A biased documentary but interesting nevertheless.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6...p;q=documentary

I think I remember someone else already posted this...and I think I remember it turning out badly.

Ooops sorry, I didn't realise it's already been posted. Umm, feel free to close the topic then.

45% of the people on this planet believes that the earth is under 10,000 years old?

are you f**** kidding me?!

what about all the dinosaur-skeletons? that has been proven to be MILLIONS of years old by carbon-14 dating?

faith is nothing more than brainwashing... Think about all the money the churches make and the power they posses... it's only business... it's always been business

Ya this is exactly what happened in the other thread i think.

come on man... you can't seriously say, that it doesn't sound a bit odd?

Was it started by that same SN, then to?!

I think the reason a video/thread like this , turns out badly is because people take it's message personally. As if it's saying "you are deluded if you believe in god", to each and everyone that does. But I think in order to be fair, one has to remove themselves from the emotion and observe the information contained in materials, of this particular nature and instead of taking it's content as a personal hit, asking themselves at the very heart of it all: What is it I choose to accept as truth!?

I think he meant that people from either sides picked on certain claims from the documentary and that it led to an argument instead of a discussion. I could be wrong though.

Agreed.

I think you're right, but I'm not taking anything personally. If you wanna believe in god... fine... won't keep me up in the night, trust me...

I'm just saying.. think about it... it doesn't make any sense that the earth should be no older than 10000 years old.

I believe in what I can measure, what I can see and what science tells me... because science is evidence...

I for one am up for an argument any time ! Just let me put my gloves on...................

Thats why they call it faith...

And delusion........Oooops, here it comes.........

I just find it disturbing, that in our society, where we know so much and are so technologicly advanced, people still believe that the earth was created by an intelligent divine power in 6 days :/

I think that there are many things science can't explain. I didn't start this thread to make people pick sides and as I've said, the documentary is biased but I found it interesting. Religion, any religion, should not be kept on a golden throne but instead it should be something we can all touch, feel, shake (just to see what souind it makes) and by all means make our own conclusions based on our own inner compas.
And I think it's very healthy to challenge our own beliefs from time to time whatever they might be. As we all grow as people and learn new things we should always question how it *fits* into our belief system.
That is, if spirituality is that important to you in the first place.

you're absolutely right... it is healthy to challenge what you believe in.. I did that when I was younger. I started to see the reality. I started to see the real world around me. I seriously believe, that the reason why mr. whatever wins the lotto, is because he picked the numbers by chance, not because he has been praying to win for the last 20 years...

I used to believe in god, but there are just so many things about religion, in general, that just doesn't add up in this technologically advanced society of ours...

I felt sick inside of me, when I learned, that the my children will be taught that god created the earth at an age, where they don't even know who they are themselves... They won't even be taught the learnings of darwin in science-class... I live in denmark, and it is mandatory for kids in public schools to learn about god... and when do they start learning about this? at 1st grade and all the way through 7th grade... it's ridiculous... I would accept it, if they provided an alternate theory, but no...

there's gonna be some serious explaining when my kids grow older...

Hang on a minute..He did have help you know...How does the saying go..? Behind every great divine power there's a few million blind faithfuls !!!!

In all seriousness, if you feel that strongly about it, talk to the school's principle and have them excused from that particular subject....I'm sure if you state your position in written form they might listen... Or if that fails teach you kids how to daydream during class....It worked for me for my maths subject !!

Reminds me of someone I know that said, science isn't evidence of anything. It's theories and projections, based on observations of relative properties and causal phenomenon. (Don't look at me, I see a periodic table and suddenly forget my name. )

If anything, science lends evidence we'll always keep looking for the why of what made us. And as soon as we think we see the picture, it'll change and we'll again have a reason to keep looking. But knowing would be so boring. Familiarity breeds contempt.

yeah, I've already written a letter to their teacher, asking for permission to skip class... I'm not gonna fill their head with stuff like that. When they're old enough, they should figure out for themselves..

that might be, but THAT compared to a story that has been written ages ago, where we know nothing about anything... I mean, people thought that the earth was flat o.O

As a mum of school-aged kids I agree.... Good luck with your letter!!!!!!!

Bla!!! Bla!!
I find it disturbing that in our society, where we know so much, but are technological misfits. It seems we can't solve our own problems technology or not! people still can't fathom there is a divine creator behind all of our advanced screw ups . Our world would be perfect, if it wasn't for us intelligent humans-- Go figure.

Get real... It's only a percentage of people on this planet that screws it up for us all... I have nothing to do with the ENRON thing, or the 9/11 thing, or all the crackkokaine floating around in the streets, and there's a lot of people out there, that are intelligent enough to know what is right or wrong...

doesn't exactly take a rocketscientists to figure out, that stabbing someone for money is wrong... get a ****ing job..

I got two, you can't get one?!

One cannot use carbon dating for things more than a couple of dozen thousand years old. One must use, I think, some uranium isotope to date the geological layer fossils are found in.

hmm. Huffy puffy big tuffy, you got yourself a J O B (S) Woooooo Hooooooo!! <applause><applause>



Now, back on topic--> GOD?

Yes but you(and by extension me and everybody else) lets the bad things happen. Evil only prevails when good people do nothing. When good people allow evil to happen their a part of that evil.

*Throws some water on the thread*

Actually speaking in the former wouldn't be appropriate, even today. I have a buddy that lives on the east coast, in Amish country. Horses, he supplies with feed and grain from the local Amish farm/grain seller. Their children go to their own schools only until the 6th grade. And they're taught that the planets are disc's and everyone that says they're ellipsoidal (as in our Earth) or round, as is commonly thought, are co-sponsoring a conspiracy of lies.

No, but I wish I were kidding. I accompanied him once, while visiting his family, to help load bails of straw and such. The kids were coming from the school where it was situated in the woods, behind this farm. I asked the kids if this was true, in a round about manner. I was told, yes. I smiled, finished feeding their stallion in the coral behind the stock barn, after having loaded our supplies on my buddies flatbed truck, and went home with my friend. Amazing! The children are our future and some think the Earth is still flat.


And I'd like to comment on the thought about when the world realizes there's a divine creator behind everything. Faith, precludes fact. Perhaps when the world stops giving all their responsibilities up to the excuse of a divine creator interceding on behalf of the human condition, we'll evolve as a human global society beyond thinking genocide, invasion, subjugation and abdication of free will, is necessary to please that which we can not see. But which our actions make us suffer in living flesh, as evidence we're willing to do that to ourselves and others, in the continued hope it is there.

I knew it i not to long ago used this in a post and I was told its not possible that their is anyone who thinks the earth is flat.....well it seems there is....

ahem, but Carbon Dating is something we made up, and is technically only a guess on data that was created by a group of scientists x years ago......haha and bones could have been manufactured....

Bones could have been manufactured!? Now, I've heard some wild theories on a lot of things, but that is a stretch beyond the boundaries of the absurd. How desperate are you to think that's actually a viable argument!?

This is something that most people don't understand. Scientists are the ones who came up with carbon dating. There isn't a guarantee that they are correct. For now, as other scientists have told me, its our best guess and it could turn out that they are wrong.


I love how people will say religious people are brainwashed for believing things made up by men but when people just accept scientific guesswork, then its superior.

Cynicism in regard to everything you are being told not to question is a good thing. It keeps the ball rolling.

That may be because science has something to work with, rather than theists beginning any standpoint, from a platform of make believe.

Perhaps skepticism, is the word you're thinking of here. Because cynicism has a totally different component all together. Then again, maybe you mean to be spot on. However, cynics are never really respectful/respected, in serious articles of debate. Hence, the projection perhaps the phrasing was wrong. No insults intended.

Actually, Radioactive Carbon Dating is firmly based on the Creator’s own natural laws and is merely a method of measuring the radioactive decay of Carbon 14 (C14) back to the Nitrogen that it was violently formed from (when nitrogen, atomic number 7 and atomic weight of 14, is struck by a high energy neutron from Cosmic Rays, it absorbs the neutron and emits a proton. This transforms it to a new element of atomic number 6, carbon. But this carbon isotope has the atomic weight 14. Its two excess neutrons cause it to be very unstable, and it will eventually experience radioactive decay, changing back to the stable element nitrogen). Using the more efficient and reliable TAMS (tandem particle accelerator and mass-spectrometer) system, coupled with archaeological site stratigraphy, dendrochronology and site sedimentary analysis, carbon dating is accurate to a 95% degree for just slightly beyond 10,000 years. This space covers the entire biblical and Christian eras plus 3.5 times more!


Just for your edification, that x years ago was in the ‘50s by Willard Libby (he received the Nobel Prize in 1960 for this discovery, it was not a made up system but a system based on sound scientific prinicples)

Religion is accepted as the truth, no matter how ridiculous the belief, not matter how unverifiable the “facts” are. Religion is never reviewed by its’ adherents, just accepted as the “Truth”. This constant harping on faith (accepting the unprovable as fact) is definitely a type of brainwashing. Science, on the other hand, is under constant scrutiny, testing and (as necessary) tweaking and correcting. The various scientific systems are not “made up” but instead based on sound scientific principles. That is a world of difference (and much more trustworthy) from religion, most of which are carryovers of the beliefs of Bronze Age Savages, squatting around a fire outside a nomad tent!


True....unfortunately most theists are not cynical, only sheep following the leader toward non-existent “pie-in-the-sky”.....

I don't find this to be true about religious people at all. Most religious people I know Do question their beliefs. I know there are fanatics that follow blindly but most people I have encountered question the teachings and examine their faith a lot. Many of the attacking atheists on this board presume that they are the only ones that have challenged the idea of god and thus come away not believing. But my experience has been that more people have challenged and come away believing. I don't believe myself but I have nothing but contempt for the arrogance of those convinced that their feeble mind's interpretation of reality is superior to the mind of the believer. In fact what I have noticed is that those with the most narrow minded views and mean spirited personalities are common in both believers and non believers and that they are in fraternity of ignorance and pomposity despite their ideological differences.

In addition all of science is based on human interpretation of the findings and human predictions. So there are some human truths but that does not mean they are absolute truths. Deciding that the human interpretation is the TRUTH is akin to blind faith in my opinion.

Many times science has been certain of a so called truth based on Scientific study only to have that truth over turned later by some other finding.

Even Einstein recognized the difference between proof and truth.

“Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of Truth and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods.”

That is the beauty of science...it is constantly being tested and retested and tweaked and corrected as necessary...what testing and tweaking has religion gone through? the beliefs today are basically the same as that ignorant Bronze Age savage squatting around the fire! Don't speak of how narrow minded non-believers are, they at least had the gumption to think outside the theistic box and see the unreliability of the various theistic belief systems. their problem is that they can't get the mind-locked of theism to see the truth. The average theist DOES NOT question his religion, he has been brought up to accept it as it is, else there would be constant major flux within the organization. As a Deist, I do not have the arrogance to attempt to tie the Creator down with (what would be to him/her/it) inferior human failings and emotions! I constantly strive to understand the Creator through study of his creation.

I have noticed that human interpretation of the effects of gravity seem to be factual....humanity is blessed/cursed with the ability to reason (something that seems to be sadly lacking in adherents of the revealed religions) and to make relatively accurate predictions based on their observations and reasonings. If they were not accurate, we would not be exchanging broadsides! I present our modern technical society as evidence of the validity of science - can you present your god in person as evidence of the validity of your religion?

There is no knowable truth, only evidence of what the truth might be. Science claims to present no truths; only evidence, in the form of observations and theory, of what truth probably is. Religion presents itself as the truth with absolutely no evidence that it is valid, just faith and feelings (LOL)! Which should the logical man follow? Your choice, but too often religion has led millions astray and to oblivion with promises of pie in the sky for perpetrating vast evils against those who do not believe the same. Science does not kill, only the misapplication by those in power (quite often theists, using the power of science for theistic reasons - Iraq) kills. I personally perfer logic to faith, logic seldom leads you to trod the fringes of insanity as faith does. Just my personal thoughts

There is no knowable truth, only evidence of what the truth might be. Science claims to present no truths; only evidence, in the form of observations and theory, of what truth probably is. Religion presents itself as the truth with absolutely no evidence that it is valid, just faith and feelings (LOL)! Which should the logical man follow? Your choice, but too often religion has led millions astray and to oblivion with promises of pie in the sky for perpetrating vast evils against those who do not believe the same. Science does not kill, only the misapplication by those in power (quite often theists, using the power of science for theistic reasons - Iraq) kills. I personally perfer logic to faith, logic seldom leads you to trod the fringes of insanity as faith does. Just my personal thoughts yes.gif

this is very well said mako....thanks...

De Nada Amiga, est mi gusto.

The average theist DOES question their beliefs. You are incorrect. I guess it is easier for some non believers to pat themselves on their backs for their superiority over believers. But in my opinion those whose self esteem is based on feeling "better than others" have really no self esteem at all. Its actually very very sad in my opinion.

As far as the "beauty of science" well I am a cynic. Because science is very narrow minded when it is sure it has found the correct answer. Scientists are the ones who said the earth was the center of the universe and fought against those who stated otherwise.

There is no one more Narrow minded than a scientist who thinks he has found the answer....well no one except for a religious fanatic who thinks they have found the truth.

They are both cut from the same cloth.

Only those open minded to hear what the other has to say are the ones who have ever made a difference in this world in a positive way and ironically they have come both from the world of science and the world of religion.

The one thing they have is TOLERANCE for differing views. Something that is clearly lacking in those who think they have found the "truth."

true, science, good science never says I've found the answer it only points to a probability.....

contemplation is based largely on observational skills, this is not used in relgion, blind faith and hearsay is......

having the answer already is not questioning.....True i have sat with many a relgious pimper and i feel very confident that i understand the way questioning is understood, it means the bible has a answer for everything if it doesn't any other idea or why or why not is dismissed or molded to fit what the relgious person beleives, the bible.....I am fairly sure that is what mako means......

Hmm Sheri I understand what you mean but I guess it depends on who you talk to. I know many people who went back and forth between belief and disbelief and finally settled on belief basically because of the spiritual connection they yearned for, and also the sense of not understanding what started everything.

I myself am always dumbfounded that people really and truly believe not necessarily in "God" but in Jesus and the stories in the bible. I can't comprehend how an otherwise intelligent person's answers to things are WWJD. But to insinuate that they are blind sheep is ridiculous. They are not blind. Faith is not the absence of doubt but the choice to believe in spite of doubt.

True how often do you hear a relgious person say they have doubt ( being unsure of anything) I will say its not a remote obscure rarity becasue we actually have 101 who does question and PA, but its not the norm..... Would you agree???


Really True mako isn't intentionally insulting as you said you too find things very questionable....

Not really Sheri. Most of the believers I know sound like Paranoid Android. But as I said its who you know and who you associate with. So basically its on you and what energy you are putting out there.

To me what you are saying is a stereotype. I don't think IamsSon is like that nor do I think Irish is. Nor do I think Berry is....well there you go many people are not blind sheep and its a flat out sign of insecurity in my opinion when someone tries to dismiss another persons perspective by only seeing it as a stereotypical view.

As I said. Intolerance is not limited to believers. I find Atheists to be far more intolerant towards Christians than Christians are towards Atheists.

But then again its who I surround myself with so perhaps you know different kinds of people. I know they exist and they are hideous people. I have just rarely run into them. One of my good friends is a born again Christian and I have gone to many dinners at her house with her Pastors from two different churches and they have never been the type that follow blindly. Nor have they ever condemned me for being an Atheist. I had my son in Catholic school and they know I am an Atheist. No problem.

{{shrug}} as I said. Its really dependent on who you know.

true i know you are a mama as i am and there are just things our kids by their actions demostrate to us they aren't ready for, is it mean or intolerant , wrong to consider this when deciding things that are of utmost value, a persons belifs to the person are of alot of value and a persons perspective esepcially a kids is limitied in understanding and experince from the scope of a limited construct it creates a box, so for all concerned for the benefit of all some things have to be held off until at which time the understnading grows......... i sort of see religion as a very superfical view of things ...one that feels they are aware or enlightened simply sees what is so and does what works for the best of all.....a construct that uses faith as its only device for validity, maybe isn't always the best thing, and at the very least if we are staying with kids i make sure my kids have tools to dea with life and faith isn't high on the list........ the best thing is to encourage the tools that will help the person grow not encourage ones stagnation.....

also noone is absolved from intolerance its how one uses it that is important......we all can be both.....


look I know you are a good friend to son and i too stand up for my freinds but this is not personal....


i am not personal with son, i have hard good things about him from those that know him...but this is a skeptics forum...... , ..... i really only know Pa and 101 to say who they are...irish has never been a issue i actually respect him alot......

There is no issue other than the ones that are fabricated, many come here knowing its not personal......possibly the intolerance is best looked at in how its it being used....to question blind faith and what not wouldn't fall into intolerance for me.....but I have a long rope....

I agree Sheri. I think that you are very tolerant and an open minded person. Questioning blind faith is of course a worthwhile topic of conversation. One I myself have engaged in. But what I see a lot of is lumping ALL faith in with blind faith when that simply is not the case at all.

I don't believe in God and I think I think of Deists as flakes in general. I notice they want to have their own "version" of God while they repeatedly mock and disparage other people's versions of God. BUT I would never categorize all Deists this way as I am aware that not all Deists are like this.

I am careful to be tolerant of other people's views because I do think we learn more from asking why people want to believe in something. I believe in nothing and I think its interesting that people yearn to believe and can't just accept what I consider the reality before us.

However as you stated its what we DO with that belief that matters and so I reserve my judgment.

True its good to have you around to remind us to not do the one size fits all...JMPD does that too.....


Its a very valid point to be aware that we all can get carried away, i can and i apprecaite a reminder and get them...lol....


Well as far as diesm goes i really have a great resepct if I was to do constructs i'd sit a spell in this one its seems loving and we all can benefit from some good old fashioned hugs and kisses esepcially from our diety of choice....I can say mako is a very lovely man and is freinds with everyone on here no matter what and he would rap with you anytime..... its helpful to those wanting to transition out of the fear constructs to a loving place, its not the worst thing, I have not ever noticed diest plugging anything but a loving god and i see no harm in that, I see athiesm as a repose and rest from the fear construct( it was an athiest many moons ago that was my hope so they have a fondness in my heart) never met one I didn't dig....its a transition in a different way.....I think there is value in all things , but creating dependencys is where I question...the mom in me i guess and I know you can relate.......

my comments are not directed at mako specifically. Its a trend I have noticed lately of willfully ignoring the obvious fact that there are gradients and differences in the way people believe.

Its fine to have a brawl with someone who is screaming how only through Jesus can you get to heaven. But a far different thing to say that ANYONE who believes in a Christian God or a Muslim God or whatnot, automatically subscribes to the worst elements of that religion.

To me a Deist takes the cake because a deist is like an atheist that Chickened out LOL.

The character of many deists I have met have been cowardice. Angrily criticizing in mean and demeaning ways other people's coping mechanism of faith while in the same breath justifying their "spirituality" and whatnot.

Also atheists getting bent out of shape over a persons PERSONAL coping mechanism is another thing that bothers me. Leave them be. Don't brow beat a Christian for believing in Christ even though the bible is filled with nonsense and moral depravity. Obviously most of them are not practicing the bible in a literal way.

To me as you stated, it boils down to the individual and how they behave and more importantly how their faith effects my life and the life of people. So for example I get very angry at Christians standing in the way of gay marriage.

A person's personal spirituality should never be open for ridicule. It is only when those beliefs start to influence the laws of the land do I start to have a problem with it.

To me a Deist takes the cake because a deist is like an atheist that Chickened out LOL.

well true you do really look into things....not to long ago Irish started a thread on the 'the awakend one"s a pet name... put the NB's under the microscope.....I do agree it should all be looked at......
i appreciated the feedback,teh contrast is only of value for me...........

I wonder how and am not sure yet as to how much ones beleifs affect the whole , it seems quite a bit......so for now I'm out on the rights of wht one bleives.....I'l ponder on it see where it leads me.....

There is everything and everything works off of the principle 'an eye for an eye.' Sadam Hussein kills 2 million people, somebody will kill him, and they did. You can't hide from everything. If you wish to call everything God, so be it. But, Jesus Christ is the savior of everything. You commit some kind of violent crime and run, even the stones will turn you in. Everything will adjust to capture you.

I do not understand why people limit God. That is why God said even if you deny me, I cannot deny myself. Denial is one thing. You can deny the existence of everything, but that does not eliminate anything. Semantics, I guess.