Lets try it again.

From the Jewish Encyclopedia:
" According to a third and more probable theory, the seraphim originally were serpents, as the name implies. Among many peoples of antiquity serpents played an important part in myth and folk-lore. For instance, there were Tiamat in the Babylonian legend of the Creation, and the Uræus serpent in Egypt. Consequently, since the Jews shared the superstitious ideas of surrounding nations in other respects, it should not be a matter of wonder if they adopted this notion as well. That the serpent filled a special rôle among them as a demoniacal being may be seen from the story of Adam's fall (Gen. iii.). In this connection the names "Dragon Spring" and "Serpent Pool" (places in the vicinity of Jerusalem) are worthy of being noted. A brazen serpent brings relief from the effects of the bite of the fiery serpents (Num. xxi. 9 et seq.) which Yhwh sent among his disobedient people in the wilderness. Isaiah (xiv. 29, ***. 6) speaks of fiery, flying serpents and dragons; and a brazen serpent, Nehushtan, stood in the Temple at Jerusalem, and was an object of worship until the time of Hezekiah, who destroyed it as being idolatrous (II Kings xviii. 4 et seq.). The worship of Nehushtan was plainly a remnant of ancient superstition, and was reconciled with the worship of Yhwh by connecting Nehushtan with the scourge of snakes in the wilderness and the rescue from them (Num. xxi. 9 et seq.). Therefore the theory seems possible, even probable, that the seraphim have their counterpart in the flying serpents of Isaiah (comp. also II Esd. xv. 29). It is only natural that these winged guardians of Yhwh's throne were soon ranked as higher beings and invested with the human form or with some features of the human body; and it was because of the very fact that they were adopted into the Yhwh cult that they were, in process of time, ennobled and spiritualized"

Are you nuts, Moondog? What part of "according to a third a more probable theory the SERAPHIM WERE ORIGINALLY SERPENTS" don't you understand??? Using the words "More Probable", means that this esteemed Hebrew scholar believes the "Serpents" origin theory is more probable than the "cartoon angels" or the Babylonian fire god thoeries. And he is not even getting into all of the ancient supporting scriptures and artifacts that PROVE both the Jews and Christians regarded the Seraphim are serpent dragons. But when I mention things like Ivory dyptich of God on a throne of dragons, or Christian scriptures like the Baruch Apocolypse that describes the seraph dragons in heaven, it just goes right over your head becasue you know nothing about real Judao Christian religion and culture. The only thing you know is your concocted dualistic mythology that contradicts the holy scriptures. You cannot interpret these ancient scriptures if you know nothing aobut these peoples culture, beliefs and artifacts. You seem to think interpreting scripture is nothing more than a game of scrabble, where the only thing that matters is if you can concoct a definition that satisfied you preconcieved mythology, instead of ASKING WHY there are dragons on the temple menorah, God riding on dragons in Christian illuminated Bibles, dragons guarding the throne of God in frescoes, mosaics and Bible covers, and why they are described in Heaven in books that were accepted by th chruch for centuries. But to you it is only a scrabble game. You simply ignore any evidence that contradicts your non-bibilcal mythology. And the saddest thing is that you do it out of sheer pride and arrogance. You set a poor example for Christians everywhere.

So no, the author of the Jewish Encyclopeadia article most certainly DOES NOT AGREE WITH YOU. He plainly states that the most probable theory for the origin of the Seraphim are fiery flying serpents, NOT your cartoon angels. It is people like you who turn Christianity into a laughing stock. You are so arrogant and block-headed that you cannot even comprehand a simple sentence in plain English if it does not support your mythology. Obviously you must have an "angel fetish", and read too many fantasy novels about swan winged humanoid angels.

Well actually the poem on jesus i just put up makes an interesting point. I thought i'd use it here as an answer because it is a debate between an angel and a devil. It makes the devil look spiritually in tune with what the bible says and the angel like a fool. Anyway I thought it worth putting up. It goes as such:




Once I saw a Devil in a flame of fire, who arose before an Angel that sat on a cloud, and the Devil utter'd these words: 'The worship of God is: Honouring his gifts in other men, each according to his genius, and loving the greatest men best: those who envy or calmuniate great men hate God: for there is no other God.'

The Angel hearing this became almost blue; but mastering himself he grew yellow, & at last white, pink, & smiling, and then replied:

'Thou Idolater! is not God One? & is he visible in Jesus Christ? and has not Jesus given his sanction to the law of ten commandments? and are not all other men fools, sinners, & nothings?'

The Devil answer'd: bray a fool in a morter with wheat, yet shall not his folly be beaten out of him; if Jesus Christ is the greatest man, you ought to love him in the greatest degree; now hear how he has given his sanction to the law of ten commandments: did he not mock at the sabbath, and so mock the sabbath's God? murder those who were murder'd because of him? turn away the from the woman taken in adultery? steal the labour of others to support him? bear false witness when he omitted making a defence before Pilate? covet when he pray'd for his disciples, and when he bid them shake off the dust of their feet against such as refused to lodge them?

I tell you, no virtue can exist without breaking these ten commandments. Jesus was all virtue, and acted from impulse, not from rules.

When he had so spoken, I beheld the Angel, who stretched out his arms, embracing the flame of fire, & he was consumed and arose as Elijah.

Note: This Angel, who is now become a Devil, is my particular friend; we often read the Bible together in its infernal or diabolical sense, which the world shall have if they behave well.

I have also The bible of Hell, which the world shall have whether they will or no.

One Law for the Lion & Ox is oppression.

---William Blake


I thought it was quite insightful as well as trippy.

Sorry if I missed you. As I just pointed out to Moondog again, the estemed Hebrew scholar who wrote the Seraphim article for the Jewish encyclopedia plainly states that it is MOST PROBABLE that the Seraphim are serpents, though ancient Jewish depiction give them arms and legs like dragons, which also coincides with the descriptions. I am not the one combining mythology into the Holy Scriptures, you are. Dragons are an intregal part of REAL Judao-Christian theology, as they are in other theologies all over the world. But this makes Christians uncomfortable, and an attempt has been made to remove them from the theolgy. but thanks to arhcaeology, we find the ancient proof faster than the modern church can destroy it.


So these are not my ideas, they are what the bible actually says. But the dragons make a lot of sense if you accept a long earth creation of millions of years. Therefore we can surmise that God enhanced some prehistoric reptiles with intelligence perhaps 100 million years before the evolution of man. So when God discussed the possibility of similarly enhancing mankind with similar intelligence as he bestowed on his dragons, this is what was meant by his image, NOT that God looks like a wizened old man. And this is why chimps are so genetically similar to mankind. Man was made in God's Image, just as some ancient prehistoric reptiles that are called Cherubim and Seraphim, or around the world as the intelligent dragons that appear in almost every world culture.

When God made/enhanced dragons there would not be people around for 100 million years. But apparently God thought enhancing a primate was even a better idea than the dragons, but this doesn't change the fact they were his first servants. But humans were enhanced to be servants too, and this is why there are angels in addition to the Seraphim and Cherubim, "Dragons". But no angel has wings, this is a confusion with the winged dragon servants.

So now dragons did exist? mythology is mythology. Dinosaurs are dinosaurs. Man is man. Monkeys are monkeys. What made man superiour to all other beings of the creation of life was that he was made in the image of those in heaven. What I dont get is that the two high angels classes are in God's personal company as it is stated in both Jewish and Christian text. why would he make man in the form of the lowly messengers? When he stated I will make man in our image as in all in Heaven? So he either A) Excluded these dragon heavenly bodies. Or B ) They are not dragons.

Also you never anwered my other question about Dragon Style Martial Art creation and its comparision to your Dragon theory. Was this style taught to Chinese martial artist by Seraphim and Cherubim?

Everything is a reflection of God. Not just man. And if you take the holographic theory into account then everything is a reflection of everything else. That means that the enitire universe in its infinite entirety including all events in time past and future are reflected in a sub-atomic particle. Sounds impossible doesn't it? But doesn't the bible say with God anything is possible?

I wont deny the bolded words. As a creator God's hand/touch is on everything he has created. He can do anything. I believe God works diffrently than anything apperent on Earth. He has a form I have theorized as un-natural naturalisim. It is natural because everything he has created on earth is of a natural existense. But it is unatural in the same way because it is worked by God in his ever present glory and that cant be noticed but in simplicity by man. I would go into detail but it would be a large post way off subject. Which as far as I remember is about Satan and if his rebellion was rightous.

My real problem with this character is that he makes claims, which is fine, don't we all. But he likes to call people stupid or blind or whatever if they do not agree with him. I honestly wonder if this is some kid playing a prank on this site. Because none of the "research" he presents is valid and he cannot even read the Jewish Encylopedia properly. Oh well. good luck having a debate with this fellow.

Airkia,

The verse like I said before is from 'The Life of Adam and Eve', and you're right he IS still in Heaven as all angels both fallen or not fallen are.

Whoever it was that said my experience was against the Bible is absolutely wrong. It in no way contradicts the Bible.

As for what satan looks like I don't really care if you think he's a dragon or a pink fluffy easter bunny I'd appreciate staying on topic and not trolling every thread I make that relates to either satan or angels being 'trolled' by a certain someone. As for the repeated reference to 'Drakones' in Enoch, like I've said before the original text is ETHIOPIAN not greek and I've already told everyone here what it says...flaming serpents with eyes of fire with fierce weapons AS ANGELS OF PUNISHMENT not on God's throne, and it doesn't directly term them as Seraphim either.

At least a billion orientals still believe dragons exist, as supernatural creatures, as do millions of Christians believe in angels, blisfully ignorant that dragons are as much, or more important in the Heavenly hierarchy than the human like angels.

Angels seem to have been necessary becasue the much older dragons were too terrifying to serve as messengers, and too conspiculous to serve as spies. Angels have no special powers, the Bible states a normal man is just as strong. The powerful creatures of God are these dragons, but traits of both creatures, like the dragon's wings, power and fiery breath and been given to Angels by later theologians, ignorant of the Hebrew language, and therefore unaware that the Seraphim, Cherubim, destroyers and DRAGONS mentioned in the bible as heavenly creatures, are the same dragons in the myths and legends all over the world.

I have no idea if dragons taught the Chinese martial arts. The ancient legends around the world, including China talk of dragons teaching men many things, and we even see this in the scripture which inspired early Christianity the most, the Book of Enoch.

There are Chinese edicts ordering commoners not to speak with dragons, possibly because only the emperor and his closest advisors should gain their knowledge. And this is from the most highly civilized culture in the ancient world. But every other culture acknowledge the dragons too, including the Jews and Christians, but Christians have done their best in modern times to cover up these facts, in a pathetic aim to prove their beliefs were more enlightened and believable than any culutres that acknowledge intelligent dragons. But these fools do not seem to realize that to deny the the existence of dragons as heavenly creatures is to deny the authenticity of the Bible as it clearly states that winged, serpentine creatures which the Rabbis would translate to the Greek word Drakones are the highest of heavenly creatures, just as the oriental world believes, and virtually every other culture. The belief in dragons is a universal one of ancient man. It is only modern Christians who very lamely try to pretend they are not imbedded just as deeply in Judao-Christian theology as well.

For someone who thinks they know a lot about the book of Enoch, you are really a disappointment. Both Wikipedia and The Jewish Encyclopedia refer to Greek fragments of Enoch that prove Seraphim is translated to Drakones. It is even posted in this thread if you care to look. The only complete text of Enoch is in Ethiopian becasue the Catholic Church ordered the rest destroyed, But the Greek fragments were buried before the chruch was even established. The only reason the Ethiopian vesion survived was because it was isolated from the rest of the Christian World by the moslem conquests, and could not obey the Popes order to destroy it. Dont you even realize that parts of the New Testament like Jude are taken directly from the Book of Enoch word for word? So do you think Christians went to Ethiopia to get their information to make the New Testaent? Of course not. Enoch has been found in Israel, but in fragments, including the fragments that prove the ancient Rabbis translated the Seraphim to Drakones. And the early Christians thorugh the middle ages continiued to believe the seraphim were Drakones, because church mosaics , frescoes and bible covers show these dragons surrounding the throne of God exactly like the Seraphim. But it is a Moot point, becasue Seraphim mean fiery flying serpents in the Hebrew language.

At least who do understand the basic concept of acneicnt Jewish and Christian theology that there are fiery flying serpents in heaven. But it is amusing that you cannot connect that fact with the fact that this is what the word Seraphim actually means in Hebrew, and when trying to find a suitable word to translate these creatures into Greek, the Jewish Rabbis used the word Drakones. This is all a matter of historical record from the worlds most imminent scholars on Hebrew scriture. And this is all very important to any intelligent discussion of the nature of Satan, for it proves he has no connection to the invented Lucifer, nor was he ever a fallen angel, so these fact are pertinent to the discussion on this thread. So if anyone is the troll here, it is you, in your childish attempt to discredit anyone whose views contradict your own. At least I can prove what the Bible really says, despite the fact that the truth differs considerably from modern christian mythology.

Well, no again your not precise. The hebrew word is "Saraph" which simply means fiery or burning. There is no connotation to dragons or serpents inherant in the word itself. The description biblically is that they are winged and have faces and hands not beaks and claws.

D C you still havent answered my question. Only still run around it with your theories. Plus Moondoggy has another good point with his last post too. Because I still cannot find anywhere were it states such heavenly bodies are dragon. All you seem to put out is that around the world dragon mythology is recorded. But so is vampire mythology and werewolves and elves and many other mythical creatures who only survive in mythology and fantasy.

God, when he created man looked to the other angels among him, Cherubs and Seraphims(who are recored in both texts as the superior heavenly bodies of God's kindom) and said I will make man in OUR image.

What made man superiour to all other beings of the creation of life was that he was made in the image of those in heaven. What I dont get is that the two high angel classes are in God's personal company as it is stated in both Jewish and Christian text. why would he then make man in the form of the lowly messengers?

Wrong again Moondoggy. See the Wiki definition below, but every other dictionary except those made by Christians with an "angel agenda" will tell you the same thing. Seraph is a Hebrew noun for a heavenly flying fiery serpent. Seraphim is the plural of the same word. This is why rabbis translated the word Seraphim to drakones, and not to the common word for snakes, because the Drakone was a supernatural reptile connected to the Gods in Greek as the Saraph was in Hebrew. Your translation "to burn" is a Christian lie to get around the true meaning, that is a heavenly serpent-dragon. These creatures are mentioned in several places in the Bible, and word word Saraph always means the creature, not "to burn". See if the word Seraph is used to describe the Burning Bush of Moses. It is not becasue the word means the heavenly Serpent Dragon. Why are you behaiving so dumb about this? All the reputable sources confirm everything I have said. Your Sunday School-level Christian mythology has absolutely no historical backing. The Christian concordances with these lies were created by the same Sunday School techers to justify their "cartoon angel mythology.

from Wiki:
"Saraph (שרף) , is the Israeli name for the Boeing AH-64D Apache Longbow attack helicopter, in its Israeli Air Force configuration.
It is named after the biblical snake, Saraph, called "fiery serpent" in popular English translations: "And the LORD said unto Moses: 'Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole". Numbers Chapter 21."


And please don't lie about who started the name calling here as you harped in the previous post. You did, and you have been warned by moderators several times., Some of your insults were downright obscene. Not something I would expect from a real Christian. I know you are frustrated that your mythology has no scriptural basis. But is is really immature to make such a big deal over this. Why should it matter that the Bible say the highest of heavenly servants are winged serpent-dragons. You should be happy. Nobody claims to see nonsensical cartoon angels with wings - but for 5000 years of recorded history, people all over the world have seen dragons, and assigned them supernatural abilities and human-like intelligence. No miracle in the Bible has more evidence than the existence of the talking, fire spewing dragons described in that book.

Dragons in the Bible is not my invention as you fantasize. The most esteemed sources confirm this. Jewish Rabbis confirmed it in their translations from Hebrew to Greek before the birth of Jesus, and the early Christian church continued the belief as art, archaeology and scripture prove. Jesus calls the image of these "dragons" his symbol in the New Testament.

I get my information from an analytical hebrew lexicon, not the internet. No you are the one who calls people stupid and blind etc... They can read the posts. Great so now helicpoters and such are being used to bolster your ideas. Gee how about an F-14 Tomcat, do you you think Tomcats have anything to do with jets. Get real. Saraph just means fiery or burning and that is all unless it is tied to another word, but that makes two words not one. I am not the least frustrated because your basis for this is all wrong and I have proven it several times, even with your own references. Moses Maimonides was not a christian and I am sure his scholary record will stand against any sumerian fairy tales you bring along. Sell any books lately?

1. Draconic you can't 'troll' your own thread, this is MY THREAD, and you are trolling it.

2. The reason Enoch is in Ethiopian and the greek version is irrelevant is because Enoch WAS ETHIOPIAN

3. I'm well aware of the fact that the NT quotes Enoch but that again still has naught to do with 'drakones'

I've given you the word of a Rabbi countless corrections to your dragon misconception but you still continue to rave on and on about the same points I've already covered again and again. It really is quite boring.

No, Moondog, the helicopters with dragons painted on their sides just proves that real Hebrew speakers (the people of Israel), fully understand the Seraphim are heavenly dragon serpents and not pagan swan-winged cartoon angels. This should be a "no-brainer" to any person with common sense.

Wiki was the first thing I looked at, but the Jewish encyclopedia states the same thing, the Saraph is a heavenly serpent dragon, not a verb meaning to burn. This is Chritian invented nonsense created by arrogant men that could not accept Gods highest creatures are not in the human but reptilian form. This have everything to do with evolution as my book explains in detail.

Further proof is that the ancient Egyptian Pyramid texts describe a supernatural flying fiery serpent with EXACTLY the same name.

Any serious Biblical scholar knows to give little credence to Medieval writings, when so much had been lost in the dark ages. ALL of the ancient Jewish and Christian sources, be it scripture or archaeologcial representations, prove that these people acknowledge the seraphim as serpent dragons, NOT Medieval swan winged cartoon angels.

What you call "Sumerian Fairytales" are the origins of the Hebrew Bible, as again, the scholars of the Jewish Encyclopedia admit. So the real adam and the God who offered him eternal life is a fairy tale to you, because in the original version the dragon works for God.

However, there can be no doubt that major elements of the Book of Revelations are taken verbatim from a zoroastrian "fairytale" that has no connection at all to Judaism or the Bible.

Everything I have said is documented, and documented by the ancient judao-christian sources. Your only "documentation" comes from Medieval nonsense by a Jewish sychopant who shamefully imiitated Christian, non-Biblical mythology of pagan swan-winged human figures. Moses made the seraph image in the form of a winged serpent on the command of God, not a cartoon angel. Jerusaelem was destroyed when a mere man ordered the image destroyed. And Jesus confirmed the winged serpent as his symbol, NOT a winged human figure of the pagan world that it an ABOMINATION in the eyes of God. There are dragons on the sacred temple Menorah, NOT PAGAN winged angels. Quit pretending you know anything about the Bible, because you do not. Your Roman-oriented beliefs are a non-Biblical pagan, helleno-persian abomination to God, which is why Jesus never returned. The winged dragon was Jesus' real symbol as He says. Not some filthy roman execution device that you desecrate the tops of your churches with. But you and your blasphemous ilk make lies to dismiss the highest of heavenly creatures from the Bible and turn them into pagan Greco-roman swan-winged dieties in the human image. This is why you have been abandoned. You have ignored the real Bible and taken up pagan beliefs and dieties.

Oh now Jesus is a dragon huh? You're ****ing hilarious mate.

Thank you Ashley for revealing to the Internet World by your own admisison that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about pertaining to the Book of Enoch, and supposedly this is your great area of expertise.

No serious scholar believes Enoch is Ethiopian. That is about the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. Everyone knows The Book of Enoch is a post exile Jewish work, and the oldest known examples are the greek and aramaic fragments found in cave 7 of the dead sea scrolls. The Ethiopian Enoch is is probably no more than three hundred years old, and comparitive studies with the Greek and Aramaic fragments show the the Ethiopian differs quite a bit. But as I said before, the greek fragments prove that the ancient Jewish scholars acknowledged that the seraphim were dragons, just like the Jewish poulation of Israel today. And no amount of Christian cartoon angelology can dispute these facts.

And to your other post, no Ashley, I did not say Jesus was a dragon. The New Testament states his symbol was a dragon, or a fiery flying serpent if you do not like the Greek translation.

Still havent answered my question. By the way I would like to get back on topic. The base of this was about Satan the fallen angel.

I know absolutely everything about the book of Enoch. The only thing you 'know' is that some later Greek translation has the word 'drakone' in it and Enoch was indeed Ethiopian.

Nowhere does it ever state Jesus' symbol was a dragon or a Seraphim it was a FISH. You just blatantly lie through your teeth to keep your dragon fantasy alive and make a few bucks.

Must be self published books because I cannot find any at Barnes and Noble

No, I don't think an angel should bow down to a human. An angel is a being of Light, an emissary of God, never having had a carnal existence. Because of this, because angels are very close to God, they should be shown reverence.

http://ashiana.conforums.com/index.cgi

~ Isis2200

Not only have you proven you total ignorance about the book of Enoch by stating it is of Ethiopian origin, but now you state your complete ignorance about Christianity as well. Early christians may have used a fish because it was easier to draw than a fiery flying sepent/drakone, but if you knew anything about Jesus' teachings, you would know that the ONLY symbol he compared himself with was the brazen Seraph-dragon of Moses in John 3:14-16. And yes, it is a winged Drakone for there are ancient Jewish depiction of it.

Back to Enoch, you are evidently unaware that in the Ethiopic version you claim to be the original, the Seraphim presided over by the angel Gabriel are called SERPENTS. This is probably because the Ethiopians did not have a specific word for heavenly supernatural reptilian creatures called Seraphim in Hebrew and Drakones in Greek, but the translator definately knew they were not Moondoggy's white, anglo saxon protestant, blue eyed, blond haired, swan winged cartoon angels, for this is medieval to modern Christian mythology that has nothing to do with the ancient scriptures, But cartoon angels are more acceptable heavenly creatures to WASP's than scaly winged reptiles, no matter what the original scriptures say, in four different languages that all confirm each other, no less, that the Seraphim were of a reptilian nature.
Unlike you, I have NEVER given erroneous information here. Also unlike you, I actually know my subject matter. You have clearly demonstrated you do not.



No guy, that wasn't the topic. And nowhere in the Bible that Jesus endorsed does it say Satan was a fallen angel. It says he was an obedient "son of God". Don't add your mythology that has nothing to do with the real Bible. And every serious biblical scholar knows that Lucifer is only a Christian mistranslation. If the question you keep asking is if dragons taught the chinese Martial Arts, I don't know. Many anicent peoples credit dragons teaching them other thi

You may be right Isis. The notion of angels bowing down to humans is the same kind of egotism christians display when they refuse to believe what the Bible says about fiery winged serpents being the highest assistants to God, and have turned these creatures into freakish humans with the wings of birds, contrary to the Jewish descriptions of these creatures as a kind of winged serpent or dragon. God ordered Moses to make the image of one, and it was preserved for centuries and placed in the first temple by Solomon, and Israeel enjoyed its greatest properity. But a later king destroyed the image of the seraph-dragon because the people were burning incense in its honor, and shortly afterwards the temple and Jerusalem were destroyed, and the Jews sold into slavery. Mere coincidence? Or maybe one shouldn't destroy an image of God's highest servants, that He Himself ordered Moses to make.


And Moondog, if you are referring to my book, yes it will be available through Barnes and Nobel, but not until this summer. You can get three of my previous books from them, but they have nothing to do with the Bible or religion.

I will be sure to let you know when the "Biblical dragon" book is released.

I'd appreciate a post on board, or at the least a PM. I look forward to the read, and the reviews when the evangelical market gets wind.

I may have missed it, but what 3 books have you published thus far!?

I looked at the bible origins and there are a couple of books I am going to get, but they seem to reference tablets from sumerian archeaology and not actual texts. So, it does not appear to be an abundant amount of information.

Where is the reference of Satan bowing to a human. I know the gospel accounts that Jesus told him to take hike, but i know of no other???

When Satan said that, he was questioning what God told him. The substance of the argument does not matter. He rebelled against God and that's that. He refused to repent of his rebellion, and so is in the situation that he is now in. Whether he thinks he knew better than God or not is immaterial.

You just crap on. And I already said they were flaming serpents in Enoch, but not dragons. Learn to read.

D C, Here it is again. Please! Please! Please! Answer it this time!

God, when he created man looked to the other angels among him, Cherubs and Seraphims (who are recored in both texts as the superior heavenly bodies of God's kindom who are in God's direct company) and said I will make man in OUR image.

What made man superiour to all other beings of the creation of life was that he was made in the image of those in heaven. What I dont get is that the two high angel classes are in God's personal company as it is stated in both Jewish and Christian text. why would he then make man in the form of the lowly messengers?

By the way thank you for admiting that you do not know all there is to know about dragon mythology.

But Enoch identifies the serpents specifically as the Seraphim. Dragons is an English word derived from the Greek. If you like fiery flying serpents better, that's fine. But the Jewish Rabbis that translated Enoch into the Greek thought the word "Drakone" was the perfect choice. So don't b**** at me. b**** at the Jewish Rabbis that knew far more about this than you ever possibly could. and they wrote Enoch, not somebody in Ethiopia. That's why Enoch is part of the dead Sea Scrolls. Give it up girl, you do not have the slightest idea what you are talking about.

Well, if Angels do exist, they're by far superior to humans...so yes, he was right.

Go Satan!

PS. Anyone ever read Memnoch the Devil?

I did say this once, so here again.

By Our Own Image, this inferred that mankind would be like God and his dragon servants in that they would have intelligence and speech unlike the lower animals.

At this time there were no humans, and therfore no human-like angels. The messenger angels were created after the human race developed because there was no need for them beforehand. This is what the original Adam story was all about. Eternal life was never offered to everyone. This is a hebrew/christian misunderstanding. The dragon was recruiting suitable humans to become angels. Adam refused, for reasons my book explains, and after 1500 years of retelling the story, the garbled version was written down and that is what is in the Bible. But the real story was written down a lot earlier, and it is indeed the same story, for there is a Garden called Eden, a talking dragon, sacred trees, a man named Adam, and the prospect of immortlality. Only in the original story, Adam isn't the first man. He lived in a known stoneage city. The original story works better with modern concepts of evolution and history.

Are you for real? Do you even know who Enoch was? He was Noah's great-grandfather (there you learned something) and he WAS Ethiopian, that's WHY it was added to the Dead Sea Scrolls.

No serious scholar acknoledges Enoch was written by the original Enoch. By style and content it is clearly a post-exile work probably originally written in Aramaic and later translated to Greek, but still, long before the birth of Jesus. Enoch went to Ethiopia along with the rest of the Christin scriptures much later in early Christian times, translated to the Ethiopic. The Oldest surviving Enoch is from the dead sea scrolls and these call the Seraphim dracones. In the Aramaic and Ethiopain thay are called serpents, probably because unlike the Greek there is not a specific word for supernatural serpent dragons. Never is it inferred that have a human form. This is medieval Christian mythology that has nothing to do with the real bible (or the real enoch, as you can see)..

You will see I am write about all of this if you go to a scholarly work about Enoch for verification.

There is a big diffrence in spirit and body. Image is not intellect image is the bodly figure. When you describe an image do you describe a persons mind or what they look like? If what you said was true then then the Bible would say that he made Man with the intellect of the heavenly spirits. But then what is the purpose of eating of the forbidden fruit if we all ready have this knowlege and intellect? And if Adam was not the first man and Eve the first woman then who was? I also bet you believe in the Lilith mythos.

Also another thing about Eden. Adam was immortal until he ate of the tree of life. It never states how long he lived in Eden during his immortal life. One aspect to look at when the world is so old but man is so young. When you read the Bible the story of Adam is very shorthandedly written. Adam as a mortal man lived to be over nine-hundred years. But how long did he live as an immortal? What went on in the world outside Eden? Why did the world change so suddenly when man showed up? It is not documented in the Bible because the Bible centers around what was happening in Eden between God and Adam. The creation of Eve also was written shorthand in Genesis. How long did Adam live in Eden before Eve was created? Know one really knows.

The big question is why does it matter? Why does it matter if Angels are winged creatures or dragons? It doesnt. The only thing that matters is the ministry of Christ to Christians and the word of God.

Because people like being right .

Truely, I suppose it does not matter, though it would be interesting to know the truth. People like to present their opinions as the truth, however, so the only way to come to a solid conclusion is to do your own research.

I can't say that I recall seraphim or cherubim looking like men (besides one face out of many) , atleast from I have read in the bible.. however accurate you believe it to be.

I agree. My opinion is that "Truth" is beyond concepts of right and wrong. It just is. Nothing right to it or nothing wrong with it. It is both right and wrong. It is everything including lies. The ultimate truth cannot be described in words because words are limited in their expression and truth is beyond all expressions yet including them all.

As the bible says :"Be still and know I am God." Quieting the mind is the means to seeing Truth with one's own soul.

As William Blake once said: If the doors of perception were cleansed everything would appear to man as it is, infinite.


When we still our minds we see truth. I havn't found this truth yet but I have faith it is there. This truth is described in The Bible, Bhagavad Gita, The book of Chuang Tzu and endless others.

As Gandhi said: Search for Truth is search for God. Truth is God. God is because Truth is.

What is Truth? You'll never know it until you experience it. I havn;t experienced it but I have faith that I will oneday and I believe everyone else will. I believe it is the destiny of all.

There is no "right" or "wrong" path to Truth. All paths in the end lead there. They are all different paths with the same goal. To find our true idenity which is Tao.

Ok, here's the punchline. Whoever said satan was wrong despite any 'loyalty' is correct.

Let me tell you the rest of the story.

Adam and Eve tried to repent for eating of the Tree of Knowledge but immesring themselves in a river outside Eden for 40 days and 40 nights to get God's forgiveness. Many angels were standing there crying for them, then satan turns up and pretends to cry and says to Eve 'Get out of the water all has been forgiven' so she gets out, Adam sees her and says 'How could you be so stupid Eve to be decieved by satan AGAIN' he could see through his facade as an angel of light and saw who he was. Then Adam says to satan 'What have you got against us that you would do this?' and satan says 'Oh Adam, don't you see, it is BECAUSE of you that I have been cast out from among my bretherin and I will seek revenge against you for all eternity'. This is the reason for satan's hatred and motivation as accusing angel against humanity.

hi, could you tell me where you got this info from. thanks

[quote name='draconic chronicler' date='Feb 13 2007, 06:13 AM' post='1541338']
Not only have you proven you total ignorance about the book of Enoch by stating it is of Ethiopian origin, but now you state your complete ignorance about Christianity as well. Early christians may have used a fish because it was easier to draw than a fiery flying sepent/drakone, but if you knew anything about Jesus' teachings, you would know that the ONLY symbol he compared himself with was the brazen Seraph-dragon of Moses in John 3:14-16. And yes, it is a winged Drakone for there are ancient Jewish depiction of it.

Back to Enoch, you are evidently unaware that in the Ethiopic version you claim to be the original, the Seraphim presided over by the angel Gabriel are called SERPENTS. This is probably because the Ethiopians did not have a specific word for heavenly supernatural reptilian creatures called Seraphim in Hebrew and Drakones in Greek, but the translator definately knew they were not Moondoggy's white, anglo saxon protestant, blue eyed, blond haired, swan winged cartoon angels, for this is medieval to modern Christian mythology that has nothing to do with the ancient scriptures, But cartoon angels are more acceptable heavenly creatures to WASP's than scaly winged reptiles, no matter what the original scriptures say, in four different languages that all confirm each other, no less, that the Seraphim were of a reptilian nature.
Unlike you, I have NEVER given erroneous information here. Also unlike you, I actually know my subject matter. You have clearly demonstrated you do not.
No guy, that wasn't the topic. And nowhere in the Bible that Jesus endorsed does it say Satan was a fallen angel. It says he was an obedient "son of God". Don't add your mythology that has nothing to do with the real Bible. And every serious biblical scholar knows that Lucifer is only a Christian mistranslation. If the question you keep asking is if dragons taught the chinese Martial Arts, I don't know. Many anicent peoples credit dragons teaching them other thi

You may be right Isis. The notion of angels bowing down to humans is the same kind of egotism christians display when they refuse to believe what the Bible says about fiery winged serpents being the highest assistants to God, and have turned these creatures into freakish humans with the wings of birds, contrary to the Jewish descriptions of these creatures as a kind of winged serpent or dragon. God ordered Moses to make the image of one, and it was preserved for centuries and placed in the first temple by Solomon, and Israeel enjoyed its greatest properity. But a later king destroyed the image of the seraph-dragon because the people were burning incense in its honor, and shortly afterwards the temple and Jerusalem were destroyed, and the Jews sold into slavery. Mere coincidence? Or maybe one shouldn't destroy an image of God's highest servants, that He Himself ordered Moses to make.
And Moondog, if you are referring to my book, yes it will be available through Barnes and Nobel, but not until this summer. You can get three of my previous books from them, but they have nothing to do with the Bible or religion.

I will be sure to let you know when the "Biblical dragon" book is released.
[/quote


hi, could you please tell where you got the info about moses making the idol. thanks

If satan was the Demiurge and asked that question, the answer would be that Adam is a Son of Light captive in a vessel of clay; Satan would already know this instinctively, but he would be trying to keep this truth from Adam, as usual. Gnostics contend that the god insisting on being the "only" god is the same distracting Demiurge, who would rather we were kept in the dark regarding our true origins and his.

Peace,

RadicalGnostic

Yeah well, everyone has their opinions RG.

Toby,
The information comes from a text called 'The Life of Adam and Eve'.

What is it with these "reptilian creatures"? I hear they are an extraterrestrial race of reptillian hominids conspiring for/against our government, and now they are supernatural and also the Seraphim? The same Seraphim who are in the presence of God? So one of the highest orders of angels is reptillian? Where is this documented in the religious literature of human kind? I'm confused...

Peace,

RadicalGnostic

Well Seraphim are supposidly Fiery Flying Serpents..which does not automatically mean a dragon. They may be dragon like in appearance, but as far as the bible goes (you may choose to research this elsewhere I suppose) I do not think that they were actually decribed as reptilian ( I believe this info comes from the name). They were described as having 6 wings (2 covering their face, 2 covering their feet, and 2 to fly-feel free to correct me if I am wrong as I am pulling this info out of my brain without double checking anything). I also believe that the word Seraph means a fiery serpent (hence the fact that they are believed to be reptilian in nature).

I don't think anyone in this thread is really making them out to be actual dragons, but just dragon-like beings.

Many people think Angels are aliens so think what'cha want Maybe they are the reptilians!

Just for the record here, I NEVER described the seraphim as blue eyed cartoonish angels. I gave the description in the only verse in the Bible that does describe them which is in Isaiah chapter 6. Read it for yourself and do not put false words in my mouth. Thankyou!

heh, I can't imagine anyone who has actually carefully read the bible thinking all angels are blue eyed blond hair beings that play the harp and have a plastic halo over their head

Me neither but Draconic claims I said they were which I did not.

hmmmm i think we angels and humans must respect god's rules

God tell Moses to make the brazen Seraph dragon in the book of numbers. Looking upon it cures the Israelites who were bitten by the Seraphim sent by God to punish them.

It depends on what you define as an actual dragon. Jewish Rabbis translated the word Seraphim to the more familiar Greek word Drakones. But these creatures are not Angels, Seraphim and Cherubim are referred to as creatures in the Bible never as angels. And angels appear exactly as young men and are frennquently mistaken for them.

But if we acknowledge the God of the Bible is real, why couldn't the Seraphim be the same dragons of other world legends. It actually makes more sense than every culture having its own species of supernatural dragons. And we do see similarieties in all of them as I explaim in my book. These Biblical seraphim spew fire and devour people just like other dragons. They also guard sacred trees in cultures all over the world, probably based on the universal truth of the earliest Sumerian dragon legends from which the Biblical Garden of eden and talking dragon are based.

The David Ickes reptilians are a nonsense. He uses the same root mesopotamain beliefs of dragon gods that taught humans technology, but instead of acknowledging they were the servants of a creator God, he makes them into smaller, human sized aliens that are now disguised as humans and control the world.

But this just shows that after 6000 years, intelligent reptilians are still ingrained on the human psyche.