I've been pondering this particular question for a long time. I told a pastor friend of mine a long time ago when I was young and impressionable about some of my experiences and his response to me that anything I see or hear is not of God and it was most likely demonic. He said that I should ignore what ever it was I was experiencing since God hates anything that has to do with psychic or paranormal phenomenon. He quoted those familiar versus concerning witches and necromancers, etc. He also quoted the verse, "Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. We live by faith, not by sight. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord." That is in II Corinthians by the way. His argument is that when a person dies, their spirit will go be with the Lord and nonbelievers, . . . well I'm not going to go talk about that.

Now that I'm older and hopefully a little wiser, I keep thinking about this. I can't ignore that there is a spiritual realm that a lot of us don't see. However, I believe people are sensitive to things. I also think the pastor took his bible quotes completely out of context. So, my question is, is it really conceivable that a person's spirit can never visit a loved one. My pastor friend says that why would they even want to if they are with the Lord, who would want to leave him? That's why God has his Angels and the Demons are the ones who mess with people.

I can't help but think God gives people certain gifts and I believe being sensitive to the spiritual is a gift whether someone is able to sense things, hear things or even see things.

So, do you all think this pastor's counsel was off base or maybe I'm just confused. I'd love to read what you all think.

I think the pastor did what most of them do.....Just becuase they are suppose men of god does not mean they know it all.....My Grandfather was a preacher with a huge church, and he never tried to lead people into thinking one way or the other, he stated the fact's as told to him in thew bible and then let you make up your won mind......He also knew and understood that some of us where different and that didn't make you a bad person or one of the devil's children...I'm a born witch and no i do not worship the devil, I have a strong belief in God and i try to do what's right all the time.....It sounds like you just had the wrong prist to ask these's question too....

Hello,

Many realize the love of God includes All That Is. Sometines we restrict our perception of this. However the more willing a person is trust in their own heart, the easier it is to have compassion for those who limit their points of view.

You sound like a person with an open heart and mind. Let that be your guide.

John

See this is where things get confusing for me and that's why I don't really buy the Bible.

I thought that when ppl died now they're in some sort of nowhere state waiting to rise up with Jesus when He comes back? If that's the case how can they already be with God??

I dunno, I just don't do the Bible.

I don't wish to offend anyones faith or beliefs with my answer and I'm fully aware that not every church going christian thinks the same way. I know christians who do accept a spirit realm and believe that everyone and anyone is welcome in 'heaven' ...not just christians.

IMO the pastor was off base. Not everything that links in or makes contact with us here from the spirit realm is of a evil/demonic nature.....There is far more good than bad.

I myself am a christian but not in the modern "religious lifestyle" sense. I totally believe in the realness of many of these spiritual and supernatural occurances you'll find in these forums. (Not all of them by far though.)

I feel that the purpose for God's word has always been for wisdom and protection. It's not some cold rule book with fancy ancient stories. I've checked out those verses before just to make sure I don't get myself in a jam with my fascination with the paranormal etc. I think the pastor gave advice based on all that he perceived from his personal knowledge at the time. Pastors are just teachers so you must remember to go straight to the source yourself sometimes b/c all teachers don't teach the same, some teachers you just can't understand, and let's face it -some teachers are no good at teaching, period.

I think God just tells you not to to mess with that stuff b/c being that supernatural beings whether malevolent or good i.e. angels or demons are so far beyond our human comprehension that we can easily be taken advantage of by the dark ones and end up in way over our heads. Like I said, He's just looking out for us. In the end He's gonna let you do whatever you want though.

The bible doesn't deny an existing spiritual realm. In fact spirtual beings, realms and laws are constantly mentioned in the bible in such a way I think you've seen to be evident which is why you're confused and writing this.

You ask if a person's spirit can visit a loved one or not. Well I do agree that I think the only spirit entities out there are angels & demons (in the generic term) that is entities for good under the rule of the Creator and the exact opposite team that now know nothing but the joy of chaos & destruction. So that would be to say that no I don't think a person's spirit can visit someone. I believe that in your time of need God will send you comfort in a way that you can recieve it, even if it need be in the form of a loved one. What better way really? I think that's why people say that their dead grandmother or someone came to visit them and they felt comfort and safety all around them etc. I also believe that's why people feel fear and terror when an evil spirit "visits" them in humanoid form. Poltergiest or whatever you may have them called to your liking. Both sides will do what's nessecary right?

It's undeniable that God makes people spiritually sensitive. Some in different ways than others. But we were created by a spiritual being who put some of himself in us in order to communicate with him. So what else would you expect. I've got a little weird gift all my own. But it's all in how you use it or the manner in which you attempt to heighten your spirituality that determines, whether it's wrong or right.

I think as long as you have a personal relationship with God, all religiousness, and denominational BS aside, you'll feel it in your gut if you're messing with the wrong supernatural sort a stuff b/c he'll tell you if He's really an active part of your life. I've gotten that "uh uh" feeling quite a few time messing around with some of these links folks will give you in here. Lol. ANyway this is way more novel-like than I intended. I hope you find your peace lady! Good luck & god bless!

My opinion: Your pastor friend was just going by what his religion teaches and his personnel beliefs, not everything out here can be classified as good or evil, after all good and evil depend on your perspective. Making contact with ghosts, spirits, djiin, demons, angels, whatever you want to call them doesnt make you possessed or blessed, or anything of the sort, it just means you have done something not many people get to do, you have made contact with a living (debatable) creature of another dimension, plane of existance, or just made of something other than what we are made of.

Im so glad you brought this up ! My grandmother (bless her heart) drowned when she was 10 years old, and was brought back by her brothers... as I've mentioned this before-- She said that soon after this, she noticed she could see things she couldn't explain, and hear things, knew things and couldn't explain how she knew them. She summed it up to me before she died that "some people can see what's in the air." She thought that some people are designed with heightened spiritual awareness to pick up things, others may not... This was before we knew about NDEs she learned by living.. She was told to leave it alone (this "evil" power ) by her folks, and the church "it was devil's brew." She didn't leave it alone- her ability only got better & my granny had no horns coming out from her head... as far as I could tell that is--.... When I think of a true Christian, she is the first person that comes to my mind...

IMO, What I don't understand since when do people (ANYONE) have ALL the answers? Who KNOWS the answers
for sure? How do you know you know for sure? Who are they to KNOW the answers anyway? A few translated lines of writing on text, a belief, and a "because I said so" makes it genuine? PLEASE!! LOL!!

As far as spirits visiting their loved ones is concerned- wasn't it Jesus who visited the disciples, and Mary, and others after he died? Technically speaking isn't that a haunting?

imo, Your concern/or question is the sole reason why I stay far away from organized religion-- I had to wash the slate completely clean-- start with what I felt was absolutly right..that is between you and God (thru prayer), not thru organized law man percieved translations.

I love this forum. I really appreciate reading everyones opinions. It helps me to look at and appreciate other perspectives. I've tried to ignore the experiences I have had, but now I just cannot ignore them. As I have gotten older and have done some studying on my own, I absolutely believe that God doesn't mess with us. Life is hard enough without the higher power others may believe in to just add more trouble or chaos to it.

Sunny98, I'm so glad you mentioned Christ appearing to his loved ones after His resurrection.

I also agree that some have a gift of discernment to sense whether something is of the "yucky" kind or of the "loving" kind. The definition of faith itself is believing something without actually have the proof of seeing it, if you know what I mean.

This is a great discussion and I hope to hear more.

By the way, thanks John A Spera for the compliment. I really do hope I am someone who does have an open heart and mind.

I could not agree more with Veritas! Very well said.

Could it be easier for some pastors/churches to deny the existance of the spirit realm because they don't understand how to approach/preach within the boundries of the bible ?

One thing I notice alot is when people misinterpret an experience as being bad/demonic when it wasn't. Be it something like an episode of SP or a real experience...

It's normal to fear the unknown, it's normal to equate feelings of fear/anxiety about something we don't understand as being something bad/negitive. But we should also consider and recognise that this is a instinctive reaction, like a reflex, it doesn't always mean something is bad/negitive.

Alot of encounters tend to catch people unaware when they least expect it, so the fright factor.. Say it was a cat, person or bird that was the 'culprit' you would still get a fright and feel scared untill realising it was just a cat, then you feel silly for reacting and then everything would feel ok!. If it's not something you can explain or place/recognise then in trying to understand it, it gets put away as a negitive experience. Your intial reaction becomes the remembered experience instead.

I totally agree with everything you say here, Anvil. I think in my case it comes to me maturing and finally looking at my experiences objectively. When I experience something now, my first reaction is not that of fear and I try to look at as objectively as I can. For example, my music boxes will sometimes play and that used to really scare me, but now I try to analyze what could cause it. Sometimes there is a valid reason for one of them to play on their own. One of my kids may have dropped something heavy and the vibration cause the music box to play a few notes. Then again, there have been times that I can't figure out why one of them would play on their own. There have been other things, so I've gotten used to it. My daughter experiences similar things as well. I just can't help wonder why a man who has studied at a seminary and would claim to be a man of faith would just discount a persons real experiences and relegate those to not being of God when clearly God is a spiritual being, hence we ourselves are spiritual beings just occupying a physical form for a time. It has caused me some turmoil in my younger days trying to reconcile this and hopefully now I'm finally getting to a place where I am confident in my own faith and foundation.

The majority of Christians, just like the majority of people, have never had a spiritual experience. I have noticed that people who have not personally come in direct contact with the spiritual world, as much as they may want to believe you when you tell them about your experience or as much as they may "know" that the spiritual world is real, really can't completely believe it, it's like trying to explain color to someone who is blind; they may believe what you say, and may believe that colors are real, but they will never know what you are talking about. So, maybe part of the reason this pastor said what he said is because although he's read the Bible, and knows the Bible talks about powers, principalities, demons and angels, he had never experienced it and could not consider it as reality.

Sounds like you are

If you have personal experiences and they don't quite fit what XYZ says or are not accepted then I think it's perfectly ok to question and re-evaluate. No one person has all the answers.

Hey you never know that Pastor may have changed his views over time..

Once you do find that place (spiritual comfort zone) you will know it, and it will take you to such greater places spiritually. The past few years I have realized I have an ability to discern situations, people, places- I've began to actually pay attention when it starts. I can go into places and feel the spiritual vibe there good, or bad, I can tell you if a person is worthy to be trusted or not, ... If a person has deviancies (past present), and should be avoided.. (sounds nuts, but its true), and there is so much more. This actually has helped me on my job. I wouldn't call this evil at all. Like Anvil said, what is not understood is usually looked at as a bad thing, this shouldn't be the case...

--->Remember this too, 1Corinthians 12 talks about (spiritual gifts)- wouldn't these same gifts be misconscrewed as being of the "devil" or of an "evil" source if it weren't for the bible itself writing it?

Your preacher friend means well, but he loses more than he realizes-- He is standing by that standard structure of organized faith/religion... One person's perception is taught to feed generations and generations. That is why God gave us the ability to think in and of our own minds- an ability to read- the capacity for logic. To research that question for ourselves and not always accept what is being taught. When the holy spirit urges you to go further, and something feels unsettling, usually there are reasons behind it...

well said iams one cannot fully understand what they have not experienced for themself

To me, you either believe the Bible or you don't. There are other debates, such as which version, etc. that I won't get into. I believe the Bible is God's written word and I go by it. The Bible says there is a great gap between the living and the dead. However there is, at least, one example, that of Samuel visiting Saul, of the dead visiting the living. The mainstream Christian view of most of these occurrences (the real ones reported here) is that they are demonic in nature and not examples of the dead coming back to visit or plague the living. As to my own views, I do not rule out actual dead people somehow visiting the realm of the living, but I do think that most negative occurrences labeled as "hauntings" on this forum ARE demonic manifestations.


"My pastor friend says that why would they even want to if they are with the Lord, who would want to leave him?"

Who cares about this? It's what God allows, not what people want. It's actually who you are dealing with. Most of these occurrences have to be dealt with on an individual basis. Those whose fruits are ultimately negative are not of God.

"I can't help but think God gives people certain gifts and I believe being sensitive to the spiritual is a gift whether someone is able to sense things, hear things or even see things."

I think you have to ask yourself what the end result(s) of these "gifts" are. Ultimately, do they serve to help people and/or elevate God/Jesus in the hearts and minds of folks? Or do they wear the individual who has them down or take him/her or others away from Jesus?

"So, do you all think this pastor's counsel was off base or maybe I'm just confused."

I am not trying to give offense at all here, but rather illustrate a portion of the human condition. There is no way for us to know exactly what he said or meant because we were not there. Assuming that your memory is accurate, I think he was trying to steer you in the right direction. The problem here as in many areas, is the lack of a similiar knowledge base for both parties, which inhibits affective communication. If both sides knew the same thing though, there would be no reason for communication in the first place. I will say that for a Christian preacher to deny the spirit realm nigh onto completely tears down the faith. For the Christian faith to be real there must be a spirit realm. There must be the supernatural. It was common when I was growing up to attend church and then have the preachers or lay people say "there's no such thing as ghosts". Some of them meant well. They meant to allay the natural fears a child has of the unknown. IMHO, they do nothing for the child if based upon an untruth, despite the best of intent. Part of this was the trend of our western society away from the spirtual and towards the physical brought about by the great interest in science of the period. Going clear back to Thomas Jefferson, and his "bible" commissioned to have all the miracles taken out of it, and back beyond, I'm sure, there have always been those "within" the church who have sought to divorce the spiritual from our existence and deny it. It is nothing short of error. Still others are bandying semantics when they say there is no such thing as ghosts. They are literally stating what they believe and have been told about the great gap between the two realms and the difficulty and seldomness of its crossing. They are failing to educate the kids in that even if they believe completely this way, there are spiritual manifestations in this world that people call "ghosts" be they angelic, demonic or something else in origin. This is simplifying the argument to the point of it being unintelligible. So, with what you've given us of the conversation, it seems that your pastor was giving you the normal explanation of a Bible-believing, orthodox, conservative denomination of Christianity.

As far as confusion goes, it is quite common and just as commonly understandable. In the final analysis, it is undeniable that the Bible remains silent on some things, says little about others and is difficult to translate on yet other issues. This is not a criticism but an acknowledgment that God is the only One who knows all.

I think the pastor was way off-base. Have a look at some books about spirit mediumship and see if the messages from beyond strike you as evil and demonic in origin. No way.

Then again when you look from the christian perspective, Satan and his demons are not ment to torture and destroy but to corrupt and un-balance the relationship between God and man. The demon doesn't come to you as the more known and fictionalized "Hellfire and Brimstone" but as a second answer to the mysteries of the world. If God says no, the devil will say yes. If God keeps the truth from you the devil will give you an answer. If God says that the only spirit world is his kingdom of Heaven then the devil will disprove that by showing you another. In short if the devil gives you a "spiritual" encounter and you are a non-christian or a confused christian or even a non-beliver it's going to be a happy lovey fortune telling type of spirit and not a evil horrific apparation. Because in order to sale his wares, he must first get in the door. With that medifore in mind, are you more willing to let a scary demaning and forceful door-to-door salesman into your home or a happy freindly "How's the wife and kids", type?

As a follower of Jesus' teachings, I do attend church gatherings to followship among believers but what is most important is prayer, not organized religion. Ask the Holy Spirit to clear your mind and to guide you, in the name of the Lord, Jesus. Of course it doesn't hurt to pick the Bible and read it however you have to be in the right state of mind, be at peace, tranquil, as you nurish your soul. Demonic attacks, harrassments, or what ever negative forces that one may experience, it can be stopped through Jesus. One battle demonic forces (spirits) spiritually and not by way of the Hollywood methodology of waiving bibles in the air, crucifix, and holy water, these tools do not work if the person using them are faithless and playing demon hunter, in a matter of fact, it is quite dangerous. Allow God's Light to bathe you from inside out.

I thinks demons are just mental illness before people had enough infomation to make real diagnosis and treatment. Just through fundementalism has the idea survived. Angels are also linked to psychological shock of those who survive serious illness or for example a car crash. These things are more likely the rement of old ideas before medicine started to be able to accuratly diagnose and cure mental illness.

I do agree with you. Your only problem is that your looking at it from your perspective. Now don't get me wrong because I understand what your saying. The only way to battle demons is through Christ. But like I said in my earlier note, what about the non-christian, or better yet the athiast non- beleiver? You have to put your words in a perspective that they can understand without being offended. In short and to add to my earlier qoute, the only thing people hate more than a rude salesman is a pushy one!

LMAO! I am cracking up over here!!...gotta use that one!



I totally believe that people who actually die and are resusitated (<--can't spell?) become "dimensionally heightened" if you can understand that.



That's funny too , b/c I never really thought about that. But actually they said he physically came back from the dead. So that would make him alive b/c he was still in his human body. My theory is, if people who are dead for minutes come back super-mentally heightened, and Jesus was said to be dead for threee days and came back, then he really did have it all! I mean dang, he had it going on obviously, doing the ascension and all.

You are apparently ignoring all those people who are resuscitated and end up as vegetables because their brain was without oxygen for too long.

How unbalanced of me. I guess since you know so many "vegetables" I'd like to retract that statement. It would be fair for me to say they are useless and have no heightned senses at all b/c you've cleared that up for me now.

Wow, can't take a little reminder that not all people come back with "heightened" perceptions? Why are you so touchy about this? I was merely pointing out that "being brought back" is not a ticket to increased powers, which should have through basic logical thought led to the conclusion that after more than 48 hours without oxygen, if Jesus had simply been brought back He would not have been in any shape to do the things He did. Jesus's resurrection was not a simple matter of Him being brought back.

So what would be the point of a demon trying to mess with a non-believer or an athiest? If the demon's job is to take ppl away from Jesus, isn't a non-believer and/or athiest already there??

To draw believers away from Jesus.

As to the original question. The pastor was out of order because by saying that, he is also denying the Trinity. The Holy Spirit is active in the world not only through believers but also as a seperate entitiy. (Bible not to hand at the moment so can't give references). During the creation story as told in the one of the gospels it is noted the spirit was above the waters. Since no man was around it must be able to work without believers. Jesus also spoke to spirits, some demons and some saints. The only advise given is not to mess with spirituality, eg. don't get involved unless you are given a gift of the spirit that requires this contact.
The basic rule of thumb for Christianity is that you check that your experiance is not in conflict with the Bible. Also bearing in mind that the Old Testament is a guidline to behaviour infront of God, the new testament is a guildline to behaviour infront of man and the teachings of Christ are commands that must be obeyed at all times.

Did you even read my question?? The question was why would a demon mess with people who already don't believe in God and try to draw them away when they are already away from God if they are non-believers or atheists?

Good question

So, anything that takes you far from Jesus is demonic in origin? I guess for me that would be the New Testament. But I never noticed anything in any purported communications from beyond that was anti-Jesus, anti-Heaven, or anti-God. Usually it's just dead folks saying hello. That's about as demonic as a postcard from Aunt Gladys.

Sorry didn't put that quite right.

A demon will act through non-believers to draw believers and fence sitters from Jesus.
A simple example of this would be ... A demon gives a non-believer an alien abduction experience. During this a message is passed that God does not exist and that the whole world was made by a dolphin called Jim.
As soon as possible the non-believer then reports his experience. It is the most amazing story and he collects a following of people. Some of these people may have had an open mind before but now it has been closed. Others would be Christians that are still looking for something they can hold onto and visualize.They will never be convinced to seek any other truth until sometime that either a fraud is proved (then they may still stubbernly hang on to their believe that Jim the dolphin is the creator), or that the Holy Spirit catches up with them in a personal way.

I hope this explains it a bit better.

I would say that was an SP episode

Wow, I've never read a case like that. The demons aren't doing too great a job passing on their anti-God message, it seems.

That is where checking it does not contradict the Bible comes in. If Aunt Gladys just said " You left your wedding ring in the bathroom behind the soap dish." this clearly would not go against the Bible and maybe considered as spiritual activity.
If she had said "The world was created by Jim the dolphin" then this would be in conflict with the Bible and maybe considered as demonic activity.

>>edited spelling

I can agree with this attitude, although for me the issue would be that the demonic message conflicts with common sense.

I certainly would not just believe any old thing a "spirit" or "space alien" told me.

Their probably has been one but it didn`t get much attention. If not I'll give it a fortnight till somebody tries it.

If my memory serves me correctly, I believe there were plenty of ghosts in the Bible. Samuel 28:15 says: And Samuel said to Saul: Why hast thou disturbed my rest, that I should be brought up?. In Mark 9:4 its says: And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus. Those are straight forward accounts of spirits on earth.

And as far as the demonic visitations or threats to people.....If you are a non-believer then there would be no reason for them to attack you, there's no threat there. My personal understanding is this: Once you have salvation, its yours forever, it can't be taken away. But, Satan and his followers will try to break you down so that you can't talk to others about Jesus.

It's like if you were to find a GREAT scientific discovery that would jeopardize large companies. The companies would do everything in their power to demolish this and prove you wrong. They might even tell you that you can use this discovery for yourself and then pay you millions to keep your mouth shut so that they can continue to make profit. If you never threaten these companies then they don't have any reason to attack you...

Not sure if thats a great analogy...I still may have some alcohol in my system from New Years!!

Perhaps my sarcasm is a bit harsh. So I've heard. Anyway...the comment was to reflect the foolishness of the whole vegetable bit in my personal opinion. (As is the purpose of the forum...) Obviously all people don't come back from the brink of death all magical, skipping and singing about lucky charms. What would be the point in suggesting that anyone would think that?? Your comment seemed illogical to me, as if you were offended that the "vegetables" were left out of the equation, so I responded with illogical sarcasm to make myself smile -like I am now.

I was simply reiterating the belief that the christian community believes christ Came back to his disciples in his complete physical form as a MIRACLE, i.e. not a ghost in regards to someone elses comment. The key word there being the miracle thing there.

Salvation can be lost. If someone said " I believe" and then went out to rape and murder someone they would have lost their salvation by their actions.
If you hear something from a person you should still check with the Bible. If the person is a man of God ask him for his reference material.

If you recieved money for being quiet then you have already been dealt with. The fact they gave you money is proof that you threatened them at some point with your discovery.
The spanish inquisition didn't let the quiet ones off. If you said you had a sun god you were a target. If you said you had no god it still got the same result.
You never got the choice to sit quietly in the background.

It's still sort of saying a demon will visit an atheist to make them more of an atheist which to me, makes no sense at all. The argument that the demon picks on the atheist so the atheist can recruit people on the fence is illogical because an atheist would already be recruiting in the demon's favor.

It's kind of moot to me anyway since I don't believe in demon possession and the like.

Ok, I'm gonna speak on the subject of SIN. Is one sin greater than the other? If so, which ones take your salvation and which ones give you a slap on the wrist? My belief is you never lose salvation, if you steer away then you lose the blessings and the teachings He wants to give you. Jesus didn't die with a clause in the agreement. That would defeat the purpose of Him dying. I'm not saying take advantage of it, because when you receive salvation you always know the love and that is what His overall message is....Love.

I think this topic is out of place on this forum, but as far as the analogy, it was just an example of someone being a threat. If you sit quietly and say nothing, you would be a ghost in the overall picture.....(did you see how I threw in GHOST? Keeping true to the forum here...haha)

I'm with you, I can all be pretty much explained with mental illness. Even the Churches are hard pushed to accept such things

I'm with you on this one....If anything you would be visited by all things Holy to get you to understand God. Not the other way around....

Wow, this discussion sure has taken on a life of its own. Let me try to clarify my original question a little more.

The counsel I received when I was younger was that my experiences were not of God and that I should denounce them (it feels strange just writing this). He kept bringing up examples of how God hates witches, diviners, necromancers, etc. He used the Bible to back up his points, then again Jim Jones and David Koresh used to Bible to make their points as well and we all know how well those people ended up.

After reading your posts I'm reminded of all the stories where there are spirits, ghosts, angels, whatever you want to call them, visiting people with various messages. We're also told that we should test those spirits.

Why would a pastor tell my young self that what I experienced (and still do at times) not be of God? It messed me up for some years there. I'm now embracing my "gift" if that is what it is. Look, I'm not sitting in a dark room with a candle chanting asking for a presence to visit me. I believe everyone has some discernment and not just with spiritual things. I tell my kids all the time that if someone approaches them and something seems off about them, and they get this gut feeling that they should get away from them, then run. That gut feeling is discernment.

I've never been scared. I've been startled a little by some things that happen, but nothing that makes me scream and flee. There a logical explanations to some things I experience and at times there are not. So, if God is a spiritual being, and we are spiritual beings in a temporary physical form, then why would someone say that anything ghost like is demonic?

I think because he told you what he believed was the right thing in his mind. I don't think he meant to mess you up really. He is only human after all.

Right. That's just paranoid. Take John Edward for example. The strongest indictment I can level at him is that he's corny. But demonic? Diabolical? I don't think so.

Your pastor was asking you to base your relationship to this universe on suspicion and fear. We carry this tendency forward from various Inquisitions and witch hunts and whatnot, but those things are over, and it doesn't have to be that way today. You can be choosy and critical, but you don't have to be afraid. No God I know of is up in Heaven looking for excuses to send you to Hell.

In any case, it is always up to you to decide whether a message is good or evil or something else entirely. God could appear as a burning bush right before your pastor's eyes, and it would still be up to your pastor to judge whether it was God or the Devil (or a space alien or whatever). Your pastor tries to attain certainty by pushing the decision off on God and the Bible, but the truth is that he can't. I think this is what you're sensing is wrong with what he's asking of you.



Because they get a sense of security by severely limiting their own experience. Many people are ruled by selfish fear-- fear of what will happen to themselves. They base their lives on it-- relationships, jobs, religion, everything. They become control freaks. Do you see how the unknown is threatening to such a mindset? You've refused to go this route, and so the way I see it is that you've opened up all kinds of avenues for experience and growth.

There is a chance that you could set an example to those who are afraid. Sort of like Columbus, you could sail over the horizon and say, see? I didn't fall off the edge of the world. Maybe that's what your interaction with this pastor represents.

You are absolutely right, coldethyl, the pastor is only human. I know where he was coming from back then, but it hasn't been until these last few months that I've really been looking at my faith and what it really means to me. He meant well, I'm sure of that.




Boorite, you're right when you say that is up to me, or any individual for that matter, to decide for themselves what their beliefs are and how they perceive things. I think I'm finally understanding what my journey is and what it is I want to learn from it.

Unfortunately, I've passed that same information from my pastor on to my son and now I think I've closed my son off to the point where he doesn't accept that people can have "spiritual experiences" similar to what I've experienced and what my daughter has experienced. He's a very intelligent boy. He's 15 going on 35, so I feel kind of guilty that I've closed his mind to this possibility. He sees things as black and white, either it's real or it's not. I love talking to him and we have so much fun debating various things. I guess it goes back to what Boorite says, my son will have to decide for himself. I'm just sorry that I wasn't more open to things when discussing spiritual issues with him when he was younger. My daughter on the other hand has a mother who is a bit more wiser and able to explain things a little better.

"edited for spelling"

Because if the devil can prove something that God denies then he's proving God inferior and or for a better word fake. He messes more with non-belivers because from his perspective his whole goal is to lead astray as many people from the christian religion. He will have a larger effect on the non-believer because they either don't or don't want to believe in the christian religion especially if that person is trying to disprove it. A christian will be harder to corrupt because they have the teachings of Christ in their knowlege. The true way of the christian is to follow the teachings of Christ and through those teachings you understand and get thie message of what the devil is truly trying to do. If the devil came as an apparation of evil to a non-beliver stating, I am Satan! Lord of Evil and am on the earth to destroy Jesus Christ and his church!" He is basicly proving that God exists and that the bible is correct, something that I wouldn' think anyone in their right mind would do if trying to prove or provoke disbelief in something. If all ghosts are demons in spiritual form on earth and wander around disguising themselves as happy freindly future telling spirit guides then people of non-christian teaching are going to except them as that spiritual realm that they wonder about. Most non-belivers have the concept of seeing is believing, so if God hides Heaven and states that there is no other spirit world but it but never shows it to you and tells you to have blind faith in this and the devil shows you another spirit world right in front of you face and you don't have that faith in Christ, who will you believe?

Look at the big story about catholic preists raping little boys and tell me that wasn't one. Would you send you son to a catholic boarding school if you knew they were rapists? Or would you feel confident confessing to or seeking ministry from a preist that molested over twenty boys under the age of sixteen? Then again think about how the catholic church has always been a figure head for christian religion and how it's credibility was crushed in a simple news report and tell me that wasn't a anti chiristian attack.