Woooooo.............Easy there cowboy !!!

Good point !! At least one of us is paying attention !!

Wasn't that a movie with Whoopi Goldberg ??

Historical facts from where...the Bible perhaps?


Just as it was more violent at that time in history...so was the treatment of slaves.

A bible passage I did not quote. And if you can find a passage that I quoted to support this, please - show me. My historical facts came from...... history, lol.

Jesus Christ came to continue His species by giving the Holy Spirit. All throughout the Old Testament and on into the New, nobody had the Holy Spirit. Jesus told His disciples after He was crucifed by instinct, 'It behooves you that I go because if I do not, I cannot send the Holy Ghost.'
The bible says it is OK to have slaves and it was said by God in the Old Testament because EVERYBODY is a slave to . . . instinct. That is why there are places that forbid sex with animals, sex man with man, sex period, in my view. Sexual desire is the enmity that has been put between the seed of the serpent (instnct) and the seed of woman (a far as I know, it is Jesus, because Jesus was born of woman without the desire).

Just because the bible says it's okay doesn't mean people are stupid enough to say so too.

Much of what you see especially in the OT is slavery to a degree. The Israelites were slaves to Egypt for many years. Slaves were taken in plunder after battles. The situation of a "bondslave" was a bit different in Hebrew culture. They were paid and performed many household functions. After seven years they were allowed to leave with pay and often times land and livestock. Many times the bondslave had it so good he refused to leave and then actually became an adopted part of the family he or she served. Hebrew Theology looks at slavery as a condition of fallen man. The records that deal with it are God's rules regarding it. The human race became slaves to many things after the lost spiritual state of the Adamic covenant. Perhaps Bob Dylan's song was right. "You've got to serve somebody"

I totally agree with you.

I'm following your use of the word condone 'cos that's how I read it when I read your post, however condemn would have been a much better word. And correct, there is no such word as "awestaggering". But instead of using two small, insignificant words, I thought I'd form a collation of the two, to literate my feelings on the issue, and your "band wagon" faith.

This thread has a most important undertone since slavery is absolutely condoned in the biblical texts.


What I find a more fascinating question to that of slavery or any other ordinance mentioned in the Bible is--the concept of Free will.

Free will is often addressed as being a god given right--the unequivocal right of choice between at least two options, where each human has been gifted by Biblical god to determine one way or the other.

This definition is important because it is not the same as the right to reason which is nowhere mentioned in the bible.

So we banter amongst each other about things like the rule on slavery, and question a supreme god's edict when it comes to free will, yet we are complacent when it comes to the human governance which infringes upon that very same supposedly divine right of free will as granted to man. Strange really.

This then begs the question--if the western world construes itself as having been established and continuing in Judeo-Christian values based on the requirements of the Biblical god, then why do governments with the approval of the populace enact laws which clearly infringe upon and limit free will?

No where in the Bible does it say it ok to won slave's....I think you have mistake this passage.......

Show me where (outside of the Bible) they (slaves) were treated better (in Biblical times) then in more recent times.

^Just reread the quote I gave in one of my first posts in this thread.

Not related to the Bible at all

Show me a Bible passage that backs this sentiment up. What does the Bible say about slavery in Egypt during New Testament times.

I don't recall a Bible study on slavery in Asian Minor or Syria. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I'll concede that this one is partly based on biblical passages.

Find me a Bible-passage that backs up this point. "And Paul while preaching in Athens walked the street. Freeman and slave mingled freely, and you could not tell them apart". I don't recall a passage like that.

And where in the Bible might I find this information. I don't recall any slave policemen or doctors.

So Z - apart from one sentence in this entire quote, what was based on biblical evidence? Could you tell me what slavery was like in these areas if this description is wrong.

Regards, PA

Why are you quoteing yourself?

Because I was asked a question that I'd already responded to. So rather than simply repost the entirety of what I wrote, I chose to break it up into smaller sections with commentary. Right

Looks to me like you're disputing yourself.

very good zandoor...

I almost think the point is moot. If I recall you are also supposed to follow the rules of the land in which you live (where in the Bible I don't know).

And lets face it, the Bible "condoned" or condemned plenty of stuff that humanity may raise an eyebrow at now. Polygamists use the Bible as their excuse for multiple wives, Catholics use it as a reason to ban birth control, Nazi's as a reason to hate Jews, and even some NeoNazi's to hate ANYONE but Caucasians.

I think if you put it in perspective, this thread is a little tedious.

Yes lets do!


From your "Bible Dictionary" you say......could your "Bible Dictionary" be based on the Bible by any chance?

As I said 'sugar coated'!

You are the one that made a statement (about the treatment of slaves) with no collaborating sources outside of the Bible.....but if you want to use the Bible>

You would think that Jesus and the New Testament would have a different view of slavery, but slavery is still approved of in the New Testament, as the following passages show.



Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)



Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)



In the following parable, Jesus clearly approves of beating slaves even if they didn't know they were doing anything wrong.



The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given." (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)

More here: Source


PSST MMPA....here is a clue on something for you



......

EDIT: Thanks Kobie.

#1: God does not say in the Bible that it is perfectly fine to have slaves. Neither was it condoned for men to have extramarital lovers, or for Cain to kill Abel or anyone else to kill anyone else. But such things were observed and commented on. It is said paraphrasing of course, basically if you're going to have servants treat them well if you want to be blessed. Men who mistreated their servants were generally depicted as living outside of God's will, and other areas of their life were usually also pretty messed up. The meaning of the word slave in the word used most often in the Bible would translate more to servant (as in the willing variety). I forget the Hebrew words used, I studied this once,but memory is going in my old age.

#2: Once again words can be similar but not the same and screw the whole interpretation up for everyone. Women are not called on to be SUBORDINATE to men in the "I am woman hear me roar I can carry a briefcase and burn my bra and fry up the bacon 80's feminism Gloria Steinem I will not be subordinate to any man" kind of way. The meaning is to be part of the team, respecting the husband. If a woman does not respect a man, or if a man does not respect a woman, a relationship will go down the drain. Women are called on to be modest in front of other men so as not to kindle a man's protective instinct. Women are called on to respectful, to concern herself with taking care of her family, and to trust his judgement when he is living in the will of God. Do I need to point out that this was all working out ok until an unnatural age called Sexual Freedom perverted the family and the social structure as we know it? Anyone want to talk about what has happened to the family in the last 40 years? One last point on this subject, husbands are called on to have even greater responsibilities in upholding the marriage relationship. He is to love his wife as Christ loves the church, adore her, take care of her until he dies, and put her needs above his own. It is a two-way street idealized in God's description of marriage the way it should be. IF anyone ever put these ideals into practice anymore, there would be no such thing as abortion, no-fault divorce, latchkey kids, and broken homes.

#3: You've obviously bought the image the media has sold you about "bible thumpers." If you looked into Bible study instead of gullibly opening your mouth and letting the Christian hating media tell you what to think about us, you would know that indeed a great deal of the Bible is metaphor and parable. Only parts of it are literal. But hey don't let me keep you from spouting off misconceptions as facts if you're happier that way.

My grammar was not quite up to snuff on my last post. Sorry about that. You should be able to see what I meant anyway.

Also in biblical times, slave was a word that was used often when "employee" was meant. Then as now, there were rich and poor, employer and employee. Many poor people went to the homes of the rich, and instead of punching time clocks and going home, simply lived there. This is not the same kind of slave who picked cotton on Southern plantations in colonial America, there is a vast difference. The word has an entirely different connotation now than it did then, BECAUSE of what happened to blacks here. Folks in biblical times did not have that very negative point of reference, and it meant something different.

There were plenty of other terms for what we would call "employee" available to the translators of the KJV of the Bible... they simply used the word that was most appopriate. A slave is a slave, and it probably meant roughly the same thing to a Roman, Jew, Greek or anyone else hanging around Judea during Jesus' time. Without denying the horror and tragedy of African-American slavery, it's ludicrous to say a slave was merely a poor person rooming with a rich one. Ultimately, such thinking only sugar-coats (as has been pointed out) the reality of slavery and Jesus' lack of opposition to it.


--- Jaylemurph


Coincidentally, the cotton gin, which made growing cotton profitable, was invented in 1793, twelve years after the British surrender at Yorktown. In the Colonial period, most black slaves would have been doing the gruelling work of growing tobacco.

"God" didn't say anything in the bible, it was written by people.

EXACTLY.......Thank you !!!!!!

Ah yes Grasshopper...........but many say it is divinely inspired, and therefore the very word of God! Ask a few Christians! Ask a devout Catholic what power the Pope wields as well. (He translates Gods will).

I always knew there was something funny about that man !!!!

You are right. It directs the masters to treat their slaves kindly in the new testament. But, that is to be taken in a broad sense, as in employer-employee. In the bible, slaves were called servants. And Jesus said 'If any among you wishes to be great, let him be your servant.'

LoL Inspired by God tainted with the thoughts, points of view and opinions, of God only knows how many clowns who assumed God had something for them to chuck in the ol' Bible.

Don't knock it , till you try it !!!

I do my best to avoid those people whenever possible. I wasted enough of my life on that nonsense, thank you very much.

Just relaying what I hear. That's quite often a valid answer for some folks. Can lead to all kinds of fun debate though if you take some time and read the bible. Makes it easy to rankle the most devout Christians. I had a friend that LOVED to make them tell him he was going to Hell by logically debating them til they POPPED! He knew quite a bit of scripture.

Hehe, that sounds like fun! Hard to get Christian stains out of the carpet though, I hope they were outside when they popped Hmm, am I going to hell cuz I said that???

Oh wait, i'm getting sidetracked... back to the thread.... Slavery is bad, don't listen to the bible.

Do you know what a Bible Dicitonary is, Z? Or did you just read the word "Bible" and assume that it dealt only with the Bible. A Bible Dictionary is a reference tool for finding out background information on subjects found in the Bible. It provides historical resources to get a greater insight into the historical surrounds of the topic, not just an exegesis of biblical studies (that's what a Bible Commentary is for).

But to allay your suspicions, here are a few links (non-religious) that discuss similar principles to what was written in the original.

Slavery in Ancient Egypt.
Slavery in Ancient Greece
From the Ancient Sahara and Americas and into the New World
Ancient Slavery vs American Slavery: A distinction with a difference - a long article (7 pages it traverses), but well worth it.

Slavery isn't all peaches and cream. i never suggested it was. I only suggested that the slavery we think of in modern times is not a true reflection of slavery in all cultures. There are cruel/evil masters just as their are compassionate and kind masters. The fate of a slave is ultimately left up to the master. Is the master compassionate, or does the master simply use the slaves to death. The Bible counsels for a compassionate master, condemning the master who does not treat his slaves with gentleness, respect, and love. It is not the fault of the Bible that humans traditionally did not listen to that advice.

Sugar-coating? I guess I just have a sweet tooth

heh, I've missed our little feuds. Welcome back, Z.

The Bible DOES say how to treat YOUR slaves.....

Is not a Bible dictionary (spelling) good for a Biblical perspective on a subject?

But since you want to use a religious based reference: religioustolerance.org



Between training my replacement and leaning my new responsibilities I have little time left to play.

Don't knock what? I agree that throughout history there has been the set rule that male and female were supposed to get together and do their thing and have children and raiise a family. But all animals do that. What is the new covenant? Nobody knows so they keep doing what they have done because only a few people are killed. I mean, its not like they are rounding you up and throwing you into an incenerator, right? It becomes your choice to abide by natural laws, i.e. the law of gravity, the law of motion, etc. How long is it going to be until somebody realizes that the 'God' they think of is not any other being than themselves. For example, if you go outside and dig a hole, God does not dig the hole. But, if everybody went outside and dug a hole, then it would be God digging the hole. The bible tells you that 'God is.' God is not the majority and God is not the minority, God is not that small. God is not a little happy kid running down the street. If everybody got happy and ran down the street, then it would be God. Right now, the God is a job, a wife, 2.4 children on the family, a two-car garage, weekends off, sex pretty often, etc., etc. That is the 'One World.' But. . . But. . . But, it is going to dissolve. Like a memory; like a dream.

The Old Testament in the bible is not about any one person, it is about tribes and nations. The New Testament is God telling you, 'Hey, you are me!' God tells you that your knowledge will be increased. God told you what was the right thing to do and the wrong thing to do. God does not tell one single individual what is right and expect him to tell everybody, God does not tell a committee what is right and expect the population to abide; that is the old covenant, word of mouth.

The new covenant is everybody will see it. Everybody will know it. As the lightning shines from east to west, so will the coming of the son of man be. Everybody will know it. Why? How? A clue is: The elements will dissolve and roll up like a scroll. What is happening with the ozone layer? See, there is no stopping it. We are going to put off this flesh and bone. All of the inventions of man to slow down the process of aging and death and destruction is going against the natural laws. All of the natural vitamins and minerals and nutrients being sold slow down the natural process. Notice when you go into any store or supermarket how most of the people are like blobs. They're stomachs are huge, they are ugly bags of mostly water rolling around. Now, read the bible and figure out why!

First question is, 'Where did the water from the flood come from?' Answer: There was a water canopy above the earth when it was first created. Now, when the earth was first created, there was no life. The earth had to go through a process. This process could not start until the universe had separated. The stars you see at night are suns just like our sun but the elements are different. Imagine an atmosphere of heavy metals. That is what the stars are made of. Our sun is made up of the smallest elements in our universe, hydrogen and helium ions. About 98% of the universe is hydrogen and helium but not ionic. If it were ionic, we would never have been created. This sun is the sun of the 'big bang.' This universe is the generation of that sun.

If y'all are just now using a dictionary to define words, you are about a thousand years too slow.

Wow.
*Checks to see what forum he's in*

Carry on. I won't even attempt a reply. Unsubscribing now.

And this diatribe pertains to the slavery issue how?


-- Jaylemurph

Ummmm......I.....thought......we....were...talking.....about......sex..? You know, mad, hot , passionate, sweaty, caveman-style sex (I think I need a cold shower now)..........Weren't you ?????
Unless.......Was this your idea of foreplay ??

If it were up to me I would have it all set up like the 'Stepford wives'.

And miss out on a nagging, demanding, needy, critical and ultra-sensitive wife ?? Come to think of it , I want a 'Stepford Wife' too !!

Jay I agree with you, but sorry I got to respond to it

If I may borrow a post of a friend of mine (Mako)



Now back on topic.

Right then, to recap:

Slavery is bad.
The Bible condones it, or at very least does absolutely nothing to condmen it.
Christians squirm, trying to reconcile this with an all-loving, all-benevolent god.

Let's continue.


-- Jaylemurph

Ahhh another schizophrenic post. You might want to see a doctor about this?

So what you are trying to say is that if everyone jumped off a cliff god would also be jumping off that cliff? Am I right?

And this pertains to slavery how. Hmm Let me use your logic. God said it was ok for people to have slaves. Fish live in the ocean. The ocean is made of water. Salt water has salt in it. The human body sweats salt. Slaves. What?

Can you give a scripture where the Bible specifically allows the holding and treating of a person as a 'slave' as we know it?

yes, there were bondservants but those people were not cared for as the slaves of the early American history. When people tihnk slaves, they always tihnk of the black slaved in the South on a big plantation getting whipped by a fat white man smoking a cigar. You have to realize that 'slaves' in the biblical times, often times were such on their own free will. They would work a certain number of years for a person, who would give them food and shelter and then, they would be able to go on and get an aprentice job maybe or something else independantly. Indentured servant is more like it, not slave.

The Bible never advocates treating a person like the slaves of the American South were treated.

I refer you to this, my own humble response to the very same point earlier posted. It is the least intelligent and on-point answer of the several cracking ones posted. Perhaps you should go back a few pages and look.



-- Jaylemurph

Thankyou

Hey I think I finally figured it out too. We'll see what happens when I put this through.testing, testing......