someone has been reading his bible.... eye for an eye based on the myth that only the fittest survive, early man was/is in the infancy of comphrehension and understnading, at present we are growing up a bit, some observe unity towards all to be basic instint.....its all inthe persepctive..one lst thing the eye for and eye diety isn't workng out at all.....its sort of obvious..but shh don't say i told you...lol

An eye for an eye also refers to abortion. Its funny that few Christians have picked this up


Exodus 21:22 When people who are fighting injure a pregnant woman so that there is a miscarriage, and yet no further harm follows, the one responsible shall be fined what the woman's husband demands, paying as much as the judges determine. 23 If any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

We all the outcome of the "eye for eye" idea...

Those kind of documentaries are truly sad. They just show how ignorant even those people that make those shows are. It is sad and they cause so much discord by their prying. If you have faith in anything, you must have proven it at one time. Faith is defined in the bible as evidence of things not seen. There is evidence. Just because at one time you could not see it does not mean the evidence is not there. You can not have faith until you have evidence. Oh, and that Ted Haggard, isn't he a beauty? You quit feeding any of those people, after all of their stocks have run out, they will do what they have to to get food. Oh, and that Ted Haggard, he got paranoid that if he did not do anything, the film that he just allowed might be taken wrong. Go to his church now and ask somebody who has seen this film if Ted Haggard will stand up for his people, they'll say 'Oh yeah, he will stand up for his people. I have faith in him.' Well yeah, the evidence is there.

Then that translates as fallacy. Evidence, relates to "Evident". Thus, things not seen can not be evident. Thus, faith in that regard must reject evidence to the contrary, critical thinking and reason.

LOL...I am the co-founder of ExChristian.net (even though I have never been a Christian - long story) and when asked by some of the members there what a Deist was, my reply was "a gutless Atheist"! Yes, we do make up our own god, but then that is exactly what every religion in the world has done. We emphasis love and kindness and are quick to point out that contrary to the history of the major revealed religions there has never been a war intitated by Deists, nor has any witch been burned by a Deist, No Deist ever started or took part in a Crusade and no Deist ever used Deism to cloak the major part of the world in intellectual darkness for 1700 years! Why Deism and not Atheism? We found long ago that mathematically a Creator is no less probable than a self-starting universe and the very life-friendliness of the universe is weak circumstantial evidence of a loving Creator, just as NDEs are weak evidence of life after death (yeah, I know the argument that it is the function of a dying brain, but don't buy into that - the random firings of dying brain cells would lead to random experiences, not the uniform experience worldwide).


Sorry, Greggk, but I can't help but to try to share my knowledge of history, there is no evidence (other than a collection of documents written long after the supposed fact) that Jesus ever existed...So how can a non-existent person save anyone? Nothing more than a crude copy of Krishna or Mithra, both centuries older religions with most of the same basic dogma and storyline.

I admire anyone's faith but no faith is better than any other. Even if you make your God a big unknowable, you are still creating it. It doesn't just exist. At the heart of hearts the truth is that there is no personal God that is not of our making.

I recently wrote a thesis for my graduate class based on The God Delusion by Dawkins. In the research I used the example of Helen Keller.

God theories are based on language and are a result of separation anxieties that come with the use of language. One of the examples I cited was the way whales will beach themselves. Whales are one of the few creatures on the planet that have a form of language and they commit suicide although a scientist would never call it that.

Back to Helen Keller here is a quote from her regarding her experience during the time that she was completely isolated in her own world.



With language comes self awareness and a separation from the collective consciousness. In this is a repeating that Freud describes as a coping mechanism or a syndrome of those who can't move on past a death. This state of melancholia is patterned with repetition and ritual and extreme narcissistic behavior. AKA in my opinion God theories.

Answers, coping with Thanatos, etc.... and it is an important part of survival of the fittest. Those among us who could not cope with the raw death of life died off and those who used a coping mechanism to push this from our minds survived and thrived.

As we are getting less and less afraid of the frailty of life we are slowly starting to realize that the reality is that all the stories we have created are simply stories, no different from the early stories believed by the Ancient Greeks.

I do mind people who push these stories as truths. But I don't mind personal faith. I understand that it soothes people.

When a religion has a long and extremely bloody history, then all other religions are better than it. I present to you the history of Judaism, of Christianity, of Islam. Religions that have killed millions upon millions over centuries. Please don't hand me that liberal pap that "all faiths are good", I assume you would have no heart burn with the ancient faith of the followers of Huitzilopochtli, Lord of the Day. What difference the probably less than a million humans sacrificed over 3 or 4 centuries and the millions exterminated by Abraham's three bloody children over a 3 millenium?

I was thinking about your claims that no witch was ever burned by a Deist. I think you mean "in the name of Deism" but you are talking about things you have no way of knowing. To claim (as Dawkins does about Atheists) that one "group" of people has a moral superiority over another group is just flat out wrong. It always boils down to the individual and the choices they make. In Nazi Germany for example there were people who risked their lives for the sake of the Jews because they would not go along with it. Here in the US there are similar kinds of people during the times of slavery.

In the end what defines any sort of morality is personal choice and personal responsibility and it is these things which I believe in.

Since Deists tended not to adhere to Christian dogma, I would rather doubt that any Deist participated in witch burnings - since they were not Christians, they themselves would have been prime targets of the Church and it's more rabid followers. Tell me have you ever lived in a country where a religion controlled the everyday life of a people?

True I wonder if its humans trying to make sense of the material, natural curiousity to wonder why ????

In Norse mythology, the universe begins with a giant cow licking the gods out of the salty lip of a primordial pit, In Japanese Myth we have the incestuous embrace of the brother and sister gods Izanagi and Izanami.
In one hindu creation myth , all creatures arise out of clarified butter, obtained by the sacrafice of thousand headed purusha..

And more recently we have scientists that have 'constructed' a detailed history of the universe supported by observational evidence...the big bang...

The creation storys aren't as sexy as some or butter doesn't play a significant role in most and some are right of the pages of 'days of our lives" apples and snakes and a bloodlust diety.....but as true said its all stories , some are more plausible constructs,then others but none the less they help define the material.. the danger comes when we take these storys as fact and fight and kill over them or use them to jsutify keeping a humanity ignorant or to do heinous things.....Or to think they are real at the exclusion of all other Myths........



true wasn't Freud a huge cocaine abuser for most of his career????

As I stated when religion creeps into law and rules of society then I have a major problem with it. And yes I do hold people's silence accountable for things that are done in the name of their religion.

However I take issue with your statement that nothing bad was ever done in the name of Deism. That's a very broad claim to make and one without merit.

Frankly you should take a look at this on a personal level in my opinion because that's the scratch point that starts any sort of discrimination, prejudice or bias. Namely absolute certainty that you are correct about your opinion.

As a cynic I am more inclined to think this way:



Being aware of how people typically act and their selfish (not necessarily in a bad way) motives is really how I tend to approach things.

In my mind most religious people are so because they are trying to cope. Atheists and Deists are no different. You should ask yourself why you are so focused on "figuring it out" and by that I mean continual contemplation of things you will never know the answer to. When it is done for the sake of discussion that's interesting and a whimsical past time. But when it is done with a sense of certainty it is complete fraud and thus anyone who challenges this fraud is going to be treated with hostility and defensiveness.

When you see that you are hostile or defensive in my opinion you probably have crossed over to a different kind of thinking. In my mind this kind of thinking is the root and cause of all the problems we face when religion is discussed. People have been doing this forever and will continue to do so. I guess for me I don't want to be part of THAT particular group of sheep.

In the end what defines any sort of morality is personal choice and personal responsibility and it is these things which I believe in.

True the huge problem with this is we are all connected , we are a collective conciousness, the choices of some do affect the whole and as of late some very poor choices have been made to the determent of the whole, we are a relgious regime IMO, Most of our laws are relgious based, and its a great bunch of BS to say that as long as one keeps their beleifs to themselves,( relgions don't keep there beliefs to themselves )whats the harm the harm is obviious you don't have to be reliogius to be hugely affected by its ideas......and its refusal to look at any of them.......Gosh have you read the morality of some of the dogmas???? I would equate it to giving a 4 year old a pack of matches and thinking they won't light them kill themselves and everyone else in their path,then claim the love of their IMaginary diety requires this of them..sorry folks its the sky guys rules i 'm jsut following......, in their ignorance, of course they have been dumbed down as mako siad alot of info is kept from the masses, alot of kids raised relgious will never know anything else exists they have been so isolated and sheltered and brainwashed..........Responsibility is a collective thing, we are all in this together......Not all religious people are kooks but the ones that are are causing alot of harm......

we are damn lucky to have those as mako who devote themselves to raising awareness and educatiog athers, you too on the stuff you have shared.....that is what helps not silence....

Yes Sheri! LOL I am no fan of Freud even though I do agree with some of his observations.

I also agree that "big bang" is just another kind of creation theory.

Tell you what, since you are so certain of that I will hold you to the adage "he who makes extreme claims must product extreme evidence"....In other words show me or shut up about it!

Mako surely you don't believe that Deism is a modern invention. You have no way of knowing.

You are comparing modern Deism to Judeo Christian Muslim beliefs. But long before we had God books we had God theories. And only a fool would believe it was all peaches and roses before the books came along?

And sorry all you have to look at is the American Revolution to see a war committed in the name of Deism among other things.

http://atheism.about.com/od/abouthumanism/a/deism.htm

http://www.sullivan-county.com/deism.htm


ETA I don't need to prove it to you and I don't need to shut up. What a ridiculous thing to say. However how entirely predictable that "shut up" is your reply to the slightest inclination that your OPINION might not be the right answer. Its very typical and really very common. As I stated before I don't have a lot of respect for people who think they have figured it out. I find that really really .....geeze there are no words.

Anyway I am not here to debate your beliefs with you. You insist that your God theory is the right one, the better one, hey however you cope man. Knock yourself out. Some of us don't get upset when our opinions are challenged because its just an opinion and that's ok. You disagree? Good for you.

"As I stated when religion creeps into law and rules of society then I have a major problem with it."

perhaps you mean a broader concept than religion?

what of the US where they have the effects of a theocracy through hegemony, for example?

I get where you are coming from. But I personally don't accept theories of hegemony. I don't believe that its possible to sway people unless they are willing to be swayed. And I still think personal responsibility is the key. You can't dictate to others and when I hear the word hegemony I think "Ok another sociology freshman is here."

To me, and I know others will disagree, but to me it all boils down to the individual and the choices they make. That's it.

The only time I take issue with religion is when it creeps into whats legal or illegal to do. So for example gay marriage. There is no justifiable legal reason this can't be. The only reasons against it are individual personal preferences. And the most unified expression of those preferences are done through religion. If you think about it gay relationships don't even make the top ten commandments in the bible. Yet to hear a religious person speak it seems like its one of the big ones. So why if religious people are so concerned about following the bible, do they not express outrage at lying? That's a doozy right?

Obviously its a personal choice and a loophole found to insist on a religious reason for it. But there skads of other actions and lifestyle choices completely overlooked by the religious. Where for example is the outrage at the Catholic priests???

Its the individual. That's it. That's all it will ever be.

We are all familiar with the quote: "You must be the change you wish to see in the world" That's it in a nutshell. You rage against the intolerance of Christianity with your own intolerance well its so very...............Nigel Powers.

The problem with focusing solely on the individual is that individuals do not exist! As part of a society, people define themselves through the interactions and examples within that society.

Hegemony is a term I rarely use, but I applied it here because it is an important concept. Often, as you suggested, religion is used as the "front", or the justification for a stance on something. It is much easier to sell to a bible-thumping crowd a stance referencing the bible, than perhaps lets say the real reason was not wanting to take on the added costs of extending insurance policy rights to same-sex couples. So we see that indeed a powerful group can manipulate the social structure to meets its own end goals.

The power of the person is seldomly realized, as people are conditioned from birth by these very "interest groups" (religious and secular).

but what and where is this rage you speak of? Do you recall the old quote "keep an open mind, but not so open that your brain falls out?"

True, Hyper and myself live this idea, both of us use our lives to be the difference we wish to see and both are pleased at the progress however tortue it is, neither supports dogmas, as you know i do not feel the public educational system is quality and have joined with the home school movement which in turn is creating alot of change here in my state of California for all children, it began witha few parents who said there has to be another way, we also support the vegan organic lifestyle he far longer than i it was far harder for him yet he did it it when few cared, now we have a great concern for our health and food source n in my state alot is changing for the better, religon as its currently understood is exclusive and dangerous, we both raise awarenss be abridge to all others, Hyper spends countless hours sharing his expertise and it shows he is incredibly intellegent and knows his stuff... .....so as far as personal responsibility we are right up there..... We aren't just two people sitting around b****ing we are proactive in our communitys, and our lives, its both of our passions...To care, to be the first domino, for lack of a beter word... I could go on and on about all we do using our lives, we take it serious we recognize our congruency, in the whole..Knowing we do affect he whole by our choices and we are clear on our choices and are willing to look at them and let them go if they do not produce the greatest outcome for the whole......There are no victums here only the change we wish to see.....

Unfortunately, their usual reflexive defense of the Bible provides cover for people who do want to practice, and enforce on others, all the nonsense and depravity.

Oops I meant a general YOU in the You rage.


I don't believe that people are conditioned from birth. I believe in every single persons's life there is always a choice to do the right thing.

Sheri its no wonder you home school. I have a lot of admiration for people who do because I understand that school systems are the biggest induction into capitalism in the US.

BUT.

I myself never "went along with the others" and my children don't either. So perhaps its me and my dna and its not so cut and dry for others. I do keep an open mind that I might be wrong about this rejection of hegemony but its how I live my life.

true, i jsut gotta ask ya what do you mean by this can you get into this a bit???

'I don't believe that people are conditioned from birth. I believe in every single persons's life there is always a choice to do the right thing. your quote...


How is it your kids aren't influenced at all by there peers, becasue I'd like to know myself..lol...

I'm and adult and i am influenced by others especially ones I deem inspirational, and ones i don't find inspirational, I don't think we can not be affected by our enviorment are surroundings, or the humans in it.. , gosh it makes me think of the be careful of the company you keep lest you become the company and if you are with those that you don't care for the behavior get a move on because eventually even the best of us can be influenced, so its a good idea to create the community you desire... even though i am not relgious , political, etc i am still greatly affected by it, I do not even live remotely in a world of my choice ther is a turtle pace movement towards it but no where near it......No man is an island.....comes to mind...

as paretns the main thing we focus n is the company our kids keep, never allow your kids to be hanging with the kids you prefer them not to be as....
and the best of kids can be influenced too....

true you will love this story, my ex brother in law very christian was telling my ex husband his son never cusses( my ex is telling us this) i turn to my 13 year old and ask does your cousin cuss he said hell yea all the time....
my ex told his brother most boys cuss, his brother said that may be so but not my son, so my ex says to his nephew the next time he sees him so Jay whats your favorite cuss word, as the kid preceeds to tell him......

HAHAHA that's a great story!

I don't know what to say about my kids but I don't allow it. I guess I am really old fashioned. I have always held them personally responsible.


Edited. This is OT so I'm sending it in a PM.

Not all people who believe in God believe in a young earth.

Do you believe in evolution? Did you observe it? Do you believe in the Big Bang? Did you observe it?


This seems like you have strong faith in the scientists who interpret the evidence for you.

And you verify science by...science? Seems a bit circular.

Now despite the fact that this book is mainly philosophy, Dawkins is not a philosopher (he's a biologist). Even taking this into account, however, much of the philosophy he purveys is at best jejune. You might say that some of his forays into philosophy are at best sophomoric, but that would be unfair to sophomores; the fact is (grade inflation aside) many of his arguments would receive a failing grade in a sophomore philosophy class. This, combined with the arrogant, smarter-than-thou ('thou' being believers in God) tone of the book can be annoying. I shall put irritation aside, however and do my best to take Dawkins’ main argument seriously.
-Alvin Plantinga

Well, you asked for it....the basic tenets of Deism existed as far back as Classical Greece and were actually incorporated into several to the philosophies of that period. Then came the Christian age and anything that did not pay total abeyance to this bastardized form of Judiasm and Mithra/Krisha worship was declared blasphemy and the adherents killed (usually in some horrendously painful way such as burning at the stake or draw and quartering). The precursor of modern Deism is a product of the 17th century, first advocated by Edward Herbert, Baron of Cherbury in his “De Viritate” written in about 1624. During the Scottish Enlightment of the 17th and 18th centuries, many of the foremost thinkers and artisans of Scotland were either Deists or Universalists (a fact that often placed them in peril of punishment by the Calvinistic political powers ). Voltaire, a noted French Deist, was instrumental in establishing Deism in France and through his literary works; in Germany and America. This ancestral Deism eventually petered out (although not quite completely) for various reasons, reviving in the 20th century as science answered more and more of the questions on the natural world, the beginning of creation and the evolution of life. I would be a poor Deist if I had no idea of the history of my religion, yet many theists have little or no knowledge of the history of their faith!


In other words you can't and are trying to send up a mask of smoke to cover the fact that you overloaded your rowboat rear end with your steamboat mouth! LOL

I am not the one that can’t come up with evidence for their assertations...I ask for them or for you to drop the subject and you go off...go figger! LOL


It was relatively peaches and cream until Abraham’s three bloody children came along. Most ancient cultures accepted the gods and goddesses of their neighbors and even of their enemies. They would even sacrifice to those deities, along with their own, when circumstance called for it. Few wars were waged for their gods or in the name of their gods. Their gods were asked for help and in victory they were toasted and sacrificed to, but these conquests were not for their gods, but for the King/Pharoah/Emperor. With Abraham’s three bloody children that was not true....their wars were in the name of YHWH/Jehovah/Allah and were for the express purpose of forcing their beliefs on their neighbors....guess which religions had the most books....I hope your major isn’t history! You would give us a bad name....

Yeah, I can just see the regiments of Deists drawn up facing the Red Coats, chanting, “Glory to the Creator”....get real, Deism was never a large group until the 2oth century and only now is growing to where it has to be considered seriously by other faiths. You must have been a Christian at one time, you seem to enjoy attempting to twist history to make your point. If you were attempting to refer to the handful of Deists among the Founding Fathers, while they were influencial, they were no more influencial than others of the Universalist, or Christian faiths.


I could only wish....


Don’t recall every saying my “theory” was the right one, in fact I have made a point on this website that I was not attempting to convert anyone. I don’t really care what Christians, Moslems, Jews, Buddhists, etc believe, just so long as they don’t push their beliefs or attempt to twist history to support the validity of their religion. I cope quite well, incidentally....

Mako it truly engages me that the only way christianity has flourished is through force and terrorizing, its a no brainer to me, and i tell you many actaully the diests the athiests say i'd prefer anything you got before i'd support your values.....i was like that, and I have read you too were called names etc.....the things they stand for I couldn't live with myself knowing i didn't agree to them..I literally can't be into religion its the worst thing i can think of ever doing for any reason, just having to hate gay people i can't do it or have to think woman are less than i can't, or hurt kids and call it for their own good or good parenting....... But things are changing I truly can see it now , i couldn't about 15 years ago but we have made remarkable progress and it has been worth being unpopular.....

Sort of like if you want to rob a bank go ahead I'm gonna pass because I'm real clear on the consequences, and the consequence is who and what i am and that is no small matter....

I really think that you have nothing to lose by being a christian.
if you are, and it's all fake, then you have lost nothing.
if you aren't, and it's real, you spend eternity in hell.



and about the carbond dating, let me tell you a true story.

there was a guy who found bones in his backyard. some scientists came and told him it was a new species from 5,000 years ago using carbon dating. he told them that they werte wrong, it was has black lab he buried 5 years earlier.

Glad to know you are ignorant of Hebrew history.


I wouldn't be judging others given your lack of knowledge in matters of history, especially since you some how major in the subject. Perhaps you are a caricature of a historian?

Actually it is basic history that Christianity flourished when it was being persecuted by the Romans. Christianity was trying to be exterminated by the Romans and Jews; they were beaten and murdered. It is also a no brainier that once the persecution was done, Christianity stopped flourishing because the church got power hungry. However, Christ never instructed to get a hold of the government like the church was doing.

Perhaps you should support the atheists, after all Communism did murder millions of people. Christians were imprisoned and persecution was common. In Africa Christian villages are raided and innocent families are murdered.


I honestly have no clue what you are talking about. We don’t preach hate on anyone. Christianity has been women’s best friend; in fact you couldn’t vote if it wasn’t for Christians! Jesus spoke with women which was a no-no in His days, and yet here you are accusing Christians of doing something that they don’t even promote.


Yeah, people are thinking less critically and accepting what ever they want without reason. They are committing the fallacy of wishful thinking; I believe X therefore X is true. This is not reason, but what ever makes you feel fuzzy.

This is pretty disturbing and the dangers involved with such thinking can be fatal. Go ahead, support Nazism it’s okay for you, but I don’t want to stand by the consequences my government puts on me.

God exists, but before you get all cranky, let me explain. God isn't the almighty as most of us seem to know it. Who exactly defines what he looks like, his age or even if he's a he and not a she, can he be black or even an alien soul? All these possibilities lead to one belief, god exists as all of us. He is no seperate force. It is everything around you is what makes up god. God is simply a definition of everything combined. He is the end result of an equation with many variables.

Another thing I wonder about is the bible! Who actually was in the past and recorded every word, action, and dates everyone said, and how would this person know what to record and if he needed to record? If anyone has true proof, tell me. The people in the past were very weird. I think they made up the religion to make everyone feel like we have purpose here. If God truly existed, why is there diseases, mental retardation, poisonous animals, annoying insects, allergies, dangerous chemicals, fire, bad people? If god existed, none of these things would exist.

Science explains that aliens biologically engineered us to be better than they are, the term used is hybrids. They believed that they made us so powerful that they had to suck up most of the energy from our planet and the planets to keep us in check from learning of our true power. That's why people who perform telekinesis can't do it that easily because very little manipulative energy exists. Eventually science paves the truth. So technically God would be referring to the "aliens". Don't ask on why their heads are so big and their eyes as well. Maybe as us hybrids are a new breed of aliens with better strength to size ratio. The only way I can explain it is the evolution of a computer. It seems as time progresses the computer got smaller but more powerful.

It is true, currently Radio Carbon is our "best estimate" and is the best tool for the job. But, as technology progresses, newer processes replace older methods.

Religion however, doesn't change or adapt, but is 're-interpreted' by the believers. Or, as a few believers have told me they "read, and read, and re-read the bible until it makes sense".
Religion is ultimately subjective, while science strives to be objective.

That does not mean that there aren't scientists who draw preconceived ideas and are biased to their own theories, but overall, science has a checks & balances system of checking results.


editted to remove typo gremlins

That's not a true interpretation of "religion" as any Jew will tell you. Religious reinterpretation is pretty common in all branches.

Joey i like that the beleiever will read and re read and re read till the bible makes sense, i thought they are told what to interpret, few read it themselves , the ones that do are very vocal about it, its a 'real' big deal to decide what the bible means yourself,,, at least what I've observed, have you observed this??

Science does not interpret itself, scientists do that. You can’t verify science by using science because that is circular, but it does not mean science is wrong. There is a difference between good and bad science.


Every scientist has presuppositions. It is our nature to have pre-conceived ideas to what is “true.” But I would agree that there are scientists who are objective to what the evidence means.

In the words of Richard Dawkins,
"Our philosophical commitment to materialism and reductionism is true, but I would prefer to characterize it as philosophical commitment to a real explanation as opposed to a complete lack of explanation which is what you espouse."

Sooooo when a phyicist claims to have developed cold fusion, and presents his paper, there is no way for other phyicists to determine if he is correct?

As I said, science provides checks and balances. Prof T Tube claims "A+B=Result".

Prof B Burner tests the theory, using Prof Tube's notes and comes up with something different.

Prof M Scope, then tests Prof Burner's results and concurs with him, thus invalidating Prof Tube's claims.

Or, they test and conclude that he is correct.

THAT is Science.

In religion, an individual can claim communication from a diety, and the only 'proof' is anothers predisposition to believe or not to believe.

My point is that science can not validate it's tools like the Principle of Uniformity and the realitability of the observation, etc. You have to assume those things are true in order to get the science done.


Like the scent of a rose.

Can't explain in principle or can't explain at this precise moment?

Science can not explain metaphysical truths, mathematics, logic, aesthetical and ethical judgments, as well as science itself.

Wow! Look folks, our resident VI is back! Tell ya what Chih Lao Ho (your moniker in Chinese Kuo Yu), you give me any accepted evidence that Israel or Judah existed prior to the “Divided Kingdom” and then we will talk!

Actually, the difference in the context of comparative relations between Rose scent and "god" mythology, is one first has the ability to take into their possession the rose, that emits the scent. And with the evolution of chemical and histochemical science/research, one now has the ability to not only possess a rose, but ascertain what makes it smell so sweet. A rose by any other name is...a product of chemical and histochemical analysis.

Agreed. Which is exactly why science doesn't do it.



Correct. That is the entire *point* of science. If evidence tells us we are wrong, we have no choice but to accept it. Scientists are not ashamed of this, we are *proud* of it. Quite properly.



'even' Einstien? What an odd thing to say.

Scientists don't care about proof. They care about evidence.

a most excellent post, i reread it and enjoyed it just as much the second time around... How fortunate Um is to have your expertise...

paper tiger .. christianity has not been womans best freind, any more then its about 'love' chritianity has surpressed women and continues to try to this day,.....They say well the women has a role , to be subservient and less than, the man is the authority......How can anyone know what christ did or didn't do let alone if he existed...the gospels were written long after he walked the earth..its hearsay at best....throwing the female a bone of acknowledgement is not any indicatinion of how christians have done anything to treat the female with equality....the new testament had its oppourtunity and nothing was changed to place the female on equal ground, ther are no scriptures redefining the equality of the female.........so save it , i came to this discussion savvy.....

I do not see where you explain to me the scent of a rose, care to try again?


Define what you mean by sweet.

Highly irrelevant. It is like asking to describe the scent of rubber and you go into how it is manufactured and other irrelevant information.

In order for your quote to be valid you will have to give me NT sayings were women are being degraded (in proper context), explain to me the women’s rights, and lastly where is this “suppression” happening.


Source because I know this is false.

First you will need to construct an argument for why the NT is not reliable. After you will have to deny non-Christian sources who mention Jesus.


Your bold assertions are staggering. Source because I can easily rebuttal this.

Unless you want to remain ignorant.


Provide a quote from Jesus, the apostles, Bible, etc. that can warrant this statement or else I will equate it with pure speculation and in error of wishful thinking,

Ahhh the joys of blind faith, and the discerning ability to ignore all other datum.

No sense arguing with or trying to share thoughts with paper tiger- his mind is made up.

To continue to rise to his statements, would merely result in giving oneself a headache.



namaste

Paper, Are you inferring that the bible is a valid source of lifes wisdoms.. come on now snakes talking and females being made from ribs, and people turning to salt , and arks carrying the entire biomes, all 6 of the land ones, not counting the oceans, Frogs falling from the sky etc, jesus raising from the dead, slapping together an entire universe in 6 days.... ??????

Everyone has presuppositions; the only problem is if you are willing to change them. My mind is not “made up,” but if you actually have anything logical to add than perhaps we can attempt to dialogue instead of you arguing ad hominem. Perhaps you can actually make a coherent statement before inferring "blind" faith on anyone.