Nihilism as Philosophy

Nihilism is a rejection of philosophy and the metaphysical nebulae such reasoning inevitably descends into. Yet if one wants this out of nihilism they can construct it, even more so than other idea sets, but to do so only leads to paradox and contradiction like finding value in no-values or a literal belief in nothing; try the disbelief in gravity for instance. Nihilism is not absolutist voiding of values to create an imaginary milieu neutered of good or evil, up or down because those are absurd situations, indeed idealistic situations that are both impossible to achieve and dangerously delusional as goals. Unfortunately some nihilists get caught in this dim labyrinth of ethics and morality. Others jump head first into the maw as a demonstration of supposed mental prowess which explains existential nihilism's effervescent popularity among certain academics and similar insulated atoms of fantasy. Nihilism is the destruction of philosophy not the magnification of it! Reference Nietzsche's philosophy with a sledgehammer.

This existentialism is superfluous since such constructs are wholly elastic anyhow, they can and do mean whatever the proponent claims generating the same foggy haze of intellectual opacity nihilism disperses. In other words it's myth creation, although that doesn't render them insignificant or impotent in the mind of the public, myths have value for those that believe in them. The nihilists can't simply ignore the myth believers or the myths, instead the wise path is to seek understanding. Nihilism dissolves myth with the acid of reason and logic to illuminate their assumptions and underpinning structures to better understand and better act.

Nihilism challenges the assumptions supporting common values such as 'equality'; 'pity', 'justice', etc. But also terms of conclusion about human existence such as "meaningless", "pointless" and "futile" are equally flawed because their definitions stem from the original morality values that have hitherto been rejected. Simple example - 'justice'. In court its not whether one is guilty or not but how good a lawyer one has, how cogent the presented argument is and how well manipulated the jury and judge are, did somebody say justice - oh maybe not! 'Justice' is the confusing legalese that your high-priced barrister can spew in the courtroom like an oil slick in front of a pursuing vehicle. The rich go free while the poor go to prison. Why? Find out on the next page Nihilism in Action!

Nihilism is a consequence of the personal realization that all of modern values and morals are wholly false and unworkable the ultimate esteem with which these morals have been uplifted leads to catastrophic withdrawal to the opposite extreme when they're realized to be deception.

Values and their changes are related to increases in the power of those positing the values. The measure of unbelief of permitted 'freedom of the spirit' as an expression of an increase in power. "Nihilism [is] an ideal of the spirit, the over-richest life-party destructive, partly ironic." -Nietzsche, The Will to Power, #14

While an acceptance of nihilism immediately returns a perspective of utter futility for life and universal existence, this perspective is not the final resolution. "Nihilism represents a pathological transition phase..." ibid., #13. Existence is not futile simply because the edifice of modern morality is inherently dysfunctional. Actually existence has even more purpose now because a proper perspective has been attained and a reason is [finally] clear - the complete destruction of the debasing, theologically derived moral order. Thus the nihilist is at base a creator of the highest magnitude and a survivor of the most intense metaphysical struggle of all time. The nihilist undergoes a personal evolution and has proven themselves the mental superiors to the herd and mob, they have proven their will and 'license' for continued existence and have successfully escaped from the circus of values. Once the transvaluation of values is complete an entirely new and sane perspective is achieved.

The contradiction being that a nihilist does believe that their belief holds some value.

I've never really investigated Nihilism, but after reading through the article, it seems that Nihilism is a parody of sorts. A satire that crtiques the whole of mankinds beliefs. Like Superman and Bizzaro.

Here's a good FAQ on Nihilism:
http://www.nihilists.net/faqs.html

Excellent. Thank you for adding that link.

Did you check the source link to the OP? It's part of a larger piece. I thought the philosophical view would be a nice intro as I'm new to this subject as well.

From Website


This paragraph seems to resonate my original staement that Nihilism is a parody or satire of present belief systems.

If we were to ask what spawned Nihilism the answer would be that Nihilism is a result of mankind's ideological constructs,that the very belief systems spawned a disbelief system.

Nihilism may very well be the Yin to the Yang of todays systems. The shadow that sprawls out behind a sun basked idol.

I agree very much that life cannot be controled by answers concocted by man, and the best way to prepare for the future (if possible) is to simply deal with the here and now from within our own individual ideals.

Organized belief systems have created such a disdain among alot of people where as Nihilism is the "screw you" of ideological systems. A "Take this Job and Shove it" type attitude is what the masses must do in order to break the restraints of organized religion.

Nihilism says it is not spiritual but yet the deatching of all points of view including the point of view o fhaving no point of view has it's origins in Hinduism and who knows what other religions as one buddhist describes what enlightenment is:The relinquishing of all views leads to emptiness but if emptiness is the view, then you have achieved nothing. --Nagarjuna

Whoops replied in the wrong thread lol.

As I said, I'm new to this philosophy, but I would agree it has the undertone of parody to theism and/or dogmatic philosophies. I've never known a nihilist, but I'd like to get input if there was someone on board that subscribed to this ideology.


This is taken from the OP site link:


Nihilism FAQNihilism is NOT the 'belief in nothing'.
Nihilism IS skepticism coupled with reduction, and furthermore it is the realization that there is/are no:

1. teleology
2. wrong or right - just cause and effect
3. sacred principles, along with taboo, heresy and blasphemy.

... and that:
4. artificial morality and values are subjective, elastic, fungible and impermanent
5. that which is self-evident requires no belief, for it has an independent, objective existence and self-continuation.

While Nihilism rejects:
6. faith, and everything necessitated by it.

And Nihilism uses:
7. Occam's Razor
8. logic

While recognizing:
9. natural selection
10. sustainable idea-sets have minimized internal contradictions.

Furthermore even if it can be shown that one element has flaws this does not demonstrate that any or all of the remaining points are flawed as well.

5) Self-Evident. For example, one does not need faith in the objective principle or the word-symbol 'gravity' to know that if you jump off a cliff you will fall to the bottom, or that if you punch a wall it will hurt your fist. This concept segues into the idea of pain and sensations which although they can be distorted, they are still consistent and these neurological signals are the same throughout the animal kingdom. A needless fixation on the basic chemical and electrical properties (or beyond) does not invalidate the fundamental purpose they serve for the biological organism.

9) Natural Selection. One path is selected over another for a reason. "Natural selection is a mechanism for generating an exceedingly high degree of improbability." R. A. Fisher. Nor through divine guidance since this is unsupported by any evidence and rejected using the principle of Occam's Razor. Rather natural selection outcome is a product of surroundings and the unceasing struggle of adaptation and the search for success. This process should not be confused with a value, which is an arbitrary choice by a human mind such as saying the color blue is better than the color purple. Whatever mind-games the philosophers want to play, one can debate where it leads and why, but none of that matters. Occam's Razor again - because natural selection reflects the framework that not only we as biological entities exist within but the entire universe operates upon that principle as a result of being a finite system. Everything either succeeds or it fails.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What if I don't agree with everything? Within any set of ideas exists a reasonable allowance for dissent. In other words to be a nihilist you don't have to agree with every single detail merely the basic tenets.

Basic tenets: Nihilism is the refutation of God, the refutation of morality, refutation of law, refutation of justice, and the refutation of all artificial order. Furthermore I carefully chose the word 'refutation' because it means illuminating them as false and erroneous. This as opposed to say 'disbelief' meaning refusal to believe, although non-belief could be more appropriate. All that is happening at minimum is merely illuminating the assumptions and false underpinnings of what is commonly taken for granted such as the anti-logic of religion and the injustice of modern-justice. Think of nihilism as a form of reductionism.

What is nihilism? A purified definition of nihilism is reduction to that which is ineluctable, which is a short way of saying that nihilism is about dealing with those elements and facts that cannot be avoided, vitiated or abrogated while accepting that all else is shades of myth or fantasy. Nihilism is an understanding of what morality is. Where good and evil come from and the power of those forces. Morality defines everyone's actions, it defines the legal structure that punishes, the limitations on our thoughts and ideas, the range of response to any given situation. Think of why they have too many cattle in India and the concomitant range of disease and starvation.

Who are the nihilists? Technically anyone who follows and understands the tenets of nihilism. At present mostly it's an informal, often individualistic expression largely due to widespread misunderstanding, public misconceptions or simply lack of awareness. However that will change, starting here.

What's the difference between nihilism and anarchism? Anarchism is against government, the idea being that all government is repressive and should be abolished. To a nihilist government is just a symptom, it's the icing on the cake, it's secondary, no tertiary, to what really matters. If all one is concerned with is tyrannical rule, if that's all you want to solve, go for it but you won't ever make any permanent change because you're pulling up the weeds and leaving the roots in the ground. Nihilism is fundamentally much more significant because it strikes at the roots it strikes at morality.

What's the difference between nihilism and atheism? Atheism is a personal answer to unverifiable theological and mystical issues and by definition is limited in this regard as a broader ideology and certainly, I posit, as a weltanschauung.

Do you have to be an atheist to be an nihilist? No because basal nihilism, the emotion and introspective reasoning characteristic of what's broadly termed social nihilism plagues disparate groups to include the religious and the atheist alike. So to be succinct an atheist is not (necessarily) a nihilist but most nihilists would be correctly termed atheistic (among other things).

Isn't nihilism just an excuse for hedonism? No. Nihilism is rejection of guilt, the moral nose ring, because it fuels environmental theologies and an endless series of self-abasement ideologies. Nihilism is dropping guilt and becoming human; it's the acceptance of instinct that minimizes mental illness and repressed aggression. Ultimately the choice of hedonism is open but nature has an uncanny ability to punish the foolish, then neighbors will find a way to deliver comeuppance to the rest compelled to flaunt the limits of reasonable behavior. You may be able to do anything you want but that doesn't mean you necessarily should. Besides, hedonism is unhealthy because it's slavery to compulsion. Likewise it's acutely obvious as the population gets fatter and weaker that imbalanced pleasure is just postponed pain. So understanding cause and effect within our biological limitations and defining appropriate conduct is a reflection of self-respect and sanity. And pleasure is a biologically evolved response to certain behaviour and stimuli, that genetic imperative which is the real owner of the human soul. News flash: your MTV rebel is just a deluded slave.

Isn't this just another revolution? Revolution in the traditional sense does nothing more than repeat the failures of the past; this plan is to avoid those same mistakes. What is commonly called revolution is a ruse designed to dupe the people into releasing pent up anger in officially approved directions usually against themselves or against the few people smart enough to actually change things for the better - just ask those 'revolutionary' Communists, or more accurately study what they've done. But contemporary language has serious limitations on the ability to express proper nihilistic meaning; the desire is for more than revolution because the intention is to circumvent the cycles of history.

"I don't think this web site is really nihilistic because the definition I've read states everything is meaningless, life is futile and nothing can be known."
1. Most of this confusion originates from overly simplistic definitions written by non-nihilists who have little interest in nihilism itself and no desire to make it internally consistent or functional. That is a problem with many dictionaries and why the better ones have more than one definition. Nevertheless, to grasp nihilism one can't stop at the dictionary! I think it's a wise reminder at this point that just because someone says something doesn't make it factual and just because many, even a majority of people, believe something that doesn't make it real. Determining fact from fiction is a much more challenging process than merely accepting or rejecting idle statements; the most effective decisions are based upon experience.


Out of context but to the point, I think: What is the successful end-state for Nihilism? / What happens when Nihilism wins? Nihilism doesn’t necessarily have any end-state except perhaps when it finally leads to something greater, like a stepping stone to be superseded. So it’s not really an issue of winning in the traditional sense of things, there’s no final victor because life isn’t like that. Dwelling on the hypothetical end-state of Nihilism may cause people to miss the significance of the process for by expanding and interjecting the ‘extreme’ position into the mainstream it makes reaching a functional and factual conclusion on the part of the public far more likely to occur. It’s about influencing the center of mass by expanding the poles of debate. For example think of the long-shot candidates that enter an election not with the realistic intent of getting the most votes but rather to influence the debate and compel the public to address their issues of concern when they would otherwise be ignored and swept under the rug by the dominant political parties (More @ Link)

Ooh ooh ooh me me me!! Sorry for the delay in reply but I dont normally get the chance to post on weekends, too much nihilism not enough time I guess. Now what exactly was I up to, you know me well enough to know I cant discuss these types of things on the public forum lol.

So what can I say about nihilism, well I'm better at answering questions most of the time, but I really liked this line...

Lately, as in the past few weeks, I have been preoccupied with what I feel is the root of religion and I dare say even spirituality. Now its self-evident that I'd love to kick God in the head and watch religion crumble to pieces, pieces small enough that I could jump up and down on them until theres nothing left lol but even non-theistic spirituality? Sure why not, I have recently come to the conclusion that even many spiritual beliefs are guilty of the same crime, that of teaching that we are somehow inferior from the start. Now some, many I hope, may disagree with what I say and I welcome any polite discussion, passionate debate or even, my personal favourite, throwing **** at me.

To insure that religion has a "need" in our lives, they teach that we are somehow less, inferior, stained by something from the beginning. Whether it be sin, living up to Gods standards or body thetans lol religion tells us we need to fix or heal ourselves and guess what they just happen to have the cure, who'd have guessed lol. They say you are broken and then tell you they can fix you. But even many beliefs that fall under the category of spirituality have recently entered my crosshairs, whether it be enlightenment, escape from reincarnation or achieving some higher level they teach that we are in need of something and either they have that something or they have the way to that something. In my opinion it is no different than religion. Basically they teach that we are slaves and they have the key to our freedom but what if you dont accept that you are a slave? Are you already free?

After contemplating this, the term "religious tolerance" came to mind. The tolerance of believing that another religious/spiritual beliefs are valid too, the tolerance of one believer to accept anothers beliefs, I laughed to myself because it sounded to me like saying I am tolerant of your slavery too lol. I wondered if this tolerance, perhaps subconsciously, is willing to accept anothers beliefs as long as they too feel in need of something and as long as they go somewhere to find "it" its ok with them, as long as it doesnt negate the need for this something, the construct of being born less, inferior.

I then remembered the concept that came to me, that I posted under the title "Reversing the Flow", in short why does religion/spirituality teach us we need to strive to go somewhere, or escape something. Instead of trying to achieve some level of higher spirituality so we can leave Earth and go to Heaven or escape the cycle of reincarnation why dont we reverse the flow and bring it here while we are here. Contemplating that concept I came to the conclusion that I dont want to go anywhere, I would rather stay here. Telling me I need(theres that word again) to do something so I can go somewhere, I dont think so. I feel the thought I mentioned earlier about being taught we are born less and in need of something(slaves) goes hand in hand with the ealier thought I had that we are taught if we achieve this something we escape(freedom) this prison(that they taught us into). It may have been backwards but working backwards is in my opinion the best way to get to the root and understand as many layers as possible.

So basically I feel we enter ourselves into slavery and then strive to achieve our freedom, that we willfully gave up in the first place. Contemplating this, the term 'Spiritual Masturbation' came to mind lol.

I now reject enlightenment as much as I reject sin.



I dont think I'm sane yet, at least I hope not lol.

I gained nothing at all from supreme enlightenment, and for that very reason it is called supreme enlightenment. ---Buddha



The relinquishing of all views leads to emptiness but if emptiness is the view, then you have achieved nothing. --Nagarjuna

Wouldn't this latter quote include rejecting the concept of enlightenment and sin???? Gotta love buddhism.

Well, if not love then it's certainly a qualifier for like, by a larger margin than the other philosophies! See, as long as it's mortal in any respect, it's bound to get whacked by ego, somehow. Case in point, Buddhism. A fat Indian man says everything is an illusion. Now a pudgy bald man is said to be the embodiment of that fat Indian mans spirit, and he wears silk, rides in chauffeured cars, hob knobs with celebrities and was exiled to a gold and marble palace in Tibet that stands on a mountain surveying the lands of the poor and starving population below in it's shadow. It helps to claim all is an illusion, when one sits enthroned at the highest peak but fails to realize they are living proof, first and foremost, that life is perspective.

I have much respect for Buddhism but in my opinion it is still flawed.

What do Buddhists wish to achieve from enlightenment? If its nothing, they sure spend a lot of time and energy striving for it.

Or is it mearly to live a good life? If so whos definition of good?

Of course Buddhism is flawed because buddhism is a concept and according to buddhism to be trapped in by a concept no matter how noble it is will always be a barrier between you and truth. Hence the quote: The relinquishing of all views leads to emptiness but if emptiness is the view, then you have achieved nothing. --Nagarjuna

To fully understand Buddhism which I certianly don't one must be rid of all concept including the concept of being free from concepts. A state of mind which can be apprehended but never described because all words derive their meaning from concept.

And the reason why buddha desribes supreme enlightenment as "a gaining of nothing" is because enlightenment is nothing new. Enlightenment is knowing the true self which is eternal and if knowing your eternal self is something new to be gained then it can't be eternal. We are always the eternal self wheher we are conscious of it or not. It is in all things whether animate or inanimate. It is very absract and paradoxical. Paradoxical always when trying to explain it via concepts or words because it is beyond all words and concepts yet included with them all.

When Enlightenment is perfected, a Bodhisattva (an enlightened one) is free from the bondage of things, but does not seek to be delivered from things. Samsara ( the world of becoming) is not hated by him, nor is Nirvana loved. When perfect Enlightenment shines, it is neither bondage nor deliverance.

----Prunabuddha-sutra

Apparently The real Buddha wasn't fat. And Apparently he underwent six years of asceticism (body torture and fasting for religious purposes) before he found enlightenment so he would of been far from fat and pudgy. HAHAHAHAHA But I can't really say cause I wasn't there. Even if he was fat and pudgy then at least he aquired heaps of wisdom for us to share.

It seems like buddhism is about letting go of everything including the ego, and nihilism is letting go of everything except the ego.

Letting go of all personal responsibility and then claiming this puts you above the herd is itself a flawed belief system verging on a self deluding con trick.

Very well put!@!

Apparently? I'm going by all the effigies and icons dedicated to Siddhartha Buddha that depict a fat man as such, so as to represent the metaphor for a largeness of the soul, contained within. (Chakra placement here, in relation to the solar plexus/stomach area)


edit image resizing

It depends on the culture that produced the statue as to the form it takes. Certain figures of Gautama have an occipital(sp?) bump rather than girth (For example Thai reclining Buddhas are often quite thin). For years I thought it was a hairstyle, but later I found out that it was a symbolic cranial deformity representing his "enlightened" state.

Funny thing is (I didn't remember this when we were discussing how reverence of Gautama appears as deification) there are very specific measurements involved in constructing a likeness of Gautama. The body style doesn't matter, it's the face.

I did not know that about the occipital lobe. I love the study of Semiology. If I had time to do college, I think I'd minor in philosophy. Fascinating that we are a visually biased society and yet there are so many messages invested in signs and symbols we take for granted otherwise.

It may appear that way, viewing nihilism as the stereotypical nihilism that its critics throw around but as Goddess' sig says "There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." Nihilism isnt about ignoring consequences, its about understanding the illusion of things, not ignoring them. Lets take personal responsibilty for instance; I choose to do as I please, if I were to give money to a homeless person its because I want to not because I think it will make me a good person. If I chose to steal money from someone I wouldnt do it because I think it will make me a bad person but because I wanted to. But even though, as the original post mentioned, the justice system is a scam(the rich get off while the poor get sent off), I recognize it does still exist and if I steal from someone I could go to jail and if I am in jail my ability to do as I please is significantly lessened, so I choose to follow the law, even though in many cases I see the utter hypocrisy of it, becuase I am looking out for myself.

But in many cases people do things in terms of right and wrong, good and bad not because they choose to or choose not to. They see the law as being there to protect them when in reality it is there to enforce a concept and morality someone else came up with, without asking you, without any care that in many cases people just dont agree with it. And then there are the people using the law to enforce another false concept, religion. People that want to see abortion be illegal because their religious "morals" want it that way even though not everyone agrees with their "morality". Is abortion wrong? To you or everyone? Should a religious man be able to tell a non-religious female what she can do with her body? Its all perspective, its not absolute.

People need to stop trying to push their perspectives on others, they arent absolutes. Not everyone believes what they believe, not everyone is culturally from where they are from. Many people trick themselves, or are tricked, into believing the whole world abides by their sense of right and wrong but it just isnt that way. As I mentioned last week, many people is some countries eat dog, many people in other countries see it as very wrong but culturally they arent doing anything wrong eating dog. But people say, ya but they eat dogs I love dogs, well guess what go to India where cows are revered and now these same people are the "dog eaters", how does it feel?

In many instances it only takes a relatively short flight to a different country to realize there are no absolutes, morals change, laws change, things are different because people set the standards, they did not exist until people made them up and if people made them up they are only as real as the belief in them.

Murder is bad until you go to war for your government, another false concept, and then you are not only good but a hero. Then you find out your government was lying to you but you say to yourself you were only doing your job, what you were told, anything to rationalize the responsibility away. Nihilism dont ignore responsibility, the average person does passing the blame onto concepts that they chose to believe in. My personal favourite, when people dont agree with homosexuality because their religion told them its wrong, but when confronted the only excuse they have that holds up for their belief that it is wrong is their religious viewpoint. There is nothing wrong with it except someone told them it is wrong.

Those who dont take responsibility for their own words and actions tend to be the ones accusing others of doing that very same thing, a signal, warning sign that there are false concepts behind it. May I ask what you believe in? Who chooses your morals?

nihilism and zen are very similar in concept. The main difference is that a knowledgable nihilist uses far more words than a zen master.

I think also that it isn't too far fetched to say that there is an intuitive sense of what is right and wrong according to each situation, not that i am trying to make an absolute out of this but we do have a conscience. Like one person put it: wisdom is knowing the difference between right and wrong when there is no right and wrong.

I one hundred percent agree that no one should ever impose their views on others but if religion brings one happiness then why not go with it?? Religion by the way doesn't always imply an organized belief system. It can be put as one's relationship with the world. Leo Toldstoy (Allah bless him) puts it best:

What am I? A part of the infinite. It is indeed in these words that the whole problem lies.... And the cause of everything is that which we call God. To know God and to live is the same thing. God is Life... True religion is that relationship, in accordance with reason and knowledge, which man establishes with the infinite world around him, and which binds his life to that infinity and guides his actions .. and leads to the practical rules of the law: do to others as you would have them do unto you. (Leo Tolstoy, Confessions)

The reason why Buddhism will always have it over Nilihism is because of this: Buddha left behind an eightfold path for everyone who is willing to follow and experiment and see enlightenment for itself. Nihilism is more ego embracing and that brings people no fulfillment. Sure people get an ego rush but it is gone as soon as it comes. All people in the last analysis want lasting peace which buddhism at least has to offer. Alot of people actually end up turning to religion or to be more liberal sounding: turn to spiritual paths because ego pleasure doesn't bring enough fulfillment. I can't say this for everyone and you yourself seem to have found it to some degree, but one can be extremely questioning when it comes to organized religions and it's motives and at the same time have a clean faith, since faith is between oneself and one's maker.


"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." If everyone lived by this we would have a peaceful world. But unfortunately most people "wanna do what they damn well please" without any responsibility. Nihilism says that because taking responsibility for one's actions is an established view one can reject this ideology. Buddhism insists and empahsizes over and over that one must always be compassionate and if not that to take responsibility for one's actions.

And on the record I agree with abortion and agree that homosexuals should have unequivical equal rights as "straights".

I think without this we are lost for inner character building and that is this notion of education which Aldous Huxley puts so eloquently: The most valuable of all education is the ability to make yourself do the thing you have to do, when it has to be done, whether you like it or not.

And this goes with :"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences."

Buddha showed us suffering but he also showed us how to put an end to suffering.

But yes I agree with you when you say we must constantly question organized religion and society in general when it tries to lay down moral policy. Muhammad (Allah bless him) himself says: Asking questions is half of learning.

Anyway Im done raving like a fool.

Well we have stereotypical nihilism as we have stereotypical christians/muslims/jews etc they all have an inherent value but they are all inherently flawed, most belief systems struggle with this dichotomy it’s why we tend, if we are reasonable, to temper our beliefs with a subjective eye rather than following it’s tenets to the letter. Doing as you please and accepting the consequences may, on the face of it, appeal until what you please to do and take the consequences of is to go out and gun down a street full of innocent people, that’s an extreme example but take a more everyday, mundane example, the person who enjoys making other people’s lives a misery in a variety of minor ways and fully accepts the contempt and dislike of those around him, he’s choosing to opt out using an immature applications of this philosophy as much as a christian who uses his belief to persecute his homosexual neighbour. In both cases there is an unwillingness or inability to challenge or question their actions and grow. In my opinion, and it may only be my opinion, this is the failure of self responsibility.




I don’t see self interest as hypocritical, rather a perfectly understandable human impulse, just because the law-like everything-is flawed and imperfect it does not make self interest morally or ethically untenable but again it’s not an absolute, taken to it’s extreme it becomes something more hypocritical and destructive.

I agree it’s not an absolute but those who champion nihilism as the answer or the nearest we have, fail to see that that pathway too is as riddled with interpretation, indulgence, ego and delusion as any other.



I agree totally, that is why we can only champion the benefits of any belief or lifestyle in terms of how it applies to me or you, not enforce it upon the rest of the world but this has to be with the understanding that these beliefs are tempered so they do not clash with the rights of others This goes for nihilism as much as any other philosophy/religion/lifestyle.

I remember Peace Pilgrim said, the more you have the more you have to worry about. If one sits and quiets their mind, taking a personal inventory of everything they believe, on every level of their life. Career, personal, spiritual, morally, etc... And then think or even write those things down, in order of importance, it is shocking how much there is to live up to.

It's like when you move. You never know just how much stuff you've collected over the years, until it all has to be organized, wrapped and stored away into boxes. A lifetime of all the collectibles, all those seemingly important things, relegated to inventory stacked in the back of a truck.

As I learn more of the Nihilist point of view, I see it as something that doesn't abdicate allegiance to standards of social morality or responsibilities. But rather as a challenge to take stock, to compile a personal inventory of what it is one holds in faith, as opposed to what one holds responsibility for.

I think we create institutions of thought, so we can have some ideology or morality that we can claim to follow, so that later, if things go bad, we can say we were influenced to be so, or do that, by that thing we give credit for imparting to us our standards of behavior. Their safety nets of sorts, those allusions that society puts forth, making us feel as if we have to belong somewhere or to some thing, for guidance in being ourselves, so as to fit in with the herd.

Whereas Nihilism says those institutions are no more credible than any one might define for themselves alone. It's like living in the raw, as I see it. Not following, so much as leading with the chin, knowing full well one gets what they give, by their own choice of action alone. No devils compel, no mob mentality that affects reticent compliance, holds dominion over one's free living. Finding the truth in one's self and knowing that for what it is, prioritizing personal responsibility, as it were. I think it's a strong will to face ones self naked for all they are and believe, without compromise to what is expected or implied , from others. One brings themselves where ever they go, as they say. So while the more one has the more they have to worry about, is true I think, the more one believes in articles and institutions that define one's self, the more invested their sense of self is in living up what that means, so as to fit in. Nihilists clearly don't care to do that. But yet they do, from my reading thus far, recognize that they are part of the larger picture and no matter what they do, the larger picture will do it's thing in response. And a nihilist is willing to face that, head on. No screens, no filters, no excuses. That's bold, in this world. I can respect that.

cant stay quiet much longer.... i am zen master... nope i need to... SPEAK! LOL

So I read the replies, I even wrote my reply. Looking at it I saw it was another pretty long post, had a lot to say, some rebuttals, some disgreement, some clarification, kept looking at it and said **** it, select all delete *poof* gone. A lot of work gone to waste?.... Or doing exactly what I wanted? Indeed, I feel no loss for it.

If you dont like the way nihilism sounds to you, then read some more on it or forget it altogether, matters little to me.

If it seems unfulfilling, egotistical or destructive to you thats fine with me.

If it seems like just another flawed philosophy thats cool too, it is. But when a nihilist deconstructs nihilism with a sledgehammer and recognizes it is also faulty it should be of no surprise to them its part of its philosophy that philosophy is flawed, keep it or discard it we keep hacking away at the world around us under the name of nihilism or not.

I recently left a group and archteypal belief I held for some time, its was fun and all but after reanalyzing it I recognized it had nothing to offer me because I seek nothing. I am not a slave I do not seek freedom, I am not a sinner I do not seek salvation, I am not less I do not seek to be more, I am not ignorant I do not seek enlightenment, I am not weak I do not seek strength. Nothing has anything to offer me except that which offers me nothing. I'm willing to drop it all and it does not frighten me or make me feel at a loss. There isnt anything more satisfying for me than going back to nothing.

Hah! I owe you a beer Eleleth.

Sounds good to me rev r

Just warning you however beer makes me a little gassy and I prefer my beer with dancing ladies lol.

But to clarify it is in itself creating an institution of thought. And how can we truly seperate what we believe from the myriad, subtle and complex influences which affect belief, either through societal mores or personal preference, like and dislike. How can you truly seperate the individual from his environment, take a belief and strip it down until it is totally and intrinically 'of that person'. I wonder whether it takes strong will or, more correctly, a complete submersion and surrender to subconscious needs and impulses and I suspect, if that were the case, that it would be a very chaotic, disordered and disabling path rather than truly enabling. In all truth I think the most honest response is to say I haven't got a bloody clue, accept it and make as good a fist of things as you possibly can.



I can respect that too until it is extended to the aforementioned gunman or anti social misfit, then it becomes a tool for the weak and self abrogating.
I'm not singling out this one idealogy over any others, the good, loving and humble man and the bigoted egotistical intolerant bully can both be drawn to christianity because each can find an outlet for their impulses in the one belief system, likewise the enlightened, honest and centred rub shoulders with the dissafected and selfish with regards to nihilism.
It's the individual that transforms the belief not the other way around IMO.

Just another philosophy that can help someone through this thing called life. What we believe is who we are, and what we do is who we are... there is no getting around that. Follow your 'heart' and all will be fine. And, most importantly, remember that this life is special and amazing. *



*I've been wanting to use that jumping green guy for something!

Goddess I recently had the opportunity to give that site counterorder.com, source of the orignal post, a read through and I have to say thanks. Its full of entertaining opinion and I just had to post an article I found on the site....

Nihilistic Vision

The nihilistic vision is a positive result extracted from a negative event. This vision is very much an apocalypse but only for those that have had their chance and ruined it for everyone, the failing, ruling-elite. Yet for everyone else interested in health and renewal it is a brilliant new dawn. This momentous change is of the near future, looming and portentous angry and promising like a storm on the horizon. People fear the consequences but the shrewd revel in the bountiful opportunities bestowed by the aftermath for the best time to rebuild is after the storm. For those who heed - prepare for the beginning, it's closer than you think.

The beginning is the end of sin. All transgressions both individual and collective are forgiven and national crimes annulled. There is no redemption ... but there is no guilt; there is flawed human conduct ... but no false justifications.

Level the cities those putrid piles of poison. Dense population concentrations characteristic of metropolis' only serve to provide ideal incubators for new and ever more pernicious sickness'. While deforestation and urban sprawl scatter and disturb natural wildlife allowing disease and vectors to thrive and spread when they would otherwise be kept in check by the natural balance of life. Once these cancers are razed regionalism will finally triumph over globalism. Instead of blanket edicts from on high rules and solutions will start and address where they're needed - locally.

Time will no longer accrue into infinity but rather will count down to the next beginning. The calendar will no longer start at 1 but end there. 100-1? 500-1? Details, details... At the top of time, all chains broken, all previous debts public and private will be annulled, all currency voided, all laws deleted.

All paper and electronic money will be zeroed out while title records will be burned and destroyed to reset property ownership and eliminate the tyranny of fictional wealth and the institutions that perpetuate it. Faceless bureaucrats can't manage your care in old age or any age without theft or mismanagement because they have no inherent concern for your well being as only the self does. All buildup, all waste legislation, paperwork, and currency emptied and distributed for recycling and fuel for warming homes.

Instead of building mechanical machines without care or spirit we will build humans using what we have and what has already been perfected by millennia. It will be death to the cog and piston, life to the living. The beauty of organic carbon life will be appreciated rather than the artificial lifelessness of the silicon chip. Progress will mean gradually improving near-perfection rather than reinventing from scratch what can never be but imperfect mechanical machines. A respect for life and its infinite potential rather than paving over it. Your greatest gift is your mind and body; don't waste it - utilize it.

Sexual intercourse as reproduction is the worship of life and natural human behaviour. Through the acceptance of instinct rather than the futile attempt to ignore it forcing it out as perversion, repression and mental illness, the genetic imperative is finally unshackled as the one true owner of the human soul. An effort to break the binders that restrict our society meaninglessly, creating a realm of freedom to say what you feel and expound what you believe for a life to be used but not abused while seeking sensations and smarts amid the unclouded clarity of cogent comprehension.

Everyone will have a new name. Finally, every individual will have the opportunity to describe themselves, not as someone else decides but as they decide. What will matter is not what role you play in the dramatic farce of contemporary society but who you are and what you can contribute. This will finally divide the parasites and the producers. Only those that can and do participate to rebuild will receive any reward or status. The parasites receive nothing but ostracism and death.

Safe havens for solitude and sanity will exist in a physical and non-literal sense allowing for introspection imagination and reasoning unfettered or oppressed by the intrusive presence of authority. This freedom of the mind is as important to human life as air and water.

Destruction to the false protectors of harmony and society. All police and military dissolved with their weapons distributed to the participatory social contributors; because the only person that can really defend you is yourself. Through a network of individual 'armies' collective and individual defense assumes its proper role. Thus we each gain freedom, self-sufficiency, purpose and safety that makes healthier minds and bodies.

A plan is secondary to the ideas because the artificial structures around us, the outcome is a product of the collective vision and once concepts are implemented details sort themselves out afterwards. New and superior product will grow on the ash heaps of the old.

The events of the 21st century will not be written by the powers of the 20th. These forces, though appearing unstoppable today, are nevertheless doomed by their very own endogenous flaws; their day in the sun is about to be done. Many will try to revive and reuse but they will all fail, merely replaying the same destructive inevitable. The weaknesses of authorities are the strengths of freedom.

World history is punctuated by deluded masters of conflict, Alexander the Great, Genghis Khan, Napoleon even Hitler. What are they known for? Conquering everything and unifying nothing. The nihilistic vision will conquer nothing and unify everything. Today you have the luxury of making the decision your descendants can't, choose carefully which side of the bulldozer to be on.

http://www.counterorder.com/vision.html



... cause its sure to disagree with many that read it lol.

I started to fart like the devil after I turned 40, so before I open a sixer of Moosehead I take a couple of GasX. Or just keep a lighter handy for fireworks.

Thanks for that article posting Eleleth. I read that at the site, and figured the link in the OP would provide a world of opportunity to browse for more articles. Glad you did.

And I know the site you're talking about leaving behind. Their loss, nihilisms gain. Boy, talk about context!
(yep, it's a shameless bump, but I couldn't let the last impression/reply be that of butt poofs and lighter flames! Though I have no doubt your diet would be entertaining on a dark night moonD. )

Do you believe in blue angels? lol




When I got the chance I devoured it, yumm! lol



Thanks Goddess, talk about context indeed lol, I just prefer to experience the subject matter of threads more than just talk about them. It seemed like the preferable thing to do and I thought with this thread coming up at the time why not show a little nihilism in action, right?

I'd also like to say thanks again, the brain is in overdrive right now, limitless directions are possible, maybe I should look into Scientology or Mormonism? Just kidding lol. I found a few other interesting finds on that site, I'll go over it again and post some things that I find interesting and relevant.