QUOTE(micklemas @ Jan 25 2007, 01:49 PM) [snapback]1514681[/snapback]
I think in the Bible it is pretty clear that man and God have free-will
I beg to differ.
QUOTE(micklemas @ Jan 25 2007, 01:49 PM) [snapback]1514681[/snapback]
Free-will of man.
I see nothing about free will in there, just that man's ways are not God's ways.
QUOTE(micklemas @ Jan 25 2007, 01:49 PM) [snapback]1514681[/snapback]
When man uses his free-will God will use His.
Hmm. I see that God states "perhaps they will change", and while it is circumstancial, I do not believe this is indicative that God gave them a choice. So let's look at the other side of things. The lack of free will (predestination). 1 Peter 2:8 is the single most obvious verse, where it states of non-Christians - "They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also
what they were destined for."
But if you want the best exposition of such a topic, Romans 9 is a great passage. Paul answers many questions that a Christian can't logically ignore simply because they believe in freewill.
Freewill is a fairly recent concept, historically speaking. Since then, Christians have latched onto freewill as a reason for our existence here on earth, and it often makes sense. Being on this earth is God giving us our "choice" to follow God. But before this time, the idea of freewill was never an issue.
I don't normally like to quote extensive Bible passages, but I'm afraid I have to in order to answer this question. For those skeptics who don't want to read chunks of Bible, feel free to skip to the end (where it says "End Bible Quoting"). Or read it and consider it ammunition against other Chrsitians, lol.
Looking at Romans 9 then, picking up from verse 10:
10 Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." Paul starts in vers 10 by appealing to the Old Testament story of Esau and Jacob. Esau lost his birthright to Jacob, even though he was the rightful heir. Paul states clearly in verse 11 -
before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad - in order that God's purpose in election might stand: not by works..... I can't see it getting any clearer than that. God's purpose of election in choosing one over the other, not because of anything they had done, indeed before they were born this was chosen. This should end the debate, but the rest of this chapter provides great insight also......
14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. Paul again draws on Old Testament references, quoting the story of Pharaoh and Moses in Exodus 33 in stating
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy". He repeats this in various wording in this section multiple times. And in verse 17, again talking of Pharaoh -
I (God) raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power..... Does this sound like Pharaoh had a choice in the matter? Not to me, especially when Exodus notes that Pharaoh was about to let the Israelites go, except for God's intervention in hardening Pharaoh's heart. And next is where the passage gets really interesting on the debate....
19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' " 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?Paul specifically addresses the argument that many today use "if God made me like this, how can God still blame me for my actions". And the simple answer Paul gives - who are you to talk back to God. God, the King, the creator. You can't understand GOd. he's too big for you, you're just a human. It's not an answer a lot of people like. It's not exactly an ideal answer, and I sure wish he provided a better one, but it's the answer Paul gives. Paul then uses an analogy that any in the day could understand - the potter can make grand pots or common use pots. A decorative vase, or a chamber pot for example. The pot has no say in the matter - it's all up to the creator of the pot. Moving on......
22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?And I'll end my discussion here after these verses (the rest of the chapter is interesting, but this is the climax of the passage, as I can see). Paul theorizes why people are actually created for destruction. What if God created these
"objects of his wrath - prepared for destruction" to show those he created the riches of his glory, whom he
"also prepared in advance for glory". He prepared certain people for destruction, in order to show glory to those who also were prepared such.
*END BIBLE QUOTING*I at one stage believed in freewill also, but after studying the Bible, found that it is just not compatible with scripture. But does that give me the right to sin because I'll just be doing what God prepared for me to do? By no means. In addition to this chapter saying I'll still be held accountable, read Romans 6 (hell, read the whole book of Romans. It'll give you a good outline for the entire CHristian Faith).
From our perspective, we do not know God's ultimate plan. What we do is very much our own choice (at least it feels like it). Therefore, what you do, you have no excuse for. We do not have "free will", but as Australian theologian Al Stewart describes it, we instead have "real will". I have the option here to type or not to type, to go out or to stay at home. It very much feels like my choice, but when the choice is made, it was what was destined to happen anyway. Real Will, and God will hold us accountable for that.
Of course, micklemas, I am not adverse to you giving me your own opininon of Romans 9. In itself, it shows me without a doubt the absence of free will. But if you think it's saying something else, I'm all ears. Your thoughts on the passage would be most interesting to hear. Or if you just want to ask for clarification on any particular point in my post, then feel free also to ask away.
Regards, PA