There certainly is pent-up hostility here. It is plain to everyone reading this whose part it is on. There is also a penchant for calling names. Is there any place for this? Could we find a way to say what we want to say without being derogatory?

Funny how Paranoid completely cleared up the uninformed assumption. Even funnier how Zandore stepped around it and continued along the same line without considering what was pointed out.

Because whenever you have two or more people, each person is going to think that his free will trumps the other person's free will. This is because of something called the ego. Very few people imagine anything outside of themselves and their desire for immediate gratification of their wants. The Libertarian political party is based entirely on this argument. The human mind immediately rejects the notion that there is anything greater than itself. I am the head of my house. However, by the fact that I live in a neighborhood, in a town, in a city, in a state, in a country, I am bound by the common good. It is why you can't just up and murder someone when they piss you off. Certain people in certain situations will act with absolutely no good judgement or impulse control. What seems good to me may do you harm. I am bound by laws that tell me against my personal free will what I may and may not do in regards to things that affect everyone in my community, state, or country. Some people will tell you it's ok for a 25 year old man to have sex with a 16 year old girl for instance. However, more often than not it does damage that the 16 year old does not have the wisdom, good judgement, or experience to be able to anticipate. So laws are enacted against her free will to (supposedly) keep her from having sex with older men. Laws for the most part are intended to keep people from imposing their (free) will over other people's (free) will. Just because I have free will does not mean that 300 million people can tool around the United States without there being a need for laws to prevent chaotic situations and abuse of the more vulnerable members of society. When a grown man rapes and kills a little girl, if he didn't break a law there it would be very complicated to go about punishing him. Also true in countless instances, here are a few examples: When a nurse in a retirement home abuses a physically handicapped patient, when an older child in a public school bullies a smaller child, when a driver is at fault in a car accident that does any kind of damage, or when higher-ups in a large company operate illegally and the company folds with employees losing their stock and retirement and the ceo's making billions, or when a powerful employer harasses and intimidates an employee into doing things the employee is uncomfortable with, and employee is forced (against their will of course) just to keep their job and feed their kids. Or how about when a father takes off and leaves his kids and never takes care of his responsibility to feed and clothe them. Do you really think that is ok just because the father chose to do that with his free will? Of course not that is why we have disenfranchised young people who don't even know what a family is any more, and kids being raised by gangs, drugs, and t.v., then going on to lead even more dysfunctional families themselves because they were never taught better. This last is also why we have welfare, a huge drain on the free will of people who work who would probably choose with their free will not to feed the kids who were abandoned by their fathers, but to have those fathers be forced against their free will to feed their own kids. You see it gets very tricky and at a certain point, society says, Hold on, this is getting out of control. A minority of people will grumble about some laws, but for the most part, it is unavoidable.

About the Luke quote: You have to be able to put it in contemporary terms. For example, I used to manage a restaurant, and the employee who knowingly screwed up got "punished worse," to put it in plain terms, than the one who made a mistake because they didn't know. I would correct the one who didn't know what they were doing gently, to put them on the right path, and give them the knowledge needed to do it right. But the ones who did wrong because they were lazy or were just willful and rebellious, did indeed get "severely punished." This is just the way things work, friends. And we all know it. Jesus Christ did not create this system.

If you chop up the above into paragraphs it will make it a lot easier to read. Most people won't read a big block of text like that. Just FYI.

I will do one better: A Bible Quiz



A link for you to start with: CLICK HERE

In parts:

Slavery is the social status of specific persons, known as slaves, who have been stripped of individual rights, and are the property of another person or household. Slaves are people who are held against their will since either their capture, their purchase, or their birth, and are deprived of their individual freedom for the purpose of exploitation of their labour and in some cases their sexual abuse. Historically, slavery has generally occurred as a means of securing the labour of the slave, without the right of the slave to refuse, leave or receive anything in return for his labour. As such slavery is one form of unfree labour. Chattel slavery is the absolute legal ownership of a person or persons, including the legal right to buy and sell them. While slavery has been a prominent feature of many civilizations throughout human history, it has over the past few centuries gained a repugnant aura.




Slavery predates writing and evidence for it can be found in almost all cultures and continents. Its many origins remain unknown. An example of slavery is thought to have existed in the walled town of Jericho which was established around 10,000 BCE. The settlers of Jericho were plagued by roaming hunting and gathering bands, which they killed or captured. It is thought that the ones that were captured were then put to work as slaves who themselves may have later eventually become citizens and slave owners. Slavery can be traced to the earliest records, such as the Code of Hammurabi in Mesopotamia (~1800 BCE.), which refers to slavery as an already established institution. The forced labor of women in some ancient and modern cultures may also be identified as slavery. Slavery, in this case, includes sexual services.





Many ancient societies had many more slaves than nominally "free" citizens who controlled them. Slavery nearly everywhere permitted cruelty and abuse although slaves were usually treated semi-humanely as valuable "property". Slavery nearly always predates written history on every continent. After writing was introduced, domestic slavery and sometimes concubine slavery was noted among the nomadic Arabs, and among Native American hunter gatherers, African, New Guinean, and New Zealand tribes, and among the Germanic and Viking raiders and many other pre-literate people.

Most slavery is associated with war in that losers are taken prisoner by the victims to prevent a future conflict, or as a form of penal punishment with the criminals being made slaves to partially compensate the victims. Debt slavery existed in very early times, and some African people had the custom of putting up wives and children as hostages for an obligation; if the obligation was not paid, the hostages became slaves. In Homer's Greece, it was not a crime, although unusual, for a master to beat or kill a slave, and the testimony of slaves was not allowed in Greek courts unless it was obtained through torture.



In the Roman Republic and the Early Roman Empire about 15% to 20% of the population were slaves, and - until the 2nd century when laws protecting slaves were instituted - a master could legally kill a slave. However this was very rare because slaves were very expensive. Vedius Pollio, a citizen of Rome, reportedly fed the bodies of his slaves to his pet fish. Flavius Gratianus, a fourth-century Roman emperor, ruled that any slave who accused his master of a crime should be immediately burned alive. Roman slaves who participated in revolts were often crucified.



Slavery is also found in the sections of the Bible related to Egypt. Joseph is sold into slavery in Egypt, and after his time, at the beginning of Exodus, all the Hebrews of Egypt have been reduced to slave laborers. Much like the story of Joseph, there are examples of slaves rising to higher social status, even of marrying into native Egyptian families. However, there are many more exmples of slaves being worked until death in Sinai copper mines. As in many later societies, there was a wide variety of slaves: from highly valued house servants and tutors, to skilled artisans, to field laborers (Canaanite "asiatics" are often depicted at the wine press).


BTW: That is just from one source Tex.......want more?

It was the social structure back then.

While we generally think of slaves as unpaid workers, they were fed clothed and housed- their basic needs were provided for.

Today we have eliminated slavery, or have we? Our lowest paid workers often struggle to provide the basic necessities for themselves. Have we really advanced as much as we think we have?

I'm not saying we should go back to slavery. I just don't think much has really changed other than arbitrary class distinctions. At least not for most of the lower class. Yes there are the scattered "rags to riches" cases that were probably not possible back then. And today while nobody might technically 'own' you, in a more abstract way you are 'owned' by your creditors, the landlord, the IRS, etc.

But anyway why the shock that a milennia-old book conforms to the societal norms of its age? Why the moral outrage? It's not like we're really so much more just today on balance. I'm sure future generations will condemn us as harshly as some of us condemn the past.

Oh my new member , allow me to say something , im not bashing you , im amused though that anyone would take your word for it. where does it say such things in the bible,? By not stateing a referrence from one of the little books ( the bible) How can you even be sure of this for yourself ? expecially when you flamed {" bible thumping christians} without proof you know what your talking about. A very brave thread to start here , something is ailing me to think perhaps it was done for the purpose of just that , stirring something up.

If you could refference the statements you say" god approves "of as a source , maybe this might be looked at with a more serious type of nature,.. Ask yourself, is it a genuine question or comment you posted ? or is it just a addon to all the other hearsay, lets say, go along with that say,.. source is what talks the truth , not just gibberish?, im eagerly in wonder if you might come back with some interesting scriptural facts for the readers.
Also, you might want to have the topic moved to spirituality, vs. skeptism. A more appropriate forum for this if you want feedback , thats where youll get it.

Any how welcome to the UM . addmissions free
you pay to get out,lol
have a goodie
Abecrombie

Again, you are using and defining a word the way it is commonly used in these times. This word for the most part, by and large, did not have such brutal connotations as it does now. And I am surprised that I have to point out, just because people did things in biblical times doesn't mean that God put his stamp of approval on it. Many individuals misuse the system and abuse people just because no one's watching and they can get away with it. If someone were to include in a time-capsule a newspaper story about child abuse, should future people conclude that the author of that story was saying it was ok to abuse children? The leaps in logic here are astounding. This is clearly a bible bashing thread. You all enjoy it.

ATTENTION : My apologies go to carini who started this thread. Im sorry , but I enetered the thread thinking I was fourth posting. In reality, I was 107th,.. big difference, As I was browseing after the fact, I noticed , there is biblical refferences ,. I stated earlier your had none so therefore Sorry for the misunderstanding...


back to your stations members.lol
Abecrombie

All right: let's play a game. You be a slave (and slavery still does go on in the world) for a year and THEN we'll debate the semantics of the word, whether or not it was just poor people rooming with benevolent rich ones.

And the Bible saw fit to go out of its way to explicitly condemn some actions, like murder (except when it suited god), theft (except when it suited god), idolatry (except when it suited god), midgets and eunuchs entering the temple, women wearing hats in church, but never once says "and /maybe/ you might not want to have a slave." As shown multiple times above, god tacitly approved of it by giving people suggestions on how to do it. For example, the police don't criminalize cocaine but then hand out books on how to grow cocoa trees. It seems to me that discussing the Bible and its views on slavery are an exercise in understanding context: if you hold to a literal interpretation of the Bible, you're right: it never explicitly give permission to hold slaves. But if you look at what's happening in the Bible, and god's responses to them, you have a serious problem saying god wasn't approving of slavery. And if you think about it further, it's perplexing to see why Jesus, a self-proclaimed saviour who loved everybody, didn't love them enough to try to get them to free themselves.


--Jaylemurph

Cocaine dosnt come from cocoa trees. Chocolate does.

What? You mean all this time Ihave been snorting chocolate???

D'oh! I retract my "o". Cocaine comes from the Coca plant. As in Coca-cola.


--Jaylemurph

Holy crap, I think I peed myself a little bit when I read this!!!!!!!!!

We're clearly going to have to agree to disagree here, friend. My opinion of it is this: There are many lifestyle choices, though not rubber stamped nor certainly created by God or Jesus, that were in any event devised and lived out by people in biblical times (as well as now). These lifestyle choices are not blessed. What you interpret as slavery as we know it, I think was an abuse of a system that was intended to be an employee-employer relationship in a more barbaric culture. The majority of people who had intentions in their heart of being upright citizens and trying to do right by people handled it in a way that was not cruel, but benificial to everyone involved. These were times when there was no birth control and people had more kids than they could feed most of the time, and most people were peasants anyway. Put yourself in this situation. It was probably the kindest thin to do sometimes to put your child in a place where they could work for room and board, than to keep them at home and watch them starve. Was the system abused? Of course it was because some people are just abusive and cruel. God keeps a distance and gives you enough rope. When people were wrong to each other, he didn't immediately ruffle indignantly and strike them with lightning. People are allowed to carry on long-term in sinful activities because we have free will. This means there is going to injustice in the world, because PEOPLE with their sinful hearts will perpetrate injustice as long as they can get away with it, and especially if they will profit from it, and sometimes just for no reason at all. King David had an affair with a married woman named Bathsheba. He was not immediately removed from his throne. He finished his reign, but the act and others in his life were a symptom of the depravity in his heart. He experienced consequences in his life. Maybe not that same day, but he did. IMO, this is being turned into a simple black and white issue when IMO it needs to be considered from many aspects and in the context of each situation.

And please trust me when I say, I am a slave to many institutions and people that I would rather not be: My ex who does not help me with my kids and gets away with it; my boss who never fails to be egocentric at all times and barks at me just because I'm standing there; the IRS and nine hundred ninety-nine other government departments that don't do their jobs efficiently or correctly; the parents who didn't teach me anything or prepare me for life because they were too busy drinking, cheating on each other, and sniffing drugs to care what happened to me, and on and on. There's more but you get the idea. Things have happened to me that were beyond my control and yet I am paying the price for it. Crying about the place you were born into doesn't help. My view is that life is all a test, the devil is indeed at work with his legions to pit us against each other and continue they cycle of hate.

But the measure of how close we are to God is the grace with which we handle life's injustices. This was true in biblical times as well as now. There always were and always will be different situations for different people. There are and were rich fat spoiled people with evil hearts, and poor people with evil hearts. Good poor people and bad. The bible is stories of people in different situations, stories to learn from. Stories that you are supposed to learn from always have a villain and a hero, right? We're learning what is right from reading these stories because we are shown what is good and bad in each situation. Most of the stories about people in the Bible are followed to some kind of conclusion. Would we learn anything i f God stepped in and said, "That's wrong, stop it now?" No. We are shown what the inevitable consequences are when we treat people badly.

... for all this, I notice you're not quite ready to put your money where your mouth (well, typing fingers) is and /be/ one of those "employees". In fact, you rather elegantly dodged the point completely. I still say: do you understand better English, Greek, Aramaic and Latin than the translators of the Bible? To misquote, a slave is a slave is a slave. In other texts of the period, no one has gone out of thier way to call a slave anything other than a slave, but then again no one in the modern age uses the Iliad, or the Odyssesy or the Aenid as tools for moral education.
And I fail to see how in any way, denying what we call basic human rights -- even those of simply being alive or even not being raped -- is merely a "convenient economic system". Furthermore, there has never been a time when there was no human birth control -- the Egyptian used crocodile dung for the purpose, and there have always been herbal tinctures used to terminate unwanted pregnancies. I don't have children so I won't theorize what I would or wouldn't do with them, but I have never heard of a parent freely giving over their children into slavery. This may be lack of experience on my part; I've only ever heard stories of the opposite. Moses, I believe, was a prime example of parents trying to get their children out of slavery*.
As for the rest of this paragraph... god often enough meted out instant justice when people broke his copious commands, but, it seems, only when he was paying attention. I still have heard no real response to why an all-loving saviour, who had no problem with ruffling religious or civil authorities, would deny freedom to everyone, not just the ones who beleived in him. Jesus was a man of his times. Interestingly, it took another 1800 years of social change (dare I say evolution?) for there to be a large-scale reaction to human bondage. Jesus' reaction to slavery or lack thereof should be a sticking point for anyone giving serious consideration to his claims as saviour. If you believe he is one purely on faith, that's fine, but don't try to whitewash him, or (much more appropriately) a set of texts purporting to describe him and his actions for others trying to consider his claims dispassionately.





I am very sorry to hear of your tribulations, believe me. I think it's one of the great things that Chrisitianity (or any other religion) does in helping people deal with the merde that happens for no good reason in life, and exactly as you say, break the cycle of hate.
And -- clearly as an aside to this thread -- Because of my profession, though, I do feel like I should say that since at least the 5th Century BCE there have been stories about a hero is neither completely good nor bad, as we all are. Aristotle, in his Poetics, agrees with you that stories are there for us to learn, and the best ones are where bad things happen to a person of mixed elements. This is the basis of tragedy. The truth is that life is much more complex than merely good and evil and stories (dramas, novels, whatever) can help us learn how to deal.


--Jaylemurph

D'oh.

My * being: "If slavery isn't so bad, why did god take the entire Hebrew nation en masse away from it?"

--Jaylemurph

Hehe np. I like starting threads that make people think about what they really believe in. Many christians take the bible as literal truth. That it is infallible, that god wrote it and because of this it is perfect. It is far from this. Its a book written by men to show people a moral way to live life. It was written by men who had almost no understanding of the natural universe though. Sure they understood how to farm, kill and gut their food, but their overall beliefs were much much different then those of todays societies. Slavery worked 2000 years, even 200 years, ago because thats the way the world worked back then. It was perfectly ok for people to own slaves then. Times have changed and people have new outlooks on how lives should be treated. Yet for all that has changed many people go back to the bible saying it has all the answers. Well it sure didnt have the answer to slavery if it was perfectly ok for people to have slaves, and even beat their slaves. I

If the world has changed so much since the bible was written why do people continue to go back and quote things, e.g genesis as the basis for creation, when there is not one ounce of evidence that the world was created in 7 days other then thats what the bible says and so its true.

Just as we have all but given up slavery, so should we ignore those things in the bible that have no relevance to todays world.

And my thanks to you for starting this thread. It's proved the start of a lot of thinking for me.

--Jaylemurph

Please note the sources cited in my POST and that is just one of many links I have found over the years about this subject.



Is not the bible supposed (sic) to be the word and body of the Abrahamic God?

John 1:1 (KJV)
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Then there is all of the other atrocities (ordered by god) in the bible that include (but definitely not limited to) genocide, fraticide, cannibalism, killing unarmed women and children.......the list is long so I will name just these for now unless you want more.



Yes you are very right........and when you are the only one capable of looking you can get away with a lot

"In the name of God"


The Bible says it is OK to take child sex slaves!

Check verse 18 : Young's Literal Translation



I am truly sorry if the truth that is in the bible hurts.....but it is not Bible bashing.

Still going on about Numbers 31, eh Zannie. Answering that particular question will take us too far off topic, but suffice it to say that there are rules in Israelite culture that prevent the taking of slaves for the express purpose of sex. I think you're reading into Numbers 31 more than what is there (of course, I could be wrong). Regardless, that's not the point of my post today.

That said, something that's occured to me that may not have been said already, is that the Bible (which if you agree with the OP condones slavery) also says taht Christians are slaves. We are slaves to Christ, and slaves to righteousness. If we take this as being just as true today as it was 2000 years ago, why is being slaves to Christ not considered wrong amongst the Christian community? Does being a slave to Christ somehow make us inferior to every non-Christian who happens to not be a slave to Christ?"

I think we are all slaves to something, whether we like to admit it or not

Regards, PA

... ahh, but if we all had the humility to act like it.


-- Jaylemurph

this does not belong in Ancient Mysteries and Alternative History. I should know. *cracks whip* MOVE THIS THREAD PRONTO!

I agree. I posted one on Seraphim and Jewish Orthodoxy and it got sent to the religious section which I disagree with but OH Well it aint my world. The Seraphim are mythological and the Jews view parts of the OT as history.

I've been looking in on this board for a while, most people seem to only be here to hawn anyones belief if it happens to be outside of what society preaches, thats fine.
I have held myself back many times from replying to any post because of just that, people with higher intellect always question things, thats what got us where we are today when it comes to anything.
YOU use as a daily tool things the questioneers asked: be it a microwave, TV or a PS, computer games, fast food, you name it, hair colour etc, its THOSE who question science that make things happen - not those who sit spitting fumes at the nosey intellects, shame on you goofs out there, if we let you guys who hawn new thinking take over we would still be sitting with a stone wondering how to roast our chicken...

This time, I am replying to a post because I pity the ignorant and wish to give them something more to hawn. The bible. It is a well known fact, all over the world, that many parts of the bible are hidden away in the Vatican. Yet still followers believe in the bible, koran, old testemant and new etc to the degree its quite ridiculous. You KNOW there are hidden parts that the Vatican sit on which would have such an impact on us that everything we ever wanted to believe in would be ripped away right under our nostrils.
There is no way any super-power of this world today (aka USA, Britain, Europe etc) could afford an exodus of believers, imagine the disaster. SO they sit on the info, some knowingly, most dont give a sh** aslong as they get a bit of the cookie and money.

The bible prolly did say "ya slaves are A-OK!"
The truth is, they prolly were back then when poverty ruled, it gave poor ppl a chance to survive, the bible was written when slaves NEEDED bread to feed their families coz you cant stop a poor man from fertilizing a woman!!
Things change, society has changed, there is no way anyone can live according to a book written, re-written, re-written again and "rip rip rip" out pages, glue em all together and make "The Holy Bible" as known today (let alone a 2000 year old book, if you think you can believe in that to the degree you would kill people because they happen to believe in Harry Potter more, then please move to a desert already and give up all you luxuries WE with half a brain and more have provided you with) to this day, within our society has there been PROOF of God? (dreams not accepted as proof, nor drug experiences, or pure insanity) how can people be so sad as to believe so blindly that they actually kill eachother over it??!!

Islam is a perfect example of what Im talking about, its not so much the book that keep them in their beliefs, its more tradition. They have not evolved as fast as the western civilization and hold a purity which we cannot fathom. One should not hawn them for that, thats up to them, example: you cant go into the bushman terratory and demand they live accordingly and accept OUR god or else die, but ya know, we would if they suddenly became scientists and inventors.

Anyhow, bottom line, yes Slavery was OK back then, they didnt have journalists, doctors (as we know and need them) teachers, police, lawyers, machinists etc. Today you dont need to be a slave to feed your family, back then you did. There is, I'm sure, nowhere in the bible stating that you are forbidden to grow with society and gain a better standard of living/understanding within the rules of what is human.

Christianity has changed so drastically since it was given to us, I am sure if you have a brain you understand: the bible is a starters-pack and the add-on was cancelled.

Concerning moving this thread, believe it or not, we have been looking at this thread and considering whether to move it to the Spirituality boards. Often there are topics that might fit on more than one board, and it's not always a simple matter of just moving a thread. That said, the thread is getting to such a stage as to be almost completely devoid of discussion on alternate histories. Though leibi's post just above mine may take discussion back to that topic. If not, this thread will most likely be moved.

What won't help though, are repeated posts saying that the thread should be moved. that won't lead the discussion anywhere. If you think it should be moved, then contact a moderator or just use the report button to voice your concerns.

Regards, PA

... "Hawn"?


-- Jaylemurph

And you can not justify the mass murder of unarmed men....women....and children (males and virgin females).

31:14 - [In Context]
and Moses is wroth against the inspectors of the force, chiefs of the thousands, and chiefs of the hundreds, who are coming in from the host of the battle.


Wroth means it was not thought of as ok and that Moses thought they were acting depraved for doing what is mentioned in verse 18.

31:16 - [In Context]
lo, they -- they have been to the sons of Israel, through the word of Balaam, to cause a trespass against Jehovah in the matter of Peor, and the plague is in the company of Jehovah.


We have our own major difficulties in the present with disease control. To people in that time it is hard to imagine how difficult and horrible the situation was to attempt to deal with it at all.

Bella.....Moses was relaying his God's orders to the people!

So with this reasoning Bella it was also OK to kill the virgin boys also...that "who have not known the lying of a female" as in verse 18?

Numbers 31:18 (YLT)
and all the infants among the women, who have not known the lying of a male, ye have kept alive for yourselves.

Why not keep the little boys alive as well?

How about these for starters?

EX 21:2:6
“If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom….

Or this?

EX 21:7:11 “When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again.”

Or this?

Ex 21:20:21

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property.

Or this?

Lev: 25:44:46 “However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners,…”

Do they as far as you are concerned mean the purchase of other humans as a form of capitalism? Would you endorse the below treatment for yourself or any of your loved ones and swear that that the manner of such treatment allows you to be free to think, act and come and go as you please? If you will, then please advise under which of these I may procure you: as a

Hebrew slave?
A daughter of same who deems you a slave?
Someone whom I can slap as I please while labeling you a slave?
An immigrant or refugee whom I may purchase hopefully for a tax write-off?

Perhaps you think the translation into the English word "slave" was an error? If so, what else was mistranslated?

Does the word "freeman" when it comes to both Testaments mean anything to you? If so what?


Please advise.

so the bible says you can have slaves, so what? The bible in my opinion is just a worthless piece of paper wrote by some one that was REALLY stoned

Why is it a big deal?

Because millions of people in America consider it to be a divine treatise on how to live and insist on forcing it on everyone else.
Because it was used to justify the capture, transportation and enslavement of millions of Africans, and needs to be recognized as such.


--Jaylemurph

Have I lost Isis -999 regarding my response below?

I don't really want to reply to this but whatthehey!
The State of Maryland was a Catholic colony armed with a papal bull saying Indian slaves were OK. So they started gathering up members of my tribe(Nanticoke) and the Conoy (Kanawah) and selling them to Spanish and Italian slavers forcing us to migrate to Delaware and South Jersey to hide among the Quakers and Lenape and up to the Iroquois.

NOTHING! Justifies slavery cept maybe being cheap and lazy. Do it yourself or pay someone to help you........

Lapiche yengis

Both the old and new testament was first changed by the roman empire. Since slavery was widly used they most likely added or embellished. I don't think any credible original entrances in the bible says slavery is right and that woman should be subservient to men. What it does say is that both the man and the woman have there roles nether are bad roles. some my think that the womans role is wrong but it really isn't all it says is that a woman should treat her man with respect only 2nd to god and they should do some motherly things like give birth. Thats only because it is a blessing to have children not because all woman should be bare foot and pregnant.

Men have there roles they should love and protect there wives and children unconditionally and should work to keep the family. Thats about it or at least that is what the original scrips said.

You've, uh, not read much of the rest of this thread, have you?

As for gender roles and the Bible? I'm not touching that.

--Jaylemurph

I'm not sure if anyone pointed this out yet... but for 1, the poster of this topic didn't provide a reference...

and second if they bothered to actually read the bible... they would have realized that the bible condoned indentured servants... the difference being that the person had the option to become someone's slave to pay off a debt...

and the maximum slavery time was 7 years... after that, the person was free of the debt and could choose to stay a slave or be free....

finally... there were strict rules on slavery... the owner had to take care of the person and the person's family if they were slaves... and some slaves were even paid...

the non-jewish version of slavery was vastly different than the one that is presented in the bible...

by the way... we do still have modern day slavery... it's called prison...

This thread is now on its tenth page. You may want to review some of the previous pages that deal with some of the specific points you bring up; they do a good job of pointing out the Bible has little problem with chattel slavery.

--Jaylemurph

lmao... someone here is ignorant to the background of the writing and constructing of the bible...

Personally the bible is the most RE-WRITTEN piece of "information/book/whatever you wana call it" i ever know =))

If you read through those Bible verses they aren't talking about slaves in the sense that we know them as I think. I think it's more of a pay your debt type of thing because it talks about after paying the debt to be freed. Hardly the slavery we know of these days. The verses also talk about treating the person who is being a slave to you with respect and not to beat them etc. and be nice to them. This isn't making an excuse for slavery please keep in mind but it's just explaining how I view these verses.

Very true. Don't forget also that Jesus included women in his group as well. You can read in the gospels about a woman named Phoebe and of course Mary Magdelene who were very involved in his ministery inner circle and were disciples as well. So if Jesus was of that mind set I doubt he would have let these women involved in his group and his inner circle.

So doe's the koran. Different times different morals, well for some.

It is nothing more than fiction.

The bible was written by men because of that whether or not it speaks of slavery as being ok means nothing to me. There is a Idea in the bible and thats peace love and kindness thats all nothing more nothing less. One true god how to serve god how to believe in got go to church how to pray its all just blabber from some guy back in the day. It is the IDEA of how to treat the people around you with love and kindness is what matters.