Here's another one dating back to 1845 when some guy named Albert C. Koch pieced together a bunch of whale bones and claimed that it was a giant "ancient" sea monster.

KGS

will you just give it up already? now this is being childish!

Perhaps you would prefer to discuss the topic of this thread instead of making remarks of a personal nature against me.

On the other hand, maybe I should act really mature like you and create my own list of behaviour pertaining to you and each time you make a post make references to which number on the list you're behaving like.

KGS

1845 eh.......lucky we were able to figure that one out over the past 162 years. Actually Koch simply duped the public in order to make money.

The great part of the story is that it was SCIENCE that uncovered the fraud and brought it to light, 162 years ago. Thats the whole purpose of the peer review!!

I hope Koch hasn't turned you off science because of his fraud that was committed 162 years ago, science has actually done some great things since then.

Do you have more modern examples of this type of fraud?

it would not matter if he did because all it would do is show the strength of the scientific method because for them to be labeled as frauds they would have had to bean subjected to peer review. so by trying to discredit science he is actually showing how reliable it is. which defeats the purpose of his argument making this thread pointless.

What is even the point of this thread besides a poor attempt to prove people wrong?

oh that reminds me! we are still waiting for you to come here http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum...showtopic=86838 and post your evidence that the earth is only a few thousand years old. cant wait to see you fulfill number two

Well, no, this stuf continues to happen today and for all we know many of the inherent truths about dinosaurs and the origins of the Earth, etc. are fallacies; given that scientific theories about these subjects continue to change, it's somewhat disconcerting that people go around arguing that what science says is fact.

It's estimated that 5-10% of scholarly scientific articles that are published are fraudulant. No doubt this is a conservative estimate.

An interesting thing to do is to go back and read the "scientific" attempts to debunk Rachel Carson's assertion that chemical pollutants were dangerous. The time of denounciations and vitriolic language reminds me of the type of abuse that I've been subjected to here.

KGS

Yes, but science also corrects itself.

5-10% you say? Please, where did you get this information. Share it with a link. Back up your claims.

However it has been evidently clear you have no idea how science works, or anything that involves science. You've sucessfully proven this by how you ignore questions given to you asking you to back up your claims. (I've said this alot because well.. you do this alot)

So here.. let me help you. (Though I predict you'll ignore these)

A site with a smorgusborg(egads word) of how different things within science and technology works

Here's a deffinition of science that may help clearify the issues you are having, well, issues with.

And here's Science made simple.

There, I do hope this helps you, and that you may beable to answer the questions you leave us every time you say .. well anything.

Oh and..
You're lucky I don't consider your statements uncredible by your spelling.

I always wanted to be a scientist so I could wear a labcoat, have a reason not to brush my hair, and laugh manically each time I come across a new finding.

You have no sources for you infomation, your scientific knowledge is limited at best. If your opposed to science sure you should not use scientifically based equipment like computers, phonelines, television, plastics, combustion engines, printed word, electricity, roads, and you should never go to hopital or a doctor and you should avoid almost all food.

Yeah, and keeps on correcting itself, because in many respects it can't determine the truth, instead just theories and "educated guesses". Yet people go around proclaiming conjecture to be fact. Apparently, according ing to some people here, doing this makes one not an "intellectual coward" or "confined". So basically, in order to be intellectual, one has to subscribe to the current theories of what is and is not fact, rather than admitting that some things are unknowable to use, and that there are more important things to be doing than worrying about knowables like the age of the Earth.

KGS

Yeah, yeah, yeah, heard it all before, but you have to admit that it's pretty stupid to make these kinds of assertions when I never claimed to be "opposed to science." I'm critical of science's ability to solves certain issues and the manner in which science is used by certain kinds of people to lead others astray, for one things, and to destroy God's creation, as well. Remember, God created the world and how it functions, so mankind being able to advance through understanding how the world works is one thing; but the extent to which science has taken us beyond this is certainly disconcerting. Nuclear and chemical weapons, genetic modification, the creation of innumerable synthetic toxic compounds, to name but a few. What has to happen before people like you finally smarten up to the fact that science is starting to produce more problem than benefits? Nuclear war? Cataclismic climate change?

KGS

Prove it.

Which God?

And how do you know he/she/they/it created the world?

Just making the claim is fine but don't expect others to accept it as gospel.

never thought that you and i would see eye to eye on some thing. in a way you are right. science has brought a lot of great evils to this world and it may very well be the death of us. but science is are only ticket out of this mundane existence on this little blue dot we call earth. with great power comes great responsibility. wether or not we humans are mature enough to handle that responsibility has yet to be determined.

Now he's being an alarmist.

If you can't accept the good side of science with the bad, then I don't know what to tell you.

Oh yeah things like nuclear bombs and explosives, and better ways of killing people through science happens. But things like finding cures for cancers, diseases, making our lives better, being able to see what's on our brother planet Mars, actually finding a way to make plastic out of corn that's biodegratable... are *good* things that comes with the knowledge of science.

KGS goes on about how "God created.. yadda yadda worship him.." Well there's bad things that come though that as well. Especialy in the way that shuns sciences. If we still lived in a culture that shunned science, we'd probaly still be dieing off from things like small pox and the plague... We'd still have a real fear of all those childhood diseases that we have vacinations for.

Hells alot more women would be dieing in childbirth..

*shrugs* I'll take what science gives us any day. Accepting the good and the bad with it.

Exactly, with out the advancement in medical science during the 20th century I would not be alive now.

And what may I ask, has religion brought us over the years besides war and hate?

who?! me?! naaa. i just dont like to get so caught up in my own argument that i fail to notice a good point when i see one.



you should not take these things so lightly. it is a very horrible power that we wield. one that could completely destroy us if we are not careful. we must own up to the responsibility for what we create.



this has a dark side to it as well. there are fewer people dying and more people living longer lives. without any thing to control are numbers (say for diseases which we are constantly finding cures for and the occasional war) we are quickly starting to over populate are planet. if we continue to increase the pressure we put on are planet eventully are environment will collapse and we will all die anyway. if we want to live longer and more healthier lives then we need to reproduce less. eventully we will have to make this compromise or else we will kill are selfs.



yes but we need to use are knowledge wisely. that is all im trying to say here.



yes but let us not get so caught up in the good that we forget the bad. we should be mindful of what we create and try to find ways to limit or remove the bad things that come of it.

Was talking about KGS, not you.

And well.. you basicaly just said the same thing I did, but sounding paranoid.

Do I take the bad side lightly? Nope. But I won't sit here and preach the evils of science while useing the good things that come with.

But I also keep a messure of reality along with it. Yes there are bad things. But no.. unless there's an opportunity... there's nothing I can do about it. So I'm not going to sit here and be paranoid to the point where I'll go live in a cave somewhere. Where there are opportunities to do something about the bad things.. I'll do them. If not.. well.. life happens. No sence getting an ulser over it.

Oh, so you're willing to compromise then, and accept the bad things that science has brought because it is in a small way componsation for the good things that it brings? That's kind of a dubious trade-off if you ask me.

You clearly fear death--for good reason, I suppose--as do most people, and so anything that prolongs the chance of life is a "good thing" in you estimation. It's only natural to want a full life and for the health and well being of friends and loved ones, but guess what, death is inevitable, and the fact that people can't or won't accept this has caused so many problems in the world. If you live a life that will lead to eternal life after death, then there should be no fear of death, and it shouldn't matter if one dies when they're 20 or 75. But I suppose in your opinion that it's better for you to live to 100 years of age at the risk of a whole future generation being wiped out in a nuclear war. Interesting.

KGS

Excuse me? The vast majority of the time the Christian world has lived in peace, and truly Christian people and communities have lived in peace and prospered. War is something wrought by deceiveres and non-believers, as foretold in the Bible. It's an astonishing distortion of the truth to state that all religion brings is "war and hate" and it belies a total ignorance of history.

KGS

HOORAY! It's time for another around of...

LET'S MAKE BAD ASSUMPTIONS!!


Today's contestent is KGS!

He assumes that I fear death.

The answer is... Nope! I don't fear it. I accept it. Death happens. I've had death occure in my hands. I've watched friends and family die. I've even come close to death a few times myself. Hells as it is right now with my health issues... I could die during the night any time now. And I don't fear it. I'll be to busy being dead to care or fear. But remember, skippy... I did say I was very spiritual. So I deffinatly don't believe in a nothingness after death.

Aww.. I'm sorry you lost this round.

Please.. don't try again. No one ever wins when they make bad assumptions.

Science invented the bathroom. If we didnt have toilets you would be peeing in outhouses.

This is sarcasm I hope! Christianity is the most angry hateflled system of beleif that I am aware of. I would think you would see this after reading the bible, with its beautiful quotes such as "suffer not a witch to live." Christianity, primarily the Roman Catholics have been responsible for millions of deaths and hundreds of organized genocides over the last 1500 years. The Inquisition, the Hollacaust, the Witch Trials, not to mention the Holy War made on the Middle East at the start of this era, along with the mass "conversion" of Celtic society around 400 CE, and that of the Native Americans after 1650 CE... I could go on. Undoubtedly the Christians have lived in peace, while their armies were in other lands purging it of heathens.


This is sarcasm I hope! Christianity is the most angry hateflled system of beleif that I am aware of. I would think you would see this after reading the bible, with its beautiful quotes such as "suffer not a witch to live." Christianity, primarily the Roman Catholics have been responsible for millions of deaths and hundreds of organized genocides over the last 1500 years. The Inquisition, the Hollacaust, the Witch Trials, not to mention the Holy War made on the Middle East at the start of this era, along with the mass "conversion" of Celtic society around 400 CE, and that of the Native Americans after 1650 CE... I could go on. Undoubtedly the Christians have lived in peace, while their armies were in other lands purging it of heathens.

"The most angry hatefilled system of beleif [sic]"? You're serious. It's anything but, but if your source for Christian history is Hollywood and anti-Christian propaganda of course you're going to think that.

Nothing that I've read in the New Testament indicates that Christians should hateful and malicious; quite the opposite, even against those the revile and persecute you. I think many people confuse the teachings against sin and evil in the New Testament as indications that Christianity is hateful, because these people are the type of people that the teachings apply to; obviously sinners and evil people are not going to appreciate being identified as such, and will in turn attempt to twist things and try to portray Christians and Christianity as bad.

Keep in mind too that making blanket statements about a particular faith or people who subscribe to that faith is something called bigotry. No one would dare (publically at least) to label Islam as an "angry hatefilled system of belief" because of the numerous suicide bombing taking place in the Middle East, because they know that the majority of people who are not violent and supportive of this kind of violence. Right? Yet you have no reservations with holding Christians to account for event that happened hundreds of years ago by people professing to be Christians. (Keep in mind, the New Testament clear states that there will be false prophets and people who claim to be followers of Christ who will do things in contradiction to his teachings.) There's simply no way that if you have any understanding of Christianity that you can assert that the people who perpetrate crimes in the name of Jesus are actually Christian. People need to learn how to differentiate between true Christians and people who claim to be Christians, and base their opinions upon the actions of true Christians. Not surprisingly, most people would prefer to base everything on their bigotted notions of Christianity, feeling themselves all intelligent and righteous in doing so. True Christians realize that this is inevitable and unstoppable, and the only thing that they can do is bear with the persecution and pray for the well-being and changing of their ways of the persecuters.

If you want to play the numbers game, you should keep in mind that the Holocaust was perpetrated by the Nazis, largely an atheistic ideology, who killed 12 million, that the Soviet Communist regime, also atheistic, was responsible for about 30 million deaths, not to mention what went on in Cambodia, China, etc.

KGS

Did you even read what I wrote?

There seem s to be an increasing tendency for threads in this forum and the Science and Technology forum to become debates on religion. The Spirituality, Religion and Beliefs and the Spirituality vs Skepticism forums are the correct places for theological debates. Lets keep these forums for the purpose they were designed.

Boy has this thread went way out in left field lol.

So, we gather that science, no matter how much good comes from it, we shouldn't compromise with it because it also brings bad?

Medically speaking. Science has brought the polio vaccine, the flu shot, morphine to help chronically ill patients, chemotherapy to help battle cancer, surgeries to reconstruct badly wounded victims in unfortunate accidents.

Should we deny a child suffering lukemia medical treatment because treatment comes from science that has an evil side to it? We should deny a child to live a full life when there is the necessary tools to correct it?

It's not about being afraid to die, it's using your brain to take advantage of the treatment that is layed out for us.

If you want to use God or any religion as your opinion on why science is evil, don't you think that God gave us the knowedge to expand and grow?

Maybe God put the Tree of Knowedge in the Garden of Eden for a reason.

Bah, we tried to get KGS up there.. but he won't go for it. He'd rather stay here and preach the dangers of science and the glory of god.

Unfortunatly, when you try to debate strictly science with someone who firmly believes everything in the bible then tries to impose that over logic and scientific threads, it's going to break out into semi religious debates.

Where did I say that science was "evil"? I do think that there are many bad things resulting from science now, but I can't recall making an assertion that science is inherently "evil". God created the Earth and how it functions. And God created humans with the ability to think. Naturally, humans are going to try and figure out how the world works, but there are always limitations, and just because something appears to be beneficial doesn't mean that it isn't actually the opposite. DDT is an excellent example. That's one that science has had to admit was a mistake; sadly, there are tens of thousands of others that they won't.

KGS

Well, no, its the other people here that have tended to focus on my Christian faith, and even attack me for it. I simply have a different perspective on things, one that is within the proper Christian context, and am simply expressing myself in a manner that I feel to be normal. Its the aversion that other people are having that's causing all of the friction.

KGS

Actually m'dear.. you're being "attacked" more because you *NEVER* cite your information sources, unless it was something about finding birds in Africa.

When you make posts like "I know the world is only a couple of thousand years old for a fact!" (sic) and you don't post anything to back up this claim... you're going to get nailed. You even had demonstraited that you don't truly understand the basic concepts of science.. and when people try to explain it.. you scoff at them and throw fits.

Yeah your faith gets underfire as well.. but only when you drag it into the topid first in one way or another. That's why people try to leave their religions at the door here in these forums.

Touching back at the earth's age thing to clearify myself.

People are bringing up scientific evidence that the earth a billions of years ok. You come in and simply say "I know the world is only a few thousand years old." Well.. are you going by faith or fact? If it's faith.. then it will be attacked because you *CANNOT* proove or bring up scientific evidence. And you have been asked and given ample opportunities to post any scientific evidence for your claim. Neglecting to do so just tells people you're nothing but a bibble thumping luddite that can't back up a single claim.

If you want people to stop attacking you, and your faith, either back up your claims, or tone down your posts in the religious department. Hells.. it would also help if you put more indepth meaning to the posts you make like "Another reason why science sucks..." (sic) Uh.. ok.. why? What's your evidence that science is bad? It's like we have to pry indepth posts from you with a crow bar. Even then you ignore half the questions given to you, and the other half gets some kind of arrogant filled venom that really does not help your case.

That four winged dino post you necroposted in... I'm still waiting as to your reasonings for not just bringing it back from the grave.. as well as an embelishment on that less then insightfull and meaningless post you made in it. There had to be a reason to bring a long dead post up other then to make some snarky comment... If not, then I really suggest you keep from doing that again. That is a very good way to annoy and tick people off, including a few mods.

Now you will either ignore every attempt to be helpful in this post and just give me some snarky arrogant reply... *shrugs* Hey whatever. But you can't later on say I never told ya so.

(gah... dyslexia worse at 1am and dead tired from class)

Well, no, I don't suppose that I lost this one, but seeing that you bring up the matter of "health issues" you know that this puts me in a position where I can't truly respond. Perhaps this is what you intended, I don't know. Whatever the case, I wish you all the best and by the grace of God a betterment in your condition.

"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3)

KGS

Well concidering you said "I bet you fear death" and I said "Uh.. No.. I don't" You lost.

But thanks for the well wishes and such. And to appease the waspie one.. I shan't go into my oh so lovely shamanic shpeil of healing and all that. *snickers*

but I'm not going to debate the issue...

"Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well. This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God." (I John 5:1-5)

KGS

Ah dear.. this is where the whole "No religious stuff here" comes into play. Happy that you have faith... but it's not mine *chuckles* If you wanna continue something like this.. the right forums are above these. X)

I have asked politely that people have theological debates in the correct forum. I would also point out that this is a discussion forum. The opening post:

does not really lend itself to a debate and particularly to a debate on the natural world. As has already been pointed out sources for information such as this would be helpful for meaningful debate.

As this thread is hopelessly off topic (assuming there was actually an "on topic" to start with) and there seems to be little hope for it becoming a discussion on anything relevant to this particular forum I am closing this thread.