It's a questions that bugs me. Is it wrong to believe and worship God out of fear?

First you are given a life that you never asked for. Some born into poverty and some into wealth. Some blessed with more than others. Anyway, then you are told to believe in and worship and pray to God, and if you don't, you burn in hell.

Now I have many problems with that:

1) God hasn't even given us solid evidence of his existence.

2) God wants us to remain loyal to him no matter how unfairly we are treated and how much crap we have to take while god doesn't do a damn about it.

3) If God is so forgiving and loving, why would he even create a hell?

4) As far as I know most holy books don't talk of second chances. You screw up the first time and you're off to hell.

5) Why should you give love to God when you have never recieved it from him?

Now theres more but it's 2 am and i wana get some sleep.

So, after having looked at the above, can you really say it is wrong to believe and pray and do good deeds out of fear of going to hell? If you want, you can even watch this movie and then tell me what you think: http://www.amightywind.com/hell/testimonies.htm

Seriously, the fear alone of hell might scare you into believing.

I find anyone believing something or basing a conviction out of fear, seriously needs to take a second glance, study and observe it.

I think many that hold faith in the mainstream religions do so because it's "tradition". Their mother and father and their mother and father, before them. Like that. And what do the mainstream faiths impart about holding allegiance to the dogma set forth? It is fear. Fear of this worlds temptations, the "devil" around every corner, waiting to imperil one's immortal soul. The razor thin promise of salvation if one does everything just right, or the eternal damnation if they're simply human.

Did you ever notice that all the mainstream faiths worship a god that is all knowing, present in everything and everywhere, and yet it judges the human creation it knows everything about, for being exactly as it made them to be!? There is no free will when the judge is omniscient. And yet, the fear is what I think holds many to obey the will of something other generations told them was the only "one and true way" to live in faith. And what's fascinating to me is that a woman or man that lives in a fear based human relationship is told it's a dysfunctional relationship.

That a spouse or lover , that truly knows what love is, does not impart fear in the heart of the other. Maybe the rules are different between that mortal definition of an abusive relationship, and that which is present when one of the other "partners" is invisible and only there because it's taken on faith.

The fear of going to hell is a definite reason for belief and worship. Especially when a person creates a family. I've notice alot of people latch onto a religion once they become married and have children. I assume its because the thought of the child burning in hell because of their parents' beliefs scares the parent into religion.......why take the chance, what if I'm wrong and there is a God. It is these questions that a person may ponder once a child enters their life.

Fear is the foundation of the whole thing - fear of the mysterious, fear of defeat, fear of death. Fear is the bedrock of cruelty, and therefore it is no wonder if cruelty and religion have gone hand in hand. Fear is the reason why a person creates a mysterious ally in the sky, a big older brother of sorts that will stick up for them and stand by them in all their times of need.



A 19th century American preacher Frank Wicks posed an interesting thought in 1914, in a time when sermons were still about the agonies of a damnation in hell and the joyful bliss of a salvation in heaven. Wicks' theory was that the traditional hell, where people ended up because they did not believe in or worship God, was unacceptable to all good men. Where as if you were a truly good person how could you be happy in heaven when all those people are suffering in an eternal damnation of fire and brimstone.

Instead of going to heaven, the truly good person would rather end up in hell. Only the bad would choose to go to heaven. The only man fit to be damned was the man who would accept salvation on those terms.
Wicks said: "Any man who would purchase a salvation that meant eternal bliss to himself and eternal perdition to his neighbour, is so lost in selfishness that it would take considerable fire to purify his nature''

Famous American agnostic Robert Ingersoll said: " The theory of hell is a frightful dogma that founded the Inquisition, darkened the lives of many millions and made the cradle as terrible as the coffin. It enslaved nations and shed the blood of countless thousands.It sacrificed the wisest, the bravest and the best.It subverted the idea of justice, drove mercy from the heart, changed men to fiends and banished reason from the brain.''

Hell is the base spawn of hate and fear. Hate and fear first made a god after their own likeness, and this god made a hell to their liking.


Here's an interesting article about the fear of hell relating to economic growth:
http://www.danieldrezner.com/archives/001517.html

This is utterly ridiculus.....A church that has designed a type of HellHouse to scare people into worship......check this out!!!:
http://religiousfreaks.com/2006/10/04/hell...gay-out-of-you/

There is nothing wrong with fear itself, we might not like it, but it is a necessary function. Now I would say to worship a god out of fear and to live in fear is not healthy mentally or physically..... wrong maybe, if you think living in an unhealthy state is wrong. Most believers I know aren't motivated by fear, but rather the strength and love that they perceive is given to them by their god. Fear can be a motivating factor, but more times than not it leads to irrational behavior. Fearing an imminent threat, something tangible and present is one thing, but to fear an unseen force or source can be damaging.

Very normal questions....First realize that hell is not a punishment, it's a consequence. To deny Jesus Christ, is like a cancer patient denying treatment. If the cancer patient dies afterwards its not because the doctor punished the patient for not taking the cure, it's that the patient suffered the consequences of their denial. Of course most people, are like cancer patients who are told they have cancer, but they don't believe it, because there's not sufficient evidence that the doctor exists, even though his accomplishments are all over the walls of the hospital.

1) He has actually, it's just people want more and more evidence than necessary.

2) Your reward is in heaven. It is forgiving to not fight back, it is refreshing and helpful, not to fight back.

3)Hell was not created for humans, hell was created for Satan, and since Satan is a lonely guy he tricked Eve so that he would make mankind a sinful creature and then he would have some company in hell.

4) Getting saved, is a path of second chances. It's like a cancer patient going into remission but then the cancer comes back, and then they wonder if they should keep trying.

5) I am sorry, but you are very blessed. You have no right to say you are not loved by God. I assume you have a home, the internet, sufficient food to eat, clean clothes to wear, fresh water to drink, fresh air to breathe, a warm bed to sleep in, and freedom to come here and speak your opinion. If that's not a blessing than what is it? No one should get saved out of fear, that's not the reason for getting saved. If your reason for doing so is to escape hell then your in bad shape. God wants people who WANT to be with him. He wants people who can see his love, instead of people who ask "Why should you give love to God when you have never recieved it from him?" He wants people who ask "Why not love God when his love for me is so great..." To not know the Love of God is so so sad, I couldn't imagine I could live without it. It's a love so great that if we could understand it we would probably die. Its a comfort so great there is NOTHING to describe it.......To know see it is a sad thing...just look at a young child...those are the type of people God wants. People who trust him regardless of what they know.......and as to your question about why we should take crap.....Jesus dies for us, he died for people he knew would never appreciate it, he died for people who hate his guts, he died for people who deny his existence...Denying him won't make him go away, it'll will just make things worse when you meet him.

No i dont think it is.

If I believed in my Gods because I feared them they wouldn't respect me. Why should I fear them they have done me no harm only good. One should love and respect ones Gods not fear them. We Pagans don't kneel before our Gods we stand with pride in who and what we are. We are God-lings in training.

Anytime someone believes or worships something or someone out of fear it is wrong.

I find it hard to believe that Christians don't see their religion as fear-based. Their "plan of salvation" is based on the question of whether you want to go to heaven or hell. If no fear of what happens after we die was involved, how many Christians would there be today?

Actually, the Christian plan of Salvation is based on the idea that our willful disobedience of God (sin) has set us on a path which will leave us eternally separated from God, and since we were created to be in unity with Him, this basically means an eternity of incompleteness with full knowledge of that incompleteness. Salvation is God's love shown in His willingness to forgive us and provide the only way to bring us back into unity with Him and His willingness to leave it to each of us to choose to accept it or not.

In and of itself, there is nothing wrong with fear. It is healthy to fear. However, to base a relationship on fear IS wrong, and to worship God out of a sense of fear is detrimental to the health, I would think. Personally, I worship God out of love, not because of some desire to escape the fiery pits of a hell that I don't even think is biblically supportable.

Worship out of fear = unhealthy.
Worship out of love = ?????

Fill in the blanks.

I find that a lil odd...worship out of fear is what all christians do....they feel if the dont worship with love for Jesus or God...they will go to hell....so over all the 2 go hand in hand... love and fear!!

If fear is unhealthy, in a relationship of any kind, then I wonder why there are more than 10 books in the bible that contain numerous passages that relate a necessary fear of god!?

Fear god
Leviticus
19:14 "'Do not curse the deaf or put a stumbling block in front of the blind, but fear your God. I am the Lord.

25:17 Do not take advantage of each other, but fear your God. I am the Lord your God.

So, a Christian tells you he worships out of love and you basically tell him he's odd because you KNOW Christians worship out of fear?

After all the posts where Christians, including myself, have pointed out that since we have accepted Christ as our Savior we have NOTHING to fear, especially not hell, you continue to KNOW that Christians worship out of fear? How is that?

If I told you that since you believe in God then I know you are a Christian, would that be true? No, and you would let me know it very thoroughly, so how about a little respect on your part, stop asserting that you know what we believe.

Perhaps it's a matter of consistency. Christians believe the bible to be the word of god. And that word of that god admonishes it's believers in numerous passages, (see above reference) to fear their god. So , if someone says christians fear their god, they are correct if they are referring to the bible that directs believers to fear their god. If a christian says they have no fear of their god, that is their personal faith.

If a few christians say they do not fear their god, that is a few christians sharing their pov. However, it is not biblical and it is arrogance for any one christian to dare speak for all christians when they dare say christians do not fear their god, because that is contrary to that word of their god that admonishes them to fear him.

'Son (and others,) you may not fear God now that you believe you are guaranteed a happy afterlife by him, but you can't honestly believe that the fear of eternal damnation/seperation has nothing to do with the conversion of many people to the faith.

I mean c'mon, that's Christianity's major selling point.
That religion wouldn't be nearly so widespread as it is today, if it had no concept of "consequences for not accepting Christ."

Interesting post, GW. I hope you don't mind me quoting it for the sole purpose of agreeing with it and wanting it to be read.

Many ancient words had double meanings, not only ancient Hebrew words but also ancient Sumerian words. According to Strong's Analytical Concordance to the Bible, while the Old Hebrew word "Yare"(yawray) means to fear in the literal sense, but it also had another meaning "to have a deep feeling of reverence." I think this is the way we should worship God. Just like with my human father, I don't constantly fear him. But I have a love and reverence for him. I would say I have a deeper love and reverence for my heavenly Father and out of that love and reverence, I want to do good and have faith.

Definition of "Reverence": regard with feelings of respect and reverence; consider hallowed or exalted or be in awe of; "Fear God as your father"; "We venerate genius"

According to my concordance, there are many meanings for the word "fear." But we have to rely on scholars to interpret ancient text correctly. Just like in the ancient Sumerian text, unfortunately we don't have a dictionary to tell us what all the words mean. And Sitchin is one of the few people who can interprete that text. In other words, there's noone looking over his shoulder to tell if it is being translated correctly. I think we may have the same problem with some Biblical words. When you have so many meanings for one word, which one do you choose?

http://ashiana.conforums.com/index.cgi

~ Isis

I am sorry dearest but you are utterly confused. It appears as if you do not know much about Christianity. If you can find one real Christian who is a Christian out of fear let me know. (You won't find one).

Fear has nothing to do with it. If your afraid than that's on you. I mean why should you be afraid of something you don't believe in right?

Nobody who doesn't believe in God is afraid of God, however, people who attempt to convert others to God use fear to make the conversion work.
"Accept Christ or you'll spend eternity in Hell!" Are you seriously trying to tell me that this has nothing to do with fear?

Obviously. I'm Christian so I must be worshipping out of fear. Glad to know you konw me better than I know myself Sorry for the sarcasm, but clearly you have a skewed view of "all Christians" as you say yourself in your post.

Translating words from one language to another is not always a perfect job. Though "fear" is the way this word translates into English (and is quite properly translated as such), it's not the same form of fear as we are discussing in this thread. If you look at the etymology of the word for "fear" used in the context of "Fear God", you'll note that it's not the piss-your-pants-and-hide-in-the-corner-crying-in-terror kind of fear. Revere, Respect, deference, awe, these are all synonyms of the word translated as "Fear God". Perhaps "Hold God in awe" is the best modern-day translation of the term. You'll find a similar problem with the Greek translation of the word "Love", which has different words (and different meanings) but all translate as love.

Thanks Isis. Just to add to your post, there is a term also translated "fear" - moraw (Hebrew " מורה מרא מורא "), which is what is used in most situations that the author is referring to dread and terror.

Um. I was a Christian until I was in my 20s. I attended a Baptist church Sunday morning, Sunday night and Wednesday every week of my life until I was 21. I attended a Christian school from kindergarten through high school.

What I'm trying to say is that I know a little about Christianity.

It's nice how you use the term "real" Christian. I'm guessing that for those people who claim to be Christians because they believe "just in case" aren't "real" Christians in your book?

I still doubt that people would follow Christianity if the afterlife was taken out of the equation.

Real Christians don't worship God out of fear. If they did all Christians would never sin, break a commandment, etc. But they do. Christians already worship God and don't think they are going to hell, so they don't have the fear of going to hell.
At most the fear of going to hell may remind them about their beleifs when they are thinking of doing something wrong. Real Christians don't worship God out of fear they do it out of love. I would think that if a christian only worshiped God out of fear then he may go to hell anyways, because i think God would want us to love him without fear. I'm not a christian though, but my family is and I know how they feel on this particular subject.

As for using using fear as a recruitment tool...I know this happens, but its not like every church or christian does this. Because my family is christian I have gone to many different churches(mostly catholic, but a few other sub sects too) and 6 out of 10 times the members and priests will try to convert me out of love(as in God gave you all this and he loves you so love him too), 2 out of ten times its through fear(as in worship god or go to hell), 1 out of ten times they try to convert me through debunking my beliefs, and one out of ten times they don't even try to convert me.

It all depends on what type of christian you are, what your church teaches you, and what you beleive.

I'd like to ask a question and I want you all to answer honestly. Would any of you even give a crap about god if the afterlife didn't exist ????????

Well i'm not religious but I beleive the religious would. Because God can still strike you with lightning and flood your house in this life. Also most christians don't worship God for the sole purpose of getting into heaven...they do it because they love him and respect him and craeted everything and what not.

Who said there WAS an afterlife ?

Every agency invested in making believers believe there is something more, when this life is through. Paying the church, and paying attention to the rules of conduct to thereby insure one makes it there. Better question is, who can prove there is an afterlife!?

Which, bare bones truth of the matter there is, when one thinks about it. Death, is the after life. But many human ego's can't accept that. And many more invested in power over others, realizing this, exploit it to the fullest. Believer or not, when each of us dies we'll all find what is fundamentally true. But the thing about the con religions pull on people is, no one that ever dies and happens to find out promises of after life paradises or hells was all BS, can ever come back wake people up to the fact it is all BS. But it certainly does insure a fascist dictatorship of the body and soul , also an unproven affirmation by faiths, while people do experience what they know is real in this life. Indeed, it the fiction has ruled the world for centuries, promising there's something more when one leaves it behind. The greatest con ever told, life isn't our sole responsibility.

That reminds me of the story of Job, and the question as to whether humans could be loyal and devoted to morals, principles, and ethics if they saw that they would not be rewarded for following them, or reject them like a Pavlov dog.

Actually your Pavlovian dog reference is a misnomer. Pavlov's dog was rewarded with food, for salivating on cue. Not for rebelling against the bell prompt. When there was no food in sight, Pavlov and his assistants noticed the dog salivated anyway. This was found to be because in lieu of food, the dog's salivary reflexes were activating at the sight of the lab coats, worn by those the dogs new were the bearers of the salivation prompt/reward, food.

I'm sorry but I don't know real Christians that accept Christ because they are trying to get away from hell, and any person pretending to be a Christian that says "Accept or go to hell" Should be ahsmaed of themselves, because the point of believing is not to escape hell. The point of believing is because you want to know the man that died for you. You view hell as a punishment, but it is not, it is a consequence of misaction. For instance if a cancer patient refuses to recieve treatment from the doctor, and than that person dies, the death is not a punishment it is instead a lack of action. Just because the person doesn't belive that they have cancer, and just because they think the treatment can't help doesn't mean that the cancer is not there.

There are a lot of people who think they're saved and are not, there are a lot of fake Christians, it's sad that the only ones the Non-Believers hear are the fake ones, cause when the real ones come along, then they are shunned because the fake ones messed things up.



You hit the nail on the head. We worship our of Love no fear, we worship out of respect not fear, we worship out of desire not fear. If you worship out of fear then your not worshipping, your begging.

the only thing more wrong than believing only out of fear
is expecting someone to believe out of fear

I dont blame people for believeing out of fear. There is some ultimate being or beings who can watch you always, It gives the feeling that it or they are looming over you. They or It are supposed to be able to do anything from giving life to causing death and destruction. Like i said i dont blame people for believing from fear especially when there are those that will force that fear down your neck.

"If you can find one real Christian who is a Christian out of fear let me know. (You won't find one)."

Yes, and I know from personal experience that the closer we are to God, and the more spiritual we become, the more we lose the fear we once had.....in all areas of our life.

http://ashiana.conforums.com/index.cgi

~ Isis

LOL yeah I wonder why I agree



The first part of what you said makes me laugh because it sounds like you're saying people would believe out of the fear of being punished in this life rather than the next. As for the second part, im sure we would all like to believe that but I still wonder.



Well come on you have to admit there is a possibility of an afterlife. I mean could it really be that we are more than just little atoms?



Don't the people from near death experiences say exactly that? Anyway, even if you don't believe in an afterlife you have to admit there is a possibility.



Well I'm sure nobody is going to admit they believe out of fear. We all want to convince ourselves that we really do love god, but maybe deep down some of us do and others don't.

Anyway. I myself don't even believe in christian hell. I believe that hell is the state of being remote from god, and heaven the state of being close to him. I don't fear hell. If I belong in hell then I guess I'll take my place in it along with the millions and perhaps billions of others who already have. I just think most people have the wrong view of hell.

Don't these verses show the fear of the afterlife?


And, as Chaoszerg pointed out there's the issue with being watched all of the time. God's watching you, Jesus is watching you, demons are after you, Satan is after you, angels are watching you.

1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Sounds pretty scary to me.

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul; but rather fear him, which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell" Jesus in Matthew 10:28

Not to mention the capitalist slant that makes fear fortune. Like feargod.com . Now there's a site, if you want to terrorize your closet! Talk about whacked context.

I think what some people are trying to get across is ...generally many people are afraid of dying, and since no one really knows what happens when you die(by this I mean, like say a friend died, came back and was like "woah dude...check this out") Those people might look to something like christianity to find relief, for their death. Knowing that this belief will make everything all right. A comfort to their fear of death.

Fear of death is the illness, and spiritual , or religious belief, or whatever else is the cure.

Did I just ramble like a fool there? sorry... it happens sometimes.

I just checked out that link. I love the t-shirt that reads, "Every time you take a breath 7 people go to hell". I wonder what happens when I breathe really fast?

Reminds me of one of my favorite Deep Thoughts by Jack Handy

"It's true that every time you hear a bell ring, an angel gets his wings. But what they don't tell you is, every time you hear a mousetrap snap, an angel gets set on fire"

That's the kind of shirt I need to buy next time I attend a Pranayama class. I'm just disappointed that their 2X size is temporarily out of stock. Because I just know I wanna see someone that size and that pathetic, walking toward me in that shirt.


I'd drop to my knee's right in front of them and scream; "Save me! From being as stupid as you are!" Then I'd pant, really really fast.

i believe fear should be a very big part of our walk with god.the bible says to seek out our own salvation with fear and trembling.god is a very loving and forgiving god ,but is also a god of wrath.our sinful nature alone is something to fear,as will bring sbout the wrath of god.even the chastisment we may reieve from him out of his love for us is something to fear.fear is definintly a very important part of this relationship.fear of gods wrath will keep us in check and will help keep us in a repentive state and keep us in tune with how we are really living our lives.when jesus went up to the figtree along the wayside and found no fruit he cursed it and it died;if we as christians become fruitless we are in danger of the same fate.we should love him and fear him ,he is great ,mighty ,and holy.praise him because he is worthy,fear him because we are not worthy of his goodness ,and we aresinfull by nature and need his mercy

I dont think we need his mercy i just think we need to stop wanting to be with him like it is the most important thing in the world and make our own paradise instead of trying to beg and pray and put ourselfs down so that God may take pity on us and let us go to a supposed Heaven.

Think about needing "his" mercy for a minute. You have a god that is creator of all things. Knows all things. Is everywhere. And yet, believers believe they have to pray for mercy from all those things their god creates in their world. Some excuse "free will", but their bible says nothing happens without god. So free will, is a misnomer because there is no free will when an all knowing god levies judgment in his omniscience. So why ask for mercy from a god that creates all things one needs beg mercy for? Or salvation from!? When this world, if there was a benevolent god, would be a paradise because god would want nothing less for his creation. And certainly wouldn't expect them to beg mercy to save them from all that he lets to happen because he's creator of all things.
If one thinks about it just a little, it's obvious man made god in the image of sado-masochistic terrorism. That's not god, nor is it worthy of worship unless one is keen on nurturing a sense of low self-esteem. Which keeps men the likes of which create something like that, in business. Because nowhere in the bible is there any references to intelligence. It's all supplication to tyranny while alive, so as to gain paradise after the living on one's knee's is over.

we do need his mercy.not because its some business promotion tactic,or any kinda addition to someones plan of salvation.and he is the creator,and knows all,that part is irrelivant.the fact is before we ''become'' a child of god ,there will be no mercy for the stain of sins we have in our spirit.once we become a''child'' of god it still dont make us perfect in our flesh,but then we are a child of god ,so we must repent daily for any transgressions we might have made,and ask for his forgiveness and his''mercy''.if we ever have a chance to here his truth we should give thanks ,his mercy is still upon us

From whence do souls, born into sinful flesh, originate?

You know not everyone is a christian and believes in hell the way they do




Where do you think we live now? Earth is paradise. If the world is going to hell its not gods fault, we are to blame.

So, basically, praying is just that? Goddess, praying is communicating with God. Praying is like meditation but with someone actually being there with you. Praying is communicating with God. And yes, He does know everything, but He still desires you to know that He will listen to you.

OK, so nothing happens without God, if I decide to go to Australia, God is in the plans. if I decide that I will dedicate my life to crime, God is there too, if some idiot decides that the best way to get his message across is to blow up some people, God is aware of that too. Nothing happens without God, He is there no matter what you do, but you are still deciding it.


Really? A benevolent God would create a paradise? That is assuming that a benevolent God would basically want a creation that was FANTASTICALLY boring.

God did create a paradise... and even in paradise man decided to disobey.

Could it be possible that after proving that man can't appreciate paradise when it is the only thing he knows that now paradise takes place after this life, when you FINALLY can appreciate it.



Obviously, you have formed a very negative opinion of the Bible, what I find so interesting is that others read the same book and experience REAL, PERMANENT, POSITIVE changes in their lives.

from god.this sinfull nature came from the knoweledge of good and evil,as written in genesis.god created earth,animals,all things.he then created adam in his own image withhis own will,unlike angels in which he made to be as servants.god communed with adam and loved him and blessed him and made for him eve.maybe adam started focusing on his blessings more and less on god ,i dont know but eventually adam had let down his guard on anything that might hinder his relationship with god and things just got messedup from there.they were thrown out of the garden as a result of disobedience,and still suffer from this fall of man,but we can still commune with god and recieve his love and mercy,he has made a way.

Actually I was speaking to SBradJ and replying in the context of their post (re:god) on the other page. I am Atheist. I don't credit god, nor blame god for the beauty or the ills of this world, because for me there is no god. I know,this world is what we make of it ourselves.