My mother's first husband, a member of the Belgian Resistance, was captured and thrown into Breendonk torture camp, south of Brussels.
He was executed two weeks before D-Day.
Yet, he is not counted among the "6 million" because he wasn't Jewish.
It's a damnable travesty.
The fact is, an estimated 11 or 12 million people died in the camps. So, that means at least half of them were not Jewish.
But all you ever hear about are the 6 million Jews.
I don't dispute this number, or the occurrence, but let's include ALL in the number.
I correct people when I hear them say, "6 million" and I am probably a pain in the patoot for doing so, but I feel the slight has gone on far too long.
It has been said that the Jews were the only ones sent to the camps, regardless of their age, from babies to old people. This would have you believe that if you were Jewish, you were automatically singled out. Not entirely true. If you were Roma (Gypsy) or Polish you also were marked for total annihilation, from babies to the elderly.
And if you were mentally retarded or handicapped, off you went!
My mother knew a kindly old blind man in Brussels before the war. When the Germans came in, he was forced onto a truck and disappeared. She later learned he was killed at a death camp --- solely because he was blind.
Other "undesirables" included homosexuals, members of the 7th Day Adventist faith, and a host of other groups.
Just as many non-Jews as Jews died in the camps.

It's like the French Resistance. All you ever hear about is the French Resistance.
The truth is, there were active Resistance groups in Holland, Norway, Belgium, Sweden, Czechoslovakia, Romania, Italy, Austria and even Germany --- and many other countries in both the European and Pacific theaters.
But only the French Resistance seems to get any credit.
Why?
Because before the war even ended, France had a huge publicity machine at work, extolling the heroic sacrifices of the French Resistance. This "stole the thunder" of equally worthy Resistance groups from other nations.
It has been said that the victor gets to write the history books.
It should also be added that some victors get to trot out their publicity machine --- often before the shooting stops.

Thank you so much Gatofeo. You said what I wanted to say but, in much better words.
The Holocaust is synonymous with Jewish. A lot of victims (of other nationalities) are unheard of and do not get the recognization that they deserve.
If you go to concentration camp Mauthausen, they have plaques on the walls from many many different countries. In the outside world, these victims seem to be forgotten though, which is terribly sad.

There is no worthwhile evidence what so ever against the holocaust, it really did happen and no not all the victims where Jews, there were Communists, Catholics, Gypsies, Slavs, homosexuals and anyone they generally didn't like. It really did happen, there are pictures and video off the period. Only a retard would deny such a think happening. Your Gatofeo, others who where systematically slaughtered should also be remember as well.

I have a few original photographs of the holocaust, my friends father was in the WWII, he photographed a great deal as he was in recon.

\


I have to disagree with this. The many Germans and Austrians in the country who allowed the problem to continue are just as responsible, if not more so, than the craziness of Hitler. Hitler was crazy but I don't think he himself actually killed anyone, or ordered specific killings. In general he killed. But the members of the military who carried out his orders are responsible for their actions. And worse, the regular people in the countries that sat there doing sweet nothing while people were being murdered all around them are just as guilty. If you have to deal with being called a Nazi from time to time, that's small potatoes for the indifference done by your countrymen.

Denmark for example refused to turn over the Jews.

My grandfather liberated one of the concentration camps. he was never the same when he came home, very quiet and withdrawn. he couldn't bear to look at stripey pajamas, they reminded him of the uniforms the prisoners had to wear.

You want to know why? - simple, because we all conspired in it. Europe conspired with the Nazis in their demonic plans. Whilst jews were being persecuted in Germany in 1939 what was the rest of the free world doing about it? Where we offering all jews in Europe sanctuary? NO. Britain refused the Jews entry into Britain whilst we knew what was happening to them. America was turning back shiploads of terrified jews in the full knowledge that they would be sent back to germany to an unimaginable fate. What did France do? - helped to round up jews and pack them onto the French run French railway system direct to the death camps. What did the Dutch do? What did Spain do? What did Greece,Italy and every other country in Europe do to stop the Holocaust? - NOTHING. In fact many helped in its prosecution.
The British RAF was actually photographing the death camps at the height of their operation but never recieved orders to bomb them and the chimneys of the death camps continued to pour out their smoke right up to the moment the Russians arrived.
We constantly debate the Holocaust of the jews because we are ashamed of our collusion in it and as a result we question if it ever happened. The guilty always deny the truth.

The Brits decided that bombing the camps is not a good solution (with which I agree)... Railway lines were hard to hit and are easy to repair, and the camp's infrastructures could also be easily reconstructed in no time after a raid. Do you realise how hard it was to hit something as "small" as a gas chamber at that time? The bombers had hard times hitting complete factory complexes. It would have been more likely for them to destroy some of the huts the prisioners were living in then causing any significant damage to the important cmp facilities... They made a decision, that the bombers should concentrate on breaking Germany, which will also put an end to the camps, permanently.

thank you for proving my point.

I don't think that achieving the goals (stopping the genocide) by indirect means is the same as doing nothing... Still, I motly agree with you, that all of Europe ought to be ashamed of what had happened, not just the Germans. We, in Hungary committed the same crimes, and no-one feels guilty about it. The French were, as you said, magnificent collaborators, and the British? well, the appeasers were a bunch of lunatics, and after old Chamberlain finally left, Britain had to fight for its own survival and had no time to think about the Holocaust until about 1944.

Still, no-one was conspiring with the Nazis in 1939 for the Holocaust. The British appeasers were trying to "feed the crocodile in the hope that it will eat them last", and were so old-fashioned and narrow-minded that they thought that Hitler might be a reasonable figure with whom one can have peace. The French were simply ignorant as usual (and only started collaborating after their invasion by Germany) the Spanish had a fascist dictator named Francisco Franco in command, and were just out of a terrible civil war. Italy was also fascist ( despite being the main European ally of the Reich, they were not really keen on exterminating people, though), Greece, Holland and Belgium were powerless and small, The Eastern countries were mostly allies of Germany (or were occupied by it). There was no conspiracy, only mixture of idiocy and ignorance.

Most of the people who deny the holocaust are neo-Nazis who are not actually anti-semitic or racist but believe in Nazism's political aspects only. They want to take away from the bad image the Nazis had by twisting the facts around and trying to prove that the genocide never occurred.

My issue is with people wanting to make it illegal to deny it happened. If thinking it never happened is so obviously a stupid idea and no one in their right mind would believe it, then let people say/think what they want (Imagine that, freedom of speech!).

The very fact that some Governments are outlawing people denying is enough to raise eyebrows, as if they are so afraid of people even question it's existence then maybe they DO have something to hide.

So to reaffirm my stance. Yes I think the holocaust happened, but I'm not afraid/threatened when people deny it because I know they are wrong and am secure enough in my own beliefs. I am way more afraid of the Governments jailing people for their opinions (Sound familar?) then I am of Neo-Nazi's.

Explain this then - why would the german government admit to something so terrible that wasn't true? What is it they're hiding? Statements like yours are disgusting and you should consider the fact that there are people who lived through times like this that are still alive today. It is illegal to say it never happened so future generations are aware that it should never happen again.

Words like yours have consequence, and give credence to what neo nazis claim. Think about what you say, or just don't post.

edit - and governments do not want to "jail people for what their opinions" - but how can you have a law if you're not going to enforce it?

i read earlier the question what happened during hitlers childhood?

im not totaly sure about this but i think his mom died on the table of a jewish hospital

Ive never met anyone who denys it happened, and if i did i would provide them with evidence!

That's pretty harsh. Actions like banning saying it didn't happen are what give credence to the neo nazis claim. I think that's what a lot of people are saying.

No one should be jailed for saying something or having an opinion. Its just words. You want to jail someone for starting a neo nazi group that's something else. But just voicing an opinion is different.

And given the subject matter, you don't think "maybe they government has something to hide" is a flippantly moronic comment? Damn right I'm harsh.

He's saying that he feels that by denying the right to speak out about it, it gives the impression that the country has something to hide about the actual facts regarding the holocaust. I don't think that's a flippantly moronic comment. I think he's right. That's a spot on comment. I took it a different way.

And there's no need for name calling no matter how entitled to your opinion you think you are.

Everyone should put there opinions across in the correct manner, otherwise this thread will be in danger of being closed.

It is only illegal in a couple of countries, for example the holocaust did not happen... there i said it, will i get in troube? No.

Those that deny the "Holocaust" are usually anti-semites, as opposed to ignorant.

Congrats on the 1000!

I kinda deny it, since you can never trust the government. They always want you in their grips, in their darkness, so you can never see the reality.
The holocaust may have been true, but 6 million jews dying was definitely an exaggeration. They want to make the germans see as devils, while the american government is the biggest satan itself. America is trying to look as the good guy. There are so many ***SNIP*** government conspiracies that you want to feel like stopping all these craziness and bring good to the world. There are natural cures for every disease, but the government doesnt want you to know about them and and keep taking artificial drugs 4 the rest of your life. It is all about money. That green piece of crap.

it's kinda hard to deny the holocaust when your neighbor stands next to you with a tattoo on thier arm and a photo of themselves as children and recongnizable behind barb wire in a concentration camp with others . having being the sole survivor of thier family.

why is it denied by some? ignorance or hate or both. nothing short there of. they are the ones that need to spend a day with a survivor of the camps. And not all were jews. it was anyone thought to be inferior.

when you look and see the atrocities of the world. from female genital mutilation ,starvation and mass murder to the raping of a 14 yr old and the killing of her family to pedophilia and serial killers.

is it really so unbelieveable? As beautiful as Man he can be just as evil.

My grandmother fled the Ukraine right before the Russians killed and starved millions of them off - her family got left behind because american passport holders were allowed to leave. ( he family had moved to the states , she was born here , but for financial reasons they moved back to the Ukraine) Her brother was the only one out of 11 to make it out.

some say that didn't happen either.

Wow infinitemind. You got any proof for that claim or you just blowing it out your behind. If there were a natural cure I think someone would have found them by now and everyone would know.


As for the denial of the Holocaust: people should be able to speak their mind, but there comes a time when you can not let people spread completely false information because if its spread enough it becomes truth to thos listening. Jail is not the answer. Fines might shut them up though.

Maybe next time you should read my entire post instead of just attacking a "what if" sentence. Also to answer your brilliant question of "but how can you have a law if you're not going to enforce it?" my response is it shouldn't be a law, it's stupid.

So next time before you have an emotional breakdown read the entire post k? Thanks!

Some food for thought.

"If we do not believe in freedom of speech for those we despise we do not believe in it at all." - Noam Chomsky

Thanks for defending me, I'm glad someone took the time to read the entire post.

I'm almost entirely sure the Holocaust happened...I know of a few people who liberated the camps during WW2.

There is of course no doubt in my mind that the holocaust happened but to imprison in solitary the historian David Irvin to question whether it happened to me is an afront to a freedom of expression and frankly is Stalinist fascism. If an eccentric wants to have strange views then so be it, now Irvins books are selling again because in a way he has gained publicity.

I'm old enough to remember that jews were despised in Britain despite how innocent some people of my age and older may seem, now they are full of hypocritical crap, I can remember Oswald Moseley and the 'black shirts'. My grandfather died in poverty as a musician, he had once worked for Elstree studio's but found it difficult to gain employment as a musician in the music halls in the 30s because he wasn't jewish and most of the music halls were taken over by jews who looked after themselves

well mr chalder always remember that racism only travels in one direction and only white hetero sexual males can be seriously considered as racists.
what your granfather experienced was most likely a mis understanding and he may have over estimated his own talents.
what you are suggesting sounds as if the jewish community was biased are you an anti semite?

Why do people close there eyes when scary parts of movies come on.

Thats bull try talking to european females over the age of 40.

well, its 4 pages thread and no way in hell I will read all the replies...
anyway, denying this event will be affected by the person him/her self, what I mean...if you are from the arab world you will deny it for sure, thinking of the israeli-arabian conflict..that was just an example and you can apply it for all

I dont know whether I'm an anti semite, I dont come in contact with jewish people very often. I know I had a good jewish lawyer when I got divorced and my favourite comedy show is Seinfeld. I did however find the behaviour of a New York jew utterly disgraceful when in Norway at a market but then I find a lot of my own countrymens behaviour disgraceful abroad. The story of my grandfather was told to me by my father and I have even seen film of my grandfather in an old black and white film playing in a band, so I think he must have been of a good standard, he died when my father was about 10 my grandmother died at the age of 33 when my father was 5. My father was an anti semite, as a child he would tell me how to distinguish a jew and the Anglo Saxon names they would use to hide their jewishness. He would also show who was jewish in the world of show business in politics and the banks, he would also show me the influence of the jews in America. He once told me of a time in the German POW camps that English soldiers were recruited into the German army and would be know as the English Free Korp and that when they were captured some were stoned to death as they entered train wagons by local Belgium people whilst the British guards stood by and did nothing to stop them, he told me of this many years ago. You see the Germans knew that a lot of the British soldiers loathed jews and communists and thats a fact that would make a lot of people very uncomfortable even the Royal family and some others in the ruling and working classes of the time. That my friend was information that was suppressed.

I'm not a rascist for giving facts and this is no reflection of my own views but with the experiences I've known I think it has enriched my views to understand historical events probably better than most. I see no reason why I would resent any jew, infact I envy them for their culture and togetherness which makes them so strong and nowadays proud to be jewish with no longer a need for some to hide their jewishness. So maybe the question as to whether I'm an anti semite should really be...I have no reason to be and I think I'm wiser than my father. I do find though that the holocaust is an event that is far too often brought up by the BBC time and again, infact our children know more about the holocaust and the blitz than any other event during the war, so couldn't even tell you who Churchill was as our school seemed to be brainwashed by humanities subjects and our own history is being bastardised by the limp wristed political correct and foreigners who simply have British passports that have origins in other cultures that have always been envious of us

English Free Korp would be traitors then?
So you have a great knowledge and understanding of what is taught in school? Do you work in education? Or did you get that infomation from a reliable source such as the Daily Mail? Your final sentence shows you as a racist and petty in my mind.

Are you quite sure you read my comment correctly?

The word Racist is a word over used for some that cant hold an argument, we are to a certain extent all racists, a comment was made once by the Queens sister, \"there are some that are not careful of their breeding\". A remark that would have been acceptable in Victorian times, but may also be acceptable to those of the jewish faith and the muslim faith, so who are the real racists? We have people attacked for racist motives, most of the assailants are asian?

The source of the information about the English Free Korp is from government documents released only in the last few years for the feedom of information act and a documentary was made about them about a year or so ago, but I knew about it when I was a child from my father.

As for traitors, they are all around us now, most are in parliament and some in the whitehouse, some people call Bush a traitor for his giving into Mexicans. What exactly is Bush up to anyway? he comes from a family that financially bolster the nazi regime in Germany as far as I can ascertain and now he seems to be playing a huge war game that only a few know of the ultimate goals and the rules and it seems our muppet of a Prime Minister is dancing to.

I have nothing to do with the eductional system only that I had run ins with some teachers of my sons school, since then one of the teachers was arrested for a nonce crime against a female pupil. The eduction department has recently indicated that the teaching of history has to be changed and admitted that too much emphasis was made on the social aspects of history and so a list of Great Britains that effected the way our country is today are to be included in the curriculum, but I already knew there was a problem in the schools regarding the teaching of history because of what my son and my daughter told me. Its because of the teachers that teach and it goes right back to the problem of how the teachers were taught themselves in Uni and some of the left wing views that that were taught.

If you were to take a degree in Psychology for instance, its basically not at all about Psychology but more about social politics and to pass you really have to tell lies as this course is more about conditioning of the mind or brainwashing. My daughter did this course, she used to come home with some of the literature, I found it eye opening.

If your going to freely accuse people of being racist, might I suggest you surf and get .Beset by lizards | Extracts | Guardian Unlimited Books...Its about David Ickes visit to Canada, it had me laughing, its well written I think you\'ll enjoy it

Strangest thing, I have a history book here, right with me, on my knee. Would you believe it was written over thirty years ago, now whats even more remarkable is that there is a full section devoted to Britisches Freikorps, it is not something that has ever been hidden, its always been known about, and of every pow that was held, the British Free Korp only ever reached 27 men, heck you can even find it on wikipedia.

What's the title of that text book, by the way? It is in all honesty something that isn't discussed all that much, nor is the fact that anti-semitism was probably just as strong in Britain as it was in Nazi Germany. Remember, before embarking on the Final Solution, the Nazis did try to get rid of Jews to places like Canada and the U.S. and wanted to ship them back to Palastine, but all of these initiatives met with strong resistance.

Incidently, in case you haven't heard, the Germans used foreign troops of just about every ethnic group in Europe and Eurasia (not to mention Indians from India), both in the Wehrmacht and Waffen SS.

KGS

I believe it was the Americans and not the British; the British flew night missions; their airplanes were not equipped with the same defences as the American bombers as a result; to fly into the heart of Europe, even late in the war, would have been tantamount to suicide. All it would have taken was a few German airplanes equipped with "Schragemusick" cannons slipping under one bomber (British bombers weren't equipped with belly turret) after the next to end the raid with disasterous results.

The bombing of the camps would have been a symbolic gesture at best and to concentrate on the destruction of the German war machine seems more logical and probably was the right decision. Of course this course of action has led to accusations of anti-semitism; but one has to wonder what would have happened had the camps been bombed. Classic no-win situation.

KGS

Its the Orbis Encyclopedia of World war two, first published in 1966, it came as a weekly magazine which when complete builds into 8 volumes, I have the version published in 1974. It is true that it isnt discussed much about the foreign troops that served in the Waffen SS, I did know about the Indian as well as the Bosnian Muslim SS, neither fitting the nazi ideal of arian manhood. I think pretty much every country in Europe had some degree of anti semitism as well as in the United States

"Orbis Encyclopedia of World war two"

That's not exactly my idea of a "text book" and I'm wondering whether it would even have been in many school libraries.

I remember my high school text book devoting little attention to either of the World Wars, and if the book "Who Killed Canadian History?" is any indication of how things have progressed here in Canada, I'm assuming even less is to be found in texts today. I find that quite sad.

KGS

I dont think men or women are responsible for crimes of this magnatude. Theres evil in higher places then mankind and there extremely intelligent and use men and women as tools to do what they will with the world. In the bible it even says that 'it's a war of principalities' and that there is 'evil in high places' which means the spirit world. Theres far more out there then us humans in this whole mysterious life thing that's happening. Theres evil out there that's as profound as the most divine beings from heaven. It's a war. Somehow mankind is going somewhere and there's something out there thats hell bent on stopping us.

I have learned much about Hitler and what always gets me the most is that he was an artisit. You see, before he became the f'in Devil, he was a young innocent lad who applyed to go to art school. He got denied and whamo! He wrote the book Mein Kemp(spelling ?) and the rest is history. If he had been accepted into that school i think that would have occupied his time rather then killing millions of innocent people. They probably thought later on that they made a booboo in saying no to that boy.

My grandfather 3 months before he passed away told me about it .... he was a messenger and said that he spoke, shook hands and delivered a messege to Hitler, he also said that he doesnt totally believe that it was all Hitlers doing .......
My grandfather came from Holland and when he was about 18 he delivered the messege .... I asked him what it was like, with the war and all .... what did he see .... wasnt he afraid????
The look that that old man gave me was terrible!!!! The look on his face shocked me!!!! Even now if I think of it I get a lump in my throat and goosebumps ..... He didnt want to tell me in full discription but it was the first and last time I ever saw his eyes fill with tears and I could actually see the pain, horror, sadness about something that to him he didnt really want to talk about! You could see his mind going .... it scard him, left terrible marks in his memory which I gathered he really did want to forget! It must have been extremely bad!
To this day if anyone ever had to ask me what question I ever regret asking it would be that. I believe every word that came out of his mouth!!!! .... he worked for NASA and also on huge ships he built the first Phillips TV (there are newspaper clipping all in dutch)!!! He was a very logical, technical person ..... anything you asked him he knew .... otherwise looked up and told us .... which was once only lol! He wasnt afraid to ever tell the truth either. So I will carry believing in every word he ever said. To me the little that he did tell was enough ... those people will never forget .... it was too terrible for them .... thats probably why ... they want to forget ...... block it out ..... just forget.

~*~

*Posts removed.*

In future if you have nothing of value to add to a thread, then don't post. Please get back on topic and be respectful.

Anyone find it suspicious in the least how European countrys ban all holocaust denial?

You should be allowed to debate it.

Interesting. I didn't know that. Is it true that Germany is not allowed fighter planes because of world war 2?