Hi,

I'm not sure if this is an Islum question or not, but...

Why are so many terriorist(sp?) led to believe that if they kill and destroy that they will be given 72 virgins?

This does not make any sense to me....why they would believe this so strongly and willingly kill themselves and others.

Why are they so blinded?

Can you help?

That's the big question WM. I'm baffled by both 72 virgins and martyrdom. According to the Koran and Sahih:

Koran ... Sura (Chapter) 56 verses 12- 39: "They shall recline on jewelled couches face to face, and there shall wait on them immortal youths with bowls and ewers and a cup of purest wine (that will neither pain their heads nor take away their reason); with fruits of their own choice and flesh of fowls that they relish. And theirs shall be the dark-eyed houris, chaste as hidden pearls: a guerdon for their deeds... We created the houris and made them virgins, loving companions for those on the right hand..."

AND:

Sahih (also known as the Sunnah, and one of the Sunni six major Hadith collections) ... chapters 781, 782 (The Merit of Jihad and the Merit of Martyrdom) ... "By the Being in Whose Hand is my life, I love that I should be killed in the way of Allah; then I should be brought back to life and be killed again in His way..."; "The Prophet said, 'Nobody who enters Paradise will ever like to return to this world even if he were offered everything, except the martyr who will desire to return to this world and be killed 10 times for the sake of the great honour that has been bestowed upon him'."

Sean

Muslim has probably given up speaking to us, maybe our questions have become too difficult...

WOW!!!

I'm blown away.

Thanks

hello WM
I like this post..do have to admit I haven't read this yet in its entirety, but in seems to be a constructive thread at the start(hope all the way) I think the way our Muslim friends in the Detroit (u.s.) area have decided to try to resolve the residual animosity between Shiite/Suni ethnicities within their own communities may become a model for a new middle east mind set, well maybe in some Iraqi neighborhoods to start.....B


Islam=not evil
Christianity=not evil
Judaism=not evil

Evil=evil
BH

I would like to say that I am suprised at how many Americans think that if you believe in the Koran (I'm a Christian) that your a terrorist. It is the Extremeists that are the terrorists. I hate it when people are ignorant like that.

Jor-el.

Iblis (Satan) was a Jinn but had the status of an angel thus when God commanded the angels he was included but refused thus God punished him.

Sean, how about you ask a Muslim scholar himself?
Here are two sites where u can send ur questions anything abut Islam and theyll answer you. Ask him is this Alexander the Great? What do our scholars have to say about this? Why cant we say this is Aexander the great or can we? And see for yourself.

http://www.islamtoday.net/english/fatawa_form.cfm
http://www.islamqa.com/index.php?ln=eng&pg=fbqa

they usually take maybe one-two weeks to reply sometimes faster.
As for the martydrom in Islam. As I said war is fought either in self defence or in order to help the opressed. This is an honorable death dying for a good cause like defending your country or rescuing people. As for the 72 virgins, thats in a week hadith which means we're not very sure about this.

Provide me a true academic source, and I'd be happy to. Unfortunately, you can't. What you did provide me with, was a site dedicated to Islamic apologetics. In there "About Us" section, they state the following:

2. The website strives to present Islam according to the prophetic methodology and stay free from all forms of innovation and corruption.

Intellectual dishonesty at its highest. Try again.



I provided numerous resources, articles and links regarding this issue. The overwhelming opinion of scholars agree that Dhu'l-Qarneyn ("The Two-Horned Lord") is Alexander the Great. You are in the minority and refuse to recognize it. So be it.



Once again you are showing your lack of knowledge concerning your own religion. The reward for good Muslims is found in the Koran, Hadith and Sunnah (i.e. Sunan)--which, by the way, is a book considered as an "indispensable work" (USC, Compendium of Muslim Texts) by Muslim scholars (M. M. Azami, Studies in Hadith Methodology and Literature). The number of virgins is not specificaly stated in the Koran--though it is in both the Hadith and Sunnah. It is now a widely held belief.

What of the rewards in paradise? The Islamic paradise is described in great sensual detail in the Koran and the Traditions; for instance, Koran sura 56 verses 12 -40 ; sura 55 verses 54-56 ; sura 76 verses 12-22. I shall quote the celebrated Penguin translation by NJ Dawood of sura 56 verses 12- 39: "They shall recline on jewelled couches face to face, and there shall wait on them immortal youths with bowls and ewers and a cup of purest wine (that will neither pain their heads nor take away their reason); with fruits of their own choice and flesh of fowls that they relish. And theirs shall be the dark-eyed houris, chaste as hidden pearls: a guerdon for their deeds... We created the houris and made them virgins, loving companions for those on the right hand..."

One should note that most translations, even those by Muslims themselves such as A Yusuf Ali, and the British Muslim Marmaduke Pickthall, translate the Arabic (plural) word Abkarun as virgins, as do well-known lexicons such the one by John Penrice. I emphasise this fact since many pudic and embarrassed Muslims claim there has been a mistranslation, that "virgins" should be replaced by "angels". In sura 55 verses 72-74, Dawood translates the Arabic word " hur " as "virgins", and the context makes clear that virgin is the appropriate translation: "Dark-eyed virgins sheltered in their tents (which of your Lord's blessings would you deny?) whom neither man nor jinnee will have touched before." The word hur occurs four times in the Koran and is usually translated as a "maiden with dark eyes".

Two points need to be noted. First, there is no mention anywhere in the Koran of the actual number of virgins available in paradise, and second, the dark-eyed damsels are available for all Muslims, not just martyrs. It is in the Islamic Traditions that we find the 72 virgins in heaven specified: in a Hadith (Islamic Tradition) collected by Al-Tirmidhi (died 892 CE [common era*]) in the Book of Sunan (volume IV, chapters on The Features of Paradise as described by the Messenger of Allah [Prophet Muhammad], chapter 21, About the Smallest Reward for the People of Paradise, (Hadith 2687). The same hadith is also quoted by Ibn Kathir (died 1373 CE ) in his Koranic commentary (Tafsir) of Surah Al-Rahman (55), verse 72: "The Prophet Muhammad was heard saying: 'The smallest reward for the people of paradise is an abode where there are 80,000 servants and 72 wives, over which stands a dome decorated with pearls, aquamarine, and ruby, as wide as the distance from Al-Jabiyyah [a Damascus suburb] to Sana'a [Yemen]'."

Sean

Hi Muslim

I have an interesting question for you. Muslims pray in direction of Kaaba. What direction are you suppose to pray lets say if you are not on earth like on a space station.

Seanph by reading your posts you claim to know more about islam. May you are a muslim. Maybe we should be turning to you about knowledge about islam. Or you are just being a nuisance. If you are genuinely interested about islam ask questions dont
go about your indiscriminate bashing and senseless propaganda.

If there are muslims out there who refute your postings than you go on to say you guys are all wrong and i am right. "you guys dont even know about your own religion"

like i suggested above it means either of 2 things.

1. Your knowledge of islam is far more superior than all the actual muslims visiting this forum
or
2. You just are inherently biased and will make up things to support your argument or will look up information from tabloid or hate(anti islamic) sites to support it.

By the way you are very good at clicking copy and paste.

May I ask, where exactly in the Quran is this, so that you can substantiate your answer?

Please give me your source for such an interpretation, which I may say is nonsensical. Either one is an angel or one is not. This isn't a title like Caliph or king or even prince. It is a type of being.

Can you say an antelope is a lion or a monkey is a person?

These are types of physical beings, just as there are different types of spiritual beings. An angel cannot be something else and something else cannot be an angel or even have the status of one, that is like saying that we can promote a gorilla to a human being.

A further question, do you know how to read and speak arabic?

I am a serious student of Islam--and very much a beginner. I have a long way to go and in no way a "know it all". If you are interested in learning more about Islam, here is where I have begun ...

Islam, Washington State University
http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/ISLAM/CONTENTS.HTM

Islamic History Sourcebook, Fordham University
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/islam/islamsbook.html

Islamic Tradition, Rutgers University
http://virtualreligion.net/vri/islam.html

Compendium of Muslim Texts, University of Southern California
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/

Texts:

Quranic Studies: Sources and Methods of Scriptural Interpretation by John Wansbrough and Andrew Rippin
The Koran: A Very Short Introduction (Very Short Introductions) by Michael Cook
Muhammad (Past Masters) by Michael Cook
What the Koran Really Says: Language, Text, and Commentary" by Ibn Warraq
Islamic Mysticism: A Secular Perspective by Ibn Al-Rawandi



First, I am not bashing anyone. Second, don't come here making bold claims that you can't back up. Both you and Muslim have made grandiose claims about Islam ... and every time the hard questions get asked, you both start crying foul.



If I make an argument, it is because I feel I am correct and the facts support said argument. You are aware that this is a forum for debate? Numerous viewpoints will be offered and argue for. If it bothers you, leave.



And in those instances, I believe that I was correct. If you feel I was incorrect, show me where and let's debate it.



Your words, not mine. Wholly absurd. I am a beginning student of Islam, its origins and evolution.



You keep making this asanine tabloid comment. Twice I have asked you to show materials I have posted that may be incorrect, and twice you have failed to do so. So, again, what information did I post that you feel to be false?



I do my homework, research everything thoroughly. And every time I make an argument, I bolster that argument with facts, links and quotes so those reading know the information is from a solid source, can look it up for themselves. No different then writing a research paper for a history class. Always provide sources.

Sean

Good to know that have a beginners interest in islam and would like to know more.

The first book you should read is

THE QURAN!

If you are interested in books written by western authors

Here is a very interesting book written by a french surgeon

The Bible, The Qur'an and Science
by Dr. Maurice Bucaille

There is an internet link

http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Books/MB_BQS/default.htm

Go through it and lets see what you think about the content of this book.

If you are truly impartial and thorough in seeking knowledge about islam you are not going to be selective in what you read are you?

Why exactly?



The Quran says that they will have "Hor" it doesnt say how many. Hor can be a man or a woman and can be female or male and. As I told you, the hadith you quoted about them being 72 is a weak hadith. You do know that hadiths are different some are saheeh i.e scholars said that it is correct. Some are tha eef which means weak i.e that we're not sure about this and we have hassan which means its in the middle. What you quoted is a weak hadith, the least accurate one.




Lol, any direction. Nottice in air planes Muslims generally pray in their seats, same thing. In Islam you're judged by you intention. If you've tried to figure out where the kabah is then all is good




Behold! We said to the angels, "Bow down to Adam": They bowed down except Iblis. He was one of the Jinns, and he broke the Command of his Lord. Will ye then take him and his progeny as protectors rather than Me? And they are enemies to you! Evil would be the exchange for the wrong-doers! (018.050)

Theres actualy an article about him in wikepedia . Man, they have an article about everything.




Why do you ask?

More than a beginners interest. My intent, and I am studying hard toward this aim, is to have a thorough working knowledge of Islam.



The first book should be a text on how to read the Quran. That is why I have started with Quranic Studies: Sources and Methods of Scriptural Interpretation by professors John Wansbrough and Andrew Rippin. From there I will read The Koran: A Very Short Introduction (Very Short Introductions) by professor Michael Cook and What the Koran Really Says: Language, Text, and Commentary by Ibn Warraq. I will go from there.



East, West ... and Muslim scholars as well.



The Bible, The Qur'an and Science:

It was only when I examined the text very closely in Arabic that... I had to acknowledge the evidence in front of me: the Qur'an did not contain a single statement that was assailable from a modern scientific point of view.

You have recommended a book written to promote Islam. It has nothing to do with proper scholarship. I have no interest in apologetics.

Here is a refutation of Dr. Bucaille's "work" entitled The Qur'an and the Bible in the light of history and science by Dr. William Campbell:

The Qur'an and the Bible in the light of history and science
http://www.answering-islam.de/Main/////Cam...l/contents.html

Two silly apologists going at it--both intellectually dishonest.



Apologetics + Impartiality = Oxymoron

Apologetics has nothing to do with proper scholarship. I've been down that long and winding road with Christianity. Never again. Give me materials written by academics and taught in universities--or at least texts with exhaustive source lists, extensive documentation--including materials that Muslims themselves consider reliable.

Now, for the third time, please answer my question ... You keep making this asanine tabloid comment. Three times I have asked you to show materials I have posted that may be incorrect, and twice you have failed to do so. So, again, what information did I post that you feel to be false?

Sean

You don't see why? "Stay free from all forms of innovation ..." D'OH!



I clearly pointed that out.



Again ...

What of the rewards in paradise? The Islamic paradise is described in great sensual detail in the Koran and the Traditions; for instance, Koran sura 56 verses 12 -40 ; sura 55 verses 54-56 ; sura 76 verses 12-22. I shall quote the celebrated Penguin translation by NJ Dawood of sura 56 verses 12- 39: "They shall recline on jewelled couches face to face, and there shall wait on them immortal youths with bowls and ewers and a cup of purest wine (that will neither pain their heads nor take away their reason); with fruits of their own choice and flesh of fowls that they relish. And theirs shall be the dark-eyed houris, chaste as hidden pearls: a guerdon for their deeds... We created the houris and made them virgins, loving companions for those on the right hand..."

One should note that most translations, even those by Muslims themselves such as A Yusuf Ali, and the British Muslim Marmaduke Pickthall, translate the Arabic (plural) word Abkarun as virgins, as do well-known lexicons such the one by John Penrice. I emphasise this fact since many pudic and embarrassed Muslims claim there has been a mistranslation, that "virgins" should be replaced by "angels". In sura 55 verses 72-74, Dawood translates the Arabic word " hur " as "virgins", and the context makes clear that virgin is the appropriate translation: "Dark-eyed virgins sheltered in their tents (which of your Lord's blessings would you deny?) whom neither man nor jinnee will have touched before." The word hur occurs four times in the Koran and is usually translated as a "maiden with dark eyes".

Two points need to be noted. First, there is no mention anywhere in the Koran of the actual number of virgins available in paradise, and second, the dark-eyed damsels are available for all Muslims, not just martyrs. It is in the Islamic Traditions that we find the 72 virgins in heaven specified: in a Hadith (Islamic Tradition) collected by Al-Tirmidhi (died 892 CE [common era*]) in the Book of Sunan (volume IV, chapters on The Features of Paradise as described by the Messenger of Allah [Prophet Muhammad], chapter 21, About the Smallest Reward for the People of Paradise, (Hadith 2687). The same hadith is also quoted by Ibn Kathir (died 1373 CE ) in his Koranic commentary (Tafsir) of Surah Al-Rahman (55), verse 72: "The Prophet Muhammad was heard saying: 'The smallest reward for the people of paradise is an abode where there are 80,000 servants and 72 wives, over which stands a dome decorated with pearls, aquamarine, and ruby, as wide as the distance from Al-Jabiyyah [a Damascus suburb] to Sana'a [Yemen]'."



Yes, I am familiar with the collections of ahadeeth. There are six canonical Hadith compilations if I'm not mistaken--at least amongst Sunni's. Shi'a Muslims may differ in their acceptance. That said, I quoted from both the Hadith and the Surrah--a book considered as an "indispensable work" (USC, Compendium of Muslim Texts) by Muslim scholars (M. M. Azami, Studies in Hadith Methodology and Literature).

Sean

Hi Muslim, quick question... during the Hajj, do all muslims make the pilgramage to mecca or just a certain sect of islam (shia, sunni, kurd)? I know they have somewhat different beliefs, just a little curious. im asking because we hear alot of things about how shia's dont get along the the sunni"s and so on and so forth.

Your comments are truly laughable.

You are contradicting your own statements. On one side you claim you want to have a thorough knowledge of a certain topic. The next thing you are saying you want to pick and choose your information. In essense you wanto only look at sites or sources that go against a certain topic whereas you even refuse to even visit sites that promote a certain topic.

I dont know what type of education you posses but your analysis and research is deeply flawed. The reason is you are biased in your research from the get go.

Nothing you say can be trusted from a scientific and scholarly prespective.

You claim you examined the Quranic text very closely. Do you even know how to read arabic or you just made that statement up.????

If you have a serious question word it in a statement next time. Dont go copying and pasting your asanine tabloid research.

We can go from there and analyse your question scientificaly and academicaly looking at the proper reputable resources. After all this is what you want right?

As a Muslim do you take every word in the Quran as fact?
Do you believe that killing Jews, Christians, and non-believers is the only way to reach heaven?
Do you believe that by murder you'll get to go to heaven and be treated to 72 virgins?
Do you believe it's your duty as a Muslim to convert all non-Muslims?
Do you respect other religions, such as Christianity, or Judaism?
What is your take on Jihad?
Where do you think Muslim extremists that blow up innocent men women and children go after death?
What do you think the main reason for the rise in Muslim violence and extremism is?

Sorry if these questions seem harsh, but I would really like to know the answers to these questions, and honestly mean no offense.

peace

p.s. disreguard the 72 virgin question, I found the answer above. thx.

1. Yes
2. No
3. No
4. No
5. Yes
6. Take on Jihad. Its a good thing.
7. If somebody commits a crime fate of a person is to be decided by God after death. Before death i can say such people who commit such heinous crimes should be sent to the gallows.
8. The reason for rise in violence? It think its due to economic decline poverty and lack of scientific achievement. Moral wise is think its lack of belief in ones true values.

Feel free to post more questions. Your questions were very simple.




9.

Thanks for clearing up those questions Mainpoint.
I live in a small town with no Muslims and the only information I get about Muslims comes from my television.
You've given me a much clearer understanding of the Muslim faith, and it's much appreciated.
You've given me hope for mankind. God bless you.

Innovation, meaning the entering of something into the religion of Islam which wasnt there at the time of Mohammed. Whats wrong with that?! Thats the way religion should be. We cant add something to Christianity which wasnt there at the time of Jesus. And we cant add something to Islam which wasnt there at the time of Mohammed.
As for the link you quoted of Dr William Cambell, he got squashed in a debate with Dr Zakir Naik with Zakir showing that every single point he made was wrong. If ur interested in watching the debate tell me and Ill get u the link God willing.




No, during the Hajj everyone goes at the same time. Be him black or white, rich or poor, American or Arab, we all go at the same time. Its the beauty of Hajj. Its disregarding everything except for God and going to Him. Race doesnt matter, which sect you follow doesnt matter, nothig matters except for God. The Hajj could have been divided as this year for the Arabs, the next for the Americans and so forth and that way the croudness would decline since eqach year millions go, but it wasnt. That way we learn how to get along with all people and feel in harmouny with all of us thinking about only one thing, God.

Thanks for the info!!

Ditto.



What a hypocrite! The only thing you have offered is apologetic sources and nothing else. And the texts and sources I'm choosing are academic texts. Again ...

Islam, Washington State University
http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/ISLAM/CONTENTS.HTM

Islamic History Sourcebook, Fordham University
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/islam/islamsbook.html

Islamic Tradition, Rutgers University
http://virtualreligion.net/vri/islam.html

Compendium of Muslim Texts, University of Southern California
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/

Texts:

Quranic Studies: Sources and Methods of Scriptural Interpretation by John Wansbrough and Andrew Rippin
The Koran: A Very Short Introduction (Very Short Introductions) by Michael Cook
Muhammad (Past Masters) by Michael Cook
What the Koran Really Says: Language, Text, and Commentary" by Ibn Warraq
Islamic Mysticism: A Secular Perspective by Ibn Al-Rawandi



Again, you epitomize hypocrisy! And I visited the sites you offered. As expected, they had nothing to do with proper scholarship. A total joke! Nothing but apologetic intellectually dishonest rubbish! Check the links on Islamic Studies provided above.



Bc.S. (Bachelor of Science) degree from Ball State University.
Majors: Classics and History.
Minor: American Studies.
Area of Study: Greco-Roman Culture, Early Christianity, Middle Ages.
Departmental Honors in History.

You?



Again, blatant hypocrisy! You know nothing of proper research techniques--at all! Apologetics is all your interested in--nothing more! And I have listed ALL my sources--each being from leading universities and/or Islamic exegetes.



What information that I posted was incorrect?



I stated quite clearly that I am beginning my studies.



What?! When did I ever say I could read Arabic?! I must use an English translation. Before I do that, I want to have a thorough understanding of sources and methods so I can interpret scripture properly. That is why I am reading Quranic Studies: Sources and Methods of Scriptural Interpretation by professors John Wansbrough (professor of Semitic studies and pro-director of London University's School of Oriental and African Studies) and Andrew Rippin (professor of religious studies at the University of Calgary)!



For the fifth time, what information that I posted was incorrect? Or are you just going to continue to make false statements and run when called on it?!



You wouldn't know a proper academic source if it hit you in the head!

Sean

I actually did some work for a muslim"council" in chicago in the late part of 05 , after the initial ( natural) discomfort, I really connected with these people, in fact I almost feel like I was MEANT to meet these people based one some post 9-11 "venting" that I did.... kind of makes one a little more sympathetic to michael(Kramer)richards...peace!.......b







"barek actually did some work"... ha ha ha

What it means is to apply modern techniques to examine texts--Textual Criticism being the most important. To let a religious text go unchallegened is a grave mistake. Fortunately, scholars are finally examining the Koran using Historical Method--shunning fears of retribution. This will open up the field of Islamic Studies--as Christianity was in the 1800's--and shed new light on a once taboo subject.

TEXTUAL CRITICISM
http://www.textualcriticism.com/



I completely disagree. All religions should be critically examined. If we do not question authority ... where does that leave us? Some place very frightening.



But it has--particularly with regards to Christianity. When Biblical scholars began to examine the scriptures using textual criticism, a whole new world opened up. The historical Jesus came alive ... as did the Bible. Today we have a whole new perspective on Christianity. Scholarship abounds! It's incredible and exciting! This is starting to happen with Islam now. And it's long over do.



I posted that link simply to show how apologists--both Christian and Islamic--go about there dishonest song and dance, trying to prove their religion to be true. It was such dishonesty that made me begin to question my faith in the first place.



Thank you, but no. I am intimately familiar with apologetics. It is nothing more than a horse and pony show.

Sean

Seanph,
It's painful to watch you disrespecting other people's beliefs and telling them what they "really" believe based on studies written in the West. You would find it painful if members of other religions did the same with your (apparent) christian beliefs. Don't you know when you've reached the line of where your desire to argue undermines your own credibility in the discussion?

I'm not a Christian, nor am I "disrespecting" anyone. And I have told not a soul what to "believe." I would never do such a thing. To each his own. That said, I have engaged both Muslim and Mainpoint in debate after they both began making grandiose claims about Islam. If you're going to do that, be prepared to answer the tough questions. This is a forum for debate. I would be asking the same questions if the topic was dedicated to Christianity.

Just an aside here ... This discussion would have ended long ago if not for Mainpoint. He has repeatedly accused me of posting false information. When asked to cite said information, he has refused to do so. This is the fifth time I have asked him.



I am doing my damnedest to learn about Islam from a historical perspective, and I'm doing so from trusted academic sources dedicated solely to Islamic Studies. You can examine them for yourself. If there is something you disagree with, please let me know.



I have absolutely no desire to bicker. What I would like, is to have my questions answered. This thread is entitled "Ask a Muslim, Ask me about Islam" is it not?

So yeah its the same God Allah comes from the word Elah which mens "a god". "The God" in Arabic is Allah. So thats all their is to it.

The concept of God in Islam is summarized in this sura (chapter)



[size="4"][/size] Allah was the supreme, though NOT SOLE, deity in Arabia before the arrival of Islam. He lived, together with other deities, in the heaven and was said to have created the earth and bestowed water on it. the Phrophet Muhammad adopted Allah as the one true God, to whom total submission was due and claimed it blasphemous to worship any other deity. source: The Ultimate Encyclopedia of Mythology.

My question is: did Muhammad just take this god (who is prevelant in the Mythology of ancient Arabia) and decide to make up his own religion, blending the beliefs of the chrisians and jews? how do you explain that Allah suddenly became the 'sole' deity? where did the other gods go then? It's like the Pharaoh Akhenaten deciding to suddenly throw out all the other gods of the Eyptian pantheon and to only worship the 'Aten'

What you're asking is that why did God become the sole deity all of a sudden? Allah means God its as simple as that. Mohammed preacheda religion of pure monotheism. The Arabs at that time were Pagans. They believed in God, Allah in arabic, and they knew that God was up in heaven but they also worshiped the idols. They had a very weird belief system. What Mohammed was commanded to do is to preach to them the worship of God who is in heaven, the same Jewish God the same Christian God, and let go of statues and other gods which they the Arabs created themselves. Mohammed never was a pagan, he always worshipped God alone without any partners. What you're asking is like why did Abraham suddenly start preaching for people to believe in God and where did the other gods go? Allah isnt a god, it is the God in the Arabic language. Arab Christians say Allah when reffering to God, Arab Jews say Allah too when reffering to God and of course Muslims too.

Now I'm even more confused..... but thanks for trying to help me understand. My cousin is married to a Muslim and I really want to be able to understand him.

Ok Sean, so your question is? You're right some Muslim scholars long long long ago believed dhul qarnain was alexander the great and now they dont, whats your point? That Muslim scholars make mistakes? We dont claim to be guided by the Holly Spirit, we are humans and can make mistakes. We've been going on and on for a long time simply about this same topic where this discussion should be very short really. History has shown us it couldnt be alexander, so its not alexander, simple as that.

lol wait.. u asked why did Mohammed start preaching the worship of God alone without any partners and to command people not to worship idols? Is this it?

How about we just agree to disagree, Muslim? Fair enough?

I have read mixed messages in articles about women in mosques. Are women allowed to pray in mosques as well, beside or behind the male? Not in a basement or separating them from the men by putting a wall between the two sexes? And if women aren't allowed to pray in certain/mosques, why is that?

Are you forgiven if you miss a certain prayer time, or are late for a certain prayer time?

For the seventh time, MP, what information that I posted was incorrect? Or are you just going to continue to make false statements and run when called on it?!

Sean

Yet my question stands unanswered, Muslim.

Why did God punish Iblis, if he wasn't an Angel? He only asked the Angels to bow down, did he not?

If Iblis was a Jinn, he had no business bowing to Adam since he was not asked to do so. You stated that Iblis was given the status of an Angel, and I say that is like giving a Gorilla Human status, one cannot have the status of an Angel if one is not an Angel.

That's like some people believing that really good people, especially babies and children become little angels with wings when they die. It is hogwash.

Each of us, whether Human, Jinn or Angel cannot become something else or even have the staus of something else, something is not right in this interpretation of yours.

As for my question regarding Arabic, you still haven't satisfactorilly answered that supposed bad english translation regarding the Pharoah.

I wanted you to read it in Arabic and give me your personal translation into English...

10:90
And We brought the Children of Israel across the sea, and Pharaoh with his hosts pursued them in rebellion and transgression, till, when the (fate of) drowning overtook him, he exclaimed: I believe that there is no God save Him in Whom the Children of Israel believe, and I am of those who surrender (unto Him). The Pharaoh became a Muslim to avoid being drowned by Allah.

10:91
What! Now! When hitherto thou hast rebelled and been of the wrong-doers ? (10:90-92)
Though the Pharaoh submitted to Allah before he drowned, Allah did not accept him, but saved his body to be a sign for those who think they can slip by with a last-minute conversion.
Was Pharaoh drowned or saved?

10:92
But this day We save thee in thy body that thou mayst be a portent for those after thee. Lo! most of mankind are heedless of Our portents

As I said before, "saved in thy body" is equivalent to saved to live. Thus according to the passage, the Pharoah survived, to show Gods power.

Don't hold your breath Jor-el, these guys will not answer, except to tell us how we are
a - biased
b - laughable
c - ignorant

And if its a really, really tough question, they tell you "read the qu'ran. In arabic."


By Hel, they couldn't even answer "yes" or "no" to questions regarding whether or not certain verses were in their holy book.

But, they assure us they are open minded and open to questions...........

Ok If you are so clueless

For starters let see look at some of the statements you have posted so far

"Muslim converts turned to Islam because it promised an Arab state based on conquest, rape and pillage"

"Did those who perpetrated the 9-11 attacks receive 72 virgins in heaven for their "sacrifice" ... or something else?
This has come up before, and the Muslim response was "It's true!" Can you believe such things? God is the caretaker of a universal brothel! It baffles my mind."

"What of the rewards in paradise? The Islamic paradise is described in great sensual detail in the Koran and the Traditions"

Here is what you wrote in response to someone who refuted your claim

"You don't even know your own religious texts ... and you're pointing the finger at me?! If you had actually read the article I posted, you would know the answer. Unfortunately, you just skipped it and made uninformed remarks concerning materials I have posted. Typical of the fervently religious. Jump to conclusions and point the finger".

After going through your postings they reek of hatred and islamophobia.

All the above bold statements are a joke and any sensible person even a non muslim can see through them.

The problem i have with you posting these type of inaccurate statements is that you may spread hatred towards others.

There have been many a hate crimes commited in predominantly non muslim countries towards muslims because of above posted type of misconceptions.

Muslims or Non Muslims human nature is the same. And hate crimes is a reality.

Most decent and smart humans can discern right from wrong.

But there are many crazy people out there who may take your word seriously.

Deat JMPD1

I am around. I havent had the time to go through the translation i have at home. i told you which translation i had at home though. Busy at work. Ill post an answer soon if someone else can do it before me i wont. You asked whether some verses were in the Quran or not right. Those verses were pasted by Jorel. What i recommended before was that you dont have to wait for an answer from me you can just look up the information yourself.

regards

Hi EmpressStarXVII

Men and women pray separately. Both can pray in a mosque. But the congregation is separate, although they pray at the same time. AS an example like the mosque i go to woman section is to the right men section is to the left. Prayer in islam involves physical action. There are no seats in prayer section of the mosque. Not many muslim women choose to go to the mosque to pray though. The main reason i think is that the rules for women are much more flexible for praying. Actual praying is the same if you do it in a mosque or at the home. At the mosque you do it in a congregation basically which is praying in a synchornous fashion.

Some muslims dont miss a single prayer and even if they do they make up for it later. So yes you can make up for a lost prayer. I have seen some muslims just pray Friday to Friday. Some pray as many times as possible. Some just pray once in a blue moon!

God is forgiving in islam. The basic philosophy of one praying is that you are 1 to 1 with God at the moment of prayer.

wow, I am impressed. According to the sources I've read, the right is the favored side of Allah.



I am quite impressed with your Mosque's forward attitude in placing the women of your congregation on the right hand of Allah. Well done!

I gave you an answer. You dont have to like it. He had the status of an angel thus when God would command angels the command would be to him too.



No it isnt. It isnt equivalent to saved to live. What you are reading is a translation. The original, the Arabic, shows that it is metaphorical, scholars have said the same thing and the hadiths too which are the sayings of Mohammed.




Lol. I think we agreed to disagree the first time we ever spoke

Men in Islam have to pray in the mosque no matter what. Woman on the other hand, are not obligated to. Since woman usually have more work then the husband, she takes care of the kids etc it would be tiring for the woman to pray in the mosque and be obligated to. She can if she wants. But she doesnt have to. Yes the men and woman are seperated. They are allowed to pray behind the male not besind or in front. This isnt because she isnt repected. Its so that both the male and the female will focuse on there prayers instead of maybe looking at each other. Since the way of the Muslim prayer is intimate also, shoulders have to touch of those who are praying and when they prostrate if a man is prayig next to a woman he may get distracted so to avoide such a thing they are seperated.



It depends on why. If ur parents ask u to do somethng it ok to be late to the prayer. God is mercifull He forgives all sins but it all depends on your intention in Islam. If u miss a prayer and truly regret it God willing He will forgive u.

Im glad you're impressed maybe this will impress you too, woman, western woman, American woman, canadian woman, are converting to Islam twice as much as men. Hmm I wonder why.

Where did I make such a statement?! I did not! This was a snippet of a statement made by professor Patrica Cone--and something you yanked completely out of context! Yes, folks, finally a perfect example of a statement being taken OOC! Here is the text in-full. Please notice the rebuttal provided by a Muslim scholar. Both sides of the argument are offered ...

... It is easy to see why the work of the "new historians" causes such offence in some Muslim circles, and there is no doubt that much of what they say is deeply provocative. In 1987, two years before Ayatollah Khomeini issued a fatwa condemning Salman Rushdie to death for blasphemy, Patricia Crone, then based at Oxford, wrote the following words about Allah and Mohammad, His earthly messenger: "Mohammad's God endorsed a policy of conquest, instructing his believers to fight against unbelievers wherever they might be found. In short, Mohammad had to conquer, his followers liked to conquer, and his deity told him to conquer."

In Meccan Trade and the Rise of Islam, Crone argued that the early Muslim converts turned to Islam because it promised an Arab state based on conquest, rape and pillage. "God could scarcely have been more explicit. He told the Arabs that they had a right to despoil others of their women, children and land, or indeed that they had a duty to do so: holy war consisted in obeying."

Ziauddin Sardar is one of the few Muslim intellectuals genuinely to have engaged with the new historians. He has called their work "Eurocentrism of the most extreme, purblind kind, which assumes that not a single word written by Muslims can be accepted as evidence". Writing in the aftermath of the Rushdie affair, Sardar placed the western revisionists firmly in the post-colonial orientalist camp, from where colonial "experts" have consistently told Muslims that they know best about the origins of their primitive, barbarian religion. "The triumphant conclusion of Crone and Cook," he says, "was that Islam is an amalgam of Jewish texts, theology and ritual tradition."

And please note ... Rape, pillage and conquest was the norm amongst the ancients! It was not unique to Islam, Christianity nor any other religion or culture! Anyone even remotely familiar with Classics would be aware of this. Take a gander at any ancient civilization (or their "holy text") ... and you will see the exact same thing--rape, pillage and conquer! Muhammad waged war as did Moses! Sad, but true.

So how/why is this an inaccurate statement?



A legitimate question. This is what they were promised. This is also a widely held belief. Why is this an issue? And please note that I used a "?" to denote that this was not a statement of fact; it was a question. Pay attention and do not make something out of nothing.

So how/why is this an inaccurate statement?



Again, a legitimate statement and a widely held belief. Captainx32, a member (former?) of this board from Pakistan, affirmed this belief. Why is this troubling for you? It is affirmed in the Koran, Hadith, and Sunnah.

So how/why is this an inaccurate statement?



And?! It is described in the Hadith and Sunnah as well. Why is this an issue? Why do you take offense at beliefs your fellow Muslims hold dear?

So how/why is this an inaccurate statement?



First, "Dr Haisook" (a Muslim) refuted nothing. He just tossed about baseless accusations as you have done. Second, he then went on to make the false statement that the Hadith and Sunnah were the same:

I'm not sure about the 72 virgins thing. Was it mentioned in the Koran or in the Hadeeth (i.e. Sunna - i.e. Muhammad's speech)?

Hell, not only was the good Dr. unaware as to what his own religious text[s] says regarding the Islamic afterlife--something even a novice like me knows!--but he claimed that the Hadith and the Sunnah were the same thing (he used the abbreviation "I.E." meaning "that is to say; in other words"). They are similar, but not the same:

In Islam, the Arabic word sunnah has come to denote the way Prophet Muhammad (saas), the Messenger of Allah, lived his life. The Sunnah is the second source of Islamic jurisprudence, the first being the Qur'an. Both sources are indispensable; one cannot practice Islam without consulting both of them. The Arabic word hadith (pl. ahadith) is very similar to Sunnah, but not identical. A hadith is a narration about the life of the Prophet (saas) or what he approved--as opposed to his life itself, which is the Sunnah as already mentioned.--Introduction to Islam by Muhammad Hamidullah (Centre Culturel Islamique, Paris, 1969)

Sunnah and Hadith, University of Southern California (Compendium of Muslim Texts)
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/

Again, I'm just starting my studies and I knew this! Dr Haisook, a devout Muslim, did not! I called him on it--and he freely admitted as much, saying:

Seanph, of course I simply cannot be familiar with every Islamic text. For one to be fully aware of every single text, they must extensively devote their time to the whole matter.

So how/why is this an inaccurate statement?



I don't hate anyone, nor would I ever post hate material. Do I ask hard questions? Yes. And did I state that I find various verses/chapters in the Koran, Hadith, Sunnah rather barberous? Yes. I have also stated the same with regards to Christianity and the Bible--a religion I fled after fifteen long years for that very same (one of many, actually) reason. Again, nothing about hatred here.



You come here making grandiose claims concerning Islam, and when you get asked the tough questions, you cry foul, hurl insults, and start whining like an infant. Don't post if you can't take the opinions of others.



What inaccurate statements? You have yet to provide a single statement thus far!



Oh brother! Yes, I'm sure you live in abstract fear.



No kidding. Tell that to the famalies of those who had the courage to speak out against Islam ... and have been beaten, forced to live by an alias, or murdered for it! How but Salman Rushdie, the Dutch filmaker and journalist Theo Van Gogh, Christoph Luxenberg, Abu Zaid, Ibn Warriq, Egyptian novelist Naguib Mahfouz ...?



You have proven that to be false. You claim to be of some loving and tolerant religion ... but hurl false accusations and nasty insults. Hypocrite!



What words?! Are you playing with a full deck?! Whew!

Sean

True.

Sean

Actually Sean what they did is strictly against Islam. The only evidence they try to bring to justify there actions is a hadith where the prophet said an eye for an eye. So they say that look our civilians are dying so we can kill their civilians too. This is wrong of course since in Bukhari it was reported that the prophet said “Do not say, that if the people do good to us, we will do good to them; and if the people oppress us, we will oppress them; but determine that if people do you good, you will do good to them; and if they oppress you, you will not oppress them”.
They kind of follow a goal justifies the means method. All scholars have said that what they do is wrong. It is a widely held belief that a martyr enters the highest ranks of paradise and a martyr in Islam is anyone who: dies defending his land for the sake of God , dies defending his money, dies burned, drowned, dies with no money, and many several things. It isnt just about fighting. Youve been researching Islam for some time now. Have you came across a single hadith or quote which allows the killings of civilians?

"Also, Mohammed peace be upon him also said:
"Indeed, whoever (intentionally) kills himself, then certainly he will be punished in the Fire of Hell, wherein he shall dwell forever)), [Bukhaaree (5778) and Muslim (109 and 110)]].

However, one who is ignorant and does not know, and assumes his action was good and pleasing to Allaah (Subhaanahu wa Ta'aala), then we hope Allaah (Subhaanahu wa Ta'aala) forgives him for that which he did out of (ignorant) ijtihaad, even though I do not find any excuse for him in the present day. This is because this type of suicide is well known and widespread amongst the people, so it is upon the person to ask the people of knowledge (scholars) regarding it, until the right guidance for him is differentiated from the error.

And from that which is surprising, is that these people kill themselves despite Allaah having fordbidden this, as He (Subhaanahu wa Ta'aala) says:

{And do not kill yourselves. Surely, Allaah is Most Merciful to you}, [Soorah an-Nisaa., Aayah 29].

And many amongst them do not desire anything except revenge of the enemy, by whatever means, be it halaal or haraam. So they only want to satisfy their thirst for revenge.

We ask Allaah to bless us with foresight in His Deen and action(s) which please Him, indeed He is all Powerful over all things."

Shaykh Ibn 'Uthaymeen*
Kayfa Nu'aalij Waaqi'unaa al-Aleem - Page 119

*One of the greatest scholars of this century, from Saudi Arabia.

Thanks, Muslim. I appreciate your response.

Most kindly,

Sean