I posted yesterday about the modern vampire fad and asked if it they were real or not. Now I have another question. Can a vampire exist? Can they be created by black magic? Here is the original question I asked on the other post.

What about those who study black magic and the occult? Since vampires, gouls, zombies, and other undead creatures are considered as creations from black magic. Is there spells or incantations to perhaps transform into or raise up such undead creatures?

All answers and opinions appreciated.

I beleive there are many unseen being living in our world, perhaps through certain rituals once can be called into a living person, a self inflicted possession. However classically a vampire is a corpse and I do not beleive that a corpse can be physically reanimated by any force that I am aware of. Psi vamps IMO are subject to a spiritual parasite that drains their energy, thus forcing them to drain others to sustain themselves, and the ever hungry spirit that requires the energy of the living to remain active in our realm of existance. It shouldn't be hard to call one of these parasites to you but who would want to?
Furthermore there are more desirable entities out there to work with, ones that would not require you to harm or drain those that are close to you.

I don't believe there is any black magick spells for bringing the dead back to life, I could be wrong. I keep thinking of necromancy but that is raising the deads spirits. Although, according to Vodoun a dead person can be brought back to life. ( Zombies in Voodoo ) I also remember watching something about a Hatian women who truly believed she was brought back from the dead, apparently was declared dead and was gone for years and then came back. Who can know for sure..

Right then...

No.. Black magic is only dubbed evil by people who either do not understand how magics work, and or by people who fear it and have a religious intolorance of it. (and I think we all know who I mean there)

Black, used in certain witch craft style spells, and sometimes in druidic spells, is not ment to be used to harm, but as a boost in "power" for whatever color magic one is performing. Like say.. uh green for either spiritual growth, or monitary growth. If you burn a black candle with a green one, the black candle is supposed to increase the whole underlining power of the spell.

No, there is *NO* spell out there.. and I don't care that the writers used wicca in Buffy and had a ressurection spell. There is *NO* spell anyhere that will do that. This is why we call it.. "The magic of Holly wood." Because that is the *only* place those spells work. Much like every spell ever used in The Craft and In any other deplorible "real magic" movies.

Yeah, there's alot out there with how "black and evil" something like voodoo is. No, it's not. If it is, it's just hyped up that way by hollywood, people who again don't understand or fear it, and people who like to use that whole "evil" thing to make some cash. Having known real people who practices real voodoo, it's like a blend of african tribal magic and roman catholic spirituality. Nothing evil about it. Just does look like it because they do use bones and such.

Most if not all (save the little teenies out there who think it's something "cool") witches/wiccans/shamans/druids/greek/roman/norse... faiths have the whole "Harm no one" rule in any form you can think of. Do as thou will at the harm of none. Which means curses and hexes are right out.. (and really... you'd have to really hate someone to use one.. and receive the backlash from it)

Like I said.. the teen kids seem to like to think there's real black magic out there.. and buy into that whole evil goth vampire black magic subculture.. till they find out that none of the spells they do work. Then you get the wild stories that are completely made up just to save face. That or they end up doing something insanely stupid and end up in jail. (I'm sorry, but slaying puppies in a local pound, then murdering your parents will *NOT* summon a dark lord to do your bidding. However, it will summon the men in blue uniforms who will haul you away to the magic land of bars, handcuffs, judges, and possibly a death scentence!)

Now.. that whole vampire thing. Uhm.. no. Sorry. The real "vampires" are people in a subculture of goths that happen to like wearing fangs and drinking blood. However, they are still bound by the same laws of physics and nature as we and other mgic users are. As in, they can't chant some incantation, pour someone's blood on a coffin and have the occupant rise from the dead. The laws of nature don't work that way. No matter how many spells they do.. they are still suseptible to getting AIDS if they drink tainted blood. Though there is still a bit of magic in that maybe a certain chant or spell can "sway" the probability so they don't.

That's still not black magic.. just a spell of protection. Magic, to me atleast, is not changing your eye or hair color.. is not rezzing someone, is not cursing someone to have green toad skin the next day. It's about asking whichever set of gods and goddess you have to sway fate, luck and probability in your favour. Like.. going back to the green candle for.. monitary growth. You do the spell work, burn the green candle for however long the spell says.. you do everything to the letter... and *maybe* by the end of the spell casting you could receive money in some way or another. Maybe you'll win the lotto.. or get a raise.. or a bonus.. Heck, if you do it at the right time, say your birthday.. someone might send you cash in a birthday card.

As a studying shaman. I know I can't just chant and dance and burn sage grass and *POOF* your booboo is healed. The laws of nature and physics don't work that way. What I can do.. is chant and dance and burn the sage to help calm the person.. help put that person in the right mental state to heal. (Healing does largly come from the mind...) I can give them herbs that are for what hurts them.. Or.. if it's a spiritual or life hurt.. guide them. Heal them through spells that would help set their spirit at easy. (and mind you... if someone comes to me with a broken arm.. or you know.. something way worse that *NEEDS* medical care first.. I'ma send them to the hospital ;P Then they can come back to me.. LOL)


Magic is all about sway... not changing the laws of physics and nature... And black magic is just hyped up fear and hollywood that people who don't understand will just go about and spread this not understanding about. That actually is more harmful then any "black magic" spell hollywood can come up with.. the spread of ignorance. X)


(and yes.. this is a practiced post.. I usually find myself posting this atleast once a month, if not once every other...)

I don't know about zombies but yes black magic does work. One way is to sit in the middle of a chalk drawn circle with the elements of Earth Air Fire and Water written in four 'corners' and to call the angels of those four corners (Gabriel, Michael, Raphael and Uriel). Another form of black magic to gain control over someone is to get a picture of them and get a lock of their hair and tape it to the back. It works, my grandmother who practices this did this to me. Also she has stood behind a mirror and taken a few strands of my hair to for the same reasons. She says if you throw the hair (or other object) into the sea there is absolutely NO reversal to what has been done.

Another way is to go to a church and get the person to scrape their fingernails into a candle in an anti-clockwise direction. This screws up the persons life (she did this to my parents). the same can be done with taking the person's nails (as the hair) to gain cntrol overthe person. If you REALLY want to screw someone's life up get them to stand int the crossroads and say a few words (she did this to her own son my father). Pretty evil woman, and she's born on Halloween, go figure!.

In the Greater Key of Solomon there is a whole heap of really evil black magic and some white magic too. Most if not all magic involves angels, fallen angels or demons and magic was originally taught by the fallen angels of Enoch (by Shemhazai and Amaros specifically, one to remove magic one to do it). And don't even get me started on the throwing of the 'Evil Eye' which has been around since the Egyptians.

Vampires and zombies don't necessarily have to be created by Black Magic...thats just one belief and idea. In the case of Vampires a person's entire biological system would have to be transformed and casting a spell cannot do that. Ghouls are kind of like ghosts I think so i guess you could summon one but not create one. Zombies is the only possibility...if you remove all rational scientific principles that is.

Black Magic is in the same camp as Psychic powers...if their real and people can do them, then they should be able to prove it easily just by performing them.

Black Magic isn't evil but can be used for evil...ever play a Final Fantasy video game? Ever notice how the good guys can be Black Mages?

Zombies are people who were poisoned with blow fish poison or a special herb that makes their bodies "die" .. paralizes them to the point that their heart beat isn't even regeristering. Then when it wears off they "Come back to life" and presto.. a zombie. Usually they are mentaly conditioned to believe they are now a zombie, and must do the bidding of the person that "brought" them back to life by either giving them an antidote or doing a "spell" around the time the poison wears off.

I saw a special on that...its practiced in Vodoo. They used a thing called "zombie powder" i think it was.There was a movie about it.

The effect of the zombie powder would make your body appear dead but was actually opperating at a very slow rate...and you couldn't tell the difference if the user was alive or dead unless you had good medical equipment in a hospital. After awhile you would "wake up"...think of the poison Juliet took at the end of Romeo and Juliet. After you woke up your body would still be operating at a slower pace and kind of almost parlyzing you...and your brain wouldn't be opperating right. In a lot of cases there is permanent brain damage. The effect would leave you without damaged brain so you would act and think like the zombies you see in the movies...also your motor skills(movement) would be off so you would stumble and move weird...like in the movies. Also because of the nature of the zombie powder on your body you could take physical damage like being stabbed and your brain wouldn't even register it and you would act as if nothing happened(I'm not entirely sure but you may not bleed as normal either because your blood flow isn't normal).

Because of your decreased mentallity one could convince you into slavery as easily as it is to teach a dog how to sit. To my knowledge there is a cure and sometimes the effect just wheres off but in some cases its permanent...that is if somebody doesn't kill you first. Soposidly there is two versions of the zombie powder...the real one as described above that is kind of kept secret by the practicers of Vodoo and one given out to tourists and scientists who come asking for it(which is basically just a hallucinatory drug)

There could be multiple different versions of this zombie powder...because I think native americans and the like have a version of it too.

The zombie blowfish poison is called "Tetrodotoxi". The Hollywood version of the real account of the powder being brought to the Pharmaceutical companies in America is featured in the fictionalized account in the movie: "Serpent and the Rainbow".


For the OP, given you have an interest in black magic and Vampirism, I'd suggest this site: House of Kheperu http://www.kheperu.org/modules.php?op=modl...313ef39f5db2e57

A friend of mine told me about it via Email, after they read the Book:Vampire Codex, which is written by the woman who originated that site, so as to offer support to the Vamp. community. There is a forum there where you can meet all manner of neo-vamps, and learn from those that practice as well as opine , the philosophy.

Yup.. so making a Zombie is nothing magical. Just a knowledge of physiology and chemistry.

It's all dolled up as "oo spooky black magic" for flair, beliefs, and the desire to have a slave. heh..

Most spells like being "bound" or "gotten" that involves a personal item and .. like hair.. is a mental condition. It's kind of like how scientists were able to stand up against "chi" blasts.

If you believe the spell is going to work on you.. it most likely will. You're conditioned to preceive being bound "magicaly". Which can open the door to a whole lot of fun. If used right. Doesn't make it black or white magic. It's like a trust fall. Do you trust the person casting a spell on you?

Then again, in matters of someone not knowing a spell has been applied, nor the person that did so, I think the most responsibility for faith in the work would be the one that first trusts that spells can work affectively. After that compromise, one would be susceptible by inference or direct implication, (as in being told someone has done this thing "to" them, etc...) , to that thought and as such may attribute things occurring in their life, to some manner of super natural influence.

What's interesting , with respect to SC's mention of hair or a body part of a target, being used to work magic against them, is that while effigies and all manner of magic has been worked using such materials, for centuries. A piece of the person one wanted to affect, would make a map of sorts, for the powers to work upon a specific energy/individual, according to that unique personal attribute of the person targeted. Now DNA science tells us that while all humans share the same 5 basic chemicals in DNA, each persons DNA strands are replica's of their self. Countless copies of all that we are, stored in an article from our person. Hair, fingernails, skin. So in effect, what that says is those ancient Magi that used hair to wrap a doll , or fingernail clippings , for their work, were correct to think those articles would personalize and target their victim affectively. I love when science corroborates ancient pagan practices.

Heard if you use any of your magic for bad though it will come back to haunt you 3 times as worst.

*grins*

Basicaly... understanding how things works... it really clears up alot of the misconceptions about it. Magic no longer is "Black" and "White". It just is. And it then becomes however the person uses it, and how the "target" person preceives it.

A spell caster could put a bind on "Person A" and "make them" do a certain line of tricks. Or just make it so they couldn't move. And that might scare Person A.. so they'll precieve it as black evil magic.

Now.. if the same spell caster casts the same spells, charms, binding whathave you on Person B... that person might precieve it as something fun, or usefull. Thus the whole spell is now white good magic.

So really... it all comes down to mental conditioning of whoever is involved.

I think if you want to see good exsample of magic go to a united Penticostal church some night when they are really getting it on .

They got the voodooers beat .

Be carefull though as it can get dangerous . I read online one time that dureing one of their services in brazil they all started to kill each other .

And even here a few years ago a kid went to a penticostal church with his neibours in the morning that night they went and left him home . when they came home he shot them both with no motives . Then some say he drew a black cross on the table when he was done (i'm not sure that part is true) .

Should be some studies on penticostalism see how dangerous it really is ,I suspect might surprise us .

I grew up attending trinity penticostal type church they can put on a good show but nothing like a united penticostal church . I only went there once . It WAS SCARRY . Their voices even changed . You could even feel it in the Air .

Again.. that's alot of mental conditioning. Those who are conducting the whole experiance knows what to do to get the best effect, and how to get everyone in the right mindset to "experiance" something magical.

If someone puts themself in the right mindset.. they can easily change the sound, pitch, and tone of their voice. I've done that a few times myself. Though what happens when I do.. does not make my husbandy type happy. Which is his fault anyways.

Basicaly when I first moved out to live with him he was taking akido. So when we would rough house he would try to joint lock me and pin me down. Well there is something in me that just does not like that. And I ent up basicaly "channeling" a feline spirit that just hates being pinned. When it takes over, I'm stronger, and litteraly start sounding more and more like a feline. Crazy? Well yeah.. alot of people would think so. But it becomes a survivor thing. But the tone, sound, and pitch of my voice becomes exactly like a felines. *shrugs* And I just end up biteing and scratching at the poor guy till he lets me go.

Sure people can "meow" and think they sound like a cat... but I've been known to actually have conversations with cats. X) As well as fool people thinking that I have one. I'd just mreeowl over the phone when speaking to one friend and he'd swear up and down I had a kitty. XD Heck I can even pur and people would think it's a real cat.


But that's getting off the subject abit.

What you precieve as scary, was probaly rather fun and exciting to another person, Nova. It's all in the mind set.. in how you think it is.

Well the night i went they started it with rock type music . (Its been 15 years ago so can't remember exsactly) they started doing like a cho cho train around the church . Then the jiberish started . One woman fell down on the Floor backwards and starting vibrating in a way i don't think she could fake . bouncing right off the floor .

The minister was Saying in a Horse voice Why Did you come here tonight you who want to follow those easy churches .(meaning Me ) I tell you this is From the Bible ! In a low voice or maybe not outloud I would say No its Not .
He Would say YES IT IS ! I honestly think I was surounded by a pack of demons! I was glad to get out of there .

That was back when i was studying religion before i picked a church to get baptised in . I looked a Few over .

I never seen them when they knock people backward . But my father told me one time he went beleaveing he could not be knocked backwards . He said he went up front to prove it . But Down he went right on his back . Said it surprised him they could really do it to him.
I should try it sometime as i think if im really Church of God they can't do it . My father wasn't church of God and they could knock him over . I just don't like to go play with spirits .

If it was God they would fall on their face not their Backs .

None of it is real. None of it works. People like fooling themselves.

go look it over some nite after meetings in united penticostal churches lol . Then tell me its nothing!

The trinity ones are very mild compared to the United Penticostals from what ive seen .

They can really get things going! A good place to pick yourself up a demon in my opinion!

Oh she probaly was not fakeing. Her mind preceived something and her body acted accordingly. Same with people being "pushed" backwards and such.

Ok, I'll do some digging when I'm done with my homework (10 years of no school.. and I'm back in and doing homework.. eek!) and find that chi thing, unless someone finds it before me. X)

However the video went like... There is this great "Chi" master, and he's teaching all these young people how to master and throw their "chi" about. Even so powerfully enough that people are knocked down. Now, these two scientists had gone to observe and feel the effect from this chi, and filmed it. Sure enough when they got there.. people were "tossing" chi balls back and fourth, and the master was showing them how he can make people fall back and be knocked over.

Well this is either two things. It's a huge elaborate hoax (possible)... or it's what I've been saying all along. These kids are mentaly conditioned to preceive something, and their bodies will act accordingly to what their mind has preceived. As in, they see the master doing the arm motions to "hurle" a chi blast or ball at them. And as soon as their minds pick up on that.. their bodies will act as if they were it by something powerful enough to knock them back.

After watching this for a while, the scientists then had the master guy try this effect on them. Well their mind was not conditioned to think that they were going to be hit by anything. And sure enough, when the master did his arm movements, the scientist that was "hit" didn't fall back or anything. He was standing there as if nothing happened. Sure the master was making up all kinds od excuses as to why. He had his big to up, or he was holding his arms a certain way... but the reality was.. the scientist's mind was not set up to precieve that anything would happen.


And as I had mentioned in my first post. As a studying shaman... part of the key to what we do for healing people is to mentaly condition them to heal. It's not.. doing a sacred dance, sinigng a sacred chant, burning a sacred herb and *POOF* the person's healed. It's doing these things to mentaly condition them to heal. Helping their mind precieve good health so that their body will act accordingly and heal quicker or more effitiantly. (again.. I always stress.. if it's a majorly bad owie.. hospital first!) Like if someone comes to me with say all the symptoms of a particulare cancer. I will insist they see a doctor first. What I can do.. can help in conjunction with what doctors can do. But I am not one to risk what could happen if they don't see a doctor first.

It's also the same with what I'm learning now. Massage Therapy. There's a reason why MT's use aroma therapy, and play soft relaxing music. They want to bring on an air of calm and relaxation so that the client is mentaly conditioned to well relax and heal with the help of what techniques the massage therapist does.

If so then it's very persuasive and affective. Think about how everything we think we know all begins in consciousness. A sense of awareness for what we see as reality. Then think how physics says all that is illusion. (like the Buddhists believe. Again that science/pagan practices corollary. ) , and that what we think is solid real life, is actually changing in accord with our thoughts about what we think we're seeing, as well as our emotions about that. So, if someone focuses the same conscious willful intention on something they call magic, who's to say it's delusion that it can have an affect, when all that we think we see and know otherwise, is according to our focus of consciousness then to. Think of the non-occult philosophies, that are still related to occult practices despite the marketing tools that would imply a white light facade to them: creative visualization, transcendental meditation, etc... I don't think we can ever discount the powers of the mind, when all that we are in the flesh is what we think it means to be that, while all that is just energy focused into form, and called my identity. There's lots of that power everywhere we look. I don't think I can discount what is there as that energy, can not be channeled in ways some call magic, when it's already channeled itself making everything I think I see as a solid absolute, in my world. It's not. And according to the physics, everyone and everything are at their very essence, musical energies moving constantly to a rhythm. And that's just in the 3rd dimension. Imagine the forum discussion if we were able to relate to all those others.

What it's like to be a quark!" Title of Thread 1 , Page 3.

That is one very plausible and good way to think of it. XD

Like I've said. Once you understand the mechanics and how it all works. Magic is no longer "Black" or "white" , "Good" or "Evil". It just is. And it's how it's used, and how the person preceives it's effect on them.

You can't change the laws of physics or nature. That kind of magic only happens in computer games and Hollywood now. XD

This stuff that Penticostals do can usally be found in pagan religions .

I have heard The greak priestess Would go into fits speaking jiberish , and maybe even voodoo does this too .

the falling backwards ive seen shows on that power of chi thing and its same type stuff .

I don't know about the Hysterical laughter that they sometimes break into .

I think in the Toronto Blessing they broke out into barking like dogs .

I suppose hypmotist is something .But i think you have to alow them too do it to you .

I knew a guy use to hypmotise animals . I watched him do a pet rabbit could make it go just like a stuffed animal but he said you could not do cats . for some reason cats can't be done . won't look them in the eyes i guess .

Nova... *snickers* Dear...

All I can do.. is repeat myself.

The animals.. it's not that hard to hypnotize... same with people. some can.. some can't. It's a mental trick.

But for everything else.. just go back and reread everything I've been saying. My first post even touched apon voodoo..

True. But it doesn't stop some people from holding faith in the Hollywood illusion! I visited an occult forum that a friend of mine sent me a PM invite to. I go into the Introductions forum and I kid you not there's this thread introducing this teenage girl and wiccan practitioner and her aspirations to one day become as powerful a witch as the sisters on Charmed.

If it was that do-able, I wouldn't be driving a 2007 Mazda, I can tell you that. I'd be swinging magic sticks and going "POOF", all over the place. Porsche there. Mansion in Maui, across the pond. A few choice and naked celebrities, in the pillow topped bed over here, followed by a man servant that would feed me ice cream bon bons, as my incentive to work out on the Bow-flex yet again. Burn those calories! "POOF!"



True. But it doesn't stop some people from holding faith in the Hollywood illusion! I visited an occult forum that a friend of mine sent me a PM invite to. I go into the Introductions forum and I kid you not there's this thread introducing this teenage girl and wiccan practitioner and her aspirations to one day become as powerful a witch as the sisters on Charmed.

If it was that do-able, I wouldn't be driving a 2007 Mazda, I can tell you that. I'd be swinging magic sticks and going "POOF", all over the place. Porsche there. Mansion in Maui, across the pond. A few choice and naked celebrities, in the pillow topped bed over here, followed by a man servant that would feed me ice cream bon bons, as my incentive to work out on the Bow-flex yet again. Burn those calories! "POOF!"

I'm seeing double! XD


Yeah I know... One of the horror stories I have is when The Craft came out. I had a buncah little teenagers come up to me (at the time I wore a penticle because it was pretty and a gift) and asked me to teach them how to do the magic they saw in that movie. Especialy the eye and hair color changing spells. They thought it was all real because they heard that the producers used real witches and wiccans to teach the actors how to cast them. So they didn't use special effects. (aahahaha the nieveness of youth...)

Once I told that that it wasn't true, that you can't change the laws of physics and nature, that they were special effects, that there is no spell anywhere that will change any part of their body like that. They lost intrest in being pagan all together.


Edit in... I do know of a weightloss spell. But it's not "POOF! You're skinny!" (or I'd be all over that) It's basicaly what every other spell is out there. It helps to mentaly condition yourself to lose weight. It's asking the gods and goddess to help sway fate and probibility to help you as well. If you believe the spell is working.. chances are you're also going to start eating right and doing more excersize. And your mind is conditioned right which will make your body act accordingly. As in lose weight more efficiantly and faster. X)

The Toronto Blessing is a term coined by the British press to describe the revival and resulting phenomena that began in January of 1994 at Toronto Airport Vineyard Christian Fellowship, now known as Toronto Airport Christian Fellowship (TACF), a neocharismatic evangelical Christian church located in Toronto, Ontario, Canada. Participants in the conferences and meetings sponsored by TACF have reported healings, incidents of personal transformation and a greater awareness of God's love. It has also been referred to as "The Father's Blessing", "The Anointing", "The Awakening", "The River", "The Fire".

At TACF Revival services, worshippers have exhibited unusual behaviours that they attribute to an encounter with God and the “fire of the Holy Spirit”. The most common described behaviours include hysterical laughter (or “holy laughter”), physical spasms or jerks, falling to the floor under the Holy Spirit's power (aka “slain in the Spirit”) and speaking in tongues. Other less common behaviours include manifestations that resembled roaring like lions and barking like dogs. (See Derek Prince commentary). At one time the TACF website described it thus: “The Toronto Blessing is a transferable anointing. In its most visible form it overcomes worshippers with outbreaks of laughter, weeping, groaning, shaking, falling, 'drunkenness,' and even behaviours that have been described as a 'cross between a jungle and a farmyard.'"

TACF pastors John and Carol Arnott were initially inspired by the revival in Argentina. As a result of their spiritual hunger for revival in Canada, they invited Randy Clark of St. Louis, Missouri to minister at TACF in January of 1994. Randy Clark had been greatly impacted by the ministry of Rodney Howard-Browne, a South African preacher, founder of the Rodney Howard-Browne Evangelistic Association in Louisville, Kentucky, author of The Touch of God, and the earliest known proponent of the “holy laughter” revival phenomenon in modern times.

The Blessing has proved immensely popular and in recent years, many Christian travellers have come to the TACF to experience it for themselves. Some estimates are as high as 300,000 visitors. The experience is usually deeply affecting and people are often said to leave the services with a renewed zeal for their faith and an overwhelming desire to spread the message. Some visiting pastors have been so affected by the experience that they have taken the message back to their own flocks, sometimes radically transforming the way that services are conducted in their own churches. Areas that have become known for Toronto Blessing revivals worldwide include Pensacola, Florida and Bath, England.

The practice is hotly debated on the Internet and in Christian journals and programs with the doubters expressing fear that Satan has been given free rein to run unchecked through formerly Christian communities. The fact that it can seemingly overtake a whole congregation when the "fit" is on them, spreading almost virally from one person to the next adds urgency to their fears. Some leaders even liken the coming of the Toronto Blessing to a spiritual war, with the Devil gaining ever greater numbers of deceived swooning soldiers by the day.

Believers object just as strongly that it is a revival or renewal of God’s true church, where the Holy Spirit manifests in a way that is directly tangible to the participant. They maintain that it is the coming of a new era, where the new leaders will be raised to prominence and people will be drawn to connect to an experience that is truly Godly. God is ready to be present and alive in the world again, they claim, and the true believers are the ones who can feel his presence among them.

Neutral observers point out that this type of phenomenon is not at all new. Nor is the resistance to the movement by the average churchgoer who may be unfamiliar with religious experience per se. The ability of charismatic leaders to condition mass numbers of people through suggestion is a well-documented psychological phenomenon.

The peak of Toronto Blessing prominence in the Christian community occurred in the mid to late 1990s. Since that time it has faded from public view, although the proponents of Discernment Ministries would suggest that these kinds of events are simply part of a wider theological cycle that has existed continually throughout modern era Pentecostalism / Charismatism.

Studies at the University of Virginia have pointed out that "the beliefs of... the Toronto Blessing are aligned exactly with those of the Latter Rain revival", [1] which indicates that the phenomenon is not unique, but part of an ongoing and cyclical pattern.

In more recent times, the Golden Sword Prophecy from TACF has been spreading amongst Charismatic churches.


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I don't think witches got any thing on Penticostals Id say its inspired by African religions .
I seen a photo in i think it was time magazine (not sure a few years ago) of a demon posessed woman in africa during a tribal dance it looked just like the woman in the penticostal church i seen that night .

Well I did say Voodoo is a blend of african tribal beliefs and roman catholic spirituality.

Being possessed is the same thing I've been saying over and over. The person was mentaly conditioned, and set up to preceive such a thing, and her body acted as it would. *trying hard not to sound like a broken record*

I really don't know what you're trying to proove here. I've already explained over and over the mechanics behind all of this. So either you're just not understanding, or refuse to accept my explinations. If it's the latter... then there's nothing more I can do. If you don't want to accept what I say.. then I really can't do anything more. I'm not here to try and "win" anything. I'm here trying to teach and explain how things work. I'm trying to give people a better understanding on how magics work so there's no more misconceptions or fears.

Black magic??? “Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord...” On the other hand, we all have our sincere prayers. But, sincerity is never magic because it is the most concrete thing known to all of us -- you either feel it deep inside, or you don't. Real magic, not optical tricks, is in the unknowable realm, and one could only judge it for its end result. God, Universe, Force is the mover, the one who fulfills the wish, prayer, mantra..., not the supplicator. Therefore, everyone is a potential shaman, priest, etceteras, in the end. Again, sincerity is the key, but to get there, to dig really deep inside you, is another matter. Some could easily do it without any techniques, help from outside sources..., and others may take many lifetimes just to quiet down one's mind to connect to that energy flow within. Some say that this energy flow is like a direct route to get one's desired result... Also, one's prayer or wish will be tested as well, to basically see how much one really wants the result. Most often than not, the road is more than the asked result, in a negative connotation. One hears this all the time: "This is more than I've bargained for!" Or, "This is not what I want!"

"But this is what you wanted..." -- Julia Cotton

Everything is a double-edged sword. And I've never met a single person in this lifetime who could raise up the dead flesh, heart taken out and all, after it's been buried for several days. I've seen a midnight Tantric practice at a cemetery..., but raising that dead? Never, and only a liar would admit to such a thing. And I really don't want to get into the Jesus/Lazarus trip.[/size]

I know, me to. I have no idea how that worked itself in there, but I figured I'd leave it because I to have had a post go missing, as you have. When you double a post, you know you're on the trend train.

Thanks for the reply. You seem to have a lot of knowlege about magic and mystic beliefs. Thanks for the info.

As a practicing pagan, and a studying shaman... I am all to happy to help.

You are most welcomed, and I hope this all helped you to understand and not fear those of use who practice such things. =)

What about Necromancy? Is it really considered magic or is it just from the imagination of H.P. Lovecraft? If it is real it could be considered the "black" magic I was asking about since it deals with magics involving the dead and the un-dead. Never heard much about anything necro in the modernworld except for necrophiliacs or santophiliacs. Most info on necromancy magic comes from fantasy and like you said movies. But then I have also heard about spells and potions for lycanthropy and shape shifting from medieval history much like were I got most of my knowlege on the vampire. Any thoughts on this.

Necromancy, that necronomicon book.. all from Lovecraft and fantasy games. (Necros in MMOs! Ohnos!)

Like I said.. there is *NO* magic spell that can bring people back from the dead. And the voodoo zombie thing is not magic.. it's knowledge of poisons that will put someone into a "little death" .. where they look dead, but really the poisons have slowed their body and metabolism down greatly. Then will "cast a spell" (which is really just chanting, burning candles, dancing, or what ever else flashy bit they can think of, and give the poisoned person the antidote.) And viola.. instent zombie or even instent ressurection.

And as for Lycanthropy... Ok this is another long winded rant. *chuckles* Let's see if I can shorten it.

Remember when I said you can't change the law of physics and nature? Well unless you're a catapillar or any other form of incect or amphibian or any other animal that evolved in the way of changing from one thing to another... It is *PHYSICALY* impossible for a human being to change into another animal. Now I said Physicaly. That means spells or full moon, or getting angry.. or even at will.. humans cannot shift into a wolf, or a bear, or a cougar(weep), or any other kind of animal.

Any person out there who does believe themself a lycanthrope or therianthope (Lycan is wolf... Therian is .. well everything else.. bear, cat, fox, crow..) And knows how it works, and knows how the culture is.. knows that they cannot physicaly shift into anything. Born human, live looking like a human, and will die human. *chuckles*

There are other "shifting" like mental and spiritual.. and I've kind of touched apon that in one of my posts.. about being pinned down and something inside me taking over because it *hates* being pinned down. And it's felineish.

Alot of these misconceptions I do outright blame people who can't understand that things like "Brotherhood of the wolf" and "Underworld" are simply movies, or movies based on ledgends that someone knew someone that knew someone out in the backwods that saw something one night while drinking to much... They're not fact. There are no undead vampires... there is no one out there that can shift into a half man half wolf creature..

Do I think myself a therianthope? Yeah. There's a reason for the screen name. But again like with magic, it's kept down to a level of reality. I know I can't physicaly shift. I wouldn't even dream trying or decieving myself to the possibility. To be honest.. if one was to shift into a different animal... if the strain on their metabolism doesn't kill them first, the pain deffinatly will. But since it's physicaly impossible in the first place... no need to worry. X)

Thanks for the answers. They are much appreciated. Maybe the cougar (cat) is your animal sign? Ever look into Chinese calendar mythology or Animal spirit guide mythology. In consideration to the Chinese calendar my animal is a rat. Its sounds sad but the rat defenition really describes my personality (to an extent). But I am a cat fan too, large and small. Thanks again.

Heh.. the snake is my chinese astrological sign... aries is the more traditional one... As for the Cougar.. well that's a sacred bond... *grins*

I guess your sacred bond is personal so I wont ask. The only thing close to a bond I ever had with one was when I was stalked by one while goofing off up by my Grandfather's house about eight years ago. Their are some in the area where I live though. I've seen a few and even a few cubs too.

The majority of adult cougars will not attack a human. They know that to attack a human equates death. However the attacks that have occured are usually from a saverely emaciated cat.. or a rather young one who hasn't learned that it's not wise to mess with humans.

When they "stalk" people.. it's usually because humans are in their territory, so they'll keep an eye on them during their patrol of their territory.

Just show them respect.. and give them no reason to think you're dinner.. and you should be fine. X)

Yea, But the martial artist in me has allways pondered if I was attacked could I defend my self? Since I was unarmed at the time and with the surrounding area all there really would have been anything to use for a weapon except for sagebrush. But beside all that, I know what you mean cause I've studied traits of the cougar or mountain lion as most in my area call them. One thing I have allways wanted is a large cat for a "pet". How about you?

Ah.. no. I wouldn't even pressume that one can beat an animal with maybe a couple hundred pounds against them, with more speed and agility then any black belt out there. Not to mention the teeth and claws... an strength thing.. *chuckles*


And no, never as a pet. Large wild animals are just that... wild. You can raise them from a cub.. but they still have the instinct and potential of doing you grevious harm.

Ive allways thought as harm from this point of view. Much like a domestic cat that will scratch and bite when petted the wrong way or when playing around couldn't this be put into the perspective of a large cat when the same is done to them? Of course size is the matter. But couldnt this be the case when large cat owners are attacked?

Anyway besides that, back to questions about magic and black arts. What about curses and the "black" magic used by the occult and Satanists and the such. Could this be called black magic or is it catagorized and defined as something else since I have heard these types refer to their magics as black?

Is martial arts any thing to do with the Spirit world?

Like in the bible a person with a spirit could actually become much stronger ect .

I don't know any thing about it just always suspected real martial arts people the good ones have allowed themselfs to be posessed . Maybe i'm way off on this ,as really don't know .

How much spiritual energy is there to Martial arts ? Or is it all just normal physical stuff ?

Are people with spirits stronger in alot of cases ?

I always wonder just how comman people posessed by spirits is ? sometimes i suspect we meet them daily .

The bible does say we wrestle not with flesh and Blood .

Unlike a domestic cat... a large wild cat's claws can do magor damage. (which is.. already known.. heh)


As for "black magic" satanists... True satanists don't "worship" satan as modern day christians think him as. What they do believe in is change and advasary. (Satan meaning advasary) But you can still get the kiddies and the young adults and older adults who think it's cool or something to think that chanting bible vurses backwards and trying to sacrafice a baby will get them unlimited "evil" power. When really.. sacraficing a baby will just get them a prison sentence. In reality, most of those types also do it for a shock value. They love seeing people panic and get all sorts of upset when they talk about worshipping satan... Having actually worked with a real satanist.. I can tell you, there was nothing evil about it. *chuckles* Besides, Satan is an Ambrahamic faith deity or demon. To lable that pagan, is to lable Judaic, Christianity, and Islamic such.

Occult is just another word for secret or hidden. But pertains to most everything that is magic, astronomininical(big word!), and early science. (Alchamy) Which again goes to the "Magic is neither black or white, good or bad, it just is. And how it is preceived by the individual is how it will be labled." thing again.


Now as for the martial arts question. Now you've hit apon an area I know hardly anything about. *chuckles* Never took a lick of them. Never really studied as well... there was something there that just never sparked my curiosity. However, I have dug up a couple of sites that might help you, Nova.
here
and here

and a premptive look at yoga..
here
and here

X)

I've been in the martial arts for almost nineteen years now and have never taken it as having that type of influence to it except for in fiction and some crazy cult like following of the arts. The spiritual side of martial arts I have allways encountered has to do with Ki or Chi (both the same thing) depending on the dialect or art you study. Ki is a transformation of spiritual energy to a physical manefestation that is used when anyone performs an action in the world. From walking to spliting wood, Ki is the energy you use when doing such. This spiritual energy is described as energy that keeps the world working. It is Kinda a more realistic base of the energy flow of the Force in Star Wars. Another fictional description of Ki would be in the Street Fighter series which is called Haduo. Hadou is the form of Ki that Ken and Ryu use to perform their special moves such as the Hadou-Ken and the Shouru-Ken. Though it is considered mythology and fiction there have been reports and legends about martial artist being able to manefest Ki into a fireball form and attacking with it much like how the Hadou-Ken is used by these Street Fighter characters. But the closest real use of such Ki in martial arts would be when they break through multiple boards or ice blocks or cement blocks without recieving any harm.

Now for possession as a way of becoming a better martial artist seems way out of context to what martial artist philosphy is which is dealt with training to perfection in the arts. To allow possession to become better would be similar to making a deal with the devil or ect. But like I stated there are cult like schools who do speculate that they do have spiritual influence in their skills. One fictional refrence would be the Anime Shaman King. Hope this helps a little and if you have anymore questions I'll be happy to help the best I can.

Any time you create or utilize a tool, be it magic, faith, a base ball bat it can be used for good or for harm. Many a person has used christianity to hurt or abuse or steal, a base ball bat can be used to play a fun game or to cause significant damage to someones person or property. I would emagine magic is the same way. In fact i know it is I have seen it used for good and for bad.

Personally I think it is just one aspect of our universe we do not yet understand. The word Magic gets used for things we cant explalin. It is also important to remember that the early church used it as a way to repress other faiths that the church did not want to contend with...........

i'm just wondering if the power of Chi (if seen shows of it on TV) is the same sort of thing that Penticostals have tapped into . I seen a old man on tv pushing many young men backwards with this power of chi stuff .

Nova...



I had mentioned Chi a while ago here. And no... I can't find that video.. which makes me sad. Chi and the Pentacoastal people are doing the same thing... conditioning the person's mind so that they'll precieve what is wanted. And ofcourse the body will act accordingly.