people how to bake bread, (with human excrement) discriminate against the handicapped, kill the faithful of other religions and how much money to pay to rape young women.

Each day prepare your bread as you would barley cakes. While all the people are watching, bake it over a fire using dried human dung as fuel and then eat the bread. For this is what the LORD says: "Israel will eat defiled bread in the Gentile lands, where I will banish them!" Then I said, "O Sovereign LORD, must I be defiled by using human dung? For I have never been defiled before. From the time I was a child until now I have never eaten any animal that died of sickness or that I found dead. And I have never eaten any of the animals that our laws forbid." "All right," the LORD said. "You may bake your bread with cow dung instead of human dung." Ezekiel 4:12-15

"No one whose testicles have been crushed or whose penis has been cut off may be admitted into the community of the Lord." Deuteronomy 23:2

"If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her." Deuteronomy 22:28-29

"If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst." Deuteronomy 13:7-12

Yes, the writers for God's word will be able to show you how the God they claim to be perfect is not perfect and just an extension of imperfect man's mind. If you read the bible with an open mind that is logical and rational you will see this for yourself. It is only when we make excuses for God that God is relieved from being a true God.

In the OT it says God is a 'jealous God' and requires worship.

"You shall not carve idols for yourselves in the shape of anything in the sky above or on the earth below or in the waters beneath the earth; you shall not bow down before them or worship them. For I, the Lord, your God, am a jealous God, inflicting punishment for their father's wickedness on the children of those who hate me, down to the third and fourth generation" Exodus 20:4-5

Once someone 'requires' anything outside themselves the persons peace will be disturbed. Yet the popular belief that God is perfect...the two (jealousy and perfection) don't go together. In addition such a God would not pass the peace test. If the God did not receive worship the God's peace would be disturbed from having demands and not getting those demands fulfilled. Then the God would have its peace disturbed even further by torturing the person for everlasting eternity since that person did not provide the worship the God demanded. Does all this smack of a perfect being, perfectly at peace or just man impersonating God

See:

http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=133.0

You see, many people do with religion and their religious fixations the same as the compulsive gambler does with their fantasy.

Excerpt From: Gamblers Anonymous pamphlet "The dream world of a compulsive gambler." A lot of time is spent creating images of great and wonderful things they are going to do as soon as they make "the big win."... No one can convince them that their great schemes will not come true. They believe they will, for without this dream world, life for them would not be tolerable.

The truth is that which does not change. Man made religion is always changing. This phenomena of putting a spin on truth goes back to the earliest formations of the church when it was voted on by presumptuous individuals as to how to describe God and the trinity. You see it was all voted on and the proponent that had the 'best spin' on it got the credit for Nicene Creed. But in reality no one has a clew about this subject. Want a modern day example of such spiritual sickness, spin and lies?

"Roman Catholic Church Considers Abolishing Limbo Theory" A commission that met at the Vatican last week is expected to recommend to Pope Benedict XVI that the teaching of limbo be dropped. The Roman Catholic Church may abolish the concept of limbo – the place some Catholics believe the spirit of babies go if they die before being baptized

Snip from: http://www.christianpost.com/article/20051209/22492.htm

But it is impossible to have a rational discussion with most religious devotees when they insist on irrationality as their first line of defense. We are rational beings, logical beings, yet belief in God can only come about through irrational, non logical thought. Would a God that created rational, logical beings require such beings to follow irrational fantasy in order to believe in him? An example? While discussing fossils and ancient coal with a Christian he claimed that fossils and ancient coal are not really old and 'planted by the devil' to trick people from believing in God? this also recalls the book of Enoch, a book that was left out of the bible by the powers that decided what went into it when it was first formed. This book described many fantastic claims about how Eve was tricked by the devil masquerading as an angel. Would God create such subterfuge as planted fake fossils in order to trick his loved ones only to condom them to burning and torture for all eternity in hell because they cannot find out the rational and logical truth? Yes, such an unjust God would if your God is that of a sickly, delusional, religious devotee that believe is such fantasy.

Even when we discuss the story of Jesus, is it rational for God to have to kill his only begotten son in order to forgive us? What do we do when we forgive another? Do we kill our mother, son or daughter in order to forgive another person? Yet, Christians cling to this fantasy. Jesus was never born on December 25 and in fact there is no evidence Jesus was ever born at all. Christians adopted Christmas from the pagan December 25 holiday in order to promote their own agenda, just as they did with Halloween.

For further discussion of the Jesus myth see:

http://www.vexen.co.uk/books/jesusmysteries.html
http://www.atheists.org/christianity/myth.html
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/fabrication.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_as_myth
http://home.ca.inter.net/~oblio/home.htm
http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/7748/106446
http://www.abc.net.au/religion/stories/s1517078.htm
http://www.atheist-community.org/library/a...read.php?id=700
http://www.christianorigins.com/goguel/
http://www.bede.org.uk/price1.htm
http://www.objectivethought.com/atheism/jesusmyth.html
http://pages.ca.inter.net/~oblio/jesus.html
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical...icus/jesus.html
http://home.iae.nl/users/lightnet/creator/jesusmyth.htm
http://rationalrevolution.net/articles/ori...hristianity.htm


"Theology is a superstition - Humanity is a religion" - Robert G. Ingersol


BTW, what does work if all religion is created man made fantasy? See my previous discussion of this topic: http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=4.0

WOW !!!!!!!

Yep!!! so what do we do now??? Call a world conference and rewrite the bible.... ???

I gather modern Law books are a bible of sorts... full of decisions of modern ways of living correctly ... fairly.... throw in a bit of personal developement and motivational ideas information on feeling good and acheiving your best possible...and some reminders about taking care of and giving thanks for natures' Gods gifts and others.. mention a few of those who have lived well as examples... and maybe we're on a winner...

They Vatican controlled what went into the Bible because they controlled Gutenbergs printing press.

What went into the Bible was decided when the Vatican was still a graveyard.

With all respect, that doesn't really say anything.

Perhaps dates, references, etc... would be more helpful!?

http://www.maplenet.net/~trowbridge/NT_Hist.htm

Late fourth century was when there were a few synods about it. Probably unofficially decided sometime earlier. Topics are usually not brought up at synods or councils until there is a problem with it.
www.ntcanon.org is fun. Very useful table.

Thank you CS & SLL for the links.

Hm, I dunno, I sounds simple enough...

Well, as far as I can see, where all that gets skewed is when it is said god speaks to a select few so they may be author-ized to tell everyone god spoke. That trust, being as huge as it is, authorized by god to speak on his behalf in print, can only be made unholy and impure, because gods words were given into the hands and minds of men, born with ego's the size of cathedrals and unholy visions that make believe world domination is godly.