Jules Verne wrote a novel called From the Earth to the Moon, explaining that Earth may have two moons. I went web-surfing, and found this:
In 1846, Frederic Petit, director of the observatory of Toulouse, stated that a second moon of the Earth had been discovered. It had been seen by two observers, Lebon and Dassier, at Toulouse and by a third, Lariviere, at Artenac, during the early evening of March 21 1846. Petit found that the orbit was elliptical, with a period of 2 hours 44 minutes 59 seconds, an apogee at 3570 km above the Earth's surface and perigee at just 11.4 km (!) above the Earth's surface. Le Verrier, who was in the audience, grumbled that one needed to take air resistance into account, something nobody could do at that time. Petit became obsessed with this idea of a second moon, and 15 years later announced that he had made calculations about a small moon of Earth which caused some then-unexplained peculiarities in the motion of our main Moon. Astronomers generally ignored this, and the idea would have been forgotten if not a young French writer, Jules Verne, had not read an abstract. In Verne's novel "From the Earth to the Moon", Verne lets a small object pass close to the traveller's space capsule, causing it to travel around the Moon instead of smashing into it:
"It is", said Barbicane, "a simple meteorite but an enormous one, retained as a satellite by the attraction of the Earth."
"Is that possible?", exclaimed Michel Ardan, "the earth has two moons?"
"Yes, my friend, it has two moons, although it is usually believed to have only one. But this second moon is so small and its velocity is so great that the inhabitants of Earth cannot see it. It was by noticing disturbances that a French astronomer, Monsieur Petit, could determine the existence of this second moon and calculated its orbit. According to him a complete revolution around the Earth takes three hours and twenty minutes. . . . "
"Do all astronomers admit the the existence of this satellite?", asked Nicholl
"No", replied Barbicane, "but if, like us, they had met it they could no longer doubt it. . . . But this gives us a means of determining our position in space . . . its distance is known and we were, therefore, 7480 km above the surface of the globe where we met it."
Jules Verne was read by millions of people, but not until 1942 did anybody notice the discrepancies in Verne's text:
A satellite 7480 km above the Earth's surface would have a period of 4 hours 48 minutes, not 3 hours 20 minutes.
Since it was seen from the window from which the Moon was invisible, while both were approaching, it must be in retrograde motion, which would be worth remarking. Verne doesn't mention this.
In any case the satellite would be in eclipse and thus be invisible. The projectile doesn't leave the Earth's shadow until much later.
Dr. R.S. Richardson, Mount Wilson Observatory, tried in 1952 to make the figures fit by assuming an eccentric orbit of this moon: perigee 5010 km and apogee 7480 km above Earth's surface, eccentricity 0.1784.
Nevertheless, Jules Verne made Petit's second moon known all over the world. Amateur astronomers jumped to the conclusion that here was opportunity for fame -- anybody discovering this second moon would have his name inscribed in the annals of science. No major observatory ever checked the problem of the Earth's second moon, or if they did they kept quiet. German amateurs were chasing what they called Kleinchen ("little bit") -- of course they never found Kleinchen.
W. H. Pickering devoted his attention to the theory of the subject: if the satellite orbited 320 km above the surface and if its diameter was 0.3 meters, with the same reflecting power as the Moon, it should be visible in a 3-inch telescope. A 3 meter satellite would be a unaided-eye object of magnitude 5. Though Pickering did not look for the Petit object, he did carry on a search for a secondary moon -- a satellite of our Moon ("On a photographic search for a satellite of the Moon", Popular Astronomy, 1903). The result was negative and Pickering concluded that any satellite of our Moon must be smaller than about 3 meters.
Pickering's article on the possibility of a tiny second moon of Earth, "A Meteoritic Satellite", appeared in Popular Astronomy in 1922 and caused another short flurry among amateur astronomers, since it contained a virtual request: "A 3-5-inch telescope with a low-power eyepiece would be the likeliest mean to find it. It is an opportunity for the amateur." But again, all searches remained fruitless.
The original idea was that the gravitational field of the second moon should account for the then inexplicable minor deviations of the motion of our big Moon. That meant an object at least several miles large -- but if such a large second moon really existed, it would have been seen by the Babylonians. Even if it was too small to show a disk, its comparative nearness would have made it move fast and therefore be conspicuous, as today's watchers of artificial satellites and even airplanes know. On the other hand, nobody was much interested in moonlets too small to be seen.
If Earth did have a second moon, I think they would have found it by now.
Full Version: Does Earth have a Second Moon?
Unexplained Mysteries Discussion Forums > Unexplained Mysteries > Ancient Mysteries & Alternative History
It seems highly improbable that something so close to the Earth that could cause a measureable effect on the moon wouldn't be large enough to be seen from and have an effect on the Earth. Perhaps soeting of very high density is concievable.
They would of had, scientist wouldnt hide something like this. Would be really exciting for astronomers and the such.
time a go I read on the NASA website, the earth have lot of small moons.
They are small asteroids who are captured by the earth gravitation felt, usually they fly away after few years of orbit. I know there are even a debris from a Saturn rocket....but im not sure.
They are small asteroids who are captured by the earth gravitation felt, usually they fly away after few years of orbit. I know there are even a debris from a Saturn rocket....but im not sure.
*looks up*
naw, just one
although this theory does pique my interest...I'd like to see where this thread leads
naw, just one
although this theory does pique my interest...I'd like to see where this thread leads
you have my attention. As for science not hiding it; a friend in the military once told me "Our government treats it's citizens like mushrooms. They keep us in the dark and feed us ****." If that's the case then it is not impossible that a fact like a second moon would be kept secret from the general public.
someone else would have seen it, photographed it or something. do you know how many people are into astronomy?
On a part of the paper I sometimes read, there is a section called 'Facts' (They write down a couple of interesting or useless facts to know). One of these facts were that the Earth has five moons.
ok, any sort of article on that?
In addition to ephemeral satellites there are two more possibilities. One is that the Moon had a satellite of its own -- but despite several searches none has been found (in addition it's now known that the gravity field of the Moon is uneven or "lumpy" enough for any lunar satellite orbit to be unstable -- any lunar satellite will therefore crash into the Moon after a fairly short time, a few years or possibly a decade). The other possibility is that there might be Trojan satellites, i.e. secondary satellites in the lunar orbit, travelling 60 degrees ahead of or behind the Moon.
Fraid it wasn't article based but I'll try something on the internet for you
the earth may have other "moons" but they are not like the moon
------------
Earth has a second moon, of sorts, and could have many others, according to three astronomers who did calculations to describe orbital motions at gravitational balance points in space that temporarily pull asteroids into bizarre orbits near our planet.
The 3-mile-wide (5-km) satellite, which takes 770 years to complete a horseshoe-shaped orbit around Earth, is called Cruithne and will remain in a suspended state around Earth for at least 5,000 years.
Cruithne, discovered in 1986, and then found in 1997 to have a highly eccentric orbit, cannot be seen by the naked eye, but scientists working at Queen Mary and Westfield College in London were intrigued enough with its peregrinations to come up with mathematical models to describe its path.
That led them to theorize that the model could explain the movement of other objects captured at the gravitational balance points that exist between all planets and the sun.
"We found new dynamical channels through which free asteroids become temporarily moons of Earth and stay there from a few thousand years to several tens of thousands of years," said Fathi Namouni, one of the researchers, now at Princeton University.
"Eventually these same channels provide the moons with escape routes. So the main difference between the moon (weve always known) and the new moons is that the latter are temporary -- they come and go, but they stay for a very long time before they leave."
Astronomers have long known that the solar system is full, relatively speaking, of asteroids.
Most orbit the sun in a belt between Mars and Jupiter, but a handful cross Earth's orbital path -- an imaginary curve through space along which our planet travels around the sun.
Namouni and his colleagues discovered several new types of orbital motion, which showed that some asteroids that cross Earths path may be trapped in orbits caused by the gravitational dance between Earth and the sun.
The work was published in a recent issue of Physical Review Letters.
Strange Lagrange
The finding is based on work by 18th century French mathematician Joseph-Louis Lagrange, whose name is affixed to five points of equilibrium (L1 to L5 in the top diagram) that occur between the gravitational forces of planets, including Earth and the sun.
Lagrange had shown that the forces at the balance points could capture objects and keep them orbiting there (NASA and the European Space Agency have taken advantage of one balance point by launching a sun-observing satellite called SOHO that currently orbits at L1). The orbits of objects at these points are exotic, often tadpole-shaped, but rarely horseshoe-shaped. The horseshoe orbit involves movement around the L3, L4 and L5 points (see diagram at top).
Cruithne takes 770 years to complete its horseshoe orbit. Every 385 years, it comes to its closest point to Earth, some 9.3 million miles (15 million kilometers) away. Its next close approach to Earth comes in 2285.
Namouni and his colleagues latched on to Cruithnes orbit and worked out models built on Lagranges work to explain its eccentric orbit and then theorized that such "co-orbital dynamics" could explain the strange movement of other objects at the Lagrangian points.
Cruithnes orbit is exceedingly strange. "What it does with respect to the Earth is it moves very slowly," said Namounis colleague Apostolos Christou. "At specific points in its orbit, it reverses its rate of motion with respect to Earth so it will appear to go back and forth."
Whats in a moon?
Co-orbital motions probably describe the orbits of many objects at the Lagrange points, Namouni and his colleagues say, but are these objects moons?
A moon typically is defined as an object whose orbit encompasses a planet, say, the Earth, rather than the sun, said Carl Murray, who worked with Namouni and Christou on the research.
But its hard to say what a "true" moon is, he said.
In his view, there are three classes of moons large moons in near-circular orbits around a planet, having formed soon after the planet; smaller fragments that are the products of collisions; and outer, irregular moons in odd orbits, or captured asteroids like Cruithne. In the past year, astronomers have reported finding such objects around Uranus.
So where does our well-known moon fall in this classification, given that scientists think it is the result of a Mars-sized object slamming against our planet soon after it formed?
"Our own moon is in many ways unique and its formation seems like a one-off event," he said. "Our moon is very different in all respects from an object like Cruithne."
There are almost certainly more temporary moons of Earth and of other planets waiting to be discovered, Murray said.
As scientists get better at discovering asteroids, they will find more that have orbits that will keep them close to Earth for a long period of time. But some of those objects are very small.
"At some stage you have to consider the definition of moon," he said. "Is a dust particle orbiting the Earth a moon of the Earth?"
As for Cruithne, Namouni said its not really a "moon" because it moves around the Earth at this time but may not forever. Earth is causing Cruithnes present trajectory, but it could eventually escape.
So its not a moon of Earth, but it might become one.
"We found that Cruithne is likely to use the new dynamical channels to become a real moon of the Earth and remain as such for 3,000 years," Namouni said.
Since there is no definitive count yet of all the asteroids in our solar system, including Earth-crossers, Namouni and his team cannot estimate how many other temporary moons may be orbiting Earth and other planets.
Still, the finding throws into question the current official counts of moons around the planets, since there may be dozens of unknown asteroids circling each planet in temporary or permanent orbits due to gravitational balance points.
For now, Namouni says there should be a new category of moons -- "temporary moons that are captured for a few thousand to several tens of thousands of years."
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/sola...oon_991029.html
------------
Earth has a second moon, of sorts, and could have many others, according to three astronomers who did calculations to describe orbital motions at gravitational balance points in space that temporarily pull asteroids into bizarre orbits near our planet.
The 3-mile-wide (5-km) satellite, which takes 770 years to complete a horseshoe-shaped orbit around Earth, is called Cruithne and will remain in a suspended state around Earth for at least 5,000 years.
Cruithne, discovered in 1986, and then found in 1997 to have a highly eccentric orbit, cannot be seen by the naked eye, but scientists working at Queen Mary and Westfield College in London were intrigued enough with its peregrinations to come up with mathematical models to describe its path.
That led them to theorize that the model could explain the movement of other objects captured at the gravitational balance points that exist between all planets and the sun.
"We found new dynamical channels through which free asteroids become temporarily moons of Earth and stay there from a few thousand years to several tens of thousands of years," said Fathi Namouni, one of the researchers, now at Princeton University.
"Eventually these same channels provide the moons with escape routes. So the main difference between the moon (weve always known) and the new moons is that the latter are temporary -- they come and go, but they stay for a very long time before they leave."
Astronomers have long known that the solar system is full, relatively speaking, of asteroids.
Most orbit the sun in a belt between Mars and Jupiter, but a handful cross Earth's orbital path -- an imaginary curve through space along which our planet travels around the sun.
Namouni and his colleagues discovered several new types of orbital motion, which showed that some asteroids that cross Earths path may be trapped in orbits caused by the gravitational dance between Earth and the sun.
The work was published in a recent issue of Physical Review Letters.
Strange Lagrange
The finding is based on work by 18th century French mathematician Joseph-Louis Lagrange, whose name is affixed to five points of equilibrium (L1 to L5 in the top diagram) that occur between the gravitational forces of planets, including Earth and the sun.
Lagrange had shown that the forces at the balance points could capture objects and keep them orbiting there (NASA and the European Space Agency have taken advantage of one balance point by launching a sun-observing satellite called SOHO that currently orbits at L1). The orbits of objects at these points are exotic, often tadpole-shaped, but rarely horseshoe-shaped. The horseshoe orbit involves movement around the L3, L4 and L5 points (see diagram at top).
Cruithne takes 770 years to complete its horseshoe orbit. Every 385 years, it comes to its closest point to Earth, some 9.3 million miles (15 million kilometers) away. Its next close approach to Earth comes in 2285.
Namouni and his colleagues latched on to Cruithnes orbit and worked out models built on Lagranges work to explain its eccentric orbit and then theorized that such "co-orbital dynamics" could explain the strange movement of other objects at the Lagrangian points.
Cruithnes orbit is exceedingly strange. "What it does with respect to the Earth is it moves very slowly," said Namounis colleague Apostolos Christou. "At specific points in its orbit, it reverses its rate of motion with respect to Earth so it will appear to go back and forth."
Whats in a moon?
Co-orbital motions probably describe the orbits of many objects at the Lagrange points, Namouni and his colleagues say, but are these objects moons?
A moon typically is defined as an object whose orbit encompasses a planet, say, the Earth, rather than the sun, said Carl Murray, who worked with Namouni and Christou on the research.
But its hard to say what a "true" moon is, he said.
In his view, there are three classes of moons large moons in near-circular orbits around a planet, having formed soon after the planet; smaller fragments that are the products of collisions; and outer, irregular moons in odd orbits, or captured asteroids like Cruithne. In the past year, astronomers have reported finding such objects around Uranus.
So where does our well-known moon fall in this classification, given that scientists think it is the result of a Mars-sized object slamming against our planet soon after it formed?
"Our own moon is in many ways unique and its formation seems like a one-off event," he said. "Our moon is very different in all respects from an object like Cruithne."
There are almost certainly more temporary moons of Earth and of other planets waiting to be discovered, Murray said.
As scientists get better at discovering asteroids, they will find more that have orbits that will keep them close to Earth for a long period of time. But some of those objects are very small.
"At some stage you have to consider the definition of moon," he said. "Is a dust particle orbiting the Earth a moon of the Earth?"
As for Cruithne, Namouni said its not really a "moon" because it moves around the Earth at this time but may not forever. Earth is causing Cruithnes present trajectory, but it could eventually escape.
So its not a moon of Earth, but it might become one.
"We found that Cruithne is likely to use the new dynamical channels to become a real moon of the Earth and remain as such for 3,000 years," Namouni said.
Since there is no definitive count yet of all the asteroids in our solar system, including Earth-crossers, Namouni and his team cannot estimate how many other temporary moons may be orbiting Earth and other planets.
Still, the finding throws into question the current official counts of moons around the planets, since there may be dozens of unknown asteroids circling each planet in temporary or permanent orbits due to gravitational balance points.
For now, Namouni says there should be a new category of moons -- "temporary moons that are captured for a few thousand to several tens of thousands of years."
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/sola...oon_991029.html
So does this mean I (what it said in the paper) was half right? Or at least right in a different form? That was too scientific for me too fully comprehend.
kinda, they call them moons, but they really aren't
That's good. I'm not too strong on astrology but always fascinated by the moon so it's good to have things cleared up like that. 
I read somewhere that we do have a second moon. It's called "Lilith" or something like that. And it's actually an ateroid. So it's not like the famous "Moon" we see every now & then.
QUOTE(RedFFWolf @ Feb 5 2007, 04:17 PM) [snapback]1530830[/snapback]
That's good. I'm not too strong on astrology but always fascinated by the moon so it's good to have things cleared up like that.
ASTRONOMY
astrology and astronomy are not one in the same, lol
Yeah, there has to be many little moons around the earth. I don't consider it a moon unless it is pretty big
QUOTE(durbadurba @ Feb 6 2007, 04:09 PM) [snapback]1531747[/snapback]
Yeah, there has to be many little moons around the earth. I don't consider it a moon unless it is pretty big
If there has to be lots of small moons and you think a moon has to be pretty big why can't we see them?
when the tiemeant inpacked happen to the earth some was left behind ,i would look at the precambreain rocks that are on earth and greenland as a whole for that matter.
fyi about Lilith -
Lilith is a hypothetical natural satellite of Earth. It is named for the Lilith of near-eastern mythology who was first wife to Adam. Lilith is also sometimes referred to as the "Dark Moon" or "Black Moon," though the term Black Moon is usually used by astrologers who do not believe in Lilith's physical existence to refer to the moon's empty apogee. Some who do believe in a true second moon use both in their calculations. The main belt asteroid 1181 Lilith is also sometimes used in these figures.
However, fewer people know that an asteroid discovered in 1986 is locked in a complex but stable orbit around Earth, making it technically a second moon. The asteroid was named Cruithne (pronounced croo-EEN-ya) and has a a 1::1 resonance with Earth. It takes a year to go around the sun. It is co-orbital with the Earth (meaning it shares the Earth's orbit), but more importantly, it co-rotates with the Earth. This gives it what is known as a "horseshoe" orbit; as the Earth moves, the satellite travels around the Earth, then turns and travels back as if it were following the edges of a gigantic circular horseshoe hovering around the planet. Previous to Cruithne's discovery, such orbits were only theoretical. Cruithne was named after the first Celtic tribe to populate the British Isles -- this tribe is more commonly known as the Picts.
Lilith is a hypothetical natural satellite of Earth. It is named for the Lilith of near-eastern mythology who was first wife to Adam. Lilith is also sometimes referred to as the "Dark Moon" or "Black Moon," though the term Black Moon is usually used by astrologers who do not believe in Lilith's physical existence to refer to the moon's empty apogee. Some who do believe in a true second moon use both in their calculations. The main belt asteroid 1181 Lilith is also sometimes used in these figures.
However, fewer people know that an asteroid discovered in 1986 is locked in a complex but stable orbit around Earth, making it technically a second moon. The asteroid was named Cruithne (pronounced croo-EEN-ya) and has a a 1::1 resonance with Earth. It takes a year to go around the sun. It is co-orbital with the Earth (meaning it shares the Earth's orbit), but more importantly, it co-rotates with the Earth. This gives it what is known as a "horseshoe" orbit; as the Earth moves, the satellite travels around the Earth, then turns and travels back as if it were following the edges of a gigantic circular horseshoe hovering around the planet. Previous to Cruithne's discovery, such orbits were only theoretical. Cruithne was named after the first Celtic tribe to populate the British Isles -- this tribe is more commonly known as the Picts.
Do you have a source on that Lt Ripley?
I learn something new everyday!!! Even though we can't see them, it is neat to know they are there. Maybe not REALLY moons but close enough for me to keep this little fun fact in my head
I think someone may have posted this link but just in case here it is:
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/sola...oon_991029.html
I think someone may have posted this link but just in case here it is:
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/sola...oon_991029.html
QUOTE(AtlantisRises @ Feb 6 2007, 11:17 PM) [snapback]1532728[/snapback]
Do you have a source on that Lt Ripley?
here ya go -
http://www.lilitu.com/lilith/
http://www.astro.com/astrology/in_lilith_e.htm
depending who is asked lilith , ex wife of Adam, is seen as an evil spirit or a herione. she didn't want to be subservient to Adam and was there for cast out by god. of course a hebrew myth because jewish women run thier house holds. lol.
and
http://www.astro.uwo.ca/~wiegert/3753/3753.html
The near-Earth asteroid 3753 Cruithne is now known to be a companion, and an unusual one, of the Earth. This asteroid shares the Earth's orbit, its motion "choreographed" in such a way as to remain stable and avoid colliding with our planet. This relationship was revealed in a paper by Paul Wiegert, Kim Innanen and Seppo Mikkola, and published in the British-based science journal Nature on June 12, 1997.
There is now one more near-Earth asteroid known to be in a resonant states similar to that of Cruithne, asteroid 2002 AA29. There are also at least three others
Thanks Ripley.
Always like a new site for looking up Astronomy stuff. Purely as a hobby of course
Always like a new site for looking up Astronomy stuff. Purely as a hobby of course
QUOTE(Lt_Ripley @ Feb 6 2007, 02:35 PM) [snapback]1532142[/snapback]
However, fewer people know that an asteroid discovered in 1986 is locked in a complex but stable orbit around Earth, making it technically a second moon. The asteroid was named Cruithne (pronounced croo-EEN-ya) and has a a 1::1 resonance with Earth. It takes a year to go around the sun...
Ripley,
Any object in any orbit around the Earth will take one year to go around the Sun.
Harte
"That's no moon. It's a space station."-Obi-Wan Kenobi.
QUOTE(BlueMoods @ Feb 5 2007, 08:34 PM) [snapback]1530774[/snapback]
it is not impossible that a fact like a second moon would be kept secret from the general public.
But WHY???
So we don't have to worry about another one.
Actually that was a guess, Emma. ^^;;
Actually that was a guess, Emma. ^^;;
QUOTE(MoonPrincess @ Feb 8 2007, 01:54 PM) [snapback]1534674[/snapback]
So we don't have to worry about another one.
Actually that was a guess, Emma. ^^;;
Actually that was a guess, Emma. ^^;;
Because a second moon would cause international panic of course.
I'm pretty sure if we lived in a world where we had always known that we had two moons, there would be a post on here titled 'Does Earth have Three Moons?'.
No matter what you have, the conspiracy heads will take it a step further.
Ok. Like I said I was guessing. ^^
And like I was trying to say, if something is covered up, there has to be a reason for it, and in this instance there simply isn't.
two moons hmmm interesting if both on the opposite of the earth would there be any mornings?
QUOTE(mouse888 @ Feb 9 2007, 12:01 AM) [snapback]1535639[/snapback]
two moons hmmm interesting if both on the opposite of the earth would there be any mornings?
Are you serious? The moon doesn't determine night...
There were newspaper reports way back in 1953 that Earth might indeed have a "Second Moon."
Sir Winston S. Churchill was on one of his visits to the United States at that time and one evening the subject of this "Second Moon" came up during after-dinner conversation.
Sir Winston's observation: "I want to go further away than that when I die."
Sir Winston S. Churchill was on one of his visits to the United States at that time and one evening the subject of this "Second Moon" came up during after-dinner conversation.
Sir Winston's observation: "I want to go further away than that when I die."
No, just please no..........
QUOTE(BlueMoods @ Feb 5 2007, 04:34 PM) [snapback]1530774[/snapback]
As for science not hiding it; a friend in the military once told me "Our government treats it's citizens like mushrooms. They keep us in the dark and feed us ****."
Brilliant analogy.
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