So, when asked why God won't show himself, the common rebuttal is that he wants us to have faith in his existance. But what about Satan? Why doesn't he make himself known? He has every reason to terrorize and kill humans... He wants power, he enjoys power, he enjoys the suffering of others, so Christians.. why am I still alive and unafraid of Satan?

He has the power to


He has the will to


So.. Just where the hell is satan?

(Possessions don't count. They can be faked and lied about, and I hardly think such an evil guy would only possess people.)

Satan is in my bath tub, he wont get out and he keeps demanding ice tea with a little umbrella.

Satan is in the same place as God....our minds.

According to the movie Constantine, God and Satan don't physically interfere with human but only can influence them.

According to the book Memoirs of Cadetak, Satan may or may not have the power to appear on earth or he may or may not exist.

According to my dog Maggie, Satan is lazy bum and doesn't feel like doing anything.

Looking past the fact that the two passages you quoted do not in any way show Satan's power - In Luke, Jesus quotes scripture to the devil and the devil runs. In 1 Peter, after this quote, all a CHristian need do is say "no" to the lion, and the lion runs with tail between its legs (yeah, very dangerous lion). Sorry, I said I'd look past those passages, didn't I. Sorry, I got carried away....... Oh well, too late now. I think it helpful in regards to the opening post to point out that Satan has no real power of his own. Satan cannot do anything, without first getting the approval of God. If God doesn't want Satan to show himself, Satan cannot show himself.

Actually if satan showed himself people would be scared sh!tless and turn to god so they don't go to hell. BTW satans appearance would just reassure us of Gods existence.

Anyway, satan to me exists only in the imagination of people.

If satan can't do anything without the approval of God, then why does every Christian readily believe to some extent that satan himself has caused problems in our world? He could at least make appearances even if not approved by God, no? Why wouldn't he do that? If Satan appeared in front of anybody, I don't think they'd instantly go: In the name of blahblahblah, they'd be too shocked and afraid. Satan was ready and willing to tempt eve (physically talking to her) to eat the apple, he physically told Jesus about the other kingdoms, so why the subtlety now? You see this is the common story in the bible. These things happened, they were impossible, but they aren't going to happen anymore until (Insert date of rapture here), you just have to believe that they happened. Every being that was causing them to happen doesn't want to prove to you that they happened, but trust us.. they really did happen. Do you know that before 100 AD, most people were uninformed about Jesus' life? Even Paul himself, the only link between Jesus' times and the new writers (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John), only mentioned a small few elements of his life; and didn't realize just how many wild claims Christians now believe to be true about Jesus. The thing is, this is how you insert a story into history in a time of little record-keeping.. You write it as if it is happening now, you wait, then you pass it on once it is "over", it's picked up, reinterpreted and rewritten as history.. and at that point it can no longer be questioned for validity. At that point it's all, "This was God's time to bring the messiah into the world, This was when the miracles happened, show's over, come again next week." Why is the Christian God (and every other immortal being in the bible) so good at dodging any chance to give a shred of evidence of his existance? Does he want to send people to hell to be tortured when those people genuinely didn't know he was real? You see what I'm getting at? At what point does faith become ridiculous? How many wild claims with no evidence, no witnesses, and no other good explanations, will be accepted as truth?

This is really what I'm getting at in this topic. With no evidence, wild claims, close-minded teachings, what on earth causes you to believe in it? If it were really the word of God, do you think there would be so many endless amounts of valid arguments against it? I used to have faith, and I grew out of it. All it takes is a REAL objective look at faith, You need to look through both a religious as well as a skeptic's point of view. And that means pretending for a little bit that you don't think God and Jesus and so on exist.

Satan takes advantage of the weak spirited - the weak minded. Satan is evident in many people. They aren't posessed but Satan is the ultimate mind player. He can literally send one insane. He can make us do things out of character...He likes us to regret our existance.
Satan has an influence on this world more than you will ever know...Satan is very weak when he is resisted - but if he has a grasp of you he will not let go. One with a strong faith and a strong mentality can easily resist Satan and send him packing to latch on to another victim. He likes to see people fail, fight and destroy each other and themselves. He's Gods rebellion. You see what causes me to believe in it...Believe in what exactly? God ? Satan? The Lot? Even without the religious influence of these character i would still believe in the Ultimate Good and the Ultimate Evil. Most people would. Many believe in a higher deity. If there's a good there must be an evil. God/Satan (Good/Evil) have naturally grown within humanity it is nothing new. Go look at civilizations way back from ours and their concept and complexity of God(s)...There was always a friend and foe. I do believe in the Ultimate good and evil yet i also believe Good always wins.

Good does not always win. I don't need to prove that to you. This isn't the movies.

You can guess that "satan takes advantage" of people, but in the end you're only guessing. You cannot ever know that until a spirit named Satan actually admits to doing so HIMSELF, through nobody else. If you simply just believe that a higher right and wrong exists, what makes you become a Christian because of that? Why accept questionable stories and many negative teachings simply because you think that it exists to some extent in principle? Beliefs are not a problem, but why must you bring a religion into it? Seeking a further explanation of what you think is true? Even if there is a God and a Satan, do you really think that God chose to speak to specific men throughout history, even though they have no more evidence it was the word of God than any other prophet out there? Good and evil are the result of actions. You want to see a higher HUMAN good and evil in the grand scale of things, but human good and evil is not the way the universe works. Cause and effect is all that matters, no matter how we favor the effect. We can't explain everything in human terms, you see?

It's been my experience that what you grow up with and what you become aren't always the same. You dont' automatically become a Christian just because your parents are Christian. And though you may start life believing the god of your parents, that is no guarantee of true life-long faith, and many do indeed change.

I understand what you are trying to say, but you were a believer and now are not a believer is not a valid reason for me. I was a non-Christian until I was 19. Irish was an Atheist until he was 25. And we are just two examples of people coming Christian later in life. A "real objective look at faith"? I used to make the exact same arguments you do against Christianity, or any religion for that matter.

The fact is, people change, and we don't always continue to believe what we grew up with. That doesn't make what we used to believe less plausible, it just means a shift in your personal world-view. What is unplausible to you is not unplausible to someone else, especially in matters of faith.

LOL!! My husband and I are crying from laughing at this one.

You hit the nail on the head as to why Christianity has failed to make the world a better place. Christians are gentiles who could not understand the concept of a monotheism, in which there is only ONE God, just as the Old Testament states who is responsible for BOTH Good and EVIL -- Not a ficticious Devil stolen from Persian zoroastrianism to make Christianity popular among its pagan recruits. Yes, Christians want to believe in Good and Evil entities who oppose each other, but this is not what the God of the Bible is about. Your theology was stolen from Persian Zoroastrianism, just changing their evil dragon to the name of "Satan". Look up Dualism, itis a popular pagan belief, but has no place in a monotheism.

The Satan of the Old Testament is one of the Sons of God. Gods Chief prosecutor of mankind. Long after Eden (and nowhere in the OT does it say Satan is the serpent), God is sending Satan a various missions. The socalled "temptation" of Jesus was really just another mission for Satan on behalf of God, the mighty dragon offering to fulfill Jesus prophesized role of Messiah by destroying the earthly powers so Jesus could rule the world. Jesus turned down the offer becasue "his kindgom was ot of this world." So Jesus actually failed in the prophesized role of Messiah, so it is no wonder the Jews never acknowledged him as the Messiah. The messiah was supposed to conquer the oppressors of the Jews and make them the world power. Jesus mad no attempt to do this, instead he tried to convert the pagans to Judaism, and all he got for it was a blasphemous misture of jewish and pagan beliefs we now call Christianity.

The last I heard, Satan is hiding out in the Congo where he has been mistaken for a dinosaur. The world is becoming a hard place for a dragon to hide these days. Perhaps he is still "the lord of this world" in name, but I doubt he has the power to conquer nations as he did in the iron age. Maybe he has already been recalled to heaven.

satan is busy gathering souls cuz he has little time left.. he will be destroyed

but as the bible say "he is a roaring lion....seeking to devour "

Okay, that's fine.. I do understand that because just like you, I've made some of the same arguments for Christianity in the past. It does become less plausible to ME, because its plausibility is simply hinging on how much faith you have, correct? There is never going to be any true proof for the bible, it will always be a matter of faith. I'm not necessarily saying that Christianity is a "childish" belief by saying I grew out of it, age had nothing to do with it, it's simply personal growth IMO.

Satan is one of those handy constructs that people invoke when they don't want to accept responsibility for their actions.

You can stop trying to convince believers of how silly they are to believe and try to see it as a yearning for something important. Its a survival mechanism. This anger and frustration toward God believers is a little like being mad at a diabetic because they need insulin.

You can accept the reality of life. Others can't so let them have their God insulin if that's what gets them through their day and keeps the peace. There's no reason to take someone off their fix before they are ready or willing unless its interfering with your life. And although we may complain about believers, in our day to day lives we aren't suffering because of them.

I do suffer daily because of Christianity. Because of the teachings of religion, my father openly tells me that I'm going to hell on a daily basis. Because of Christianity, almost everything I do is monitored with a watchful eye in case I should do something "sinful". Because of Christianity, I am forced to counseling that I don't need or want on a weekly basis because my parents believe something is wrong with me for being atheist.

Every day, religion inspires murder, racism, sexism, hatred, and bigotry. I'm not saying that the people here on UM would do anything like that, I simply don't like religion, and I will openly state that. It's taboo to even question religion. Yet it's alright to ban people's rights and scientific progress just because the Bible tells you so? Insulin never created hatred. It's not belief I have a problem with. Belief is fine. What I have a problem with is pre-determined doctrine, especially when it's causing these huge problems.

So no thanks, I will continue to debate against religion. Maybe it does nothing to you, but it does to me.

Well sorry about your Dad but sometimes we just have to grow up and accept that this is a coping mechanism for the weak minded and just go on about our lives. The world is not going to change unless its people do. You can try to push your views on others but you will get the same kind of responses that you have in the first replies to this thread. Its up to you if you want to focus on everything that is wrong because of religion or to think of how much worse it might be if we didn't have this for people to cling to. In time it will fade away. You were just born in the wrong era.

But where do we draw the line? Let people cling to their ideas and customs...but what happens when those ideas and customs hurt other people? Should we turn the other cheek? Ignore the obvious?

He was not born in the wrong era, his Dad was.

Exactly. There has to be a line between what we will and will not tolerate. I myself will tolerate any belief that does not negatively influence the way a person interacts with other human beings. Otherwise, I don't support it, and I will challenge it. I know that beliefs are a crutch truethat, but the believers don't need to start whacking people with their crutches, you know what I mean?

OMG I was talking about this a few weeks ago to my partner...I asked we all assume as to WHY God dont show himself...but Satan?? whats up with him?? I mean he is supposed to be against God, he is supposed to want us to follow him and not God, so how come he dont show himself either?? hmmmmmm!!

So then I thought, what if Satan is just something made up to scare us into following God??? remember I said what IF. its possible that he is just made up...after all if I where as powerful as Satan and I wanted y'all to follow ME and only ME...I would terrorize every last one of ya and show myself...I'd make Freddy Krugar look like an angle of heaven

But as this is reality...it doesnt work that way....Satan has never shown himself...although some religious people will say he has, but cant prove it. Some like to blame all that has gone wrong in this world, is the work of Satan...LOL but its not IMO...its like everything else...sh*t happens just like Good things happens they balance out!!

You make a good point.

Although, on your topic of "what if Satan is made up by God" there's a few things wrong with that:
1. God then has a lot of blood on his hands for no good reason.
2. He's lied to his own people, thus making him imperfect.
3. There are stories in the Bible that show Satan directly interacting with people.

You see, Christianity always becomes super-adaptable when it's under fire. If God won't show himself, then maybe satan will. If satan won't show himself, then maybe satan is made up by God to trick us into doing the right thing. Did you ever just consider that maybe neither God or Satan exists? The point is that the Bible talks about these 2 immortal beings, and says that they're REAL, and they have REAL plans. Yet, there are no outside accreditable and provable eyewitness reports that claim to have ever seen either of these 2 beings in all of history. If there was a God, he would be telling us his commands on his own. If there was a Satan, he would be killing us all as he did Job's family (God never even gave Satan permission over Job's relatives, yet Satan was still able to kill them). If these things SHOULD be happening and ARE not happening, and every logical place that we should find evidence turns up absolutely nothing, maybe the religion is just wrong about things. You see what I'm saying? Even if the rapture never happens, Christians will always be saying that it's right over the horizon.

You make a good point.

Although, on your topic of "what if Satan is made up by God" there's a few things wrong with that:
1. God then has a lot of blood on his hands for no good reason.
2. He's lied to his own people, thus making him imperfect.
3. There are stories in the Bible that show Satan directly interacting with people.

You see, Christianity always becomes super-adaptable when it's under fire. If God won't show himself, then maybe satan will. If satan won't show himself, then maybe satan is made up by God to trick us into doing the right thing. Did you ever just consider that maybe neither God or Satan exists? The point is that the Bible talks about these 2 immortal beings, and says that they're REAL, and they have REAL plans. Yet, there are no outside accreditable and provable eyewitness reports that claim to have ever seen either of these 2 beings in all of history. If there was a God, he would be telling us his commands on his own. If there was a Satan, he would be killing us all as he did Job's family (God never even gave Satan permission over Job's relatives, yet Satan was still able to kill them). If these things SHOULD be happening and ARE not happening, and every logical place that we should find evidence turns up absolutely nothing, maybe the religion is just wrong about things. You see what I'm saying? Even if the rapture never happens, Christians will always be saying that it's right over the horizon.

Its funny how ONLY IN THE BIBLE it says - satan interacted with people init?? LMAO...not in this century nope!!

Think about it...there is NO real evidence of Jesus being here on earth right?? And when someone questions that...they get the same ole answer from a religious person and that answer is --"Aha but there is no evidence because Jesus rose from the dead thats why!!" ... I say thats just a stupid responce to cover up the fact there aint no real evidence. What happens when you say this?? -- You are told to NEVER question the bible or God!! in otherwords..please dont ask, cuz we haven’t got the real answers...so politely shut up!!!

There is no evidence to prove the devil himself walked this earth either..NONE...but because the bible (a man made one) says so..thats it, dont dare question it, cuz once again, no one knows and to be honest the bible is hardly real hard core evidence!!!

WHat happened to those who once dared to question the bible and dared to think from outside the box?? -- they where called satans children and witches therefore burned alive!!! and ya wonder just WHO was really evil??

I find it very hard to believe the devil exists...I believe he is made up like the boogyman...to scare you to follow God...

I follow God, but it has nothing to do with what a church or book tells me...I follow him because I want to..nothing to do with fear!!

Re, the OT: Where is satan?

Well, to hear tell it, jesus is somehow always found in prison, yet none there ever claim to have also found the devil. So I'd say one place he's not is with jesus.

Satan and his demons were kicked out of heaven and sent to earth. Until he is destroyed after the 1000 year rein of Jesus. And finally the issue of universal sovereignty will be resolved.

You haven't really made any points here.. if Satan is here on earth, again, why the heck is he so dormant? Secondly, when is the "1000 year rein of Jesus" supposed to be? Jesus *supposedly* died 2,000 years ago.

If we accept for a moment that both God and Satan are real, but instead of believing in the "contemporary non-biblical Christain mythology", we take the ancient scriptures as face value, then Satan is the obedient Servant of the Old Testament God. He can harm no one without God's permission. This is the real Satan of the Bible.

On the contrary, the "Christian Satan" is a powerful evil entitity that is the opponent of God, but this dualistic idea was stolen form Zoroastrian mythology and has no place in the original hebrew monotheism.

Satan was apparently made "lord of this world" so he could help Jesus destory the Roman Empire and make Jesus the king of the entire, Jewish run world, which is what the Messiah was supposed to do. Jesus refused his offer, and now Christians call this "the temptation". If he has not been recalled to Heaven, perhaps Satan is the legendary reddish colored "dinosaur" hiding out in the Congo waiting for further orders. For the Biblical Satan was never a fallen angel, or an angel at all, this is another non-biblical Christain myth. Satan is a Seraph, a word that means "fiery flying serpent" in Hebrew, and translated to the Greek word "Drakon". These Drakons in both Jewish and Christian art look much like the Congo dinosaur with a long neck. So that's the best guess to where Satan might be today. He probably doesn't want to show himself, for while he may have been literally invinceable to iron age man, when he offered Jesus the world, but it is a different world today and he may not be immune to modern weapons. Obviously, he is not "ruling Hell", because this is another fake addition to the Christian mythology. So yes, Satan may have shown himself in the past, as did many other Seraphs on their short visits to the Earth to apply heavenly retribution of the wicked. Our ancestors called them dragons, and their visits here seem to have become less frenquent after the invention of gunpowder, as reports of dragons burning down houses and carrying off cattle have markedly decreased since the invention of guns.

There is nothing as god or satan.. there is nothing as good or bad.. we created these words for a meaning.. our mind influence us to do something.. when the things goes good... we say god... when the same goes bad we say satan.. atleast our crooked mind found some1 to blame! Actually these good and bad influence we call as god and satan.. we have to find whoes influence is this.. whom am i... is it i or someelse?

I doubt Satan exists more than I doubt the existence of God Almighty...Isn't Satan just the "accuser"?
Satan, devils, demons, etc cannot exist. Absolute evils will destroy and consume each other as jealousy, greed, hatred, etc will make co-existence between them impossible.
So, if Satan exists, he has gotta be a lone wolf. As a lone wolf, if God & angels exist, wouldn't Satan be very vulnerable to be destroyed?

You are right that Satan would be destroyed if he was the "ultimate evil Christian mythology Satan", but that is not what the real Bible says about him. But you did get the accuser part right. According to the real Bible, Satan observes human culture, reports its inequities to God, and sent to punish mankind at times. He works for God throughout the Old Testament, and nowhere in those scriptures does any great patricarch identify him with the serpent in Eden (which is a garbled retelling of a much older Sumerian story where the dragon is "good"). Satan does not become the "evil opponent of God" until Zorastrian dualism and pagan Hellenistic ideas melded with Judaism to become the most popular religion in the Western world, "because it incorporated all the things people wanted in their religion. But unforutnately, the religion sorely contradicts the "Bible" it was supposed to be based on, for in the real Bible, Satan is called a Son of God, and this God is constantly sending him to earth to carry out His will. But they never tell you that part in Christian Sunday School.

Incidentally, the real Satan, and the other Seraphim, who are the highest creatures of the Biblical theology, are imbedded in Chinese culture as well. In Hebrew, the word Seraphim means fiery flying serpents. When translated into Greek by both the ancient Christians and Jews the word became Drakones, and the English word is Dragons, or Lung in Chinese. But later on, Christianity turned the heavenly dragons into fluffy, swan winged human angels like you see in cartoons. The real angels of the bible look no different from regular men. But much of "modern Christian mythology" has nothing to do with the real Bible. You are right, devils and demons do not exist, and dragons are heavenly creatures in many cultures, even the real Bible. And as world wide legends attest, these dragons have both helped and hurt mankind as the creator deems appropriate.