When satan said 'why should a son of fire (an angel) bow down to a son of clay (Adam)' beseides being insolent, was he right? Should an angel bow down to a human? Or should they bow to God alone, since humans are to bow to God, and only God.

Whilst that little statement is the reason he was kicked out, did it reinforce his love and loyalty to God, by bowing to Him alone?

Something to think about.

No one should bow down to anyone.

God isn't just 'anyone'.

well as you know I accept the new testament . And according to this the Angels will be Judged by the Church some day .

So the Sons of Clay end up being something higher then Angels. I think Satan is just one big old abortion doctor , He knows what hes aborting .

Hold on, even in the NT it says humans are below angels.

It's true there will come a day when fallen angels are judged by humans, but shouldn't humanity show the same kind of compassion angels show for humans?

We might be below Angels now but not after we are Born Again .


Just What is Man that thou considerest him ????


Old Satan knows what he is Aborting he can read the 8th chapter of romans .

Well, no it doesn't say you are higher than angels if you are 'born again'. Are you a Born Again Christian?

What would you say if God forgave satan? Satan was God's favourite angel, and the most powerful angel.

I always wondered why god let the rebellious angels live, after their war in heaven. Omniscience had to know the pending revolt and yet, instead of destroying the devil, god let him and his minions to live and be a temptation unto the humans they had earlier been asked to serve. So that now, rather than benevolent servants they became malevolent adversaries of gods will for his human creation. Why put humans, that god is said to have held above the angels, (hence the rebellion), in the middle of that god/adversarial position!? If god wanted only the best for his creation, and free will exists, why allow the devil be negative aspect, after the angels rebelled to serve the good of humankind, so as to serve to tempt them away from heaven?! Why let the devil live, when god does destroy the wicked in mankind, why not his own angels?!

It's always struck me as odd, like that.

Know ye not that we shall judge Angels ? how much more things that pertain to this life 1corth 6;3

Im not Born at this time i'm only Begoten .

I can still be aborted

To accurately judge you need a prosecuter and a defence .

Just happened to be a prosecuter laying around

Hey, that really is something to think about . I think Satan had a point there. But, doesn't Satan give or tempt sinners to do more sinful things? Wouldn't that, in a way, make him bow down to humans?

Well, satan's job (along with other accusing angels) is to tempt, test and accuse humanity. Still what he does he does for God, he works for God, God sends satan to test humanity for their devotion to him.

We have free will and that's why there is testing. The entire reason fro the creation of the human race was to 'see who among your race would love or abhor Me' (God). God doesn't hate sin so much as He hates the ignorance that is in him to sin (2 Enoch). If there were no test, how would God know who loves Him?

Here's a little dirty secret of satan's. The reason he gets his way with God (sometimes) is because when the Mirror of Truth (something angels use to see right through someone) is shone on him the only thing God can find is pure intent. Everything he does is for love for God. So he jumps up and down like a tyrannical brat and begs God to let him tempt/test/accuse/destroy someone and God at times lets him. Problem is though satan whats to be the ONLY one in Heaven alone with God and will cast any angel out, or prevent any human from getting in to do it.

Satan has 2 purposes He is an abortion Doctor . He can and does kill real Christians at times if they let him by giving up and queching the spirit . So they will never be born in the Spirit world they will die here .


Satan is a Birth control devise he decieves the whole world so as they will not recieve the Holy Spirit .

You need the holy Spirit to be begotton of God .

Its like a woman does indeed need the sperm from a man before a other child can be born .

A man is like the Egg in a females body most never get fertilised because satan is aloud to stop it .

But every once in a while a Man does make it around al the deception and recieve Gods spirit .Then we Got a new Creature in Christ waiting to be Born . Will it Be Born ? I hope so .

But Satan does manage to abort some of these New creatures from being Born . Some do reject the Spirit in them till death . This would be a abortion of a Child of God .

It can happen or Satan would just give up .

Sheesh, Nova Scotia, is "abortion" on your Word of the Day calendar?

If it was an order from God, what's he doing disobeying God? If God told him to bow down to a stick, if he was an obedient servent, he would. It seems a statement of pride, singing his own song.

satan knows romans 8 verse 13 is real And he knows that is wrote to real saints .

which are the begotten who hope to be born again.

Do you know that the Jewish people - indeed all those who keep the Holy Shabbat (Friday sunset to Saturday sunset) have an extra soul? Jewish people have two souls to begin with and on Shabbat they have 3.

Well that's the reason he was cast out for it. But, like I said, angels, and indeed humans are meant to bow to God alone.

And people hate Satan for such things.




So God is just as bad for letting him, yet no one seems to show the same kind of hatred to God even though as you said sometimes he lets Satan do those things.


I dont thinkianyone should bow down to anyone else or God or Satan or anything for that matter. Hold your head up high not grovel at someones feet no matter how important they are. Im sure God would understand if people did not bow down to him/her/it since most people tend to make out God as all loving and understanding.


If angels are real then no they should not bow down to humans and humans should not bow down to angels. And if God is real and created both then yes be greatful for your existence and life so try and make the most of it but dont bow down and grovel because what's the point of living if it is to wimper and constantly praise someone for it. That's just my thoughts. lol sorry if it looked like a rant.

Well, bowing down to someone isn't 'grovelling' it's a sign of respect.

I'll also add that when God so chooses He sends His angels to burn the tablets of satan so He doesn't have to hear about his b****ing. Every matter is weighed. Sometimes the scales weigh in satan's favor, sometimes not.

Satan felt he was the most powerful thing in existence. Even more powerful than God himself, and he felt that man had fault and that He (Satan) was infailable.

Though provoking to say the least. The point on God destroying wickedness in man, Sodom and Gomorrah, for one and not legions of angels does seem a bit, almost unjust, and yet God is supposed to be extremely just. He forgives us all manner of sin, yet will not or cannot forgive Lucifer his transgressions. And yes my standard christian answer is a bit disconcerting. "We can't know the mind of God and will see the justice when we get to heaven." I will admit it does tend to poke a few holes in the whole 'loving, just Heavenly Father" side of it.

Just to put in my two cents, the Bible, (in the original language) says that man was made a little lower the God not Angles. Angles are not created in the likeness
and image of God. God does not use Satan to act in any way for or against mankind. Yes God knows everything before it happens and He knew that Lucifer would turn on Him and He would kick him out of Heaven and He knew Adam would sin in disobedence by eating of the tree of knowlege of good and evil. I don't beleive there is any scripture that would show that God is in cahoots with satan.
In the book of Job, he said "The Lord give and the Lord takes". Now that statment has been quoted over and over by well meaning people, but if you look at the story it was not God, but satan woh went from God and did the evil on Job. Job said later that what he had greatly feared had come upon him. Fear or faith will come to pass on all without respect to anyones person. God is for you and satan is against you. Period!

The premise of God making Adam in his image is that Man was a complete being . The image of God being spirit. Man lost this spirit. The angels were not be be ruler of the earth, man was. But man is hardly in dominion of anything today let alone himself. The curse bears its mark to this day on the planet and the human race. The Christ or Messiah is not some "fire escape from hell" that 99% of christendumb teaches today. But rather the second Adam who regained sonship for mankind. This is what being born again is all about. Not some fleety emotional religious experience, but a true and literal rebirth of the spirit of God within a human being. The Messiah had to undo what Adam had brought about. That part is done, now the second part of the messiah's role has yet to be seen.

In an earlier post the OP said that Satan was God's favorite angel. God dosen't have favorites, does he? And, I think that God may forgive Satan, for God is a forgiving entity. Yes, there's a low, low, lower than 0.001% chance of that happening, but it's a chance nonetheless. And if God did forgive Satan, what would the Church's reaction be?

In case you're wondering, I'm an optimist, and believe that everyone deseves a second chance.

I'm not entirely sure what story where going with here but I don't blame the guy...God favored us over the angels. We are
flawed, decietfull, disobedient beings but God favors us over the angels who always served and obeyed him. To top it off the angels have to serve us.

God plays favorites.

You make a good point. But consider all the angels and what they have seen and been a part of. They never had to experience death at least to our knowledge. Sure they have served Him. But hey I bet it is a really cool ride. I am not sure they serve us or not, but if I had a choice because they know what they are, we still no matter how much faith we say we have, we doubt. We are not sure all the time. I think they got the better deal.

Like I said it all depends on what version of the "War in Heaven" story we are going with or if there even was one.

Hmm the angels trade in their freedom for knowledge...we have our freedom but not the knowledge. The thing is though we will eventually get the knowledge but the angels will never get their freedom...unless they rebelled.

Angels do serve us in a sense...they have to deliver messages between God and us, be Gaurdian Angels, etc.

Satan's reasonings for rebelling are justifiable...I may have done the same.

Probably wrong here, but I was always under the impression that Humans had freewill whereas Angels did not, Satan tried to overthrow God's rule, he was thereby "cast down".

I've never heard of Satan asking why Angels should bow down to Humans or vice versa.

Always aim for the highest, you can't go far wrong then lol.

i can't find them verses in my bible. whats it in a catholic bible or something?

It depends on what story and what version your looking into...a lot of it isn't biblical canon. I'm not sure exactly where the "War in Heaven" stories originate from...but its probably one of those excluded books of the Bible...you know those ones that may or not be fake.

For Satan to defy God he would have had to have freewill.

Yes, GW, it would be odd if it were true. But these silly notions have nothing to do with the real Bible. First, it is common knowledge among Hebrew scholars that Lucifer is a Christian invention, and has nothing to do with the Biblical Satan. It is also common knowledge that Satan is not identified as the seducer of Eve anywhere in the Old Testament. This is also part of the Christian mythology, and completely contradicted by the Old Testament that counts Satan as a trusted Son of God long after Genesis. There are no rebellious angels or war in Heaven. This is stolen from dualistic Persian Zoroastrianism. Yes, there were some disobedient angels that wanted to have sex with human women (for angels are merely immortal young men), but they were not rebelling from God, they were just horny.

And Satan is not even an angel. He is a man eating fiery flying serpent. Nowhere in the Bible is he referred to as an angel. The only physical description of him in Both the Bible and related Jewish texts is a serpent or dragon, and Jesus warned that he sought to devour humans, and in ancient Hebrew scriptures God sends him to swallow (but release) Moses as a terrifying warning for not circumcising his son. Satan has always worked for God in the real Bible, but Christianity is a dualistic religion intended for pagans who did not understand the concept of a monotheism. Based on Zoroastrianism, Christianity needed an evil opposer to the good god, like the evil dragon Ahriman in Persian mythology, so Satan was picked by the founders of ancient Christianity, becasue unlike modern Christians they knew that the Seraphim were dragons, and they picked the Seraph known as Satan to be the "bad God" to oppose the "good God" in their dualistic theology, because of his role as the heavenly prosecutor of Job, and killer of his children and servants (as God allowed him to do). What better Biblical character to duplicate the Ahriman dragon of Persian mythology which Christianity is based?

Jesus said he came not to "Change the Law", but his followers sure did. They rewrote the whole thing and turned Jesus' teachings into a "Greek friendly" version of Pagan Persian mythology.

Maybe Zoroaster was right.

He IS referred to as an angel in Job. A son of God (Benai Elohim) which means angel. What the hell are you talking about. Not to meantion the countless other books referring to him as an angel. I assure you, he is an angel. And angels have many forms, such as Asiel (Azazel, Azael, Azza, and other variant spellings all meaning the same angel) who can appear as a man or as an angel with 6 pairs of wings 7 snake heads and 14 faces, or as a Watcher (Asiel is a Benai Elohim - Watcher/Irin Qaddism) with humanlike form but of extreme height. And the war in Heaven is clearly stated in Revelation.

As for the verse it's in The Life of Adam and Eve. It's also in the Koran.

I'm awaiting your reply Moondooggy....

The Pauline epistles support the role of satan as being an angel who fell. The Pauline epistles have a date range from 50 to 65 AD. He references the appropriate Roman govonors of the time as well and the high priest in Jerusalem. Paul also was a Pharisee who was taught by Gamaliel. His Jewish theology has credibility to it. This notion of corruption that christianity took on a dualistic theology is nonsense. Corruption took place far after the death of the original apostles and disciples at about 325 AD. But the thology of the texts predated the Roman influence by 200 years.

The least person in heaven is greater than the greatest person on earth.

Psalms8:4.
What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that
thou visitest him?


Psalms8:5.
For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned
him with glory and honour.


Matthew 11:11.
Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not
risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least
in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.


Nevertheless Satan should obey the creator.

One aspect I have allways looked at is that Satan/Lucifer does not want forgiveness. He with his rebellious mind still thinks he can win. But he has changed the battle plan. He could not stand up to God and win he thought that and lost. So whats the next worst thing he can do? He cant harm God on the outside so he'll attack him on the inside. Just like the bad guy in a action flick. The bad guy cant whoop the good guy so he goes after his family and the ect. Satan cant kill God so he'll kill what God loves most, Mankind. God's forgiveness is plainly shown in books such as Job. Satan was cast out but he was just as easly welcomed in. Satans plan is apperent to God but God still askes what he has been doing on earth, which is basicly spreading sin. To rub salt in the wound God brags about Job. and the ever contradicting, corrupting Satan does such when he tries to turn the tables on God by teorizing that if God turned his grace from Job that Job would curse God. So to prove that the Satan has no case on the matter God allows him to bring calamity to Job. "Do all you can but do not kill him." Was the only rule God gave to Satan which just proves that even in his rebelion God still has authority over him and all he does. Because if Satan did not fear the wrath of God or wasnt still controlled by him why didnt he kill Job?

Problem was that not all were as pure and obidient, as it is presently shown throught the Old Testament. Satan to an extent was winning this new battle he waged against God. So God being the ever fair rule maker put a new pawn on the chess board, Jesus Christ. Now Christ was never trully set in stone as God on Earth, he still could sin and be tempted. If that was not the case Satan would never be allowed to Tempt him like he did in the desert. And if he truly was God on Earth Satan would never even tried to tempt him in such a way because How can you really tempt the all knowing creator of all, God? Satan did his best to remove Christ from the Earth. From Herod to the crucifixtion. But even he did not expect Christ to turn his death into the grandure that Christ did even though this was the plan of God all along. Satan knew of the plan but did his best to prevent it because he knew that this would be his true down fall if this was allowed to happen. So know we are here in the present were Satan works his best and hardest. Same battle plan but diffrent stratagy. All God really did was up the difficulty for Satan really because now mankind has Christ as a way out of Satan's grasp. So in return Satan upped his effort. And went from OT accuser to NT corruptor. At least thats my thoughts on the matter.

Well John of Patmos certainly thought so. The myth of a war in heaven, Satan being bound, and cast into an abyss, rebelling again and finally cast into the lake of fire, were also stolen by "John" from Persian Zoroastrianism. Only the name of the angel and dragon was changed, and Ahriman was imprisoned in the abyss for 3,000 years instead of Satan's 1000. It is no wonder this pagan nonsense barely made it into the Bible. It is just a Persian fairytale with the names changed to familiar bible characters, and the proof is there, for this is a much older religion. Old enough, for the Jews to be contaminated with it when imprisoned in Babylon, and it was not until this time that dualistic tendencies creep into the theology. So after this time, Enoch and other Apochryphal books were written, and this is the origin of the evil, New Testament Satan and his legion of (nonexistent) demons.

But if you think "Zoraster was right", don't forget that in the Zoroastrian "Bible", the God of the Jews is also a dragon. So maybe Ashely is right about the dragon Satan being a "literal" son of God, and this is why Zoraster says the Hebrew God is a dragon, and might explain why the Seraphim are the highest heavenly creatures for they are his "dragon" offspring. I guess this explains all the Bible verses about God spewing fire from his mouth and smoke from his nostrils, exactly like his Seraphim dragon "Sons". Maybe this is why Jesus said his symbol was the bronze winged serpent made by Moses.

But this might explain why God arranged to have a human son through Mary, since all of his heavenly "sons", like Satan, were Seraph-dragons, or at least, this is what the Bible implies.

Personally however, I believe God is probably just an amorphous mass of energy, since he existed before either man or reptile existed. The reason the Seraphim are the oldest, highest creatures, and considered his Sons, is because of a thing called evolution, and these creatures are a kind of enhanced dinosaur or pterosaur, much as humans, millions of years later, are sort of an enhanced Chimpanzee. This is why Seraphim are "higher" than angels. Angels could only come about in the same time as mankind, and in fact, this is what the original Adam story was all about. There were already humans established on the earth as the original version explains, and is consistent with science. Adam was a baker in a Sumerian city who was merely being recruited by a Seraphim-dragon (the winged, talking serpent), to become an angel. These were the only humans granted eternal life. The rest of us live and die, though worthy souls are allowed an existence.

After retelling the story as an oral tradition for over 1000 years after the original was written down in Sumeria, the illiterate Hebrew shepherds managed to mix things up a bit, turning God's servant-dragon into the villain and adding Eve to the story, to justify why they treated their woman like cattle.

Ashley,
None of that nonsense you are spouting comes from the Bible - none of it. Most of it is nonsensical Medieval angelology, both Jewish and Christian, that has no basis in the Bible or any ancient scriptures. Everything I have stated here comes from the truly ancient Hebrew texts combined with what we know of science and evolution to create a plausible explanation for the Bible, and why "dragon-like" creatures play similar roles in religions all over the world.

To you both: It is the ancient Jews themselves that verified that the highest heavenly creatures were reptilian, and translated them to the Greek word Drakones. This is historical fact you cannot change. And the early Christians merely substantiated this, as their scriptures and art unquestionably reveals. Your modern ideas of swan winged angels, a rebellious Satan, demons, etc. is a mythology of both Christians and Jews which saw its origin in both religions accepting elements of Hellenistic mythology and dualistic Persian Zoroastrianism, with the selection of the Seraph Satan from the Bible, to become the surrogate of the Zoroastrian dragon-devil Ahriman. Most Jews today realize the mistake, and have purged this dualistic mythology from their theology, save for the converted former Christians who cannot get their Sunday School, dualistic mythology out of their heads, like you, Ashley.

Excuse me it IS in the Bible...Book of Job and Revelation. Can you read?

I will agree with Ashley here. It is not in the Bible this dragon mythology you speak of. The dragon Satan in Revelation is not technacly a Dragon. It is a representation of the nations that will come against the saints at the end of days hence the multiple heads and the crowns they adorn. The dragon is used because it is a scary massive monstorous creature, much like these nations when combined will be. Just like the Anti-Christ is a monstorous beast in representation. with its many heads with the crowns. The heads represent the leaders of the nations that will support the Anti-Christ during his short rein.

Exactly...ND-DAVE gets it!

Thank you. One thing I notice alot is the fact that people are always trying to relate one belief with the other. I understand why because for example if dinosaurs are angels then that kills two birds with one stone and there is no arguement. When the basic principle answers best of all. It being that God is the creator of all living creatures, from the smallest bacteriea to the massive tyranosaurus-rex. fiction is fun but when it comes down to the fundamentals of a faith like the Bible is to Christians for insatance and the words of such are what you base your faith on all other things are superficial except for what is in the Bible.

Well, angels aren't dinosaurs lol.

My point exactly. Dinosaurs were nothing more than another animal created by God. Angels are a whole different ball game since they, except for the fallen ones are not on earth. And even still they are not living creatures on earth like man or animal but spirits. If they were materially on earth like us or cats, dogs and the ect. We would see them on a day to day basis in reality and in the flesh.

I don't know much about angels , And i don't know much about Fallen angels or about evil Spirits .

I expect the Spirit world is something we meet daily that some humans have demonic influences and its very comman and they can appear almost normal . Just have some weird ideas , and some weird religions that don't match the bible.

Angels i Guess can take the Form of a Man too and actully come knock on your door and visit you as don't scripture warn if us of this in hebrews 13:2 .

They did this to Lot in Sodom . Came as men .

In Daniel when a angel came to him the Angel had to Fight a powerfull Demon to get to Daniel . the demon actually held him up for a while so he was late getting here .


So i don't know much about Spirtual creatures but i Do know Paul warned Us about Jewish Fables he didn't think much of them . titus 1:14


I guess Satan is A cheribun , And a Cheribun can have 4 faces . A lion , A eagle ,a Ox or a man .

Ive always uspected that its Satans Picture (his man face) that modern christianity carrys around as Jesus .

He really is the God of this World maybe got his picture right over the pulpits of most churches and people looking at him saying we LOVE YOU LORD .

Pretty Slick that old Serpent (hissing Enchanter) He is A master at Decieving !

He doesn't have the face of Jesus, I assure you. I've seen him in an NDE. He's also the Scorpio side of the Cherubim.

Fallen angels aren;t exactly 'evil spirits' angels fall for many different reasons...love even.

Nobody knew what jesus looked like as a man .

His glorified form is described briefly Onece before he became a man in Daniel

Once after he became a Man in Rev .

The Guy in the Picture is Not Jesus !

So why does that picture keep appearing to people ? whos trying to sell that picture?

Jesus showed himself to John and Daniel it was nothing like that picture .