Do forgive me if this has come up before -- I searching for this and was unsuccessful, but maybe I wasn't looking properly.

There is an old philosphical question than uses the presence of Evil to question the nature of god, challenging the traditional Christian (and other faiths) supposition that god(s) is all powerful, all good and and all knowing. For this purpose, let me define evil as innocent people suffering for no reason.
The argument goes along something like this:

If god knows evil exists (because he is all-knowing) and does nothing to stop it (which he could, being all-powerful), he is not all good.
If god knows evil exists (because he is all-knowing) and does nothing to stop it because he is unable to, he is not omnipotent.
If god does not know evil exists, he is not all-knowing.

Most people attack this by questioning the first argument, and this is what interests me: why do people assume god is good? How do they talk themselves out of this argument? Perhaps more broadly, how can you logically or coherently claim to know much about god? I know what I think and why (and am willing to discuss it), but I've never quite understood why other people feel they way they do.


-- Jaylemurph

Nothing can be pure good or pure evil, good and evil are both halves of a perfect sphere, without evil there could be no good, and vice versa, therefore God could not be all good.
Also, in my opinion evil is in the eye of the beholder, what is evil to one, might not be so evil to another.

Many think that created in gods image and likeness means, that our physical bodies look the same , and many beleive that jesus was born of immaculate conception, meaning literally of a virgin one who has never had sex, and many beleive that adam and eve gave birth to original sin when it was the birth of choice ... and many believe that god is good and that which isn't of god is evil, now how was that determined, well as we can see its a reflection of mans understandings and his lack of the ability to comprehend what he thinks he knows......personally its a very superfical barely scrapes the surface on understanding much of anything....At best we have mythological models to help understand the material, the good and evil is really attempting to convey dualism, or the relative......clearly in a way that is comprehensive freindly but many have taken it literal.....

If god knows evil exists (because he is all-knowing) and does nothing to stop it (which he could, being all-powerful), he is not all good.
If god knows evil exists (because he is all-knowing) and does nothing to stop it because he is unable to, he is not omnipotent.

This argument relies strongly on the notion that this life here on earth is the most important thing in our existence. Therefore any suffering or evil that one suffers is wrong and should be condemned. However, if one considers for a moment that God is not so short-sighted that he can only look to the well-being of this life, then a larger picture may be seen. If we take into account the context of eternity, is our happiness and well-being on earth for a measley century-long existence (at most, if we're lucky) really the most important thing. What is the point of prospering and going through life with no worries, no pain, no hurt, yet forfeit eternity.

An eternal God may very well have different priorities than us. We see God allowing evil. When I was a kid, I thought mum and dad were evil when they wouldn't let me stay up late. But mum and dad had a larger perspective than I did. I believe God has a larger perspective than we do, and I see eternity as much more important than the ultimately trivial evils that we may face in this world.

Then of course the question becomes whether this life could exist without evil and suffering. That's a little harder to answer. Does the killer or rapist add anything to our life, or only take away. Would God interfere with his creation and stop them from killing that person, for example? What about diseases, or viruses though, would God interfere and stop people from getting sick? Oh, and what about natural disasters - would God stop the earthquakes and tsunami's? If we answer "yes" to all these questions, then what would life be like with no suffering. Imagine, never having suffered, never to suffer. All there is, is a life free of these pains. Can one appreciate happiness without also experiencing sadness?

Just a few thoughts to consider.

Regards, PA

QUOTE(jaylemurph @ Jan 23 2007, 04:33 PM) [snapback]1513156[/snapback]

For this purpose, let me define evil as innocent people suffering for no reason.

Well, that's kind of a problem right there, Jay. What you're saying is that you don't know why innocent people suffer. Perhaps there is a reason. Perhaps the reason is simply beyond your understanding. Implicit in your definition of evil, is the idea that suffering is somehow appropriate for people who are not innocent. Is that your idea of God, as a righteous punnisher of the wicked?

What if suffering were simply a consequence of the choices we make? We humans have a long, long way to go before we understand why everything happens. If God allows us to be ignorant and therefore to make many, many mistakes, I see no need to jump to the conclusion that He is evil. No one would ever learn a thing if God reached down and fixed everything that went wrong.

lets face it if there EVER was a good hes LONG goone now ??? he saw that there was NO helping these people "humans" so he just left us to each other... stop beliving and live ur life...
how is it that people will NOT belive me when i say i have 100000 gold bars in my house.. they useally say i wont belive it until i see it ... but they WILL belive in going to a NICE place after they die... pleace noone HAS ever seen and noone ever will ???

Personally, I don't believe in god.... But if he/she does exist, I'm sure a being that is omnipotent and all-knowing has a VERY different set of values that define good and evil than we do. Therefore, to say that god is the embodiement of good would be somewhat wrong - God may be good (In it's eye's) but it's morality may be much more questionable in humans eye...

Does the bible not state that we should live a good life here on Earth or suffer eternal damnation (whatever you consider damnation to be)? If we are to look at the Christian God as defined in the bible then our Earthly life does matter, it is important and therefore evil is pertinent to questioning whether the bible truly describes God. If it does not then why not? Could God not be 'inspiring' enough to provoke a reasonable description of himself through the rapture the authors are said to have written under?

I appreciate many who call themselves Christian are not strict followers of the bible. However it is the only description of God we have to go on, and some of it is an account of God on Earth through His Son. Can you question the God of the bible and still call yourself Christian?

Not implying you can't, it's not a rhetorical question.

Another thing, if God was/is perfect then how could He change from the wrathful God of the OT into the omni-beneficient God of the NT? Perfect would, to me, imply finality, stasis.

You do not have to have an opposite of something to realise it. Is there evil in the presence of God, in the Christian Heaven? If there is not, then by your logic no good would be possible there.

Well, god... sorry, God is not really omnipotent, as that is a paradox: if he's omnipotent, he should be able to create a sammich that he can not eat, but if he can not lift, sorry, eat this sammich, he is not omnipotent.

So there you have it.

I find your post very interesting. I personally do not believe in a God, but at the same time I wouldn't be able to say I know for certain one does not exist. Perhaps I shall find myself to be wrong, but that is nothing I care to personally look into anytime soon.

Evil exists because man has free will and does evil.

God must allow evil to exist as long as he allows man his free will.

Man is the only proof that evil exists...

Unlike this character Satan..we dont have actual proof he is evil...but we have real proof that man is

Only man can do evil because currently, only man is the only self-aware entity that has a concept of right/wrong.

I define evil as taking more than one needs when others have less than they need.
In order for evil to be comitted, one has to have the ability to reason.

From an essay I wrote recently.


Check out Martin Buber

http://buber.de/en/work

Actually the message of the Bible is no matter how good a life you live here on Earth, you're decisions have set you on a path to eternal death/damnation.

I don't think PA said that our life here doesn't matter, but that in the context of an eternal life, it is not as all-important as we see it currently. I believe the experiences we have in this life will be critical to our eternal life, just like what soldiers experience in 9 weeks of Basic Training have direct impact on 20+ years of a military career.

I'm someone who considers himself a follower of what God communicates to us through the Bible and what I see is that those who were closest to God, who were considered to be His followers questioned Him, I question God, the thing is I question Him because I know He's there, I don't question whether He is or not, AND I am usually satisfied with the answers I get


if you actually read the Old Testament, God is called good and loving quite a bit. The biggest difference seems to be that for this part of His plan, He has decided to work almost exclusively through those who follow Him, instead of acting directly.

I think we would not realize that Heaven is a place of only good, if we had not experienced evil along with good first, which is why the world is the way it is.

So - Evil Exists because man has free will.

If man has Free will, God cannot control his actions (Otherwise it would not be called free will).

Therefore god is not omnipotent and unworthy of the title "God".

Not if the only reason you have free will is because God has granted it to you.

Why would God want to control his actions??

What makes you think that God would want to interfere?? if god were to interfere, then we would ALL be doing his will (whatever it may be) and no need for us to do much, cuz God is there to do it all...yea..be useless and do sweet Fanny all for yourself

lovely!!

Great essay...it gets straight to the point...people suffer and we are all responsible ... What do we do??

If we help, do we have a hidden agenda? if so is that really helping?

Im sitting here yapping over a toothachce but how do those cope with cancer??...I can get treatment easy...but can they??

how many ask themselves this?

.

God is the Creator of evil and thus, there is a reason for all suffering.


Says who? God has created evil as a factor in his Creation in order to aid Creation in fulfilling its purpose.


God is all good, that is true. Does the fact that he allows evil to exist detract from his goodness? If that was the case then why would he first create evil? Evil is a necessity in creation, and In my personal opinion evil isn't what most people think evil is.

I like this post...



First off, the God of the OT is not wrathful. Second off, the God of the OT and of the NT are two different Gods.

1) This is an old philosophical question that challenges the specifically christian description of god. It's not mine. The best I can give you is "they" say so, although I seem to remember Epicurus was the first to form the question, though clearly he wouldn't have in christian terms.

2) Yes, within the very specific limits of this argument. He lets people suffer for no discernible cause so he is either not all-beneficent or onmipotent.



Uhh... I and (presumably) the tens of thousands of people the Israelites killed for no other reason than god said to would disagree.
I mean, he admits to being jealous, so he has his bad traits.

--Jaylemurph

Ooooh....sorry, I missed the bit saying it challenged the Christian description of God.


Does the fact that you cannot see the cause mean that there isn't a cause? A baby doesn't know why its getting a vaccination when its getting a vaccination, all it knows is that it's suffering for no apparent reason.

Good answer!

No, it does not. The Bible does indeed make the case for the many benefits of living a good life; and it does state that learning to make decisions that are in line with "good" as it is defined by God will be the natural desire and byproduct of making the decision to put pride in self aside and accept God. When you decide to let something in your life you are of course immediately interested in learning more about it and want to find ways to implement it in your life because you've decided that it is something you need, right? Living a "good" life is not something that Christians decide they need to do to earn God's favor. It is the end result of recognizing the lack of good that was at the heart of their motivations before they understood that they needed God, and that they needed to put God's plans for them in effect in their lives rather than living entirely according to their own desires. It is a result of trust.

To paraphrase your statement, IMO it would be more accurate to say that the Bible says acknowledge your proud, sinful nature and live in submission to the real God rather than trying to become a god yourself in your own mind, or suffer eternal damnation which is the natural consequence of trying to put oneself above God.



We are seeing different facets of the same God in the two books. If something were perfect, it would just "be," huh? It would have no reaction to anything, because having reactions is somehow imperfect? Applying direction and using His dominion over His creation is imperfect? If God were perfect He would have the same reaction to evil as he would to good? Is that really what you want to say?

Is it possible that your problem lies with the fact that He has dominion and authority that He exercises freely over that which He chooses to in order to accomplish His goals for this creation, and not really with HOW He has implemented His authority? If a creator has authority over a creation that does not self-manage, what in your opinion would be the perfect way to manage it? And what is He doing wrong that would have to be done differently in order to be considered the doing of a perfect being? Does being perfect mean to you that a creator would have to have the same reaction no matter what He was being presented with and no matter how much it caused damage? Parents often have justifiably different reactions when presented with different actions of their children. Does that mean that there is something wrong with the parents because they exhibit different aspects of their self to their children depending on the situation?

How would a perfect, final being use authority over an imperfect environment that He created to be a work in progress? Would He allow certain processes to be carried out in order for the consequences to be a self-teaching method for those who would pay attention and learn, or is it more perfect to not allow there to be consequences so that He can be seen as being the same perfect, non-changing being all the time? What would that say of His regard for His creation that He allowed damage and chaos to run rampant and not treat those who go against His will for His creation any differently than those who obey? I would consider that imperfect.

What would be a more perfect way to carry this out, or would you consider it more perfect to simply not create anything which requires limits and action on the part of the creator since His "creative control" of his creation is questionable to you?

So you are like God, then? You seem to be assuming that because you can not discern a reason that something happened, then no reason exists. The only basis for this thought is if you assume that you are equal to God and on His level. If that were the case, I could see how if we didn't know a specific reason for an event as it relates to His plan, then that would automatically mean that there IS no reason.

Is that what you are saying?

You are qualified to state beyond a doubt that because you are not able to place the appropriate signifigance on something that happens in His creation, then the creator is likewise unable to or no such significance or purpose exists?

Do you think that He is beholden to you to explain His reasons, and if He doesn't then some offense has taken place?

The Bible says that this type of thinking stems from the pride in man, and the burning need man has to have authority and power on the level of a god. I can see how this comes about, man who begins to think in his insolence that because he has as much authority and wisome as the true God then if man doesn't deem it beneficial to the purpose of the plan, then that actually means that there is no purpose for it.

I was reading an article the other day about the work force of young people coming out of college. Many business owners were commenting that although they are educated and seem to know a lot of facts, #1 they don't have much ability to make connections and relationships between the facts nor apply critical thought to the processes at work around them, they kind of.. just know a lot of stuff and are awfully proud and smug about it while being unable to really use it when needed other than in the spoon-fed form that it was taught to them in, and #2 they think that because they have a little bit of knowledge in their heads that they would make a better boss than the boss and haughtily demand to begin in high-ranking positions, although they don't have any practical experience in running the business. They think that their IDEAS are glorious and perfect and come in with a general attitude that they should be in charge and everyone else is kind of dull and owes them a lot of respect. They're cocky and proud and believe that if they don't understand the boss's purpose for whatever strategy is being used, then the strategy is invalid and pointless because since they are just as good as the boss, if something the boss did actually made any real sense they would be able to understand it. Since it doesn't make sense, then the boss must be as dumb as they have always suspected since they stepped into the fully functioning business that the boss has been running since before they got hired.

This is the attitude that man takes when ruled by pride.

That's why pride in self and wanting godhood for oneself is what seperates us from God. It is what the enemy has been tempting us with from the beginning of this creation and we want it badly. We don't know it all but we tell ourselves that we do. In our foolishness and lust for power we will hunt it until the end of this creation, and we will sometimes be deceived that we have achieved it.

This is the beginning of evil.

That's a great quote from Epicurus, and you see it a lot.. and it's very true.

There is no reason for evil to exist under God unless God himself is evil.

In a nutshell, the Christian retort is to say that apparently God can only teach his creations by making them suffer, and he's only doing it because he "loves them".. because you know, if you beat your child when he talks back to you he probably won't do it anymore, right?

It's just preparation for your eternal zombie-like bowing down and chanting before the throne of God in heaven, I guess. But hey, you won't feel sad at least!

Good and Evil(right and wrong) are just matters of perspective and opinion. They do not truly exist. There is no universal right or wrong because if there was they would be so different from one another that we wouldn't need to debate it.

God if he exists is beyond good and evil.

No.

The response of a Christian who understands their Bible and what is laid out inside it is that when behavior and intentions of His creation are grossly outside of the parameters of what He will allow, the natural consequences of His laws are experienced. If you are operating in a state of spiritual death, which those who make a choice to live outside of His prescription for life are, and you die or are killed by Him, then you are experiencing the fruition of the spiritual state that you have made a choice to live in. How can you complain or say some wrong was done against you then? You wanted to live outside of His will, living outside of His will is living in a state of spiritual death, and you can turn your back on Him but the bad news is that you are still subject to His principles and laws, and when you are running with the devil it's only a matter of time before you're caught up with and your number's up.

If a society or individual or culture or whatever group's actions and intents have caught up with them, and they have fully realized the ends of their ways, there is no basis for complaint on their part IMO because they lived and died just the way they wanted to, outside of God's will. OOPS except for the part about still being subject to God's power over them. Well now that one doesn't always go our way, does it?

Now there are people calling themselves Christian who don't understand what they profess to have faith in, and I would steer clear of those ones if you want real answers. Of course you might not really want answers, you might only want a platform to display your contempt for God that would not change for any reason ever because you just resent His authority over you and life and the world in general. I don't know which case it may be though, only you knw that, right? One could guess from your tone but really only you know for sure the state of your heart in this matter.


But by and large the Bible says that people who choose to live outside of God's will pretty much get what they want most of their lives, well what they think they want anyway. All you really want is to live without God, right? You can if you want to, you're absolutely free to follow that path through to the end. That's what you want, right? Of course the end of that is different than the end for those who live in submission to God... but you're fully prepared to handle the consequences, right, so it shouldn't be a problem. But it is totally possible to live your life in defiance of God's authority. All good rebels understand that they are subject to the consequences thereof. Most rebles are trying to change a system that they disagree with. God won't change his system for anyone, so I hope you're still standing strong, ready to take the consequences if your gamble on God being wrong is correct.

People tend to get angry when they don't understand something. Kind of an odd quality that humans have. I would even say a quality that should be outgrown in childhood. I would be angry too if I understood so little of the Bible. If you choose to be cynical and stop understanding then you're always going to be angry. There is a way past anger but it requires openness to the idea that you might be wrong.

Eternity of what? Please tell me what kind of eternity you believe you have in store for you.

That's no excuse, if you define the margins to be restricting knowing the implications then when someone steps out of the margins and feels those implications you may as well have done it to them yourself. And then.. running with the devil? I hope you realize that I don't believe in either God or the devil.



I don't understand exactly what you're trying to say here.. God should be able to harm his people because he has power over them? So be it, but then he's not loving.



Right, because everyone knows that you are the supreme genius of interpreting the Bible, just like every other Christian is.



Do you understand what it means to be an "atheist"? I am quite positive that God has no power over my life and none over yours for that matter; I don't believe he exists. Are you trying to say I have contempt for something I find to be a work of fiction?



It's not about "what I want"; if there were a God I would want a relationship with him, sure. It's about the truth that I have realized; that there isn't one.



I don't believe those consequences exist. Once again, you need to try as hard as you can to imagine that these things are not a reality to everyone like they are to you. The Quran says you're going to Muslim hell, do you believe that's true and would you accept it if you found out Allah was real? It's the same story. I think if those consequences did exist, they would be terrible and unfair and unlike a loving being to do, but that's completely irrelevant because I know for myself that those are scare tactics and dogma to get people to join the religion and "save themselves from God".


Egh, did you think I am a Christian or something? You really don't seem to understand that I'm not interacting in any way with "god". I have no opinions on him because to me, it is very clear that he most certainly does not exist. Since I've been a very devout Christian before I do know it's hard to imagine that atheists truly don't believe in God, I used to think it wasn't possible either.. but please, just try to imagine that.

Who says I don't understand the Bible? I understand it full well, it's just a different conclusion than you came to. If you weren't being elitist, you would accept that your conclusions have no more true merit than mine, and we can respectfully disagree without anyone being "right".

I'm not angry at God, so please stop with the rhetoric. I am no more angry at God than you are at the Grinch for stealing Christmas. I am angry at Christians acting like they are God-spawns and they have better rights and higher moral standing than people of other beliefs though.

Men are being tested by God to see who will do evil and who will do good. God is allowing the evil to happen now for the testing. When Jesus returns, the test is over for a thousand years, and there will be no evil then. Every new angel allowed in heaven now, must be tested and proven true. This guarantees no more rebellion in heaven. The allowing of evil and the testing will continue till Jesus returns with an army of angels (maybe ufo aliens) to take over the world by force at the battle of armageddon.

I cannot say with certainty. Being that I am at this point a physical being, and the eternity I speak of is a spiritual one, there is no accurate analogy of what I will be doing. I cannot say what eternity will be like without the physical world. I can give you a few analogies, but nothing will come close to the truth.

All I know for certain is that it will be a place of joy, peace, love, and wonder...... and even these are words steeped in the physical realm.

I'm sorry I can't be more specific than that.

That's fine, I didn't really expect you to be more specific.
Maybe it is supposed to be a place of joy, peace, love, and wonder. But will you be yourself there?
I doubt one's identity carries over after death either way. Identity is of the physical realm.

As far as I can imagine, being a limited human, a perfect being would just 'be'. Being perfect means there is no need for anything, no want for anything, no desire for anything. Anything a perfect being creates is irrelevant because that being is perfect and has no requirement for its creation. It cannot feel anything because to feel is to want. A perfect being would not love, nor would it fear or hate. It would be neither good nor evil. It would exist within itself always. The perfect being has no need for authority for all of itself is perfect and cannot 'disobey', and because it exists within itself nothing can exist outside itself. If there was such a thing as a perfect being then everything would be perfect.

So, if God is omnipotent, if he can do anything, he should be able to grant free will AND control all actions....

And create two mountains without a valley between them and make a million angels dance on the head of a pin and tell us what sound a tree makes when no one is there to hear it fall....