Hello all,

A while ago I came across an intriguing story online that I'd like someone to debunk please, mostly because it's a little too cool to be true.
I apologise if this has been dealt with before, but I did a site search on the bloke's name and it came up empty.

Anyway, in 1895, on a beach in front of dozens of journalists and other witnesses, a Sanskrit Scholar called Shivkar Bapuji Talpade presented an unmanned machine that flew about a hundred feet into the air. He claimed to have based all the technology for his machine on ancient Vedic writings. His device used a mercury vortex engine, a technology NASA are currently working on. There are apparently loads of other old writings, dealing, in depth, with navagation, transportation, military applications, preferred flying techniques and so on. These (Vaimanika Sastra - Aeronautical Science) and other writings suggest that a handful of an elite cast in an otherwise historically predictable society somehow had the technology to create flying machines.

I want this debunked because I don't want to go around believing something untrue, especially something I'd very much like to be true. I've looked online on this subject a lot and there are various different off-shoots up to and including ancient nuclear wars. I thought I'd start small and try to find if Mr Talpade did actually do this infront of all these credible witnesses. I ran aground in people's enthusiasm for Stargate-style histories in favour of anything resembling fact. Short of going to India and looking in the paper's achives, I'm not sure how to check this out.

Has anyone already researched this or know anything about Shivkar Bapuji Talpade's claims?

Thanks!

Just had a quick look through the links at google.
A lot of them to be carbon copies of each other, maybe a good idea to trace the first report.
Their is no entry for his name on Wikipedia, but some for the ancient texts used.

Its actually true. And here is a very detailed and in-depth site on the subject of those mentioned ancient flying machines. They are called Vimanas:

http://www.hinduwisdom.info/Vimanas.htm

Thanks for the link.

I've seen sites like these and they make my imagination dance the funky chicken, up until the point it's viciously rugby-tackled by my rationality.
There's a wealth of sources from all over the world, India especially, with fantastical tales about ancient civilisations messing around with what looks to the modern eye like advanced technology.

For advanced technology to be widespread, I would think there'd need to be a massive infrastructure of equivalent technology. Archaeology as I know it simply doesn't support this. There are suggestions that our timescales could be off. Things pop up all the time that can't always be explained, except by dodgy timescales or, in successively more extreme explantions, by aliens or time travel (or occasionally 'rational' explantions more ridiculous than anything else), all of these are dealt with on other threads.

There are several lifetimes of study required in this subject, it's all a little scary. One of the biggest problems is that these ideas are such fodder for the imagination that a non-scholar such as myself finds it all but impossible to tell what might be true from what's understandable but misguided enthusiasm for a lovely idea. The events are all so far in the distant past that we usually have only stories and conjecture.

Our Indian friend, however, might have done something on his beach not much over 100 years ago that would back it all up perfectly.

More info on Shivkar Bapuji Talpade's experiments anyone?

check these out.
http://www.augustmystery.com/MysteryFiles/26flyinghigh.html
http://www.book-of-thoth.com/article_submi...an-vimanas.html

They were called Vimanas by the Hindu. If you look further into flying machines of the past you may see it is possible that Noah's Ark was also a flying machine. used to remove life from this planet, and at a later date when safe, put it back on this planet.

The truth is out there.

LOL, so if somebody makes the plans it must be real?



Then I suppose this is real to...

Of course it's real. My ship's made the Kessel run in less than twelve parsecs. I've outrun Imperial starships, not the local bulk-cruisers, mind you. I'm talking about the big Corellian ships now...

In that hunk of junk?

Saard,

I'm familiar with this tale, but I'm also familiar with the fact that it is only a tale. There's no evidence that it ever happened, and thus no reason to believe that it ever happened.

Also, I want to say that maybe you should re-read the story you're talking about here. As I recall, this man never claimed to have used the knowledge in the Vymanika Shastra because the Vymanika Shastra wasn't written until well after the turn of the 20th century. Not exactly "evidence" of any "ancient flying technology" there!

Harte

Well, one book called the Vaimanika Sastra was written recently by some idiot in a trance, who claimed that it was ancient info.
Will avoid that one where possible, but there are others of the same or similar titles much older.
Why do you say it's all just a tale? There seems to be something to it to me, I'd be surprised and, obviously, dissapointed if it turns out to be just a story.
I'm expecting to hit a dead end where no-one has ever reproduced his results, or he faked it or something.
The event on the beach seems genuine, though I haven't varified it beyond reasonable doubt yet, so you may be right.
Incidentally, that trance guy's not necessarily an idiot, but info beamed into a bloke's head from wherever is a little too spurious, even for me.

oh and yes, the books Shivkar used are apparently Brihad Vaimanik Shastra by Rishi Bharadwaj and Vimana Bindu by Acharya Vachaspati, not the Vaimanika Sastra exactly, unless that turn out to be a name for a group of books about flying. Early stages yet.

Ok, here's the deal. The story checkes out regarding the old writings... Ive read plenty about that and there do seem to be texts that can be interpreted to mean these sorts of things... Its really interesting infact. I havent heard of the person actually building a machine from the descriptions though, because there werent descriptions detailed enough to do so.

Cheers Aztek, your second link was dead handy and has supplied all sorts of things, like names of books and researchers and a company, Hindustan Aeronauticals Ltd, who apparently recieved all his notes (which, bizarrely didn't make a sudden huge advancement in engine science).
Now Harte's post has put the fear in me that the story is apocryphal though, so I'm wanting to somehow check if it actually happened. Don't know how yet.

nasa is researching mercury engines.
One possible ion engine uses mercury as a propellant. The mercury starts as a liquid in a small tank, but its atoms slowly evaporate to form a low-density gas. An electric discharge through this gas, such as occurs inside a fluorescent lamp, knocks electrons off some of the mercury atoms. When a mercury atom loses an electron, it becomes a positively charged mercury ion and can be accelerated from the discharge by electric fields. In the ion propulsion engine, an electric field extracts and accelerates the mercury ions toward a hole in the side of a spaceship. The mercury ions are ejected into space at enormous speeds. As they accelerate, the mercury ions exert reaction forces on the engine and these forces are what propel the spaceship forward. Overall, the mercury ions accelerate in one direction while the spaceship accelerates in the other direction. To keep the spaceship electrically neutral, the engine also ejects electrons into space. However, mercury ions provide most of the engine's thrust.
http://rabi.phys.virginia.edu/HTW/page1.php?QNum=1118

Ok, I've done the obvious and emailed the newspaper, asking them to verify their coverage of the story.
Fingers crossed...

do you honestly think they'll verify 100 years old coverage?? i'm gonna cross all my fingers, hope that helps.

yep. I've worked on papers. If they did it, someone will know about it.
Or they'll be fed up with people like me asking them about something that never happened.
Either way...

At some point in my scrolling from thread to thread here on u.m. I thought I came across a link that reffered to the seven wise men in India, where each mane wrote a book. Each book had plans and discriptions on how to build certin technologies. One book on flight and vemina's, another on weapons such as nuke's, one on space flight well something along those lines anyway. I think if I remember correctly some of the books were found but kept secret. I can't seem to find anything on this.

I once saw a documentary on the ancient south american gold 'aeroplanes'....a model engineer made a flying model from one. Worked well too.

hello

i am harsh** ( don't mind the stars, it's my real name...it means someone who is happy...lol ) sinha from india...and would like to thank you all for discussing something as vimanas. As i am an indian, let me introduce you to some things about the vimana theory. It just so happens that one of our ancient texts, the ramayana, frequently mentions vimanas, and as you all have discussed the person who did the vimana thing in 1895 ( but who dos not have anything on him on google ) i would like to point out that practically no personal recorded history of saints and sages, unless of extreme national power, was ever recorded. this goes for a long time in british rule.
And as you call yourselves non-beleivers in such things, let me tell you some things about indian 'mystical' people. A person in ahmedabad, a saint, mentioned by different names, who was there on NDTV, a national news channel in india has not eaten or drunk anything for many years, yet he survives...he did this after many years of meditation in the himalayas...similarly a person in the same city has survrivd by looking at the sun two hours daily and drinking water.
Similarly, if you have heard about them, there are numerous saints in india, although there are some fake ones too...but the actual power of these people cannot be denied.
This leads us to the second thing. There was an emporor ashoka in around the 2nd century bc in india, i am not so sure of the time period, who is known to have been the founder of the nine unknown men society
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine_Unknown_Men
please read about ashoka also and about the delhi iron pillar too.
Similarly, the mahabharata, another ancient, but more recent text from around 5000 or more years ago, points out that there was an ancient city of dwarka, built by krishna ( a human form of god vishnu, who you might have heard of from ISCKON, again please read about him too
)on the coasts of gujarat...and the city has been found very recently...which proves that these texts are not wrong in all aspects...in fact almost all the facts have been concerned...except a concept of ram janm bhoomi...which is a disputed issue in india as a mosque, build by emperor babur's general, a mughal emperor, who had come from central asia...i personally want the mosque to stay...despite being a hindu...as a destruction of the mosque would be against a religion...
anyways, not getting off the point, ancient texts aren't wrong and so isn't ancient indian knowledge...
infact, the now settlers of a major part of north
india ( me included ) came much later ( called the aryans, who came from central asia and europe ) about 4000 years or so ago...and destroyed a major part of the existing structures including the indus valley civilisation...one of the four main civilisations of the ancient world...
i would like to add more...but later...please see that everything is not passed at criticism...nor any from your part...truth is in everything....you only need to discover it

Actually here on some satelite channel they have started showing the tv programe of the mahabharata. its in Indian but has English subtitles.
Now if this story was writteen 5000 years ago its 5000 years ahead of its time all the battles have visnas they have bombs. i mean if it was written when it says it was there had to be flying machines because its way to scifi to be a coincendence.
Personally i like to think there were visnas and the technology had been passed down by ancient astronauts.

Interesting stuff guys, thanks for sharing

maybe they invented red bull....which would be a perfect explanation

I need some red bull right now...I'm so tired

Stellar,
There's really not much need to determine whether or not to accept someone else's interpretation of these old books (most of them aren't exactly all that old BTW - they were mostly written in the Common Era.) You can find the accepted translations of practically all the translated ones at Sacred-Texts. com Read them yourself and then tell me about these technologically advanced flying machines.

Also, the word "vimana" is a sanskrit term that means "temple roof."



The only descriptions that seem to correspond at all to modern technology are found at pseudoscientific websites or Hindu Creationist websites/publications, like the book "Forbidden Archaeology" by the college droupout and Hindu Creationist Michael Cremo or the scribblings of the former journalist Graham Hancock.

These "ancient" writings are quite long and boring, and these authors take it for granted that nobody is going to wade through the old texts to check on whether or not they are lying. It appears that they are.

Harte

The natural laws of this atmosphere now are so different from the laws of nature in the ancient times. There was so much more pure hydrogen, and pure helium. But, ask yourself what would make you fly? They fill balloons with helium.
In the ancient times they did not have the carbon in the atmosphere to weigh you down. And what about the gravity? What causes gravity? If it were not by the metallic elements in your flesh, you could fly. In ancient times, you could fly for short periods like skipping and each skip would be some distance. Why? In the ancient times, they did not have or did not care to have the oil that we use now. And we get it now by drilling and the supply of oil between the metallic core and the surface is being drained and there is no buffer between the gigantic magnet and the surface. That is why we are weighed down to this earth. The more carbon we put in the atmosphere and the more metallic elements we put in our bodies, the more we become attracted to the huge magnet in the center of the earth.

Yeah! Tell you what, screw the original plan; I'm going with this theory, it's far more entertaining.
If I cut down on the iron in my diet, I reckon I could save money on air-fares.

Actually, no there wasn't more helium or hydrogen. And the "laws of nature" were, of course, exactly the same as they are today.



There was a time in the very ancient past that the atmosphere was almost totally comprised of carbon dioxide. Also, "carbon in the atmosophere" would certainly not "weigh you down." On the contrary, a more dense atmosphere (which it what you seem to imply) would actually make you lighter, as dictated by Archimedes principle of bouyancy.


There are no more "metallic elements in your flesh" today than there were in ancient times. Also, only nickle and iron exhibit magnetic properties, so lumping all the "metallic elements" together is just silly. Plus, the force of gravity is trillions of times stronger at the Earth's surface than is the magnetic attraction supplied by the Earth's geomagnetism.


The tiny amounts of petroleum products extracted from the earth's crust (tiny compared to the rest of the crust) never provided any "buffer." Petoleum is non-magnetic and thus cannot possibly provide such a "buffer." Weight has nothing at all to do with magnetism.

It's obvious to me that you need to do a little homework. I mean, everybody knows that we are stuck to the Earth's surface, not by magnetism, but by the magical snot of the Lord God. It is this viscuous, yet permeable and completely undetectable Divine Mucus which prevents us from flying.

Harte

Hello again,

That newspaper (Kesari newspaper of Pune) never got back to me to confirm whether or not they covered the story (it'll be in their archives).
The problem is, the website is not in English and I sent an email in English.
Unlike me, they're probably not so lazy as to only speak the one language and almost certainly read, understood and didn't reply to my email.

Anyway, I still think it might help if someone emailed them in the right language and politely asked them to verify if they covered the story.
The language is probably Marathi or Hindi, but don't quote me on that.
In my original email, I simply asked them to verify that they covered Shivkar Bapuji Talpade's experiments in unmanned flight on Chowpathy beach, Bombay in 1895.
I kept the details simple as I don't know what the Hindi for 'kook' or 'lunatic' is, but didn't want to be dubbed one and have my email binned.
And I'm sorry, but I don't have a better date than 1895.

Does anyone speak either Hindi or Marathi (or another language that it might be) and can spare five minutes for an email?
If you're game, the website's link is below and the 'contact them' link is on the bottom right-hand corner of the homepage.
You'll find the story's details as the initial post on this thread.

Thanks in advance if anyone does this.

http://www.indiapress.org/gen/news.php/Daily_Kesari/400x60/0

Some additional info should be here.
David Hatcher Childress has written a book on this subject. Regardless of anyone's opinion of Childress, it's worth checking it out. I'll go down to my library and find the title.
Viktor Schauberger, a researcher into natural phenomena (actually a forest ranger), both printed and patented a number of researches on vortex technology. Schauberger was recruited (forcefully) into Nazi aircraft programs, and reportedly developed a vortex turbine. The materials on Schauberger can be found through google. The turbine is not fully understood, but apparently does work, as a number of examples have been built.
Since the Vimana in question worked via the mercury vortex, it would be wise before debunking to research what we do and don't know about the vortex. Know this: university and laboratory research on the subject leaves many questions open.
So the question becomes more what did they (ancients) know that we don't?

The book is "Vimana Aircraft of Ancient India and Atlantis". The book, true or false, provides a good read. Also must remember that Childress doesn't just make this stuff up. The Atlantis "competition" was apparently called "vailx".
Another interesting bit is the character who claims to have discovered how ancients in the "New world" had propulsive means similar to the vimana vortex, although a bit different. The website is http://quantumgravitics.tripod.com/ if anyone is interested.
One of the major universities had a project on vortex action, though the intent was based on tornadoes and the extensive damage they cause. I have one of the papers on this, somewhere in my library, and if I can find it I'll reference the thing.
There is a company in California that builds vortex disposals for industrial purposes. The vortex is used because of its capability to reduce solids into fine particulate matter.
All these books I've acquired as diversionary. These books, among many others, reside alongside many books on electronics, math, calculus, physics, chemistry, et cetera, that I've used in my work as a control systems engineer. In some cases, I make no claims as to the validity of those books; in other cases, they are valid and scientifically reasonable as starting points for research.
I will say this: If one is inclined to remain in the mainstream and expect mundane answers to these questions, perhaps it is better for that individual to stay well clear of such subjects. As has been stated, the more you know, the more you find you don't know.

So you don't speak Hindi, then?
Childress thought everyone and their dog could fly.
Once again, i'm after a Hindi or Marathi speaker who can send a quick email to a newspaper, asking them to verify whether they covered a story. The details are two posts back.
I'm also hoping someone out there has some more info about a chap called Shivkar Bapuji Talpade and his experiments.
Thanks for all these posts about ancient flying machines, really, but I want to narrow a search, not widen it.
So charitable Indian speakers or Shivkar know-it-alls, please step forward.

Although this has all the makings of crack pot theory .The part about NASA using the ancient vedic text for research is actually true.I do recall reading something about it in the times of india right on the fron page(Which does account for some credibility).The text they are referring to is known as the rig veda.I found something similar on another discussion site.Heres an exercpt.
"The Rig Veda, the oldest document of the human race includes references to the following modes of transportation: Jalayan - a vehicle designed to operate in air and water (Rig Veda 6.58.3); Kaara- Kaara- Kaara- a vehicle that operates on ground and in water. (Rig Veda 9.14.1); Tritala- Tritala- Tritala- a vehicle consisting of three stories. (Rig Veda 3.14.1); Trichakra Ratha - Trichakra Ratha - Trichakra Ratha - a three-wheeled vehicle designed to operate in the air. (Rig Veda 4.36.1); Vaayu Ratha- Vaayu Ratha- Vaayu Ratha- a gas or wind-powered chariot. (Rig Veda 5.41.6); Vidyut Ratha- Vidyut Ratha- Vidyut Ratha- a vehicle that operates on power. (Rig Veda 3.14.1).

Ancient Sanskrit literature is full of descriptions of flying machines - Vimanas. From the many documents found it is evident that the scientist-sages Agastya and Bharadwaja had developed the lore of aircraft construction.

The "Agastya Samhita" gives us Agastya's descriptions of two types of aeroplanes. The first is a "chchatra" (umbrella or balloon) to be filled with hydrogen. The process of extracting hydrogen from water is described in elaborate detail and the use of electricity in achieving this is clearly stated. This was stated to be a primitive type of plane, useful only for escaping from a fort when the enemy had set fire to the jungle all around. Hence the name "Agniyana". The second type of aircraft mentioned is somewhat on the lines of the parachute. It could be opened and shut by operating chords. This aircraft has been described as "vimanadvigunam" i.e. of a lower order than the regular aeroplane.

Bhardwaja's "Vaimanika Shastra" not only gives information on his methods of aeroplane construction but also provides a bibliography. He had consulted six treatises by six different authors previous to him. After him too there have been four commentaries on his work. Planes which will not break (abhedya), or catch fire (adaahya) and which cannot be cut (achchedya) have also been described. Along with the treatise there are diagrams of three types of aeroplanes - "Sundara", "Shukana" and "Rukma".

It appears that aerial warfare was also not unknown, for the treatise gives the technique of "shatru vimana kampana kriya" and "shatru vimana nashana kriya" i.e. shaking and destroying enemy aircraft, as well as photographing enemy planes, rendering their occupants unconscious and making one's own plane invisible.

The Arthasastra of Kautilya (c. 3rd century B.C.) mentions amongst various tradesmen and technocrats the Saubhikas as 'pilots conducting vehicles in the sky'. Saubha was the name of the aerial flying city of King Harishchandra and the form 'Saubika' means 'one who flies or knows the art of flying an aerial city'. Kautilya uses another significant word 'Akasa Yodhinah', which has been translated as 'persons who are trained to fight from the sky.' The existence of aerial chariots, in whatever form it might be, was so well-known that it found a place among the royal edicts of the Emperor Asoka which were executed during his reign from 256 B.C. - 237 B. C."

The mahabharata is filled with refferences which may sound similar to flying machines and what not.Even if you read the bible you will find many accounts similar to the description of a far advanced ufo or flying machine.For that matter the accounts of soddom and gommorah has all the makings that may look like a nuclear catastrophe.Pretty scary stuff isn't it.Since the veda is possibly oldest possible document aspect of the vedas there is little question about the credibility.

Dear God,
You should have stopped there.

(My emphasis)
Actually composed "roughly between 1700–1100 BCE " Source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigveda. That's a "mere" two thousand years or more after the actual "oldest document of the Human race" found thus far - in ancient Sumeria.


Unfortunately the "Agastya Samhita" does not exist. Agastya Samhita means, roughly, "the collected works of Agastya" in Sanskrit. But see, Agastya was a legendary character. His "collected works" are about as valuable as the "collected works" of Paul Bunyan.

If you want to disbelieve me, fine. Go ahead and go with what morons claim that Agastya said. But I think that you should be aware that you are also believing that Agastya humbled the Vindhya mountains into ceasing to grow by using his guile. See, this mountain range had gotten too vain. So vain that in fact it had challenged the Sun, saying the Sun should go around rather than over. I wonder if Agastya's technologically advanced methods of communicating with a petulant mountain range are included in his Samhita. If not, why not?


This book, the Vimanyka Shastra, was written in the first part of the twentieth century.


The Arthasastra of Kautilya mentions neither the Saubhikas, Saubika, Harishchandra nor Yodhinah. Think I'm full of it? Then read it yourself!


Bull. Show me Asoka's royal edicts. Asoka had excellent foreign relations with the Greeks, yet they mention nothing like this.


No, it's not. Really. Period.
How do I know? I looked.


Old = credible, eh? Well, then, I suppose you ought to be about slaughtering a few calves to Zeus then, shouldn't you?

Harte

I think they could have flown them to Egypt!!!!!


http://paranormal.about.com/library/weekly/aa032000a.htm

"The Egyptian Airplane

In 1898, a peculiar six-inch wooden object was found in a tomb at Saqquara, Egypt that dated back to about 200 BCE. The object had a body or fuselage, seven-inch wings that curved downward slightly, a fixed rudder and a tail. It looked very much like a modern airplane or glider. But since airplanes had not yet been invented in 1898 (never mind ancient Egypt), it was labeled as a model of bird and stored away in the basement of the Cairo museum.

The object was rediscovered many years later by Dr. Khalil Messiha, an authority on ancient models. According to Messiha and others who have studied the object, it has characteristics of very advanced aerodynamics, much like modern pusher-gliders that require very little power to stay aloft. The curved wings are today known as reversedihedral wings, which can attain great amounts of lift. A similar design is employed on the supersonic Concorde aircraft.

Was this just a child's toy? Or was it a scale model of an aircraft the Egyptians planned to build... or did build. If they did build a full-scale version of the aircraft, no evidence exists for it. No full-size airplanes have been found in any pharaoh's tomb to fly him to the land of the dead.

The Carvings at Abydos....
http://www.kch42.dial.pipex.com/egypttour_abydos.htm

http://www.ufocom.org/pages/v_us/m_archeo/Abydos/abydos.html


http://travel.webshots.com/album/114547146SkQLEX?start=0

Hi everybody,
Joined this forum recently.Its quite interesting to read the various posts.
As far as the initial post regarding the 1895 flight is concerned there is some news in the interesting news heading of a site called www.asnee.com.Apparently it is a small news item in anews paper called deccan herald.
I met a gentleman two months back who has been trying to decipher the vimanika shashtra since the past twenty years(almost)out of his own interest in his spare time.With the deciphered data ,which took a lot of effort and interaction with experts from various fields including ayurveda and (some revelations of the kekule -graphite rings type),he has synthesised 3 alloys and is proposing to synthesise some glasses too.The 3 alloys synthesised, are new compositions with no known modern equivalents and so he is trying to patent them.The synthesis has been done on a very small scale, due to the nature of the process and due to the fact that the researcher is employed in a totally different field.
Since he has been able to synthesise the materials it is definitely possible for a more focussed and bigger team to be able to decipher and synthesise more materials.
Once it is possible to do so, we can wonder and work out in leisure why such materials were developed by ancient cultures(ancient humans all over the world).This requires an open mind and a willingness to rigorously apply the modern scientific methodologies to separate fact from fiction.
According to the gentleman i met ,the ancients'approach to science was linked to spirituality and for various reasons not yet clear certain knowledge was not explicitly given.One had to have certain mental attributes and a certain amount of training in specific disciplines(both material and spiritual) before one could access and comprehend what was being given in the texts/hymns/verses etc.Our ancients had extensive knowledge of materials-why and how they acquired
the knowledge may have to be figured out.
Tried posting twice today morning but couldn't do so.I hope i succeed now.Essential details of the post are the same with a little more info on the researcher and the materials synthesised by him.

are you talking about "Childress.-.Antigravity.and.the.world.grid.(1987)" ? or some other book where he references schauberger?
schauberger developed many things related to "vortex", like the jet-turbine for electricity production, the home-power-station (heimkraftwerk) for imploding water for increased movement and speed = generation of energy, and so on and so forth. he wrote a great deal, most of which is translated by callum coats in his eco-technology series (vol. 1 water wizard vol.2 nature as teacher vol.3 fertile earth vol.4 energy evolution). however, even tho these have taken decades to do, they're still not the full picture. it would be best to know german, and then read what he wrote originally (apparently a lot of his writings have been published in Implosion Magazine (currently at around way more than 150 issues).

if you know an university which studies cavitation, water-hammer-effect, effects of resonance in cavities, and fluid dynamics, please get them to order the Pöpel report from the university of stuttgart (made in 1952). its in the german language, but translations of it are available in energy evolution (callum coats). if people were to replicate those pöpel report experiments, we'd finally have some answers. they reported negative friction, etc.
i mean, schauberger got as far as getting a university professor to test his copper pipes, surely a university would like to study the results/report of another university, and replicate them, especially if there is a chance that there are details in the report that have not been addressed by modern fluid dynamics.

http://www.disclose.tv/action/viewphoto/12...lying_Triangle/

for real?

Ancient Flying Machines

http://www.world-mysteries.com/sar_7.htm

Ian Sanderson took a reproduction of this object to an aeronautical engineer, not telling him what it was, and asked him to analyze it. The engineer said that in his opinion it was a type of aircraft that we have not yet designed or achieved. The craft in his opinion was designed to leave the earth’s atmosphere and reenter it. The front of the plane was designed to fold down to create a heat shield in front of the craft to prevent it from burning up on reentry. You can see that in this sketch:





http://www.philipcoppens.com/bbl_plane.html