Hey.. I want to make it very clear that I do not intend to provoc anyone or insult anyone or anything like that by my question. Ok, the question is, and to prove my sincerety I wont quote anything which proves my question unless asked too, how do you cope with the Biblical errors and unscientific facts? Do you ignollege them as being man mistakes? If so then how are they in the Bible since the Bible is supposed to be Gods word and has been inspired by God?
Please if ur going to answer just give a simple answer in ur words I dont want 2 read essays by Christian scholars ;p

I guess the way to cope if to word it that way would be through faith. Faith in a higher being would mean to believe in his word and not to question his power especially the questions not answered. I guess I can relate to this faith thought because throught my life I have experienced many unexplainable things that are in the boundaries of the Christian faith. I could of just had a crazy dream or it could be true encounters and visions from that higher power that I believe is God. No one will know the truth until it is revealed to us. Including my self truth which has been very identical to the Christian faith. So I guess it goes down to having that faith that the faith is true.

Heh, I guess anyone could ask the same about any religious text, not just the Bible. But my opinion is that there are no "biblical errors and unscientific facts", and what some interpret to be errors are in fact only errors in their own understanding of the text. Of course, one who does not believe in the Bible's inerrancy will obviously take a different approach, but that's my view.

I could give an essay-size answer, but since the original poster doesn't want that, I'll leave it there, unless (like him) I'm asked.

Regards, PA

Thanks for your answers, I respect your faith. Paranoid Android, Ive seen some stuff which cant be interpreted as errors and expained as not being errors but, I respect your opinion. So Paranoid u believe the Bible is perfect? Oh and btw, how come the NT originals are in Greek :S Ive always wondered and always forget to ask. Thanks a bunch

To start with alot of the bible errors you claim are not what they appear . like you quote one about a kings name and i myself set down to study it one day and found it was a line of kings with the same name . I myself proved it made sence with more study . There is people that say they can explain just about every one of these so called condratictions .

Things like moses writeing his own death ? well somebody finished the book alot think ezra finished it . We beleave God was capable of preserveing his books in a way that if studied harder the truth would be revealed .

The bible claims to be beleaved you need two witnesses the gospels are 4 witnesses . But in a court of law if all witnesses tell it excatly the same way word for word .A jury then would suspect somebody is leading the witnesses to say what they say . So a little bit different storys is actually what you should have as human beings that are independent witnesses will see it different ,hear it different . ect .

The quran just shows it was done by one man or one bunch of men in one place that talked it over what to write . In a court of Law you would rule out testamony like this as you can easily see somebody is leading the witnesses .

The bible itself says here a little there a little ,line upon line recept upon precept . Its like how Christ would Quote writings of David . That David would probly not understand when he was writing that would make sence after christ tells a little more . Daniel and Revalation fit together like a glove fits a hand written hundreds of years apart . This time barrier Shows a immortal God had a part in it .

The quran all wrote in one place by the testamoney of one man is not safe . your never suppose to just use one witness only a fool would accept one witness and throw out every other witnesses testamony . The witnesses of the Bible can be proven sincere as none did it for the money .they mostly just ended up with worse lifes and ending with marterdom . wisdom would tell you they beleaved their own testamonys .

Im no Bible teacher just a lay member . But i beleave there is bible teachers that can explain every in accuratecy in the bible if given a chance . Real men of God with lifetimes of Study will surprise you and islam .

And if These Men Can explain these so called in accuracys what does that make you? If that Bible is the Word of God almighty and you are making fun of it ,id be carefull man ! . Id atleast here all the sides . You been brought up on Islam . Taught the Bible is wrong . But have you ever really listened to the Other Side?

What kind of a judge is that? Your judgeing from only ever listening to the prosecuter . You think thats the Type Judges God will want?


And yes i have listened to Islam use to set in rooms listening to tapes played . I judged it was False witness .

http://www.tomorrowsworld.org http://www.borntowin.net/newsite/ http://www.gnmagazine.org/

Thats 3 sites muslim where I Beleave you can find real men of God . that can explain bible inacuracys . But after they Do what are you going to do with your quran and your Islam?

What if that Bible Is Gods word ?

The scarry thing for you is going to be when these real men of God start explaining the bible your going to relise that the Christians that taught Mohamed had no Idea of the truth . Like just a Study of the Heaven hell doctrine with these real men of God will show you muhamed had no Idea to the real Truth . None what soever .

Go read Ron Darts Eassay on Hell fire follow him through the bible ,to the greek to the hebrew . You will soon relise the Christians that taught Mohamed never knew .

Well, like I said in another post, the question is, should there even be a Bible, Torah, Koran whatever. Since Moses saw the angel Metatron in the burning bush and not God, is it really Metatron's 613 rules....or God's? Many of the books in the Bible contain man-made rules and opinions of the writer ESPECIALLY in the NT. I take no note of them. I live by God's law, not mans.

So where you finding Gods laws ? personal feelings ? visions? Other people telling you ?

Booming crashing voices ? whats your source?

Well, Muslims are obligated to believe in the otehr revelations i.e the Bible. But they have been unpreserved. I dont want 2 get in a debate about is the bible corrupt because thst just my opinion u know? Ive listened to the other side and my side made more sence. As for the Quran being written by one man or several man, the Quran wasnt authored by anyone. The Quran was not the word of Mohammed claiming to be inspired by God, meaning it was authored by him, the Quran was a verbal revelation not an inspirational one, meaning words were put into Mohammeds mouth. The Quran was authored by literally God. I believe God didnt preserve the Bible not because its a bad thing an dthat CHristians should get mad when I say this but because I believe the Bible was not meant to be for all of mankind and for all times. I believe thats why God didnt see fit to preserve it. God made a promise in the QUran to preserve the Quran and this has been fulfilled and God also said in the Quran that this is a revelation to all of mankind, Jews Arabs whites blacks , everyone.

Look bro, Ive read many alleged mistakes in the Quran and all of them have been proven completely false. But Ive herd many alleged errors in the Bible and many of them have not been proven false so this settles the case for me. (I know what ive said may anger you so I apologize I mean no disrespect).

The problem muslim 99% of christianity is not really from God . You compare Islam to them .

The 3 sites i Just posted I think Have real men of God . Try them , I think Islam will lose .

You don't understand the majority of christianity is a stumbling block to trip you on your pursuit to truth .

Satan is alot better at decieving then you expect in your wildest dreams .

Ill visit them As uve said it 99% of Christianity is a "stumbling block" so why would God allow this to happen to them without sending a messenger? This is one of the reasons I believe he did.

I live by the 613 (or some of them anyway) Mitvahs. But, like I said, who really made those laws?

That is where (I believe, at least) where Faith comes into the equation. One who has devoted themselves to the Muslim Faith has come to the conclusion that the works of Muhamed are indeed the inspired (nay, divine) words of God. A Christian has come to the conclusion that the Bible is the word of God. An Atheist has decided that all ideas of God are false and that God does not exist (or at least, cannot be proven to exist).

I've read the Bible and have not found any contradictions to it (that cannot be explained, at least, lol). I admit to having only limited knowledge of the Koran, though I do own a copy of the text. This question taht you ask is a good one, muslim, and I don't think it will be easily answered. Those who believe will see how the text is not contradictory, and those that do not will see how it is. Whether one or the other is correct, I'm certain we will eventually know for sure (one way or the other). Until then, all we have is that "F" word to go on *I mean "Faith", of course* Until that day comes, all we can do is try and stay true to who we are and live up to where our heart lies.

Regards, PA

So what about the 10 laws that was suppose to be wrote in stone ?

God have his finger on them stone tablets ?

Greek was the trade language of the 1st century.

One of the problems when you study any religous text is that we do not have copies of the origonals. There is not orignoal copy of the Quoran, NT or OT. They have been copyed many times over the years and mistakes work their way into the text. This is where the whole of textual critisiam comes from, comparing texts to try and get to the orignals.

As to why the NT is writen in Greek, That was the language of the empire in which it was writen. There are also copies of it in some other ancheint langueges but greek is the most common.

Personaly I belvie that the bible is the inspired word of God. Not the literal word. Mans faults have worked their way into the text. Also not all of the early Apostles agreed completly on the message of the Gospel, this is why you might find some contradictions in the Epistles, or the letters in the latter part of the NT.
It is also important to remember that these letters were writen to a specific community to adress issues that they were facing, its almost like listing to one half of a telephone conversation.

The conflicts do not negate the truth of the Gospel, the Good News of Christ, that God so loved the world he would become incarante and spread a message of love to the world and defeate the sting of death for all of man kind. God did this out of love, and forgivness and Grace, not because man did anything to deserve it. Part of this understanding is also the understanding that we as people can do nothing to bring about our salvation, it is only by being freed from the chains of sin that we are then able to go out in the world and do Gods work, and follow his Commandments.

Hope this helps to explain a little bit.

Later
PB

We have the originalist copy of the Quran which was revised the most. Thats why we got rid of the others so that we will absolutely 1000% sure its accurate and praise be to God, Allah, it is accurate, and we still have that copy today so no worries here lol. Thanks preacherbill for ur taking part of this discussion

If I remember right there were four scribes listed who wrote it and the works of one of them is totally missing and only the works of the other three are included.
I am guessing that the orginal had its own form of the Four Gospels with four scribes like the Christian bible, but that at the very beginning of Islam a very powerful person into whose hands it must have fallen clearly edited and changed it, as easily seen by the missing works of the fourth scribe.
Because of this I think if a miricle (unlikely) were to occur and a genuine copy of the orginal were found that was somehow hidden away from this powerful person so that it would not be destroyed with the rest, we would find that the orginal Quron and the original writings of the early Christians were much more alike in philosophies than what they are today.

There are translational problems that clear up the errors. Also, there are 212 figures of speech that are employed in the bible. How many do you know? What unscientific facts are you referencing. Bring em on I can dispell all of them.

Excellent question, Muslim. As a former devout Christian, I didn't cope. I stopped calling myself a Christian because to be a true Christian one has to believe that Jesus Christ is 100% PURE GOD, the real Deal, no if nor buts.

I think the bible has been monkied with by the catholic church............so i blame them.

Unlikely, they may have been a bunck of dish wads, but I think they still held the biblical texts as sacred. It's hard for people to understand this nowadays because nothing is sacred. Besides, if you read the Bible there's much that really doesn't bode well for the Catholic church in there, which is why the reformation started btw, so they it seems odd that they should be accused of tampering with it.

KSG

To be quite frank, it doesn't matter what version of the Quran one has. Any way you look at it it falls into the category of "false prophecy" and for what that makes its followers all one has to do is peruse the New Testament.

KGS

Islam has 100% true prophecies my friend unlike what you may have been told. Even the gulf war was prophesiezed by Mohammed peace be upon him, cars , TVs, you name it. I can give u a list of false biblical prophecies. I wont cause this topic was a sincere question so I wont drag it into a debate.

Are you daft or something? The 613 Mitzvahs include the ten commandments, that's what Mitzvahs are commandments, and there are 613 not 10.

Was God's finger on the stone? No.

please tell me where you learned this from....i am interested in reading more about Metatron....where did you learn about the 613 rules?....who posted 613 rules and said they were from God?....where are the rules in the new testament?...i have been searching for the truth in this matter and need your help.

thanks

randomhit10

why is it a Christian can say the same basic things about what we believe and we are called dumb, blind, misled, etc etc.....but some else can say waht they want about their belief and the truth is alive and well????

randomhit10

How do you cope with all the contradictions and errors contained within the Koran?



This is blantantly false. The Koran was written down over a period of some twenty plus years. It was written on whatever could be found--pieces of parchment, stone and even animal bones! Only later, some scholars say as late as the tenth century, was it compiled--and in no particular order.

... The Qur'an is organized into separate chapters called surahs. The order of the surahs, however, does not reflect the chronological order of the Quranic verses, nor does the surah structure reflect the nature of the original Quranic revelation. During his lifetime, Muhammad would have individual verses revealed to him; these revelations occurred unexpectedly and in surprising places. Typically, revelation would put Muhammad in a trance-like state. He, and others, would memorize the revealed verses and, under the guidance of Gabriel, Muhammad organized these verses into the existing surahs. The intervention of Gabriel in ordering the various verses in Islamic history is meant to guarantee not only the sanctity of the individual verses, but the religious validity of the organization of these verses in the Qur'an.

The Qur'an was an oral text throughout the lifetime of Muhammad; it was also a fluid text. The complete text resided only in the memories of Muahmmad and his followers. As he added verses and reorganized the text, his followers would rememorize the text in the light of the additions or edits. This means that the Qur'an was a living text during the lifetime of Muhammad. Certain verses revealed to Muhammad were later repudiated by him as "satanic" verses revealed not by Gabriel but by Satan. These verses were expunged from the text that so many had memorized.

After the death of Muhammad, the text of the Qur'an was written down in the caliphate of Abu Bakr. Until 'Uthman, one and only one written text existed. For over a decade after the death of Muhammad, the Qur'an remained primarily an oral text in the memories of the faithful. In Islamic accounts of the history of the Qur'an, this oral text was entirely faithful to the original verses—this is entirely possible, but Western historians generally agree that some corruptions must have produced slight variations throughout the Islamic world. Nevertheless, the military expansion of Islam led to two direct consequences concerning the integrity of the Quranic text. First, large numbers of the faithful were dying out in the various military expeditions. Each time someone died who had the Quranic text memorized, that meant that one copy of the Qur'an disappeared forever. Second, the expansion of Islam swelled the ranks of the faithful. Many of these new converts spoke other langagues and the original Arabic of the Qur'an began to corrupt. Faced with these two threats to the integrity of the Qur'an, 'Uthman orderd a rescension of the text to be made and to serve as the definitive written version of the text. A rescension is a version of a text that is assembled from all the variant versions of that text. 'Uthman, however, relied on two sources: the written text that had been ordered by Abu Bakr and that still existed, and the various oral texts of Muslims who memorized it during the lifetime of Muhammad. In Islamic history, there is no variation between these two sources, so the Uthmanic "rescension" is largely a codifying of a single version of a text. This version, the 'Uthmanic rescension, is the version of the Qur'an that has remained, unchanged, the central holy text of Islam...

SOURCE: Islamic Studies, Washington State University
http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/ISLAM/ISLAM.HTM

Copied and recopied from various oral and written text[s]. Even Muhammad later repudiated verses he claimed authentic as "satanic" verses revealed not by Gabriel but by Satan. Hardly reliable or coherent--just like the Bible.

Sean

I usually stay off my soap box but i am going to get on it for a little while. It is PC to trash Christians in this world today especially in the good old USA, and many Christians are angry at this. Personally I am looking forward to it. Christianity has always suffered when it is the predominant faith or has no challenges to it. When it became the official state religion of the roman empire it began a long and corrupt spiral. The attacks that Christianity faces today will hopefully cause us to look at what we believe and to relearn how we should properly share the message. We have been lazy as a faith and have stopped spreading the true Gospel in the way were were commanded to by Christ. So I say bring on the criticisms, bring on the pressure, our faith flourishes when we get the pressure. It helped the reformation happen, it helped the early church to spread the Good News of Jesus Christ, and it will either help us Get off our collective buts as Christians or we will fade away. Which ever happens it will be better than the stagnate church we are today. Ok, i will put away the soap box now.

I think the majority of the contradictions in the Bible come from people taking passages completely out of context and yet expecting to be able to then discern the meaning.

Additionally, you can't read the Bible in English, find something that seems to be a contradiction and go with it, since the English versions of the Bible are translations. I am fluent in Spanish. I speak, read, and write it and have functioned professionally as a translator several times. Over the years I've had many great opportunities to see how, even with the best efforts at translation, the overall message may be correctly translated but a great deal of subtext and "color" is best left out.

When I was in the Army, I was stationed in Panama, and had opportunity to go to the movies in Panama City. Most of the movies were subtitled, and I would sometimes read the subtitles. I felt sorry for the people who were trying to follow the storyline through the subtitles because, at best they were missing out on all the jokes that were based on puns--the humor of puns is usually completely lost on translation and sometimes the whole meaning changes leaving the reader completely confused. Any meaning derived from sentence structure is also lost, because sentence structure is different, so subtleties are completely lost. What I noticed was that the more the translator tried to stay literal to the words being spoken, the less the subtitles made sense, and sometimes the poor readers had absolutely no idea what the story was about. The best subtitles were those that completely ignored puns, colloquialisms, most jokes, and most culturally relevant phrases. So, the best subtitles were those that said the least, because although the reader was missing out on all of the subtext, he was at least getting the real meat of the story.

If these kinds of issues occur just in translating conversations, you should have an idea of just how complicated the translation of documents is. The "contradictions" that so many are so quick to point have more to do with the fact that subtleties just don't translate well.

I work with an extremely intelligent man, who reads at least one book a week and is well versed in politics, history, mathematics, theology, sociology, anthropology, and the Bible (he can quote whole books of the Bible from memory and is a walking concordance). He reads Greek, Hebrew, German, and Latin and he finds no real contradictions in the Scriptures, and I have brought him some doozies. But it does take a great deal of research to verify what the author was referring to and what the proper context for the passage is.

I agree. We progressed away from a pilgrimage religion and it is time to progress away from a building based religion. To me if a Christian who can read cannot practice their religion without a church then they are a very, very weak Christian at this point. Buildings and readers were needed for the illiterate masses and some still cannot read in many places. To me the best way to spread the good news is to teach others to read. After that the meaning will either be in their heart or it will not, and no social club church is really going to change that by making that person a member.

amen Bill....keep the soapbox out and ready to use..........

randomhit10

you should post this everywhere....you have hit a sore point square on the head....if you want to understand you have to do the work...
great post.....

randomhit10

There are hundreds of contradictions and errors contained within the scriptures. I wish the fervently religious--and I'm not attacking you personally IAS--would just admit it and say "so what." It was this kind of intellectual dishonesty that led me to start questioning my beliefs in the first place. Jumping through hoops, song and dance, out of context, trying to dispell the blatantly obvious, made me realize that the scriptures simply were not true. Why? If one has to lie in order to forward their faith ... what does that make their faith? For me, a lie.

The Literalist position is a futile one. Simple honesty would save many from fleeing their faith. And, again, this is not a personal attack on you IAS. Just a general observation from a former believer--a Literalist believer. I wish people would have just been honest with me.

Sean

I understand it's not a personal attack, Sean, but you completely ignored everything else I said about the issue of translation.

Well said Sean.....not to mention that there are other beliefs that are far older that the Abrahamic belief, IF there was a real/true Deity/God it would seem that it would be the first one (Deity/God) and the Abrahamic one is not it.

who was the first? and how do you know it was the first?

randomhit10

This is unequivically not true.
History is entirely against this statement.
There were plenty of unitarian Christians long ago and there are still many who live today.
This statement is no different than a Catholic stating that Protestants are not real Christians or a Protestant stating that Catholics are not real Christians, though both are trinitarins.

A Christian believes as Yeshua ben Yoseph believed.
Love God with all your heart, soul, and might, and the way to love God is to do to others what you would have them do to you if you were them.
That is all of it and yet it is so very much more than reciting memorized prayers and performing rituals that really do nothing for anyone other than to give them a false sense of escaping personal responsibility.

We still live in an age when those in power would rather reign in hell than serve in heaven by embracing the concept of full equality for all of mankind.

I read--and just re-read--your post, and I did not ignore anything. You make an excellent point on translation. That said, it just makes it clear that the Bible--and every other holy book--is the work of men and not a deity. Translation should not be a problem if the "word" was truly from a divine source. An omniscient being would know full-well that it in order to communicate with us effectively--and without contradiction--IT must speak to us in a clear audible voice ... or drop ITS "Holy Writ" down from the heavens on indestructible golden parchment, in a universal language no one had ever seen, but could miraculously understand.

This would defiantly end the debate over god's existence--at least for me.

Sean

remember.....

Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.


if you want to hear, you will....you are doing a great job...keep on trying....

randomhit10

Lets see.....go to google and type in 'oldest god' then click the >I'm feeling lucky< button (the search results) or go to the top of the >LIST<

If you want to pick a God from the thousands that there are >HERE YOU GO<

Happy hunting

Many religions are far older ... Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, Atenism et al.

Sean

The ethic of reciprocity or "The Golden Rule" is a fundamental moral principle found in virtually all major religions and cultures, which simply means "treat others as you would like to be treated." It is arguably the most essential basis for the modern concept of human rights. Principal philosophers and religious figures have stated it in different ways:

* "Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself: I am the LORD." — Moses (ca. 1525-1405 BCE) in the Torah Leviticus 19:18 (pertaining here, however, strictly to "thy people", i.e., Hebrews)
* "This is the sum of duty; do naught onto others what you would not have them do unto you." from the Mahabharata (5:15:17) (ca. 500BCE)
* "What you do not wish upon yourself, extend not to others." — Confucius (ca. 551–479 BCE)
* "What is hateful to you, do not to your fellow man." — Hillel (ca. 50 BCE-10 CE)
* "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." — Jesus (ca. 5 BCE—33 CE) in the Gospels, Matthew 7:12 (affirming Moses), Luke 6:31 (extending explicitly to non-Jews)
* "Hurt no one so that no one may hurt you." — Muhammad (c. 571 – 632 CE) in The Farewell Sermon.

source

Confucius said this one as well--long before Jesus.

Sean

And what is the "true Gospel"? Christianity was "wildly diverse" (Lost Christianities, Ehrman, Bart) from the get-go. And what Jesus really said is anybody's guess, for his words were not written down as he spoke them. The Autographs are long lost and the only thing left seems to be The Sayings Gospel Q--which differ in many ways from the words the Evangelists put in Jesus' mouth (The Gospel of Jesus: In Search of the Original Good News, Robinson, James M). In fact, it seems that the Gospel of Thomas--often referred to as the Fifth Gospel--is more reflective of the true sayings of Jesus (Unearthing the Lost Words of Jesus: The Discovery and Text of the Gospel of Thomas, John Dart, Ray Riegert, John Dominic Crossan).

Sean

By definition, you are not Christian if you do not believe Jesus Christ is equal to God and is God. One cannot go around this. Read your "real" Christian bible, and talk to your priest or pastor or minister. Perhaps, it is time for you to face this truth. What are you, a "pagan" Christian?

Why do you not face the truth which is in massive amounts of historical records in many nations and tounges?
You are after all not "The Decider" as to who is or is not a Christian. You may have your personal opinion or denominational opinion and that is all.
I do not expect many trinitarians to recognize "the ancient enemy" as Christian and you should not expect us to change either.

By definition by anyone other than a Trinitarian, I am indeed a Christian.

Which doesn't actually exist.

I don't really have a problem with Q, but I don't understand how one can think they know with any certainty what was in it.

So, you don't believe that Jesus Christ is God or equal to God then? If this is the case, then your brand of Christianity is definitely not on the list. This is now, not the past ARCHAIC tension. I'm sure you know the meaning of "heretic." You might as well call yourself a Jew, Muslim or other pagan label.

I am not the one who appears to be upset with your existence.

Why would I be upset? I am not the one who is a hypocrite. I am 300% heretic in the eyes of true Christians. I'm the one the inquisition would suffer the flames. But you, yeah-yeah-yeah, you are a Christian -- NOT.