Then why dont we still have them? God says in the bible that its perfectly fine for us to have slaves. He also states that women are at all times supposed to be subordinate to men.

Was god wrong? Was the bible wrong in making such statements.

No never according to bible thumping chritsians becasue everything in the bible is 100% correct and should be taken literally.

I believe the Bible as you know it was changed about a thousand years ago. I doubt the original said these things.

It could also be that most of the pen-holders were slave owning men who ruled their wives.

No, both the Old and New Testament are explicitly accepting of slavery, in the original Hebrew and Greek. Of all the changes that could have been made, this was never one of them. Go fig.

I guess it just goes to show that the world was able to move on and adapt beyond Bibilical injunctions. You know, the way we don't throw menstruating women out of town, make priests inspect acne or deny dwarves and eunuchs the right to go into churches. Or make golden idols of mice and hemorrhoids.


-- Jaylemurph

We are slaves... to capitalism, to our spouses, the lives we establish for ourselves. We run around like rats in a maze trying to find our way, while we're examined under a mircoscope by our betters in our ecomincal, social and politcal circles, some times never exiting the maze. The world is a slave market, and every country has its slave traders.

It never ceases to amaze me that there are people so ignorant out there that they can make these kinds of statements without any sense of how stupid they sound. Jesus came at a time when slavery was commonplace in the Roman Empire. You do know what the Roman Empire was, right? Jesus didn't condone slavery, but he did expect Christians to meet certain expectation regardless of their lot in life, which is why he counseled that people who happened to be slaves should still perform their duties well because in the end they will reap the ultimate reward of eternal life. Christians were persecuted in the early days because the teachings of Christ did much to liberate the downtrodden of the Roman Empire.

As for women. Should you ever decide to read the New Testament, you'll notice that Jesus' teachings are actually intended to also improve the lot of women. Again, one must understand the context in which the Gospels were written. It's a long and complex discussion, which I'm sure you won't understand, so I won't bother getting into it. Just keep in mind there are a number of references to women apostles and virtuous women in the New Testament, and it is theorized that the Book of Luke and the Acts of the Apostle, which apparently have the same author, are written by a woman.

KGS

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, right?

Tell me this, why didn't Jesus condone slavery? If he sought a better life for his followers, why tell them to fulfil their masters wishes even though they hated it? There were more slaves in Rome than Roman's and the solders who fought wars were not allowed in the city, so they could not defend it from an inner uprising. The slaves could have easily overcome their slavemasters and taken control over the city. Okay, maybe I'm preaching to the converted. But Spactucus did exactly that. You only live once. The principle of blind faith is awestaggering!

We don't have slavery anymore because we have socially evolved beyond that. Hopefully at least, I know there's still a few places that practice slavery. The world isn't run on the Bible as many believe.

Also, now we have machines and technology to be our slaves.

I believe you mean "condemn slavery". If you want to understand why slaves don't tend to rise up despite superior numbers try reading slave narratives from the U.S. South. Very interesting reading. Christianity is more about salvation and attaining eternal life rather than the burdens of mortal life.

There's no such word as "awestaggering".

KGS

Awe-staggering? Awe staggering?

I'm staggered, in awe, at the way this thread has nosedived...

I also find it rather amusing.

I agree that times have changed and that the bible was (obviously) written when a different social order was in place.

::sarcasm on::
But obviously we should still practice those principles from the bible because they were commanded by god himself. And what god teaches is always correct.
::sarcasm off::

Now why is it so easy for people to accept the end of slavery, equality of the sexes, and so many other "modern" ideas, but with evolution, the big bang, and many other scientifically based ideas they go back to their bible to say "but god says this is the way it happened in the bible and the bible is always right"?

Dunno carini. I don't believe in the bible, so I cannot help you there.....

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)

Of course the original said these things, there was just as much slavery 2000 years ago as there was 1000 years ago.

The bible says its ok to have slves because its a 2000 year old piece of fiction, and has no place in modern society.

Are we supposed to take you serious with this ? Or are you just trying to "stir the pot", your naughty, naughty girl/guy?????

LOL !!!!! Good one !! Because I'm new at this game, could someone please let me know how you attach the little faces at the end of comments ?
Gratefully yours !!!!!!!!

I find it amazing that most hardcore christians are homophobic but yet they let god touch them in so many ways and let him watch over them even when they are in the shower.....lol,lol,lol,lol.

C'mon now, you know what he meant.....That's nit-picking !!

and whos word are they!.....its a prime example of who says what in the bible! there many other points other than this statement,but it shows you haw its sect followers changed the scriptures throughout time,another prime example of mans influence and morels.....thats why its stayed as it is now with no change and dates itself with the progression of time as theres no more fossils to reevaluate it to date.....hah ha .....gods words,yeah right! ,but like i said before religions are mostly to strive people for the better of life and good of things,they shouldn't be taken so literally...i

When you click on the REPLY button and the text box comes up, above the box are a bunch of options in the form of buttons and drop-down menus. On the drop-down menus, the one smack-dab in the center, there is a little face (these little faces are actually called "smilies"). By clicking on the little arrow, you bring up a selection of default smilies that you can click on to attach anywhere in your post. Please note that you will not actually see the smiley until you post your response; you will just see an HTML command in its place.

That's the problem with so many modern Christians. There are so many that will take the Bible literally, and say it's the word of God, etc., but when it comes down to it they will tell you take it in context, we don't have slaves and subservient women. It's like they pick and choose what to take literally and what not to take literally. Rather frustrating.

This is 100% true.....but 1/3 of the worlds population to this day still use the Bible as a moral guide....go figure!


But back on topic
A quiz on slavery in the Bible: Slavery Quiz

Here is an extra bonus quiz: What Did Jesus Say?

Thank you kind sir....I'll give it a go..........

Ya ugghhh huh right..... YOU JUST GOT BUR-ERND YOU JUST GOY BUR-URNED LA LA LA LA LAAA LA. You know what work is hard im gonna become a christian or catholic and get me a slave and wife to wash my feet. SO SCERW YOU GUYS BIBLE SAYS ITS OK.

It should also be pointed out that slavery in biblical times was markedly different to slavery in modern times. In modern times, slavery was a form of forced labour, forcing those who are "inferior" into service to the white man. Slaves had no rights, many times were treated as sub-human. Slaves could not stop being slaves, and they could rise to no position of power. The highest slave was still much lower than even the lowest free man.

Slavery in the Old and New Testaments is not like this. Slaves had rights, they had status, they could even rise to positions of prominence and power, even to the point that they could be (socially speaking) more important than many free people. They could be set free (unlike their modern-day counterparts).

Just to quote the introduction to the section under "slavery" in my bible dictionary - Under the influence of Roman law, a slave is usually considered to be a person (male or female) owned by another, without rights, and - like any other form of personal property - to be used and disposed of in whatever way the owner may wish. In the ancient biblical East, however, slaves could and did acquire various rights before the law or by custom, and these inclluded ownership (even of other slaves) and the power to conduct business, while they were yet under their masters' control. (page 1111)

Obviously there is a great divide between what slavery was 2000+ years ago, and what it turned into (subjugation of one race by another race).

That said, we now live in a society that does not hold to ideals of slavery. Though as someone pointed out, we are always slaves to something. Not necessarily an individual, though it may be just that (our bosses at work, while we are at work, are technically our "masters"). But we can be slaves to money, to popularity, to substances (alcoholics, drug addicts), any number of things. Slavery's still alive and well in 2007, it's just taken on a different form.

Regards, PA

Hey, I was wondering. Who exactly changed the bible? I remember reading about it somewhere, but I don't remember who it was? Maybe someone could give me a wikipedia link where it explains all that stuff or something?

Sorry for the double post, but just to add quickly to my last post, another quote from my Bible Dictionary:

THere was a very great diversity at different times and places in the extent and uses of slavery. Modern sentiment is dominated by the horrors of the mass agricultural slavery in Italy and Sicily during the 2 centuries between the Punic wars and Augustus, which were dramatized by a series of heroic slave-revolts. This was a by-product of the rapid Roman conquest of the Mediterranean, the main source of teh glut of slaves being war prisoners. In New Testament times, however, there was very little warfare, and in any case the slave ranches were a peculiarly Roman method of farming. In Egypt, for instance, there was practically no agricultural slavery, the land being worked by a free peasantry under bureaucratic supervision. In Asia Minor and Syria there were great temple estates whose tenant farmers were in a kind of serfdom. In Palestine, to judge by the parables of Jesus, slaves were employed on country estates more in administrative positions, the labour being recruited on a casual basis.

Domestic and public slavery were the most widespread forms. In the former case the slaves were purchased and employed as an index of wealth. Where only one or two were owned, they worked beside their master at the same occupations. At Athens, they were indistinguishable in the streets from free men, and the familiarity of slaves towards their owners was a stock theme of comedy. At Rome, the great houses employed scores of slaves for sheer luxury. Their work was highly specialized and often largely effortless. In the case of public slaves, their status conferred a good deal fo independence and respect. They performed all sorts of duties in teh absence of a civil service, including even police services in some cases. Professions such as medicine or education were commonly filled by slaves. (page 1113).

As is quite clearly evident, this slavery in no ways relates to the same form of slavery that was rife in areas where the white man was considered naturally superior to all others.

I think as a moral compass it's not really all that bad, as long as you apply the lessons learned to todays world. Whether you like it or not, the moral lessons in the bible are ones that you live by every day, since so much of euro/america law is based on some basic concepts found in the bible.

As what appears to be a practicing Christian, you really ought to be aware of each of these charmers.

The temptation to make snide comments, while immense, will be avoided. Furthermore, I could say a) as an atheist I couldn't be arsed to flip through the Levitical law to find this sh**e and it would be more spiritually rewarding for you to delve into the imponderable will of your god and spend time with your holy text. However, here's two...


Golden Hemerroids and Golden Mice (Let's face it, we all want to know more about these): God commanded the Philistines to build these for him as sacrifices: 1 Samuel, Chap. 6*.
No Dwarves or "those with crushed stones" into the temple: Leviticus 21




And who made you Lord Lieutenant of the English language? One of the glories of the English langauge is our ability to make words up. I assume you wouldn't be as belligerent to Shakespeare, Milton or Faulkner when they coin terms? The term makes transparent sense and you clearly understood its use, so why b**** it's not in the OED yet?


-- Jaylemurph


*And yes, an emerod is a hemerroids. You can see the definition here: http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/emerod.html

My, my, you certainly have a lot of pent up hostility.

It's interesting that people who try to knock Christianity always trun to the Old Testament for their ammo. Christians are followers of Christ and his teachings. The teachings of Christ are found in the New Testament. The Old Testament serves as, to put it simplistically for your benefit, as "background material" for the New Testament. If you've ever read the Gospels, you'll notice that Jesus is critical of how Jews have strayed from God, and continually refers to the prophets and past events in the course of doing so. When the Bible was compiled these older texts were included simply for the sake of acting as references for what is discussed in the New Testament. Of course there are also a lot of dimwits who claim to be Christian who also don't seem to under this relationship and draw inspiration from the Old Testement much more than they should.

Incidently, I notice that no one ever seems to criticize Jews about what is written in books of the Old Testament. Are they not actually their holy texts also?

If you have a problem with someone correcting someone else's grammar then that's your problem. Who gave you the right to determine what someone can or cannot say? There's a huge difference between a literary figure coining words and an anonymous punk on a message board trying to be a smart ass.

KGS

Pretty much. I've seen this kind of nonsense time and time again. They only end up making themselves look like fools in the end.

KGS

No matter how you want to sugar coat it (fact or fantasy) the FACT (per Bible) shows that slavery in the Bible was condoned.

Yeah, well, if something such as this befuddles someone, then there's not much one can say.

KGS

Where does it say it was condoned. Humans were created in the image of God, and as such for one person to bring harm to another is evil and a sin. Slavery is something that man brings upon man, which in turn was brought upon man by the fact that humans chose to be mortal and therefore subject to vice and sin. If all people would chose to believe in God and rid the world of sin, then there would no such evils as slavery, war, murder, etc. But since most people care not to believe in God--people such as yourself--humanity continues to be subject to such evils. God doesn't condone the existence of these problems, which is why he sent Jesus to be our saviour. It's all found in the Gospels if you care to read it with an open and intelligent mind.

KGS

yeah...and im one of these people.
but arent people supposed to question the world? thats what's gotten us this far, right?

and anyways, KGS, you're one of those bible beater people, so i dont think you should be commenting on a forum like such. you know the kind. the ones that are trying ot go OUTSIDE the box instead of staying inside of the small and fragile one that is your simple religion.

let people question themselves and the things around them.
thats what makes us realize our faults and better ourselves.

we dont need people like you telling us who we NEED to be and how we SHOULD act according to god.

(and leave the Jews outta this, mr/mrs! i love my jewish friends! :])
*this was intended as a joke. please dont be all stifle-y about it. :]*

What lessons might you be thinking of?




Not so....at least here in America


The 10 commandments are everything the United States are not!

There are many different battles across the United States of America concerning the posting of the 10 Commandments in public buildings/grounds. The posting is illegal as it violates the First Amendment's establishment of religion clause. This does not deter those seeking to have it posted on any available surface. To sneak around the First Amendment many have adopted the tactic of calling it an "historical document" and "the basis for our system of law", often trying to post it as part of a larger display with historical documents. To me, this is like trying to make a marijuana plant legally acceptable by planting daisies and gardenias around it and calling it a botanical display.

But does their main argument hold any water? Is American law based upon the 10 Commandments? Let us examine them.

1. You shall have no other gods before me

This runs directly counter to the first amendment. This commandment demands obedience to a single, specific god. The first amendment gives the right for worshiping any or none.

2. You shall not make yourself a graven image, nor any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

Once again, this runs directly against the freedom of religion in the First Amendment. There is also some dispute as to what counts as a graven image. The catholic church has statues and stained glass windows, while other christian denominations consider these iconography, and therefore in violation of this commandment. Some religious orders even go so far as to be against non-religious images and photographs. If the law prohibited non-religious images that would then be a violation of freedom of speech/expression.

3. You shall not take the name of Jehovah your God in vain

Now this commandment is directly counter to the freedom of speech. For being the 'basis for our laws' about one third of the commandments run directly counter to constitutional rights.

4. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God.

While there is a tradition of seven day week, there is no law mandating that anyone keep the sabbath. People are free to work on any day they wish. Also the tradition here is for a 5 day work week, with two days off on the weekend. Does that mean we are in violation of the commandment? Should we now give up our Saturdays and report to work?

5. Honor your father and your mother

Frankly, some parents might not be all that worthy of honor. There is no law requiring a person to honor their parents. In fact there are laws to protect children from abusive parents, and children can be taken away from unfit parents.

6. You shall not kill

A good commandment, but hardly original. Laws against murder existed in pretty much all cultures long before hearing about the 10 commandments. Therefore claiming such laws are based on the 10 commandments are unfounded.

7. You shall not commit adultery

A very good suggestion, if you define adultery as between a married person and someone who is not their spouse. However, there is no federal law against it. State laws will vary on the subject. If you define adultery as between any couple not married to one another, even if they are both single, then there are even fewer laws against it, and the state laws can probably be challenged. There was not too long ago a case in California: A man and a woman were brought up on charges for living together. The charges were brought up by his ex-girlfriend who found religion, ignoring that they lived together for a while. The district attorney went to the court to have the law stricken from the books.

8. You shall not steal

Like #6, good but hardly original.

9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor

like #6 and #8 good but not original.

10. You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his male slave, or his female slave, or his ox, or his ass, or anything that is your neighbor's

Isn't that what capitalism is all about? There are no laws against thoughts or desires. Any such law would run counter to civil liberties.

Postlude

Out of the 10 commandments, 4 (1, 2, 3, 10) are counter to American laws. 3 (6, 8, 9) are part of our legal system, but are part of just about every legal system in history. 2 (4, 5) are not a part of our laws. And 1 (7) may or may not be a part of state or local laws. Even in a state that has laws concerning #7, that still means less than half of the 10 commandments carry any legal weight, and an equal number are illegal to enforce.

Those that claim the 10 commandments are our basis for law apparently do not know the law very well. The only thing funnier is those that want it posted illegally in schools "to teach children respect for the law".

by Marc Berard
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Also for you to read


4 Ethics Based On Critical Intelligence

The moral views of secular humanism have been subjected to criticism by religious fundamentalist theists. The secular humanist recognizes the central role of morality in human life; indeed, ethics was developed as a branch of human knowledge long before religionists proclaimed their moral systems based upon divine authority. The field of ethics has had a distinguished list of thinkers contributing to its development: from Socrates, Democritus, Aristotle, Epicurus, and Epictetus, to Spinoza, Erasmus, Hume, Voltaire, Kant, Bentham, Mill, G. E. Moore, Bertrand Russell, John Dewey, and others. There is an influential philosophical tradition that maintains that ethics is an autonomous field of inquiry, that ethical judgments can be formulated independently of revealed religion, and that human beings can cultivate practical reason and wisdom and, by its application, achieve lives of virtue and excellence. Moreover, philosophers have emphasized the need to cultivate an appreciation for the requirements of social justice and for an individual's obligations and responsibilities toward others. Thus, secularists deny that morality needs to be deduced from religious belief or that those who do not espouse a religious doctrine are immoral. For secular humanists, ethical conduct is, or should be, judged by critical reason, and their goal is to develop autonomous and responsible individuals, capable of making their own choices in life based upon an understanding of human behavior. Morality that is not God-based need not be antisocial, subjective, or promiscuous, nor need it lead to the breakdown of moral standards. Although we believe in tolerating diverse lifestyles and social manners, we do not think they are immune to criticism. Nor do we believe that any one church should impose its views of moral virtue and sin, sexual conduct, marriage, divorce, birth control, or abortion, or legislate them for the rest of society. As secular humanists we believe in the central importance of the value of human happiness here and now. We are opposed to absolutist morality, yet we maintain that objective standards emerge, and ethical values and principles may be discovered, in the course of ethical deliberation. Secular humanist ethics maintains that it is possible for human beings to lead meaningful and wholesome lives for themselves and in service to their fellow human beings without the need of religious commandments or the benefit of clergy. There have been any number of distinguished secularists and humanists who have demonstrated moral principles in their personal lives and works: Protagoras, Lucretius, Epicurus, Spinoza, Hume, Thomas Paine, Diderot, Mark Twain, George Eliot, John Stuart Mill, Ernest Renan, Charles Darwin, Thomas Edison, Clarence Darrow, Robert Ingersoll, Gilbert Murray, Albert Schweitzer, Albert Einstein, Max Born, Margaret Sanger, and Bertrand Russell, among others.


SOURCE

MBM!

MASS KILLINGS AND CRUELTIES ORDERED, COMMITTED, AND APPROVED BY GOD.

The entire population of the earth at the time of Noah, except for eight survivors, in a flood. "And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth; and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark." Gen 7:23 [Jehovah, the first mass-murderer, starts His bloody career.]

Every inhabitant of Sodom and Gomorrah, and the surrounding plain, by "brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven." Gen 19:24 Lot and his family fled. [What about little innocent children in the city and around on the surrounding plain.]

All the first born of every family in Egypt, including children of those in dungeons and the successor to the throne of Egypt's Pharaoh, by God on the first Passover night. Ex 12:29 [Of those that are in prison and the first born of the cattle??????]

All the hosts of Pharaoh, including the captains of 600 chariots, who drown in the Red Sea whilebpursuing the Israelites. "... and the Lord overthrew the Egyptians in the midst of the sea." Ex 14:27-28
[The Christian God is so childish He has to murder instead of using His brain. He could have made them too sick to walk.]

Victims who perish in the conquest of seven nations in Canaan by the Jews under Gods guidance so that the Jews can occupy their lands as God had promised Abraham in Deut 7:1,2. The Hittites, Girgash**es, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites were all destroyed, every man, woman and child and mercy was shown to none. [Would have made Hitler and Custer feel good.]

Amalek and his people, by the edge of the sword, because God wants to fight with Amalek from generation to generation (maybe just for fun). The Israelites win if Aaron helps Moses to hold up his hands. [At times of crisis, God gets whimsical. People are dying everywhere and God wants to see Moses's palms.] Ex 17:11,16

3,000 Israelites die at the hands of their brothers, the Levites, every man, their brothers and their companions. Ex. 32:27 [These were the orders of God who would brook no disloyalty, a self styled "jealous" God.]

Rulers of Israel, eleven in number after spying for forty days that wouldn't invade the Promised Land are killed by a plague. Num. 14:37 [The first term limitation?]

250 Levite princes of the Jews who challenged the leadership of Moses. When Moses points out the injustice of killing the whole congregation God relents briefly, then swallows up two of the princes, "their wives, sons and little children", then sent a fire to consume the remaining princes. Num. 16:1-40 [The Christian God lies too.]

14,700 people die by plague who protest to Moses about the prior killing of the 250 princes. Aaron makes an atonement to stop the plague. Num 16:41-49 [The Christian God seems bent upon destroying helpless people.]

The Canaanites at Hormah, utterly destroyed, every man woman and child, by God at the request of the Jews. Num 21:3 The Amorites at Hesbon, Israel "took all these cities". Moses sums up the slaughter: "We... utterly destroyed the men and the women and the little ones." Num 21:25 and Deut 2:34

All the sons and subjects of Og, about whom the Lord said to Moses: "Fear him (the king of Bashan) not, for I have delivered him into thy hand." None was left alive. Num 21:34-35

24,000 Israelites who cohabitated with Moabite women and worshiped Baal. "And the Lord said to Moses, take all the heads of the people, and hang them up before the Lord against the sun..." Num 25:4,9 [Definitely a civil rights violation.]

All the males and the kings of the Middianites, because they worshiped idols, and all their wives and male children were sold into slavery. "And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, vex the Midianites, and smite them." Num 25:16-17 and Num 31:7-8

The subjects of two kingdoms on the east side of the Jordan, in order that Reuben and Gad might seize the land for their own as a gift from God. Num 32

The Ammonites, decimated by the Lord so that Lot might possess their land. Deut 2:19-21

The Horims, slain by God in order that Esau might take their land. Deut 2:22

All the citizens of Jericho, except for a whore and her family. "And they utterly destroyed all in the city, man and woman, young and old, and ox... with the edge of the sword." Josh 6 "They" make a grisly game of it , using the superstitious number 7 popular in the Bible. [Joshua competes with Moses, the leader he replaced, for the title of Gods number 1 hit man as he follows Gods orders.]

12,000 men, women and children die in a treacherous ambush conceived and directed by God. Joshua, with the usual mindless hocus-pocus, holds out his spear until all the inhabitants are dead. The city was then burned. Afterwards Joshua builds an altar and offers thanks to God. Josh 8:1-30 [A political monster worships a Murderous Monster of a Deity.]

All the people of Makkedah, and their king hanged, by Joshua. Joshua 10:28

All the people of Libnah. Not a soul remained. Joshua 10:29-30 [Joshua and God were agreed upon the finality of capital punishment.]

All the people of Gezer, with none remaining, are killed. Josh 10:33

All the people of Eglon, none remaining, are killed. Joshua 10:34-35

All the people of Hebron, "All the cities and souls that were in them". Joshua 10:36-37

All the inhabitants of the country of the hills, and the south of the vale, and the springs and their kings, he left none remaining but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the Lord God of Israel commanded. Joshua 10:40 [Joshua simply kills everyone else.]

The inhabitants of Gaza, Askerlon, and Ekron, killed by Judah and Caleb. Judges 1:18-19

10,000 Moabites, killed by the Israelites. Judges 3:29

10,000 Perizzites and Canaanites die at the hand of Judah and Simeon. Judges 1:4 [Isn't it nice how the body counts always come out as nice round numbers?]

120,000 Midianites die by the hands of Gideons three hundred men. Judges 8:10

50,070 people of Bethshemesh, struck dead by God because a few of them looked at/into the Ark carrying the stone tablets. 1st Samuel 6:19 [The murderous Christian God keeps the grave-diggers busy with overtime burying the innocents.]

70,000 victims (more round numbers?) die of a pestilence sent by God because David took a census.11 Sam 24:15

Although Adam and Eve have no sense of right and wrong when they eat of the Tree of Knowledge, God accuses them of sinning and tosses them out of their home. Prejudging the human race he then decrees that all shall suffer for this "sin" by returning to the dust from which Adam was made. The Christian God curses women with painful birth. Gen 3

Cain kills Abel because God is partial to altar sacrifices, preferring animals to grain. Gen 4 [The Christian God plainly doesn't like vegetarians.]

At the time of the Flood, a disaster not uncommon to the tradition of other religions, Noah, an imbiber, and his family are the only persons deemed righteous enough to be saved from drowning. All others, including pregnant women and children, are given no opportunity to survive the rising waters. Gen 7,8

Again attributing sin to innocents God fails to find even 10 persons, or embryos in any stage of gestation, saintly enough to escape the fire and brimstone (Biblical napalm).

God turns Lots wife into a pillar of salt when she looks back in horror at what is happening to her friends and neighbors. Gen 19 [Today many Christians oppose any abortion as a God forbidden murder. Where is the logical precedent here? The Omnipotent Christian God is the Abortionist to abort all abortionists.]

Abraham is certainly willing to do what ever the Lord demands of him, even when God orders him to kill his son. But all turns out Ok when an angel yells really loud to Abraham that it was just a test to see how much he loved God. Isaac is very lucky indeed. Abraham may have been near deaf at his age and the Angel was calling long distance from heaven. [Truly a miracle.] Gen 22

When Sarah gets jealous and insists, proven Abraham consigns Hagar and Ishmael to the deserts to die. Gen 21 [Does this qualify as domestic abuse or violence?]

Pharaoh orders all midwifes to strangle new born Jewish children. Of course they refused. Pharaoh then orders them to throw the babies into the river. Ex 1:18,22 [What's interesting to note here is that some Christian parents at the present time deny their children blood-curdling television and give them blood-curdling Bibles.]

Moses kills an Egyptian deliberately for beating an Israelite. Ex 2:12

He then becomes God's Lawgiver. One of his commandments straight from God is thou shalt not kill (murder). [Two wrongs don't make a right. Was Moses a murderer even before he led the Israelite rebellion??]

God tries to kill Moses, because his son by a Middianite woman is not circumcised. His wife, angered, circumcises the boy with a sharp rock and throws the foreskin at Moses's feet. God then lets Moses off the hook. Ex 4:24-26 [God has priorities, including the horrible genital mutilation of young boys.]

After first purposely hardening Pharaoh's heart so that he will not see the Israelites free, God, through the black magic of Aarons rod, visits ten terrible plagues upon the unsuspecting Egyptians. Ex 7-11 [Even the innocent animals are victims of this truly evil black magic.]

The needless, brutal slaughter of the Passover night is the intended result of another hardening of Pharaohs heart by an egotistical maniacal God who wishes to parade his power. Ex 12:29 [Thus God continues his propensity for making the innocents suffer for the guilty which culminates in the crucifixion of His own innocent Son Jesus.]

More heart hardening by God causes Pharaoh to chase the Israelites into the Red Sea, where the soldiers die by drowning. Ex 14:28 [If God could harden pharaoh's heart he could have caused pharaoh to let them go free. Nothing to it.]

For "offering strange fire before the Lord", two sons of Aaron, priests of the tabernacle, are struck dead. Lev 10:1-2 [Not to worry, replacements are on the way.]

A blasphemer curses the name of God in the wilderness camp, and God orders him stoned to death: "And he children of Israel did as the Lord commanded Moses. Lev 24:23 [The rocky terrain of Palestine broods ill for miscreants and protesters. (Again God could have changed his heart and not killed him.)]

Israelites who complain, with good reason, in the desert, are burned with fire by God in the uttermost parts of the camp. Num 11:1 [Evidently the Christian God loves the smell of roasting, poaching, baking, broiling or burning human flesh?]

Seeing that the Jews are dissatisfied on their journey to the Promised Land because they have no flesh to eat as they had in Egypt, God typically loses his temper again and in a childish way sends a vast excess of quail, enough to cover the ground a days travel in each direction and they stack up to a height of more than 3 feet. As the people started to eat the fruits of their labor "God smote them with a very great plague." Num 11:31-33 [I guess it was better to be a vegetarian after all. Remember Cain?]

The Israelites are forced to wander for 40 years in the desert so that the older people would die. Num 14 [The Christian God despises old people.]

A man caught picking up sticks on the Sabbath is ordered by God to be put to death, and the wandering tribes comply. Num15:35-36 [A novel approach to the homeless problem?]

Challenge of the authority of Moses (remember him murdering people in Egypt?) by anyone always brought out the worse in God, and he buries alive the wives and children of the two princes who oppose Moses. Num 16:32-35

After striving to reach the Promised Land for forty years, Moses and Aaron are denied entry because Moses had struck a rock in anger to obtain water. Moses is allowed to look at it once though just before he dies. Num 20:11-12 and Deut 34 [The Christian God might have shown a little compassion for Moses who was probably at his wits end.]

God turns Miraim into a leper after she criticizes Moses for marring an Ethiopian woman. Such unions were contrary to Jewish custom and also disapproved of by God for everyone except Moses. Num 12:10 [The Christian God is a two-faced, misogynist Dog.]

It looks pretty plain to me that the Jehovah God is really Jehovah War God who likes to childishly parade his power before the masses and destroy those who don't like his totalitarian regime. Jehovah is the God of Evil, many more times worse than any Satan we can conceive of.

It's interesting that people who try to knock Christianity always trun to the Old Testament for their ammo. Christians are followers of Christ and his teachings. The teachings of Christ are found in the New Testament. The Old Testament serves as, to put it simplistically for your benefit, as "background material" for the New Testament. If you've ever read the Gospels, you'll notice that Jesus is critical of how Jews have strayed from God, and continually refers to the prophets and past events in the course of doing so. When the Bible was compiled these older texts were included simply for the sake of acting as references for what is discussed in the New Testament. Of course there are also a lot of dimwits who claim to be Christian who also don't seem to under this relationship and draw inspiration from the Old Testement much more than they should.

Incidently, I notice that no one ever seems to criticize Jews about what is written in books of the Old Testament. Are they not actually their holy texts also?

> Well, I don't know many jews who go around converting people or demanding Gentiles conform to their view of the world. Many Christians, however... And point taken about the OT. Which is not to say Jesus himself didn't get up to some amusing pranks, smiting fig trees (saucy devils they are) and flailing a whip at people in the temple. But to get to the slavery issue, Jesus was apparently completely okay with slavery and that alone (for me) makes him a questionable saviour.
As for obeying the teachings of Christ, I'll just assume by your use of a computer that you haven't given up all your possessions to the poor, dropped everything and started to wander around converting people to Jesus' teachings or starting up a Christian commune.

If you have a problem with someone correcting someone else's grammar then that's your problem. Who gave you the right to determine what someone can or cannot say? There's a huge difference between a literary figure coining words and an anonymous punk on a message board trying to be a smart ass.

>And you possess the ability to read the future and /know/ that person won't be a huge literary figure on par with Shakespeare, Milton or Joyce? Language always changes, and coining new words will always happen, whether by average people or esteemed authors. It just seems grossly elitist to me to arrogate that right to dead people or erudite people only. But lots of Christian sects are quite elitist; perhaps yours is, too. And you'll notice *I* am not the one telling people what kind of language to use. Just the opposite, actually.


-- Jaylemurph

Maybe in 2,000 years some person will post in a history discussion forum "did you know that it was actually legal to wage war in those days"!!!!!!!!

It's interesting to me that Christians tend to shun the OT when it doesn't suit their needs, but then embrace it when it does.

Ephesians 6:5 - 9 Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ;

6 Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart;

7 With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men:

8 Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free.

9 And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.

Colossians 3:22 Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God;

Colossians 4:1 Masters, give unto your servants that which is just and equal; knowing that ye also have a Master in heaven.

Titus 2:9 Exhort servants to be obedient unto their own masters, and to please them well in all things; not answering again;

I Peter 2:18 Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.

The word "servant" used in these passages is the Greek word "doulos" which translates as slave. So, obviously the New Testament condones slavery. And why does it? Because that was what was the norm at the time. We've made progress since then. Too bad the Bible hasn't.

This actually would depend on the peoples involved and the particular time. You seem to be speaking of the period of the Babylonian Exile, where this was true...you may even be alluding to the myth of Joseph, which has no evidential support outside of the OT. With the Egyptians, slaves were naught more than property, for one to rise above bondage and become more would be so rare as to be considered impossible. The Egyptians were known for their working their slaves to death in their various mining projects, but it was not unknown for peoples of the same descent as the slave to live in Egypt as either a resident alien or a naturalized citizen. The Hebrews were rather nasty slave holders, holding the power of life and death over their slaves and not above sacking an enemy city, slaying everyone but the virgins and then distributing them out among the troops as sex slaves (as so graphically described in that “model of godly living” the Old Testament)


Not quite true, it needs to be amended to “into service of another”, since more than a few of the owners of slaves in America were either Native American (as a part Cherokee, I had full-blood ancestors, one a chieftain of the tribe, that owned African slaves) or even manumitted (legally freed) African Americans. Why was this abhorrent practice actually embedded into the fabric of that young republic founded on the principles of individual liberties and freedoms? Well, read this little sermon that was preached in the 1st Presbyterian Church in Augusta, GA on the morning of January 6th 1861 - http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2002/04...-and-slaves.php
I think the Reverend Doctor Wilson laid all the biblical justifications out quite nicely.

For those that think that just because it was a different period of human development that slavery could be justified, it would be the same as saying that because it was a different period of human development, Cain was justified in killing Abel! If your God thinks that slavery is wrong, then it is wrong at all times during the human development and if he advocates it, knowing that it actually is wrong, then it must not be God speaking, but rather the evil one posing as God! If God thinks that Slavery is right and we as humans know that it is not, then why are you worshipping what is evidentially the evil one? I love watching Christians tap dance and waffle trying to explain why their religion seems to be so senseless! - Mako

I just had this weird image of nuns tap dancing.

Now I will have that image in my head everytime I use that term....and I do use that term quite a bit....thanx a lot! LOL

Is not the Bible (in all of it's books) the word and body......God?

BTW: You are to new to know me here.....I once was a Christian for over 20 years.



Hi Rachel

Yes it is interesting and sad that they pick and choose what to follow.



I hope I don't have nightmares thanks to you!

Hey hey, pastor Z. How are ya

I'm not sugarcoating anything. I'm just stating historical facts (how slavery worked in ancient culture).

Count me one of those "dimwits" then. As much as you try to distance yourself from the Old Testament, the fact is that the Old Testament is a part of our holy text. And it is just as useful as the New Testament. I think the problem lies not in the quoting, but the context of the quoting. People will continuously quote how God exacted vengeance/punishment on *insert person/s here* without looking at anything else. There is a continuous cycle repeated throughout the Bible (Old Testament included) - SIN - PUNISHMENT - REPENTENCE - GRACE. *note, occassionally repentence is not required, though Grace is shown still*. Many people will look at the Old Testament and focus on the punishment and cry foul, without looking at the sin by the person to incur this, or the subsequent Grace shown by God in some aspect.

People have this (incorrect) view that the Old Testament God is a God of terrible wrath and vengeance and the God of the New Testament is this loveable teddy bear who wouldn't hurt a fly. The truth is somewhere in between. Read the entire Bible (Old Testament included) and look for the pattern that I showed above.

For my mind (and I hope I don't cause offense), i find the belief that the Old Testament is only background material to be a quite scary one, because it distances modern Christianity from its roots, which you just cannot do. But hey, if it works for you.....

I stand corrected. Though the overall point I was making still stands, I think - slavery in modern times was markedly different than back in ancient times.

*strikes music, puts on the tap shoes, starts to dance, though I'm on a diet, so forget the waffles for now*

I don't believe the Bible ever mentions that slavery is either right or wrong. Never a judgement call on it is made. Though since slavery existed, laws were given concerning it. Though let's assume for the purpose of discussion that this law implies God condoned slavery, believed it was right. Does that mean we MUST keep slaves? Is it against God's law not to have slaves? Are we disobeying God by not having slaves in modern society.

Additionally, i wonder if slavery was conducted in the manner that it should (not with overbearance and malice, but with love and care), then would it be an entirely awful system, wrong in the eyes of humanity? To requote the introduction to the topic of slavery that I posted in my first post on this thread: Under the influence of Roman law, a slave is usually considered to be a person (male or female) owned by another, without rights, and - like any other form of personal property - to be used and disposed of in whatever way the owner may wish. In the ancient biblical East, however, slaves could and did acquire various rights before the law or by custom, and these inclluded ownership (even of other slaves) and the power to conduct business, while they were yet under their masters' control.

Ephesians 6 states taht slaves are to obey their earthly masters with love and respect, in same manner as they would serve Christ. Likewise, masters are required to treat their slaves with that same respect and love. This law reflects the two laws that Jesus gave - Love the Lord with all your heart and soul and mind, and Love your neighbour as yourself. Yes, if the system is abused, it causes problems. Slaves are beaten, killed, mistreated (for example), or perhaps slavery becomes an excuse for racial subjugation (as is the case in the slavery of African Americans). For this reason, slavery is wrong. But in and of itself, if the laws were followed and slaves were not mistreated, indeed given rights and status and food/shelter/property, then it may not be an entirely unfair system.

Of course, one could also make an argument that we are slaves to various master's in the modern world as well. When I go to work, it could be said that when the uniform goes on, I am a slave to the Coles Supermarket chain, slave to my boss, obeying their commands. If I choose to disobey my master (the boss), eventually I will incur their wrath (dismissal, sacking). Likewise if I am the master (the boss), then I am to treat my employees with love and respect (something one or two bosses I know should start to learn to do).

Then there's the matter of our hearts, and what our hearts are slaves to. Are we slaves to greed (money/power/status), or slaves to popularity, slaves to sex, slaves to our desires. However we look at it, where our heart is, what it looks to, we are slaves to that.

*takes off the tap shoes. I think I've done quite enough exercise now - give me those waffles*

I don't see why it is a surprise that the bible says you can have slaves. It is not the official "word of god" but a work of men and to great extent a work of fiction. Put in historical context it makes perfect sense for them to incorporate slavery into the bible.