I have been doing extensive research on seraphim, their origin, their purposes and their nature lately for a story/screen write I am working on and I was curious if anyone with further knowledge about the subject might be able to tell me if they have ever come across knowledge about the nature of seraphim towards humans. (I am approaching this from the standpoint that seraphim are angels from the christen text)

I know the bible states that they spoke to Ezekiel and told him to worship God, but what I want to know is:

Do seraphim have compassion, disdain or any other feelings towards the human race or were they solely for the adoration of God?

I do not think you will find much in the NT. There are works out there on Jewish Angelology. See what what you can find on the 12th century Philosopher Moses Maimonides and study that.

From my knowledge most of the informations on these guys comes from non canonical scriptures. So any information is questionable(more questionable then normal bible scripture that is).

Just a head ups...theres a 75% chance that this thread will end up being about dragons.

OY, Vey! Enuff mit dem dragons already. I think I will purposely buy a copy of Eragon and use it for tinder in my fireplace.

I can honestly say I am almost 100% sure that they weren't dragons. They had wings...yes...but that was about it. I have seen in several places that they have been refered to as taming, using or being seen with serpents because of their assosiation with fire, but they are devine beings or angels...not dragons.

I actually went back and read the other conversation that talked about seraphims and saw that several people mentioned dragons, but I didn't want to say anything because I was so new to the site.

The learned Rabbis of Alexandria, the center of learning in the classical world translated the Hebrew scriptures including the Bible into Greek. The word they translated "Seraphim" to was the Greek word "Drakones". This is historical fact. And these Rabbis knew far more about the Bible than some of the Sunday School Teacher cum hobby hebrew researchers who make their ridiculous and unsubstantiated posts here on UM.

So obviously you really don't want information about the "Biblical Seraphim" because they are indeed reptilian in form as every ANCIENT Jewish and Christian source reveals. The fiery flying serpents of Numbers are the fiery flying serpents of Isaiah. Real Hebrew speaking people know this. The Jewish Enclyclopedia, written by Hebrew Scholars know this.

What you are really asking for is not Biblical Seraphim, for the Bible says they are fiery flying serpents (as the word actually means in Hebrew), or Drakones if you use the ancient Greek translation.

But what you want are "Christian Cartoon Seraphim", with big white swan wings, harps and halos. These never existed. So you can make any whacky story you want about them. But if you want to know about the real seraphim of the Bible, and not the cartoon Seraphim of Christian Christmas cards and sunday school work books, I suggest you wait for my upcoming book on the real Biblical Seraphim, complete with many ancient christian artifacts that prove that the ancient Christians and Jews knew the Seraphim were winged reptiles.

If you seriously studied this subject you would know what I am talking aobut. Obviously you haven't. Later Christians transformed the Seraphim into swan winged humanoids because they are too arrogant to imagine the highest heavenly creatures are reptilian in form. But these Christians are too stupid to realize this is why Satan is called both a serpent and a dragon, but never an angel or human -like in form. He is a Seraphim and seraphim are winged serpent-dragons. All of the ancient evidence proves this. But human emotion is evidently more important than Biblical facts. Good luck with your cartoon.

But one historical fact you fail to mention in your post Draconic, is that the Greek Bible known as the Septuigant is rejected by Heberew Priesthood and that still stands to this day. No school that teaches Hebrew/Judaic Theology utilizes this book, it is considered heretical by the Jewish Orthodoxy.

Cade made the call!

But what you apparently don't understand is that the greatest Rabbis of the day carefully made these translations as accurately as possible. Of course Jews today don't recognize it, becasue Greek is the language of Gentiles. But in the days the Jewish Priesthood made these translation, Alexander the Great and his successors dominated Western Asia, and Alexandria was the center of learning. These Jews felt their holy scriptures should be available for the rest of the civilized world to read as well.

Archaology proves these Greek translations were just as sacred and important. I understand that one of the texts that translated Seraphim to Dracones was found in the Dead Sea Scrolls.

All of the ancient Christian and Jewish evidence proves both groups acknowledged the Seraphim as winged reptilians referred to in Greek as drakones. So what makes you think Jews and Christians of the dark ages and medieval times, when nearly all the ancient books were destroyed, knew more about the Bible than the ancient Jews and Christians who had all the suriving resources of the ancient world, including the wondrous library of Alexandria, to base their beliefs on?. You cling to ridiculous medeival beliefs becasue you are too arrogant to acknowledge what the ancient Christians and Jews believed - that the highest of heavenly servants were fiery flying serpents. Don't blame me.... blame the Bible, for that is what it really says.

Considering this is what the word means in hebrew (Seraphim - fiery and flying serpents - "dragons" it shouldn't take a genius to figure that out. (And I really don't believe you are).

But here is a better one fore you, there is a 100% chance there will be ignorant people here, who despite all of the evidence to the contrary, still think Seraphim are harp strumming, swan-winged angels with halos because thier sunday school coloring books have played such an important part in their lives.

And yes, most of the information about the "cartoon humanoid, swan-winged seraphim" does come from non-canonical sources becasue the actual Bible says they are flying serpents, and Christians are uncomfortable with that idea, so must get their "more reliable" information from nonsensical medieval angelology fairytales.

Actually... it doesn't take a genius to figure out that if someone mentions "saraphim" you'll come to that thread like a moth to a flame. However as far as geniuses go... Cade has you beat.

Now to make the post koser for the thread...

Eeeah... naa.. don't care about the abrahamic mythology enough to.

I am getting so f*ing bored with this 'Seraphim are dragons' crap. They're 'flaming Serpents who guarded Eden TwistedLittleMe, and I can't say they are especially known for their compassion. The Watchers however were.

LOL, OH, this is too much. You know I posted the thread with the one for the view on Jewish Angelology and this poor person had no idea what she was in for. I will never post another "Seraphim" thread again because in all honesty I may wet myself. Hmmmm. Maybe a "Cherabim" thread. Yeah! That's the ticket.

Seraphim...well, I can't say that I agree with alot of what some sites and texts say about them.
Though what screams out the loudest about who they are is that they don't really have human emotions/desires, or really human reactions, nor the same patterns of thought as humans either.
Their emotions are really toned down, but that doesn't mean they don't have personalities of their own, they simply have a different mental and emotional pattern than humans. Their energy may be like fire, but it seems to be due to their strength as they have to teach and lead countless younger angels and beings, determination to get things done orderly, faith to carry all the responsibilties that they are given without much hesitation, wise from all the experience they've had so that they are reliable, and compassion to care about what it is they do (though this can be mistaken as depth, wisdom, and maturity).
This is the meaning I get from the information I read about Seraphim/Angels.

Yes Ashely, the true defintion of Seraphim in Hebrew is "fiery and flying serpents". You can find this in the Jewish Encyclopedia. But the learned Jewish Rabbis of ca. the 2nd Century BC translated the unfamiliar word Seraphim to the more familar Greek word Drakones, for the Greek speaking readers. I didn't make that translation, the ancient Jewish Rabbis and Priests did when they translated Hebrew into Greek. They did this in the Bible, and they did it in your precious book of enoch. These are undeniable facts. To call this "crap" shows what a "fake" and hypocrite you really are in your supposed Jewish beliefs.

But the creatures who guarded Eden are called Cherubim. But these too, were originally depiected as winged, quadrapedal reptiles in ancient Sumerian art, and there can be no question that these stories are the origin of the Hebraic Genesis stories. But for centuries the Catholic Church still understood the turth of this, as their illuminated Bibles (intended only to be seen by Church functionaries) clearly depicts. In those verses of the Bible in which God rides on the back of an enormous Cherubim, the Chruch always depiected it as a classic medieval fire-breathing dragons.

Or do you think I crept into the vatican and a hundred other museums and painted those pictures of dragons in hundreds of medieval bibles?

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. You ought to stay out of this, or get your facts straight first. You are calling you own religious scriptures "crap" only you are to ignorant to even realize it.

Great well, I've just sent my question into a Rabbi to clarify this and I'll be posting his reply as soon as I get it.

Does it matter what the angels look like? They could look like ten legged pink elephants and it wouldn't change their purpose.

Flying dragon angels are just as silly as "harp strumming, swan winged" angels.

Here's a very special Quote Time dedicated to you dragon man:

Quote Time!
"A fanatic is someone who won't change their mind and won't change the subject"
"Cadetak is a genius"-God.

The "dragons" are not angels, and have a very different purpose. That is why there are two distinct types of heavenly creatures in the Bible that people ignorant of the scriptures have melded into one.

I agree that it should not matter "what they look like". But obviously many Christians do not think that way, which is why they have transformed the dragons into "cartoon angels". Some people are very interested why dragons appear in virrtually every religion.

The subject of the thread is the Seraphim of the Bible. There is no point to change the subject when this is the subject being discussed. Since you know nothing about it, your presence here is useless. I doubt God would claim you are a genius. Claiming so makes you the bigger fool.

First off I didn't claim myself a genius God did...your doubting the direct word of God?

The Seraphim are a special class of angels blah blah I heard it before, I'm not disputing their job or even their existence.

What's with "cartoony angels"? Thats just the way they are drawn sometimes...sometimes people draw them realistically...just like Dragons.

Disputing what the Seraphim look like is like disputing what God looks like...It doesn't matter what they look like it matters what they do. If this thread was titled "What do Seraphim look like" then the dispute would be welcomed.

For all we know the Seraphim could be shapeshifters.

I'm not disagreeing with you claims and evidence by the way...I'm just saying that every angel thread doesn't have to be about their appearences.

But this is NOT an angel thread.

The Bible is very specific that the seraphim are NOT angels. Christian mythology lumped them together with angels. The are referred to only as creatures, and the word itself means fiery fly serpents, and the ancient egyptians knew the identical creature by the identical name.

So when the subject of Seraphim are mentioned, in is not a discussion of angels it is a discussion of heavenly serpent-dragons.

By cartoon angels, if refer to the Christian tendency to give the human-like angels (who are never described as having wings), the wings of the fiery flying serpents, creating a nonsensical hybrid.

But the shape/form of the Seraphim do indeed imply what they do. Unlike angels, who are messengers, the seraphim devour people, burn and destroy things, curiously, just like the "dragons" of world-wide myth and religion.. Oh and they sing too, and in all liklihood are also the "singing dragons" in the book of psalms.

ALRIGHT!!!
As the starter of the thread...I have a few things to say and most are to draconic whatever and his long and rather obnoxious rants...

First off...I was asking about angels...so yes love, this was a thread about angels.

Second off, I was never, not even for one second, under the impression that a seraphim was a "cartoon angel" with white fluffy wings or cascaded in light...this is a lovely but ignorant point. I understand that the seraphim was associated with serpents, and fire…but at the same time, I was asking for opinions on the seraphim’s emotions, not it’s origin, and species.

In fact I would like to inform you hun, that I was worried that this would turn into a debate about species. You see I could careless if it’s a dragon or a flying supermodel, you over shot the question to fight your own personal crusade, which is sad really. So instead of answering my question and contributing to the conversation, you merely argued a mute point that had no real relevance to anything.

I would however like to thank those that actually tried to answer my question. You have my respect and thanks.


Oh and draconic…have you even looked at the bible?
The seraphim never devoured anything, they sang of gods glory and told humanity to worship him. (This is what took place in the bible, I have no religious reference)
This can be seen in more than one book and never once are they illustrated as humanoid OR dragon-like. You are truly ignorant to the seraphim outside of your little fantasies about dragons. Well maybe you turn every supernatural creature into a dragon-like figure to satisfy your obsession, but I do not share your enthusiasm so I would appreciate it if you kept your fixation to yourself, and stopped harassing those that use their time think about other things especially those that can stay ON TOPIC!!!

Actually... Seraphims throughout the ages have been portrayed as humans.. (right or wrong, Draconic, I don't rightly care)

Three sets of wings. One set to cover their eyes so they don't look at god. One for flying, and one to cover their bodies.




So I would say.. that if anything, they can change their forms. Now, to answer the whole kit and kaboodle..

Some say their origins are from the Egyptian pantheonic beings.. but I believe that's mainly because almost everything there had wings of verying forms...

Wiki actually had an intresting picture of Seraphin surrounding the divine throne.. here
Most of the descriptions I've come across have said basicaly the same thing. They are the higherarchie of angels, painted red to simbolize fire, 6 wings, and they guard the throne of god. They purpous is to also make sure people praise god, and activly try to convert those god wishes them to convert (like Saul/Paul)

No, I think you are the one who has never read the Bible. If you had you would know that seraphim are referred to as creatures, never as angels. They have nothing to do with angels. If you had used a condordance to study the original scriptures you would know that the creatures God sends to KILL the Israelites are called Seraphim in Hebrew, the same word as they are called in Isaiah. And as Moses made an image of them, and it was a winged serpent-dragon, there can be no doubt this is the actual form of the Seraphim. Everyone in Israel knows this, and call their dragon-like attack helicopters the Seraph for this very reason, complete with dragons painted on the side. And this is why there is ancient and Medieval depiections of heaven with flying serpnts and dragons surrounding God's throne, and devouring sinners.

Obviously, your study of ancient Christian art goes no further than Sunday School Coloring Books. If you want to learn the truth, you will be able to find photos of real frescoes mosaics and ivorry diptich (Bible covers) that depiect the Seraphim as Dracones or serpents, around the throne of God, and in the act of swallowing sinners that do not pass judgement in my upcoming book. These are not my fantasies. You are just so completely ignorant of the real Bible, that you cannot believe what is really therer when all of the modern, non-biblical Christian mythology is stripped away.

In the book of Enoch the Seraphim are translated to Drakones and Gabriel is placed in charge of them as the angel of fire and Vengeance. These are undoubted the same fire breathing, sharp toothed , snake tailed beasts that are supposed to kill a third of the human population in Revelation. But yes, they are probably also the "Dragons" that sing praises to God in the Book of Psalms, just as the fiery flying serpents (Seraphim) do in Isaiah.

So I did answer you question. The real Seraphim as the ancient Jews and Christians understood them, were terrifying winged serpent-dragons who sang, but also devoured sinners. I'm sorry they didn't tell you about that in Sunday School.

I believe I am the only one here that is actually "on topic", as no one else here seems to have the slightest idea what they are talking about. I didn't translate the Seraphim to Drakones. The learned Jewish Rabbis of the 2nd centrury BC did. But here we have "sunday school angel experts" who think they know more about the Bible than ancient Jewish Rabbis.

Stop calling your cartoony, swan winged angels seraphim, and there will be no point for me to comment on a thread about "cartoony swan winged angels", this this is just a bunch of nonsense that has nothing to do with the real Bible. For an angel is NOT a seraph. Anyone familar with the Bible knows this.

Ok, your bloody "sunday school" reference crap has got to end.
You no longer even amuse me.
I will repeat for you since you failed to get it the first several times:

I AT NO POINT SAID ANYTHING ABOUT A SERAPHIM LOOKING LIKE AN ANGEL!

So it would be advised that you let the notion that you're arguing a valid point go. Just let it go. I have already said I didn't care what they looked like, so you bringing it up as me wanting "a cartoon sunday school angel", just proves that you're so caught up in trying to look intelligent, that you did in fact overshoot the whole point.

However, you did manage to at least explain what you know about their behavior. You hit the mark briefly in that little ego rant. So good for you. Now that you have completed the task I asked, you may move on and allow others to say their peace without gracing them with your vast knowledge.

In other words I ask that unless pertaining to the point, and of independent thought (that means, just so you know, that your not going to make comments about the information giving to me by other people) that you keep whatever self-righteous knowledge you have, to yourself.

Thank you for what you did manage to contribute when it was on topic. Now go forth and have a nice life.

Oh thank God for TwistedLitttleMe!

And SC is right about the description and I'd say that's probablyfar older than any 'dragon' reference if there indeed are any at all which are legitimate. As for them being of Egyptian origin, that's possible too.

Dragons are reptiles in nature...they have flesh and bone. Where there is flesh and bone there is blood...and if there is blood it can be killed. This is undisputeable.

In truth God, angels, seraphim, etc. are not physical beings.

Any physical features they may have are willed by God and can be changed by God. At one time Seraphim could have had feathered wings but may have changed them into dragons.

Yes Ashely, the same creature appears in Egypt by the same name Seraph. Its heiroglyph is a winged dragon, and in Egyptian pyramid text hyms it is called a fiery serpent. This description of the seraphim predates the hebrew scriptures, though the acknowledgement that they are winged reptiles is consisitent in both ancient cultures, and still today, in modern, Hebrew-speaking Israel.

this again shows how little you know about the bible. The angels in the Bible must eat manna in heaven and food on earth. Look it up. They are physical creatures, only more or less "immortal". The same seems to be the case for the seraphim/drakones. Scriptures in Christianity, as well as other religions state these drakones consume the souls of the wicked. While we cannot prove the souls existence, if it is some kind of "energy", it seems plausible that a larger intelligent creature with therefore greater spritual energy could contain or absorb this energy. There have been some experiments conducted in this field. People who swallow small creatures alive supposedly feel invigorated by the experience. Perhaps this is the persons absorbing of the life force/spiritual energy of these tiny creatures.

New Testament angels are a different matter. They are sometimes referred to as "spirits" because like so much in the NT, they are imitated from pagan Hellenistic tradition. They are the invisible spirit daemons. Christianity added them to the faith, and the good daemons were called angels, and the bad daemons were called demons. But in the only Bible endorsed by Jesus, the angels were flesh and blood, immortal young men, that had to eat food, and sometimes had sex with normal women.

So in truth, if the Bible is correct, angels, seraphim, etc ARE physical beings. God may not be however, although in two different Bible verses he rides on the back of a huge dragon, like any other self-respecting Mesopotamian God. But I suppose a spiritual creture could still ride on the back of a physical dragon.

Considering the Hebrews wrote the OT anything that predates it is probably myth.

Happily, the Rabbi has answered me, this is his reply:

I'm sorry your Rabbi knows so little about the Bible. You probably should refer him to the Rabbis and scholars who compiled the highly respected Jewish Encyclopedia that explains that the word Seraphim originally meant fiery flying serpents, something every schoolboy in Israel knows today becasue the Apache Helicopter is called the seraph, and a heavenly dragon is even painted on the sides of them.

If you think the Bible is true, then the oder Egyptian texts that describe the same, Biblical Seraph dragons must be true as well.

If you think the book of Enoch is true, do not forget that Hebrew Rabbis called the Serpahim in that book Drakones, when the book was translated into Greek. This is historical fact.

Dear Sir/Madam:

I've never seen the swan-winged, harp-carrying, servants of God, but perhaps others (artists and common people) have..., and neither have I seen nor experienced those reptilian forms either. Frankly, angels, demons, reptilian-like supernatural beings are all the same to me in the end -- servants of God. And I agree with you that these creatures are fierce...

But my question to you is: have archeologists found physical traces of these reptilian-like creatures, not just in art works and (ancient) book descriptions? Or are they immortals too like angels/demons;therefore, no physical remains? If Seraphims/Cherumbims are immortals, is there a passage about their eternal nature in those ancient texts, excluding the OT?

Thank you for your time. I really enjoyed reading your 'chronicles.'

Nobody has seen the swan winged humanoid angels becuase they never existed. They are a figment of the imagination formed by people who misunderstood the description of the heavenly dragon servants. No angel in the Bible is described with wings. Just they opposite - they are frenquently mitaken for normal young men.

On the other hand, dragons have been reported for thousands of years by every human culture, but the stories of humans killing them is greatly exaggerated. The Bible states they cannot be harmed by any weapon of iron or bronze because of their thick scale armor. The Seraphim are the highest ranked heavenly creatures, and considered the oldest. This is probably because they are a kind of modified dinosaur or pterosaur, that existed millions of years before mankind would evolve. This is probably why there were dragons in the first place, they were the first suitable animal in the evolutionary record to be made heavenly servants.

Despite them being reported in countless tales, no bone has ever been found which strongly suggests they are immortal. After all, it is dragons that guard the trees of eternal life in various cultures, all probably derived from the original Eden story.

As for demons, this is a pagan Greek idea, as are the invisible spirit angels. Both were actually known as daemons in Greek and could be good or bad. There is almost no mention of demons in the old testament becasue Greek culture did not contaminate the Jews until Alexander the Great conquered the territory. The demons cast out by Jesus was probably just the curing of mental disease, but thought to be demons by his superstitious followers. They may have been the spirits of evil man as well, but not fallen angels, because this is part of a non-biblical Christian mythology. There are no fallen angels in the Bible Jesus endorsed.

If you like these posts, I am sure you will like the book.

You keep on saying that the human winged angels are misinterpretations but maybe just possibly it could have bin the other way around.

Aliens, Bigfoot, Zombies, Vampires, Ghosts, Werewolves, and Psychic Powers have bin "seen", reported, and documented for thousands of years...but that alone doesn't make any of them real. Just because a bone hasn't bin found doesn't make it immortal...if that where true then Bigfoot would also be immortal by your standards.

In a previous post you said that dragons where indeed a physical entity but then you said that they where immortal...for it to be a physical being it would be built for a physical world. It would have flesh, bone, blood, etc. If it has those things it can be killed. If it doesn't exist in a physical world then there is no need for it to hold a physical appearence.

I could really care less what the Seraphim look like.

Correction. 'Demons' are the spirits of the departed Nephilim, human/angelic offsring. Go read the full Testeament of Solomon. They reside in the stars, the thrones of their angelic fathers, which would make them akin to 'aliens'.

The Testament of Solomon was written during Hellenistic times. That's why it is filled with demons. You do not see these demons in the books written in the actual time of Solomon. Just look in your Bible and you will see I am right. But there are some interesting accounts of dragons who speak to Solomon in that Testament. Their description proves these dragons have arms and legs and wings, just like the Seraph-dragons described with the same appendages in Isaiah. Some Biblical concordances say the ancient Dracones are only large snakes, but these accounts prove otherwise.

Nephilim are probably man's ancient recollection of the Neanderthal race, which we know from anthropology sometimes interbred with modern man creating hybrids.

No, they are not.

Your obsession with dragons gets me to thinking what are you getting out of this? God is a jealous God, 'put no god before Me'. Keep that in mind.

Can't wait to read your book! And thank you for answering my questions.

Peace.

Draconic, I just checked the Jewish Encyclopedia and could not see anything in it you are saying about these Seraphim. In fact it seems to go against tour ideas. It states clearly they are high ranking angles and appear as men. There are even pics of them in it.

Are you blind, Moondog? Jewish enclopedia.com Fifth paragraph plainly states the "Seraphim were most probably serpents", becasue that is what the word means actually means. And before that it says they were translated to Drakones in the book of Enoch.

But like Christian ecylcopedias, they "lie" just a little by saying Isaiah gives them a human form, because they don't want to admit that the Bible says the highest heavenly creatures are reptilian. This is not true. He simply says they have a face, wings arms and legs, exactly the the Babylonian dragons that guarded the thrones of these Gods, or the dragons that decorated the sacred Menorah from the Temple. Hmmm, why dragons Moondoggy, on the most sacred temple object from that time? Answer is simple. They knew what the Seraphim and Cherubim actually looked like, and it wasn't the abominable winged human figures of pagan Greco Roman religion, which have become the Angels of Christian mythology.

I will be off the net for awhile, giving a lecture for the opening of an archaeological exhibition.

So did you read Bibleorigins? Pretty interesting wasn't it?

Guess what Ashley? Shortly after the Jews destroyed the flying serpent image which God Himself ordered Moses to make, Solomons temple and Jerusalem were destroyed and the Jews made captive in Babylon. This is why the Ark of the Covenant mysteriously disappeared as well. The Cherubim were dragons, like the Bible says, and this was destroyed at the same time as Moses flying serpent. This part was edited out when the Jews realized what blasphemy they commited.

And YOU, too, are the one blaspheming God, by blaspheming his highest servants. Jerusalem was apparenty destroyed for the same thing. Just something to think about.

This is no "dragon obsession." I'm just telling people what the Bible really says.

No cartoon. swan winged angels Ashley. Sorry.

Heaven is run by dragons. Thats what the Bible really says. Of course, many religions turn the actual scriptures into nonsense that their followers would rather believe. I think people are more comfortable with the cartoon angels than soul devouring dragons. But the proof is there for anyone to see.

didn't they crossbreed with humans and produced The Nephilim or was that a different Angel that did that... weren't the Nephilims and The Seraphims banished or am I jsut getting everything tied into a knot. I am so tired I can't think. But I know there was one breed of Angels that Seduced Female Humans to produce the Nephilims were described as Giants!

man i hope we can be a help to you.

No the sex starved angels are specifically referred to as Angels. Nowhere in the Bible does it imply Seraphim are human-like or even that they are angels. They are referred to as Creatures, Seraphim or Dragons (singing praises in Psalms.) As their name implies in Hebrew, (and Egyptian), the Seraphim are serpent like, and the Jewish Rabbis and scholars translated them to the Greek word Drakones, which is where the word Dragon comes from. The earliest christians acknowledged they were flying serpents/drakones as well, but gradually turned them into replicas of Pagan Roman Winged Gods, as in ROMAN Catholic. Interestingly, however, the greatest minds of the Church continued to acknowledge they were Drakones as is revealed by their writings, intended for only other Church officials. There are legends of dragons residing in the Vatican, and devouring heretic prisoners furnished by the Pope.

Sex-starved angels? WTF? Yes, they married women, yes they obviously had sex but sex-starved is definantly NOT a apt description of them

Cherubim are NOT dragons, nor are they Seraphim, Seraphim are an entirely different order of Angels. Yes, angels. Cherumbim have 4 FACES one an ox representing Taurus, one a lion for Leo, one an eagle for Scorpio and one a man for Aquarius. Get your facts straight.

I've shown you the reply from the Rabbi, Seraphim are NOT dragons and all this 'evidence' you go on about doesn't even exist. Get over it. And both Seraphim AND Cherubim ARE indeed ANGELS.

And you keep claiming that a Greek version of Enoch has the word 'drakones' in it. As I recall there is NO reference to Seraphim whatsoever other than flaming serpents in the NETHER REGIONS, not with God who are angels of punishment and have eyes of fire and it does not state they are Seraphim. That aside the original text is in ETHIOPIAN, not Greek.

And encyclopedias don't 'lie' you really are grasping at straws.

Niphiliem,

The order of angels was the Grigori/Watchers/Irin Qaddism. They are one of the highest ranking angels in Heaven, so much so that God did NOTHING without first consulting them.

EDIT: It should have said Cherubim are not dragons.

Well, to be frank this is the first year I needed glasses. I will double check the 5th paragraph. I agree the bible origins has a lot of interesting stuff.

The part I found was under Babylonian origins. They reference work done by Fredrick Delitzsch, but he is saying the idea is that they were Serefs which are half lion and half eagle looking beings. But the the paragraphs that cite Jewish Angelolgy do seem to support they are in the order of Angels. The Jews did not cannonize the book of Enoch either for whatever reason. Do you know if there is a Hebrew text of it or is it available only in Greek? Because the word Drakones is greek and I would be interested to see what the Hebrew would be.? They did not say much about Delitzsch's work, so it would be interesting to read some. Like Moses Maimonides they reference a fragment of stuff, but you have to go to other sources for more detail.

Why do you keep taking him insulting you Moondoggy?

Well Ashley, I guess in all fairness I gave him a few early too. Hey Ashley, I read the Jewish encyclopedia he said that supports his view of Seraphim, I did not see that other than some reference that was in the Babylonian origin section, but the Jewish Angelology completed refuted his concept. I was wondering if you would also double check it, just so that we are not relying on my poor eyesight here? Thanks. It is online under Jewish Encyclopedia, then just search "Seraphim" and it takes you right to it. Thanks again.

actually now that i am not tired i realized what i said was wrong lol sorry i don't read the bible, i only work on the book or revelation and i just forgot about the seraphim and the Nephilims. i think i kinda remember some things. I was asking questions cause i really didn't know. But thanks for the heads up there. i knew i was wrong with something. I got the seraphims mixed up.

You are not reading it right, Moondoggy. The article writer is admitting that the "third explanation" is the most plausible because the word Saraph unquestionably refers to a Reptilian/serpent like creature in the Hebrew language. This is still common knowledge among the native Hebrew speakers in Israel, as I mentioned about the helicopters with dragons on them, and why we know the creatures that attack the Israelites were serpents, and why there was a brazen serpent. The same word Seraph is a noun, the name of an actual creature. People who dont like the idea of reptilian Heavenly creatures try use use a verb of what the dragons do, burn things, to somehow change the fact that all ancient Jews and Christians understood the creatures were winged reptiles, exactly like their earliest origins in Sumeria, where the Eden story, flood story, etc. all came from. All of the archaeological evidence and all of the ancient Christian and Jewish scrptures support what I am saying. The only thing that supports your idea is medievial angelology texts.

The writers are only providing bits to confuse the readers. The hieroglyph of the Egyptian Serref, is tiny and stylistic. It could by a lion-eagle gryphon, but even ancient gryphons had reptilian characteristic, such as belly scutes and a spined back. But the tiny hieroglyph could just as easily be interpreted as a near eastern winged dragon, exactly like those who guard the throne and are ridden on by Gods, both described in the Bible as well . But the absolute proof comes in the ancient egyptian pyramid hyms which plainly call the Seraph a fiery serpent, EXACTY like the TRUE MEANING of the word Serpah in Hebrew. ALL of the ancient evidence supports what I am saying Moondog. I find it incredible that you continue trying to dispute this when not a SINGLE ANCIENT SOURCE supports what you are saying...... just medieval Jewish and Christian wishful thinking by people who didn't like the idea of dragons being the highest heavenly servants.

As for Enoch, even though it was accepted for centuries by Christianity, and parts of the New Testament are copied verbatim from it, the only point I am making is that in the time of Jesus, when is was accepted by BOTH Jews and Christians, , it was translated into Greek by Jewish Rabbis. And when translated the word Seraphim was translated to Drakones because everyone understood that the seraphim were winged reptilian creatures. This is still understood in Israel today because the people speak Hebrew. Modern Christians pervert the scriptures to suit their sensisbilities that heavely servants should now be beautifful swan winged humanoids of greco Roman pagan theology, instead of the ancient Sumerian-Hebraic Mushushu guardian dragons of sacred groves and heavenly thrones in the real Bible.