In love do you mean when angels laid with women? They still would to an extent would be considered evil since they sinned. They are shunned from God due to the fact that they like Satan/Lucifer indulged in sin and chose that path over their servitude in Heaven. Sin is sin no matter the self-justification. And to the fact of Cherubs not much is stated about them in text exept for in Revelation. Plus Satan was higher than the Cherub or the Archangel for he was was the first and held on high in the favor of God.

By the way what did you mean with NDE?

Now you can see why we was to make no graven images .


As satan could trick us to worshiping him !

True. Know one really knows what Christ looked like since no picture of him is dated to be a during his time or as a portrait. The only known visage of Christ is the imprint of his face on the cloth of the woman who wiped his face as he carried the cross through town. And the only real discription of his visage could be made from discription in scripture. By the way about your last post Angels only took the form of men on authorisation from God. All other appreances of Angels were of the spirtiual form they are described as such as in Jacobs Ladder, The angel who came to the parents of Samson, The angel that came to Mary and Joseph, and the description of angels in the Revelation. But you are right Satan's game is corruption and deciete. So I can see your point there. Fact is it doent matter what he looked like when he lived, the main point is that he did live and died for our salvation.

Exactly! That is why it is stated all you need is the word and your faith. Thy rod and thy staff.

Well he may or may not be a Cherubim as he was the highest and most powerful of all angels but his sign is Scorpio.

An NDE is a Near Death Experience which I had last year. I saw satan, God, the law courts of Heaven, the angel Gabriel and I went through a lake of fire. I was called by God in the supreme law courts of Heaven the angel fallen Asiel where it was being decided whether or not I should live. Before this happened the angel of death was behind me banging his sickle (this was when I was awake and before the NDE) actually physically pounding the tiles and making both noise and physical vibrations in the floor. The lake of fire which the Angel Gabriel brought me out of (which by the way burns like ****ing hell) is an angel baptism. Angels being made of fire bathe and get baptised in fire. This is what will happen to satan, a baptism...not his eventual doom. I was told by satan - who is far from a dragon or any other horrific image being of 5ft height wavy blonde shoulder hair blue eyes and an angular face which looks both male and female and quite penetrating eyes, that there is no hell. He used a Mirror of Truth on me...something angels use to see into someone...he saw into me and dug into one of my weaknesses until I called out YAHWEH! Then he retreated. When he saw into me I also saw into him his secrets, why God listens to him and the secret which will make him cast himself out of Heaven of his own free will. This secret I was told by God to tell no one. I was his thwarting angel. When I attempted to tell this secret to my mother (it was obviously decided I should live) I felt something strangling my neck, so I stopped. Other things happened but that's a general rundown.

Don't you think the bible tells us clearly Satan was a Cherub in Ezekiel 28 12-17

The Scorpio side of the Cherubim most probably. You do realize the Cherubim represent the 4 fixed signs of the zodiac right?

i don't pay much attention to the zodiac , or moons or stars or suns . deut 4:19 , 17:3 i think kind of warns against it.

Those records are about worshipping the stars etc... Each tribe of Israel had an ensign that was a major constellation of the Hebrew Zodiac. Gen 1:14 says they are also for "signs". There is a huge difference between astronomy and astrology. The cycle of the Zodiac begins in Virgo (Virgin) and ends in Leo (Lion of the tribe of Judah). The constellations tell the story of redemption. How else did the magi know what to look for in the heavens that announced the birth of the Christ? They knew what "his star" was. The sign of the son of man will appear again in the heavens. Having biblical knowledge of the meaning of the Hebrew zodiac does not connote worship, nor are they a source of knowledge to live by daily, as astrology would have us believe.

Yes, I will marry you!

You really don't know what you are talking about. The Jewish Rabbis of pre-Christian times translated the Seraphim in their scriptures to the Greek word Drakones (dragons). This is undeniable fact. The ancient Christians also acknowledged dragons in heaven in various scriptures and depiected dragons around the throne of God in their interpretations of the throne scene in Isaiah, representing the Seraphim. This is also historical fact. Revelation is a verbatim copy of older Zoroastrian texts where the imprisoned dragon is a literal dragon named Ahriman, in the exact same role as Satan, cast in the same abyss, even bound up the same way.
Jews and Christians of the ancient world believed Satan was a liiteral Dragon. This was also believed by some of the Greatest Christian minds in Medieval times and even to the present.

The Lucifer story was not even invented until about the 5th century. before this Satan was always a dragon or flying serpent - never an angel, nor is he ever called an angel in the OT or NT.

Actually the 7 headed dragon was meant to represent Rome, but satan is recognized as a living breathing dragon in much ancient Jewish and Christian scripture. If you do not know anything about this, you are contributing nothing to this discussion with your lack of knowledge about this subject. Dragons figure very prominently in the Bible as my book reveals. Just because your Sunday School teacher didn't tell you about the dragons of the Bible, it doesn't mean they ar not there.

No Ashley, Satan is not called an Angel in Revelation or Job. Just a Son of God, Serpent or Dragon, and I strongly suspect Seraphim is equivalent to Son of God in that context.

Ashley, Jesus said in (Mat 22:29) Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the Scriptures,nor the power of God.
He didn't say you err not having any visions, dreams, or NDE. God's word is His will for mankind. He does at times uses dreams, visions and
other things as long as it does not go against His word. If it does not line up with His word, then His word will override any experences. The
word should determine our experences. Our experiences should not change the word of God. Some of the thing you speak of are not revealed
in the word or validated by the word.

The seraphim and dinosaurs probably do have a common origin, just as Chimpanzees and man. The "great monsters" in the creation story (mistranslated as whales) are undoubted dinosuars, and are called Tannyn in Hebrew. In Psalms these same Tannyn sign praises to God and are undoubtedly the Seraphim which the Jewish Rabbis translated to dragons - great reptiles. No a T-Rex and a Seraphim are not the same thing, but share a common ancestry, just as man does with the lesser primates. Seraphim are intelligent reptiles with the ability to speak and sing, not only in the Bible, but in many other ancient cultures around the world. In fact, these dragons are about the only "supernatural thing in the Bible that are recognized by other ancient cultures.

Seraphim-dragons were never referred to as angels in the bible. The bible acknowledges human like angels (without wings), and fiery flying serpents/dragons/seraphim that do have wings. The Curch of the middle ages basically melded to two types of creatures together for the benefit of the ignorant peasants, though the great minds of the Chruch like St. Thomas Aquinas recognized the heavenly dragons/seraphim as seperate creatures from the angels, which clearly had a lower status than dragons. Don't blame me, that's what the Bible really says.

Just curious Draconic, why would Jewish Rabbi's use greek. The LXX is not an authorized Jewish text. In fact it was rejected by the Jews in 100AD. The LXX is plagued with more greek mythological overtones than the Massora by far. It seems that only seven translators of the LXX knew any Hebrew at all. It was not a Rabbinical undertaking at all but a very bad translation of the Massora with the Apocrypha which is also rejected. I think your research is backwards, you are plugging greek mythology into the Judaic thought rather than the other way around. Let's see one Jewish or Christian quote that they thought satan was a literal Dragon. You should get educated in figures of speech. The usage is "anthropopathia". This is a figure used when giving spirit being human or animalistic characteristics, but is not true to fact. There are 212 different figures used and documented by grammer scholars of the ancient texts. You are un-aware of them. Satan is no more an actual dragon than God is a burning bush. Bet you never learned that one in sunday school.

Always about the dragons...

It seems to me that your like for dragon fantasy has mislead you. Single most important thing about Christian faith is scripture. Scripture never states anything about dragons except for in Revelation. Perhaps you should read more of the Holy Bible than your other book and you would understand my points before you harp at me for not understanding. In a Christians faith the most important peice besides the Holy Spirit is the scripture of the Bible. To put your faith on anything but would be blasphemous, for the word of God is present in the Bible. By the way Cherubs are not Dragons and neither are angels or Satan. They are angels. When Jacob climbed the ladder what did he see and describe? Angels or Dragons? When The angel came to Mary and Joseph was it a Dragon or angel? When Samson's parents were fore told of Samson's birth was it by a Dragon or an Angel? When John was given the prophecy of Revelation was it a Dragons that spoke to him and blew the trumpets or Angels? Did Dragons hold the mouths of the lions in the pit with Daniel or Angels.

THe only Dragon ever present in the Bible is in Revelation and it is the mediphore I spoke of Defining Satan as the body and the nations as the heads. Satan is described as the Angel of the Bottomless Pit. Not the Dragon of the Bottomless Pit. Also with the Cherub. Who held a flaming sword and gaurded the gate of Eden? A Cherub and how was it described as a great mighty Angel not a Dragon.

I'm going to respond to this before draconic can because I know what he is going to say and I'll say it nicer.

Draconic believes that the scriptures of today have either bin rewritten, misinterpreted, or mistranslated. He agrees that Angels are not dragons and are human looking but without the wings...its the Seraphim, a special class of Angel, that are the dragons. Jacob, Mary, and the like didn't see the Seraphim they just saw the regular angels.

I think he also said that the image of dragons was edited out of the Bible because people at that time thought of dragons as monsters and evil beings(because of the medieval era where dragon lore was common). And The Church(or someone) didn't think it was a good idea to have God's helpers be considered monsters...its bad advertisement.

Draconic also states that in way back in the day dragons where actually accepted as the seraphim.

Draconic also states that the existence of Dragons is proven further by their existence in other world religions and world sightings.

Draconic has made a few references to older writings of the Bible, early religious teachings, and church architecture that supports his claims but I'm not sure he has provided a source as of yet.

But it all doesn't actually mean much because all where debating here is the physical apearence of Satan It really isn't a matter of changing beliefs.

From what I have read in the Bible and from other Jewish and Christian text is that they are Angels. In revelation they are only mentioned as the carriers of the Thrown of God. Same as Cherubs they watch the thrown of God and sing praises and never sleep. The Ark of the Covenant had Cherubs on them and they are depicted as angelic.

You are completely ignorant about this subject, and obviously never bothered to even read my post bfore spouting off more of your ignorance. If you had read it you would know that I agree the Bible acknowledges human-like angels that serve as messengers and observers to the human race. But heavenly creatures called Seraphim, Cherubim, Tannyn (translated to dragons in some scripture) and Destroyers are not human like at all. Seraphim means fiery flying serpent in Hebrew, and were translated to the word Drakone. The Cherubim were originally the tree guarding dragons in the earliest Sumerian version of the Eden story, and exactly TWO of them escort Adam out of the Garden. And this is why serpents/dragons guard sacred trees in human legends all around the world. Only Christianity has turned them into ridiculous swan winged humanoid angels.

The early christians were far closer to the original scripture than you could ever be. And they acknowledged the Seraphim were dragons. The Jewish book which inspired Christinity the most, the book of Enoch, clearly talks about the dragons in heaven. And parts of the New Testament have been stolen verbatim from this book, so if you think the whole NT is inspired sripture, then Enoch must be too. Other Christian books like the Apocolypse of Baruch confirm the same thing, dragons in heaven who swallow up the souls of the wicked. And these scentes decorate virtually every Cathedral in Europe. You do not know enough about ancient Christian art, and the early Christian scriptures to understand this. Your christianity is a modern mythology that has almost nothing to do with the ancient scritpures you pretend to hold so sacred. If you held them sacred, you would know a little more about their original meanings.

Satan is NOT described as the angel of the bottomless pit. The Pagan Greek demi-god Apollyon is. And Revelation is such a blatant plagiarism of Zoroastrian mythology that no intellegent Christian should take it seriously. Or if they do, they should be worshipping Ahura Mazda, becasue this is who the story was originally about, not Jesus, annd the bound up dragons is a dragon named Ahriman, brother of the dragon which these same Zoroastrians say is the God of the Bible. And despite this blasphemy, this mythology is considered sacred sripture to you and other Christians who have no idea of the pagan origins of the book of Revelation. The fallen angel Lucifer is a fabricated Christian nonsense and has no connection the the Satan of the Old Testament. Every authentic Biblical scholar knows this to be true, and it is why the Jews never acknowledged a "Lucifer". You see, the Jews actually understood the Hebrew language unlike the Romans desperately trying to find a connedtion between the Holy Torah, and the Zoroastrian-Hellenic mythology that perverts what is good in the New Testament.

Everything I have said about dragons in the Bible is fully documented as I have proven here, and will with a wealth of additional information and illustrations in the book itself.. The ancient Jews and christians fully acknowledged this fact as the original scriptures and archaeological finds and artwork reveal. The problem is that modern Christianity has created its own bizarre "mythology" that has little to do with the only authentic scripture Jesus acknowledged - the books of the Old Testament, that in Hebrew, clearly state the highest of heavenly creatures are winged serpents. Every schoolboy in Israel knows what a Seraph is, for the dragon-like form is painted on Israeli helicopters and they actually understand Hebrew. Only stupid Christians clueless to what the real Bible says, have turned them into fluffy cartoon angels stolen from pagan greco Roman mythology. Biblical angels never had wings. You would know that if you ever actually read the Bible. And if you ever did read it, you might know that the temple furniture was decorated with Cherubim. Well, the only piece of temple furniture that has been accurately depiected in ancient times and has survived to this day is the sacred Menorah, seven branched oil lamp. And guess what the winged creatures that decorate it are?. Dragons, of course, becasue these are the original Cherubim, documented all the way back to the dragons who guard the sacred trees and gates of heaven in Sumeria, the land which Abraham came from.

And yes Cadetake, you have figured it out, though some people are so blinded by their simplistic and concocted Sunday School beliefs that they do not comprehend what the real bible, and ALL of the ancient supporting documentation actually reveals. And I also agree that it should not matter to Christians that the Bible says the highest heavenly creatures are dragons. But it does matter to them, for the same reason they cannot see a compatibility with evolution and the Bible. They are filled with pride and arrogance and would rather create a false mythology than believe what the Bible really says.

I agree, it really should not matter that the highest heavenly creatures are dragons, but their arrogant pride prevents them from understanding this. But what is so amusing about their ranting is that in their total ignorance of their religion, that they do not understand that scriptures they hold so dear, like the Book of Revelation, is stolen almost verbatime from a Zoroastrian mythology that says the Biblical God Himself is also a dragon. I guess John of Patmos, was at least smart enought to leave that part out of his so-called "Revelation", or the Roman Emperor would have thrown that book out, as many Church leaders wanted him to do.

Ok first read mine. I did read yours and it really makes no sense. If you knew so much about dragon mythology you would know the heavy diffrence between such dragons of the Asian and European cultures.

Then again like I posted earlier, What are dipicted on the Ark of the Covenant? Cherubs and how are they depicted? Angels. Hmm. Also I have seen different art and dipictions of Cherubs and Seraphim and they were either depicted as either Angels with multiple wings or a sphinx like creature. Show me something of Dragons and I will take what you say into consideration. I researched such and found nothing but the depiction of Satan in Revelation which you claim is wow, false.

if satan was fully devoted to God, he would have bowed. since god had asked him to do it in the first place, satan was just being haughty since he was the first "son of fire" to be made an angel, pride got in his way.

And did not God state, "I shall make man in OUR image." Darn I dont look much like a Dragon how about any of you. Oh wait all scripture not of this book you claim to be the truth is false. Sorry........Nevermind.

But havent you heard? All Christian scripture including Satan the fallen is false! It is not in dragon mythology so it doesnt exist!

But aside from that good point. Pride was Satans down fall.

Jewish Rabbis used Greek because their world was dominated by Hellenistic culture when Alexander conquered their lands. Not only did they use Greek, but Greek Hell, Greek demons, and loads of other things from greek religion contaminated their own, and while this was largely purged by the jews in the later years, Christianity remains filled with this Greek paganism, not to mention the other great influence to Christianity of the time, Zoroastrianism, from which the Apocolypse story of John is stolen almost verbatim. But the Greek only confirms what the Hebrew language unquestionably establishes, that the Seraphim were winged serpent-like creatures, as further proven by the religions mesopotamain origins with the EXACT same guardian dragons, along with Eden and the Flood story.

There is no question that Seraphim were originally fiery flying serpents, which would be translated later to Drakones. In Ginzbergs Legends of the Jews, taken from ancient Jewish Talmudic literature, Satan is indeed a serpent-dragon, exactly as the Seraphim are described, and is commanded by God to swallow Moses, but spew him up again. And we see a similarity when the same Satan is allowed to kill Jobs relatives. And also in the ancient literature, Satan is the destoyer of the Egyptians.

Do you also think the fiery flying serpents (Seraphim) God sends to destroy the Israelites are also not really winged "dragons", but are fluffy swan winged angels like you imagine Satan? Why would a cartoon angel seem more real to you than what the Bible really says? And doesn't a winged dragon seem more realistic than a cartoon angel, when we consider people on every continent reported seeing these creatures, yet non report seeing your cartoon angels? You see, they never reported the cartoon angels with wings, because those winged creatures are the dragons they have been seeing for centuries. If you actually read the Bible you would know that the angels look exactly like normal men. On the other hand, Seraphim and Cherubim are called creatures and described with wings. Do you "get it" yet?

Chritians are uncomfortable with the authentic Satan of Judaism becasue it contradicts their mythology of Satan being a fallen angel who opposes God. You see, EVERYTHING in the OT states Satan WORKS for God. And this is why Lucifer was invented. Since there was noting about Satan that coincided with their Zoroastrian beliefs with the excption of him being a dragon, they had to invent a fallen angel and claim it was Satan's original name. Yet Jesus never mentions Lucifer. Why? Simple moondoggy, Christianity would not invent lucifer until centuries later, when they tried to turn Christianity into a version of dualistic Zoroastrianism, and needed the bad god to oppose the good one.

You still have not explained why dragons decorate the temple menorah as the Cherubim would, or why the modern Israli Army paints a dragon on their helicopter and calls it the Seraph from the Bible. Or why the Jewish encylcopedia itself admits that the most valid explanation for the seraphim is that they were serpents. You cannot answer these things because you know I am right. And I am right, becasue unlike you, I study the original source material, scripture and archaelology, instead of accepting the nonsense , as you do , that we were both taught in Sunday School.

Still havent answered my questions. You just keep overlapping your theories. And My opinon on the nonsense taught in Sunday School is mainly in your opinion it is nonsense because in your mind the dragon theory is way cooler. In my opinon your mythology sounds more like the story of the Gods, created in the Slayers Anime. And please prove to me like I have allready asked where your material is? If it considered cannon as you say it is it will be located everywhere but I cant seem to find it. By the way as a martial arts master I have studied many different martial arts including Dragon stylings. Please describe for me the founding and creation of Dragon styling. Is this a secret martial art taught to the shaolin by Angel/Dragons? Or is it what I know it to be and what has been taught to me. Are my masters liars? Please enlighten me.

Actually if you knew more abut the subject, you would know there are very close similarities between European and Asian dragon beliefs. Just becasut dragons were allowed to devour ignorant, bloodthirsty barbarians but not harm advanced peaceful cultures does not make the dragons different, it is because the people they relate with were different in the eyesof God. Even the Eastern and Western dragons of ancient times looked nearly the same, if you studied the archaeology as I have.

Well, I can prove the Cherubim on the ark looked like dragons, as you will see when the book appears soon. And this is why the sacred menorah has dragons on it, becasue these were the original Cherubim before they were paganized by Christianity. Just becasue you saw the ark with winged pagan greek angels in a bad movie or Sunday School coloring book does not mean it is right. I use ancient archaeology and scripture to prove I am right, not Christian coloring books.

You hav done no research. The original KJV is filled with dragons, not to mention fiery flying serpents which were once called dragons in the Greek version of the Bible. If you do not like the Greek origin word Dragon, don't use it. But the Hebrew word Seraphim still means fiery flying serpent, and the Jewish Rabbis themselves translated the word to Drakon.

(i'm just guessing this stuff)

In Isaiah 27:1 it emplies there is a serpent in the sea . (i hope not as i spend alot of time out there)

now im wondering in lithian the serpent is Satan and if SEA = peoples of the earth or masses .

in rev 12:15 it says the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman ,that he might cause her o be carried away . Could that mean Satan spreads False religion to a point the real church is hid ?

in verse 16 : And the earth helped the woman and the earth opened her mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth . HMM ?????

Could it mean the Pagans help the Church expose this flood of false religion? (And the earth helped the Woman ) Could it be after a while people relise this water thats been coming out of the serpents mouth is just water and not Fire .

The Fire comes out of the 2 witnesses . Fire must be mouths inspired by God . Water must be Inspired by Satan .


Im just wondering when it says the earth helped the Woman what it means . Could it be the pagans help the real church to expose modern christianity being nothing but stolen Pagan doctrines .

Or is that too far fetched ? I'm just guessing

I been thinking about that last post and i just can't see me being right about what it means by the earth opened her mouth . (pagans helping the church of God does sound a bit far fetched) .

Maybe the arc of the testamony is found? something helps the church expose the wave of false prphets . Maybe the end time eligah(but that would be part of the woman) . I'm just trying to figgure why it says the earth opened its mouth .

seems like something is going to swallow up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth .(something starts to get in the way of false religion )


Then Satan gets very Angry and starts persecuting the real church . Probly starts putting the saints to death and tortureing again.

(Where are you moondoggy ? I need some help figureing this out ,its bothering me) whats it mean by the earth helped the woman?
Who helps the Church ? that would be refered to as a her and the earth?

Well Nova, I will check the record for accuracy as far as translation is concerned then I can only tell you what most would say, "This is what I think it means...". Reply tonight.

I'm a bit confused as to this actual "verse" in the bible. I can't find anywhere, so I was wondering if it actually was said, what book of the bible did this "conversation" take place, and from which bible are you quoting? (ie NIV NKJ etc)

Its not in my bible either


maybe in catholic bible as I guess they got like 4 extra books

Nova RE: REV 12:16 It has no translational problems so either the subject matter is true to fact or idiomatic speech is used. Floods coming out of the mouth of Dragons is probably a figure for a different meaning. The context of the chapter implies this is referring to Mary and Jesus. The book of revelation is not all about future events but has a collage of events that are past, present and future. This appears to be a recount of the the record of the persecutuion of Jesus earl on in his childhood. The premise is that satan knew of the promised seed of the woman that was to redeem man from Gen 3:15 on. He apparantly has tried to wipe out the lineage line that Christ was to come from. The dragon is a spirit being and his flood was probably a flood of evil spirits. Mary did have to flee to Egypt becuae of Herod's persecutuion to kill all the young children. Evil spirits deal directly with the human mind and influenced Herod's decision. This record could not be referring to Noah's flood either, so it almost has to be allegorical in regards to a spiritual assault on mary and the young Jesus. If not then your guess is as good as anybody's

Hell, I would paint a dragon or some other beast that would invoke fear to on an army helicopter. Dude, the Jewish encyclopedia refutes what you say unless you are reading the babylonian origin of the story. The Jews did not apopt that theory at all. Next time you reference that I am going to paste the exact part that tells what the Jewish faith believed regarding the Seraphim and then everyon will see that it is accurate as it stands. I will have to see the menorah to comment on it. In fact I invite anyone interested to read it for themselves, because we are only two opinions here. It is on line and can be accessed easily. Good and bad has clearly been in the OT. The record where when David would play his harp for Saul the evil spirits would depart Saul. Where do you think these evils spirits came from originally?

I wouldn't get too worked up about the "hidden meanings of the dragon in Revelation, Moondog, for the fact of the matter is John of Patmos simply copied far older Zoroastrian scriptures to make his "Book of Revelation". Ahura Mazda and his angels fights the dragon and his angels, and the dragon is bound up and cast into the abyss. John just changed the name of the dragon from Ahriman to Satan, and said he was imprisoned for 1000 years instead of 3000 like Ahriman was. But Ahriman rebells again and is cast into the lake of fire, and of course, John does the same thing with his Satan.

So is this most significant book of the new testament nothing more than John's plagiarism of Zoroastrian mythology? It kind of looks that way, for it is copied almost verbatim. It is no wonder many chruch leaders did not want this embarrasment contained in the New Testament. So is God's appointed "Lord of the Earth" going to be imprisioned, and later burnt merely becasue a Persian fairytale dragon was, and John switched dragon names? Probably not. He has too much work to do in God's heavenly court bringing sinners to Justice. That's his real job in the only scriptures Jesus ever endorsed as real. I wonder what will happen to all of those ignorant Christians who have blighted the name of Gods most trusted assistant -- blaspheming God in the process, just to get pagans to join their religion by imitating dualistic pagan mythologies to make them happy. This is probably why Jesus did not return in the generation of his apostles as the New Testament plainly states in a number of places. Jesus warned his apostles that Satan sought to devour them, and undoubtedly that might have happened considering the pagan nonsense they stole, and called Holy Scripture.

I find the Persians to have a lot in common with Judaism and perhaps that is why there are similarities. Seems that only the names have changed like Noah and the Gilgamesh record. But is there substance there? Parts of Revelation may have been copied. But the first half deals with Jesus Christ addressing the churches, seriously doubt that the Zoroastrian texts had that one.

Moondog, you have no idea what you are talking about. The article mentions three theorys. The first is your modern angelology nonsense.

The second has nothing to do with dragons. See below, they merely associate it with an Assyrian fire god by a similar name.

THEN the articles author goes to the THIRD and what he states is the MOST PROBABLE theory, which has nothing to do with the Babylonian fire god, but EVERYTHING to do with the true meaning of the word Seraphim in the Hebrew language.. I have pasted it below so everyone can see you are wrong. The author of the article, an esteemed professor of Hebrew studies says what I have been saying is probably the most correct. The seraphim are literal winged serpent-dragons, and this supports the Egyptian serref as well.

From the Jewish Encyclopedia:
"According to other investigators, the conception was of Babylonian origin. Friedrich Delitzsch and Hommel associate the seraphim with the Assyrian "sharrapu," a name which, in Canaan, designated the Babylonian fire-god Nergal. The seraphim, then, would be the flames in which this god manifested himself. An argument against this theory is that until now no one has been able to show that the word "seraph" was ever used as a name of a god. According to a third and more probable theory, the seraphim originally were serpents, as the name implies. Among many peoples of antiquity serpents played an important part in myth and folk-lore. For instance, there were Tiamat in the Babylonian legend of the Creation, and the Uræus serpent in Egypt. Consequently, since the Jews shared the superstitious ideas of surrounding nations in other respects, it should not be a matter of wonder if they adopted this notion as well. That the serpent filled a special rôle among them as a demoniacal being may be seen from the story of Adam's fall (Gen. iii.). In this connection the names "Dragon Spring" and "Serpent Pool" (places in the vicinity of Jerusalem) are worthy of being noted. A brazen serpent brings relief from the effects of the bite of the fiery serpents (Num. xxi. 9 et seq.) which Yhwh sent among his disobedient people in the wilderness. Isaiah (xiv. 29, ***. 6) speaks of fiery, flying serpents and dragons; and a brazen serpent, Nehushtan, stood in the Temple at Jerusalem, and was an object of worship until the time of Hezekiah, who destroyed it as being idolatrous (II Kings xviii. 4 et seq.). The worship of Nehushtan was plainly a remnant of ancient superstition, and was reconciled with the worship of Yhwh by connecting Nehushtan with the scourge of snakes in the wilderness and the rescue from them (Num. xxi. 9 et seq.). Therefore the theory seems possible, even probable, that the seraphim have their counterpart in the flying serpents of Isaiah (comp. also II Esd. xv. 29). It is only natural that these winged guardians of Yhwh's throne were soon ranked as higher beings and invested with the human form or with some features of the human body; and it was because of the very fact that they were adopted into the Yhwh cult that they were, in process of time, ennobled and spiritualized"

So this is why dragon-emblazoned attack helicopters are called Seraphim in israel. You see Moondog, these people speak Hebrew fluently, and really know what the word means, UNLIKE your ignorant American sunday school teachers who know nothing aobut the language, or the bible, yet have the utter gall to write concordances to give false information to other ignorant Christians who know even less than them. And this is why there are dragons on the sacred temple menorah, the ark of the covenant, and the brazen serpent staff of Moses. The Ancient Jews and Chritians fully understood the Seraphim and Cherubim were dragons. EVERY piece of ancient, authentic evidence supports whiat I have said from the beginning. The ONLY thing supporting your views are Sunday School Coloring Books with their nonsensical swan-winged cartoon angels that do not appear any place in the real Bible. Give it up Moondog, you have not produced a singel pieces of scriptural evidence that supports your paganized Christian nonsense. Your beliefs are a modern concocted "Christian Mythology" that repeatedly contradicts the only scriptures Jesus ever acknowledged as true. You ask who sent the Evil spirits to Saul. The Bible says GOD did. Just as it says he hardened Pharoahs heart. The Old Testament Satan is responsible for none of this. He is nothing but God's obedient servant. The Old Testament plainly states God is responsible for all good and all evil. But this Monotheistic theology cannot be understood by gentiles, so in the "gentile bible" (New Tstament) a pagan dualistic theology was created that made Satan responsible for the evil in the world, contradicting the only Bible Jesus ever endorsed as the word of God.

Everything you thought you knew is wrong. The real God of the real Bible rides on the back of terrifying man eating dragons and considered dragons his highest ranked servants and associates. He alone, and not Satan is repsonsible for all the evil and misfortune in the world, and he appointed this dragon as "lord of the Earth" No fallen angels, no war in heaven, all a Christian myth stolen from a persian fairytale. Now is it any wonder they never told you the truth in Sunday School?

If Satan was actually kicked out of heaven, then why was he in heaven talking to God in the book of Job? And I also feel that your reference to "son of clay" is also from the book of Job, when God and Lucifer were talking about Job himself. In my understanding on this subject anyway, is that Lucifer has given the title "fallen angel" after he challenged God, and told God that he was jealous of him. (Not because Lucifer simply asked why he should bow to man)

Ashley's stuff is taken from the book of Enoch, which currently is rejected by both mainstream Judaism and Christianity. It did however inspire much in the New testament. In fact, parts of the New Testament have been directly copied out of Enoch, just as parts of Revelation were copied directly out of Persian mythology.

But you are absilutely right. Satan should not be in heaven, talking to, and killing people for God if he was a fallen angel. And this is becasue he wasn't a fallen angel.. Satan is never connected with the serpent in Eden in the Old Testament, nor is he Lucifer, which has nothing to do with any fallen angel. It is about the king of Babylon being compared to a Cherub, which was not a particular endearing comparision because the ancient Jews and Christians alike understood that Cherubs were a kind of terrifying dragon which God rides on the back of in both II Samuel and Psalms. And yes, in ancient and medieval depiections, the creature God rides on is a dragon, not a gigantic chubby angel as Christians now believe a Cherub to be.

In the only Bible Jesus ever endorsed, Satan remains a trusted servant of God, no war in heaven, no fallen angels. All a Christian mythology with no scriptural basis.

Naturally you quoted the part that excludes the Jewish Angelology. I will pull it up and quote it so all can see what bias you utilize. Only a nitwit would think Dragons are Seraphim. I personally do not care even if they did believe this nonsense. But in order for someone to come up with this is a real stretch of th imagination. You are wrong on most counts I have encountered with you. But your research is fitting for stories like Lord of the Rings or King Arthur, but have no place in ancient theological history of any religion. Jesus did not share your view of satan either and revealed what he is according to the gospels. You do not like Revelation for obvious reason, you throw out or criticize what your preconceived notions are. If the persian faith is a fairy tale then so is the sumerian and so forth. The scriptural evidence has been clear for 2000 years, you do not like it. But it stands and will stand even though critics come and go.

I don't think its Talking of Mary and Christ Moondoggy because Christ warns in Mathew 24 that just before the tribulation many false prophets would rise . And amoes predicts a famine of Truth in the last day .

So i think in verse 15 when the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman that he might case her to be carried away of the flood . I think its Predicting a Complete Explosion of false Prophets before the End of mans goverment . I think it matches mathew 24 . when Christ says many false prophets would rise . And when Amoes predicts a Famine of truth before the End.

The Tribulation of this earth in the future is A result of False churches taking away the real knowledge of God . You can prove this by reading Hosea the 4th chapter . You can see its talking about end time as it says even the fish of the sea shall be taken also . The oceans have always been full of fish till just lately we have just about distroyed all fish stocks .So its end time prophecy .
The reason God forgets our children or allows his people to be distroyed is because they have forgotten his laws . They forget his laws beause the spirit of whoredomes have caused them to err .(false prophets or false churches riseing is what ruins us so God needs to punish us )

The flood after the Woman = hides her by surrounding her in False Churches (churches that teach he people to forget Gods laws). I'm sure im right about that .
But verse 16 got me Stumped , something gives the church a boost . as the church does come out in hideing before the end as a in numerable number is baptised out of gentile nations dureing the tribulation . and 144,000 out of the 12 tribes of isreal .

Maybe its just the tribulation that helps the church , The 2 witnesses . Something gives the Church a boost and it inreturn Makes Satans Churches Start Killing and tortureing the Real Saints again ,Just before the End.

OK Draconic I will make this as painless as possible: Quotes by Hirsch and Benzinger from the Jewish Encyclopedia. "Seraphim a class of heaveny beings, mentioned only once in the old testament...They were winged beings, each having six wings-two covering their faces, two covering their feet, and two for flying... Nevertheless, it may be concluded from the description that the seraphim were conceived as having human faces, human hands, and human voices..." This section was not even referenced from the "Angelology" section which gets their theology from Maimonides who was a scholar and a Rabbi.

Babylonian origins do not count for Jewish theology. If it were not for the rejected book of Enoch which is in greek you would have zero basis on which to stand. Again you are trying to plug the word "drakones" which is greek and make it apply to the original hebrew meaning. Why do you not see that the greek language has far more mythological base to it than hebrew?

There are a lot of people who use greek concordances or lexicons and interchange words in verses haphazardly without any knowledge of syntax. They use lets say a strongs concordance and see a word that has been translated different ways, so they apply it to their liking, this is all you are doing because I am sure you have no knowledge of the ancient languages by your posts. Your research may suit your books but what is it based on? One greek word from the book of Enoch??? You would do better to remain in greek mythology because it is more suited to your dragon fetish, but clearly it has no place in hebrew theology what so ever.

Read the context Nova, Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a male child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron, and her child was caught up unto God and to his throne. Also verse 7-9 tell of the original mutiny in heaven. This is all past tense language not future.

Moondoggy its hard to tell when its future and when its past .Chapter 13 is all future .

Sometimes scriptures are layered in meanings too ,most the time they are .

Like i find old testament storys often have a modern day message , probly all have a hidden layered meaning if we figgure them out .

I do know the bible predicts the end of this age starts with an explosion of false prophets . And from what i see in hosea 4 these false churches will teach people to forget Gods laws .

Modern christianity mostly does this . You hear them all the time preaching they are saved by grace so shouldn't be trying to keep the laws .

But in hosea 4 forgetting the laws is why we get distroyed . And its harlots that make this happen . The same harlots of rev 17 . The daughters of the Woman in the seven hills .

Its our churches leading us to be distroyed . Hosea 4 is a end time prophecy its got to be .


Im not sure im right about rev 12 being future in last few verses but i could be as verse 1 of chapter 13 is .

For someone who claims to be a Biblical Researcher, Moondog, you have very poor reading and comprehension skills. You have apparently read the Jewish Encyclopdia article several times now, and you still do not understand that the last section about what Seraphim actually means in Hebrew has nothing to do with the section which trys to connect Seraphim with a Babylonian fire God. Actually you should like that one, because it uses the false idea of Seraphs meaning fiery, instead of serpents which you have such a problem with. But read it again, and you will see that the author plainly states that the flying serpent connection is the most pluasible one because of the actual meaning in Hebrew, which you simply do not understand. But it is amusing to see that you think you know more about this than the imminent Hebrew scholars who wrote the Jewish Encyclopedia. But in truth, you know far less about the Hebrew language than every Israeli school child who understands the seraphim are heavenly dragons, and why the Israeli attack helicopter has that name.

You have admitted by your own posts you are quite ignorant of Biblical era history, though I give you great credit for your knowledge of non-Biblical Christian mythology. But you expertise in that is an expertise in nonsense, for it has no scriptural backing, like your acknowledgement of a fallen angel called "Lucifer", which is nothing more than an early Christian mistranslation about a passage relating to the King of Babylon.

It is amazing that you do not even understand the significance of ancient Jews translating the Seraphim to Dracones. It has nothing to do with the scriptual validity of Enoch (even though parts of the NT are stolen directly from it, word for word). But in those times Enoch was widely read, and Christianity drew heaveily from it. The point is simply that this proves the ancient Jews and Christians understood the true meaning of the word Seraphim, because of this translation, as well as other Christain scriptures about dragons in heaven. And further corroborating evidence is the ancient Christian art that depicts dragons surrounding Gods throne in the role of Seraphim, or the book of Psalms that describes dragons singing praises to God, just as the Seraphim.

As I stated before EVERY piece of ancient sriptural and artistic/artifactual evidence supports what I am saying. We have far more proof today than your pathetic medieval Rabbi who simply imitated Christian mythology. The most learned scholars support the view of heavenly flying serpents, the original scriptures do, and the ancient archaeology does. The only thing that doesn't is you modern Christian mythology based on nothing more than human arrogance that Gods highest servants must look like people.

You cannot make a scholarly argument for your nonsensical sunday school ideas, so you can only insult me about dragon fetishes and fantasy movies. You are such a fool. You are not insulting me, you are insulting your own religion that you are simply too ignorant to understand. Winged serpents, or dragons, call them anything you want, but the real biblical scriptures acknowledge them. It cannot be denied by any serious scholar, only fools who have blindly followed a Christian mythology that has no scriptual basis. So if you think what I am saying is stupid, you are really just saying the Bible is stupid, because the Bible, the archaeology, the comparitive religions, ALL support what I am saying. Your own conceit in believing a non-scriptural, modern Christian mythology that supports your own arrogance is the only thing you have going for you. And it is nothing. It is not from the Bible.

I am offering a last chance friendly reminder to everyone that it is important to remain civil with each other in these discussions; I keep seeing more and more personal jabs at each other and it is out of line and moreover unnecessary. In the future I will simply issue warnings and if need be give people time off to calm down.

Please be civil, thank you.

The evidence is clear that the Jewish encyclopedia regards seraphim as the angelic order and that they look far more like men than dragons. So what? I would not base my theology on the encyclopedia anyway. I would use the cannonized text called the Massora. I think people can read it for their own and decide. I posted what was written. Besides how in the world did you spin this thread into seraphim again? Try keeping to the subject matter. I swear this is ridiculous anytime someone post anything at all regarding Judaic theology, here you go with your dragon stuff and conspiracy theory. I have shown in rebuttal what I have found that refutes your theory in many other posts using Hebrew and Aramaic references. Do not get angry about it that other people which includes 99% of the scholarly world disagrees with your findings.

You cannot even understand what you are reading moondog. Yes the author does put forward the "pagan swan-winged cartoon angel theory", as well as the "Babylonian fire god theory". But then he goes on with what he says is the third and MOST PROBABLE theory about Seraphim being Fiery flying serpents because of the meaning of the words in the Actual Hebrew Language. For someone who pretends to be a Biblical scholar why can't you comprehend that? And not only is he right about the language, BUT ALL OF THE ANCIENT SCRIPTUAL AND ARCHAEOLOGICAL MATERIAL SUPPORTS THIS VIEW. The ONLY thing you can provide to counter the overwhelming ANCIENT scriptures and archaeological finds, is a medieval Jewish Rabbi who imitated Christian mythology that made pagan, swan winged greco Roman Gods in into the forms of creatures which in the Hebrew language means Fiery Flying Serpents.

If 99% of the "scholarly world" disagreed with my findings, why does the highly respected Jewish Encylopedia and every other respectable scholarly source not controlled by Christian interests agree with me? What part of "most probable" don't you understand? The only people who disagree are just more Christians like yourself who know surprising little about ancient Christian beliefs and scriptures. Instead you accept mythology based on pagan religions that has very little to do with the real bible. Why does every Hebrew speaker in Israel recognize Seraphim as heavenly dragons, so much so it is the name of their main attack helicopter? You cannot answer this, or anything else, because your beliefs have nothing to do with the real Bible. Your mythology is a mixture of Greco Roman, Persian and Jewish legends approved by a murdering Roman Emperor, and labled "Christianity". Do not pretend it is based on the bible. You continue to deny what the Bible actually says, becasue of your arrogance, yet pretend you are a "Biblical Scholar". You have demonstrates here that you do not even know the difference between Sumerian beliefs of 4000 BC and Persian Beliefs of 33 AD. You know, the ones on which much of Christianity is imitated, including the "Satan mythology" in the Book of Revelation. Your only responses are childish namecalling, because no ancient scriprtural souce contradicts what I am saying, only your later, invented mythology that is not part of the Bible.

Still havent answered my question and I've been gone for two days. God, when he created man looked to the other angels among him, Cherubs and Seraphims(who are recored in both texts as the superior heavenly bodies of God's kindom) and said I will make man in OUR image. Im sorry but I have never seen a man that looked similar to any Dragon. Except for maybe in D&D and other fantasy. So answer if Gods superior beings are dragons the very ones that he councels with who helped him create the world. Why would he say such a thing and why then dont we look like dragons?

The Jewish encyclopedia states clearly their position and I gave the actual quotes. They do not agree with you at all. Sorry but the proof is there. I have yet to find one Jewish commentary that even come remotely close to your suggestions. I am not the one name calling. So move on and we all will look forward to your posts when someone has a question about the seraphim. I am actually rather amused by it all.

Thanks. Glad I have someone who agrees with me. He still hasnt answered my question above even though I put it in three posts. His dragon theory seems to be more of someone mixing mythology with religious text. Something I see all the time done.