Now kindly.. please point out where I blamed anyone.

well, thats a difficult question. Some aspects of the Bibble i dont agree with. I beleive in God and i think everything evolves around doing good, thats why we have reason and a consciense (spelling i apologise), to decide what is good and what is bad, and to feel what is good and what is bad. Thats enough for me to live a good life. I respect the Bibble, but i don't really beleive in it, cause over this time it surely has been edited or misunderstood, or also been changed by the same church, -- i dont belive in the church. Unfortunatley I see alot of hypocritism. I believe in God and i want to live a good life, and thats enough for me..


"This is my simple religion. There is no need for temples; no need for complicated philosophy. Our own brain, our own heart is our temple; the philosophy is kindness."

I think you're making more out of the act of submission that what it is. We all submit to someone during out lives. If you are employed by someone you submit to them, if you are self-employed you submit to the needs/whims of your customers, if you're part of a team you submit to the leader of the team. It is this last type of submission that is what submission in marriage is supposed to be most like. My wife is an extremely intelligent and capable woman, and she is in no way less than me, and her submission is not in any way subservience, and we discuss issues before making decisions, I'm just the one designated to make a decision when simply discussing and studying an issue doesn't reveal which action is best and a decision between the greater of two goods or the lesser of two evils has to be made.


What are you talking about? Why do you do this? What you are talking about may be interesting, but it has nothing to do with the post you are supposedly responding to. Yes, I know you have every right to respond to any post on any thread and I am not in any way telling you not to, but why do you quote someone else's post, and then go off on a tangent that has nothing to do with the post?

Please, please, please, please read the post you quoted. Do you see anywhere in that post anything about innocent kids being raped and molested by priests?

Interesting, so because they were sinners, they deserved to die? What happened to free will? What happened to a merciful all loving being? What happened to being an all knowing and all powerful being having to resort to violence to get his way? What happened to the idea of converting people without fear from more terrorism?

According to the ancient scribblings, I'm a sinner and an awful one at it. I've done many things against the religion and I openly mock god. STRIKE ME DOWN OH MIGHTY SMITER!

...

Wait for it...

...

Wait for it...

...

Wait for it...

I guess god is 1. doesn't exist now - 2. he's feeling a tad lazy today - 3. Your god fears me.

God killed a lot of innocent people and things. The Tenth plague alone killed all the first born sons...which can consist of innocent children and babies. The Great Flood killed innocent animals and plant life...not to mention the children and babies. Its also highly unlikely that Noah and his crew where the only good people left on Earth. Sodom and Gohmorah was a place full of rapists right? Its highly likely again that there are a bunch of kids and babies there too. When God parted the Red Sea he drowned soldiers...who where only doing their job.

God isn't all good...I have met better people then God.

Here are some excellent quotes (I think) that express my beliefs in the bible much more eloquently than I ever could:

The belief that one's faith is the only true religion too often leads to a disturbing level of intolerance, and this intolerance includes the assumption that nonbelievers cannot be as moral as believers.

--Michael Shermer (The Science of Good and Evil)

The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, January 24, 1814

Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him [Jesus] by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others again of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism, and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Short, April 13, 1820

And here are some quotes from the bible that further support my beliefs that the bible is mostly a big dunghill with only a few diamonds in it (see Jefferson quote above):

Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

-Psalm 137:9 (KJV)


Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

-Paul [I Corinthians 14:34-35]

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

-The alleged Jesus in Luke 19:27

Also, it seems that if you truly are Christian, and that if the very last verse of the New Testament is true ("whoever taketh away or addeth" yaddah yaddah), why are there women on this forum, why are there Christian women who teach (women are not to be teachers of men) etc. etc. ? Can you really live as the bible teaches? And if you can't, can you call yourself a Christian according to the "truth" that is the bible? I call that hypocrisy..If you can't walk the walk or talk the talk.

And why is it that many Christians (and I have been on the receiving end of this many times), try so hard to convert you and show you the way when it says right there in the bible that your name is either in the book of life or it isn't....that it was written long ago by god in all his alpha omegishness and that your salvation is pre-determined.

Or maybe... you're just not that important.

So only 'important' people get murdered in cold blood by the terrorist god?

The object of terrorism is to induce fear into a population to also get their goals that go further then just fear but their ideals being pushed out. In this case it's a religion that is based on "love". Kind of like those African "freedom fighters" or "noble causes" when warlords go through the lands and slaughter/rape as they please. Also like these fighters for the worthy and undeniable Allah in Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran, Saudi Arabia and more Islamic cells that give themselves titles that they don't deserve but they think it helps with their image.

Sadly for all of humanity, love is only a front in the christian religion. That's why the bible can't be believed in by me.

Nope I do not believe it. Even though I have not read the Bible, I am a strong atheist. Also, from what I've heard, the Bible is extremely contradictory, and discriminatory. For example: The Bible finds homosexuality a sin. Thats absurd, because if God is real, then God created homosexuals; it doesn't make sense. As well, I believe that mankind, terrified of the thought of life being a huge labyrinth of obstacles and at the end there is nothing but death, they created God to put ease amongst themselves.

Or maybe... He loves you so much that He is patient and forgiving.

Well we are supposidly created with free will, so even though God created homosexuals, he also created muderers, liars, and rapists. However, I do not believe that being a homosexual is always a "choice" and that you are more than likely born that way, so you do have a good point!





But, why?

When I get married, my husband is not going to the "leader of the team" just because he is a man. In relationships, there is never really such thing as a completely equal relationship because usually one partner is just a bit more dominant than the other. This, however, does not always have to be a male.

Son, as a whole it fits the flow, son i know you prefer things broken down for you, connect he dots , but it won't happen with me and I would not be offended by you passing over my posts as they seem to deep for you.... son i intend to post as i see fit, in tune with my creative flow, ...... ..... Thanks for caring enough to share your opinion but it is is personal and personal BF's are to be handled in a PM...

It is just a book, taken way too seriously at times by believers and nonbelievers alike. It can be and has been a useful tool spiritually for many, but it holds no real power. It contains only words... inspiring to whomever finds them inspirational. It is the human that gives meaning to the words and who draws strength from them. Whether any of the bible is factual or not, shouldn't really matter that much (although I know religion has put stake in its factuality; most of the 'backbone' stories cannot be proven anyway), what matters is what you believe is real and helpful. A few fictional books have changed my life, made me think and inspired me... the bible being one of them. I cannot sit here and try to convince someone that what they believe to be factual is really fictional, as much as they cannot convince me of what I believe to be fictional is really factual. That must be decided within oneself. It comes down to personal faith.

Osama Bin Laden would love me to if I converted but that isn't going to happen.

Still even yet god is a terrorist at the end of the day even if he does want to single me out. He's killed millions, why would I care that something like that loves me?

Because if you don't, you're next!

You keep hoping around in circles. All sinners deserve death, but if you read the context you would understand that these people were planning genocide on Israel.

Your presupposition has already ruled it out, therefore your closed mind can not see omnibenevolence.

According to these “ancient scribbles” we all are.

What do you know, we actually have something in common.

I said the same thing too.


Besides this being a non-sequitur your use of logic is poor. I might as well deny the existence of Richard Dawkins because 1. He hasn't shown himself to me. 2. His books can be explained scientifically.
3. No one has ever met him.

Michael Shermer? I mean I can not take this man serious after seeing him on Penn and Teller’s show. His use of logic is horrible, his facts are misleading and misrepresented and this quote reveals his complete ignorance in anything relating to theology or philosophy. He does however seem to have an impact on the choir.

I don't know much about Michael Shermer is (perhaps I am out of the loop ) but that quote seems to ring true from what I have seen from many christians. (notice I said not all christians)

I've noticed this from quite a bit of other religions as well.

As a Christian I believe atheists can be moral. I would even say some are better moral stewards than some Christians. I have never argued otherwise nor seen others say anything different. But like philosophers I believe that atheists do not have a logical foundation for such a belief. There is a big difference between the two.

I've been on a few sides of the fence. I was raised by Atheist parents and was an Atheist myself. I eventually became a Christian (the kind that believes that everything in the bible is 100% true-no questions asked) and currently, I am comfortably agnostic.

I can see where a lot of Atheist would get that idea about so many christians being intolerant with them picketing against homosexuals and force feeding hell down their throats.

I'm glad to see that you believe atheist can be just as moral, or even more moral than some christians.

I, myself, don't like religious fundamentalists just as much as I don't like militant Athiests. Both parties are almost just as bad with their constant battling. Of course, fundies and angry atheists get the most attention so it's not hard to see where each party gets such negative views about each other.

Nature is not a conscious being. It's more that the hand fell from nature's deck onto the table. I can see nature, I know it exists and the evidence is obvious. A dark scary night is only made worse when you start imagining up creatures lurking in the shadows.

And I don't reject the possibility of conscious creation.. I doubt it, but I know it
s a possibility. but I AM 99.9999..% sure that the author of the Bible has no more knowledge of said potential creation than myself, and I think believing what the Bible is saying is an attempt to get rid of the unexplained, or that one tall shadow that your mind keeps painting creatures with evil grins on their faces into.

What I know is that nobody knows how things came to be. And until we can be reasonably sure (with evidence to support us), nobody should act like they know. Humans know nothing. We are petty, weak creatures in such a vast reality. Our lives can't even approach a drop in the ocean. And somewhere out there, there's other civilizations creating gods to explain why their world is so fit for them to live in. With how big the universe is, I would be not surprised at all if something out there was in a different galaxy, creating a message on a public bulletin board maintained with electronic devices, talking about the existance of that planet's dominant god. A trillion is a big number. It's so big that it just goes over your head. You can't make one trillion a personal number, because you've never seen anything that can measure up. There are somewhere near a trillion stars in many galaxies, each likely with planets orbiting them, and likely trillions of galaxies out there. That is too big to understand, but what it means to me, is that God is not a speculation which is unique to humans at all. I think the Bible belittles the complexity and enormity of our universe.. it's an insult to all the beauty out there that no human can ever dream of shadowing.



Morality is not achieved from Christianity. There is a reason Christians don't want to be represented by old testament verses in the Bible (which whether they apply or not in modern times, represent the opinions and desires of the Christian God.) They will even deny something which their God says is the correct thing to do. Why? Because they have an underlying ethical code, a human code. Nobody can say that their God created it, because their God would not create a moral standard that would cause his own people to go against his wishes. That is what morality and ethics stem from.. Religion has nothing to do with it.

Huh? Wha?? What does priests raping children have to do with Lot's daughters?? ABSOULTELY NOTHING! If you are asking me if a priest that rapes a child is to held accountable for his deeds, YES they should be held accountable. If a person tortures a pet should they be held accountable...YES.

However what you have stated above has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with what Lot's daughters, NOR is the blame to be put on The Father for their wrongful actions!

I was making a statement, not accusing you of saying that you blamed anyone.

Is this not a general discussion or am I to assume that everyone will take statements personally?

why should Lot's daughters be blamed for anything?

After all, wasn't their own father who offered them to the crowd to "to with as the mob pleased"? to be used and abused rather than risk the "angels" of god? One would think that 2 angels would have been able to protect themselves, no?

And, if their god hadn't decimated the cities, causing them to believe they were the last survivors on earth, they wouldn't have felt the need to seduce their own father.

Why did they think they were the last people? Didnt they know there were other cities?

apparantly not Ryo. If you read the text, they decided to mate with their father and continue their lineage, because they believed that there were no men left.

It most certainly has to do with the flow, i purposely used a illustration with the intent to draw awareness to a horrendous teaching....IMO lots father is responsible for his daughters.....

8. Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.

this is the guidng principle of the father ( i would seriously question this mans ability to make decisons,let alone be around women) and yes he is acountable for his daughters, he tells these angry men do what ever you want to them just don't kill em basically...IMO this is sexualizing his girls that anything goes sexually, no limits, no respect for themselves or others and how did they get this way the father says they know nothing ( read the scipture) basically( clean slates), hello this screams the "FATHER" and why are you surprised at what comes next.. are you kidding me ...the father bascially said his girls are worthless and to be treated as the men see fit we can only imagine the horrors...under these circumstances and if these had of been boys there is fertile ground paved for sexual predators....


....

If one is reading the Scriptures CORRECTLY, then one would soon understand that it basically about OBEDIENCE. Will you or will you not obey your Creator. You have *FREEWILL*

Lot offered his daughters in exchange for the Messangers, simply because he understood what the MALE residents were asking of the "strangers" was a sin. To avoid the situation he offered his daughters. Did the Father tell him to do that? No. Did the Messangers tell him to do that? No. It wasn't neccesary. S&G had already been doomed to destruction for their sinful behavior.

Why would the Messangers need Lot to protect them indeed?

Lot took it upon himself to make the offer, of course if one has read the complete story, starting with the visit to Abraham and the discussion that he had with the 1 of the 3 visitors, one would have a more complete picture.

Again, it is all about Obedience will you believe or will you not. If one chooses to put the blame on the Father that one does not KNOW how the Father thinks, how the Father works.

When it comes to Scripture Our Humble Opinions simply don't count. The Father doesn't think like us, His ways are not our ways...

The begining topic of this discussion was, do I believe in the Scriptures and why...Yes I believe, and I understand and stand under every single word that was written. For this obedience, I will find a place in My Father Heavenly Kingdom.

good for you. I hope that when your time comes, your expectations are fulfilled.


In the meanwhile though, let me state : "Your ways are not my ways".

come on i came savvy to the converstaton, Correctly as in how you are told it should mean, tahnkyou I can read for myself and decide for myself and have.... this is absurd to explain away or jsutify a very monsterous father who put his daughters in rapists arms and blamed them for it. exploited thier innocence ...... .Only in the minds of men could we find such absurdity..if this is your diety and this works for you as joey says that is your perogative, but i donot condone or pretend that rape isn't rape.......incidently there is no free will in choice, these women had no choice and certainly weren't asked, nor would of been.... by default you are defining slavery and that is the christian idea on the female she is less than, her oppinioin meant nothing.nor did she have one..............i can't fathom that Lot couldn't of come up with a better solution ( after all this was their father good grief) than sending his daughters to be raped and mauled.....There is nothing in this behavior that is divine like, or worthy of being called divine....do you also think a woman is at fault for geting raped too????

Do you have daughters come at it from that persepctive....Are you a woman imagine if it was you... Gosh .....Instead of hihg fiving and calling this man a saint.... this concerns me...

Well answered, Glows4ever, thanks for your insight.

Supra, why all the hate? Why attack someone's beliefs like this? She was talking about something different and it seems almost as if you were just looking for some way to insert your hatred of Christianity into the conversation... why?

No. I don't even believe in the Encyclopedia. Take nothing on faith.

~~Cebrakon

nope. everything about it seems implausible and contrived

Hatred, hmmm I think this applys to you far more than me, i have no doctrine that I follow that advocates hatred in any way, its unnatural to hate..... Its called disagreement and since i don't agree and offer a persepctive its considered hatred, we have been over this a few times and again i share I disagree tthats debate... .....Son to question and challenge that a biblical story about a father that is putting his daughters in harms way is not hatred....Hon i have to giggle its not possible to live the life i live and be hateful...Now, not to say i couldn't ever be hateful i choose not tobe with intention i donot see it as a useful tool at all thus i donot use it..... Now anger may apply to me on ocassion the kind of anger that is used to be a benefit that leads to healing, to a compromise.... never to harm....its healhty to have an opinion and mine isn't popular and isn't liekly to be I am kool with that.... , ....Why is it that you have issue and insist that your right to diefy a man is okay but my counter of disagreement is hatred and nothing but hatred HMMM interesting..... Well it is okay and healthy to disagree and its a good thing throughout humanity their are those that are comfortable doing that...MLK, Rosa Parks, Buddha , Krishna, Nicole Simpson's family Ron Goldmans Family, Amber's family of the Amber alert Law....Muhammad Ali., Maya Angelou, Richard Dawkins, Einstien.......Copernicus...Isabella d'Este etc.....

Ima have to side with Sheri on this one. Lot gave away his daughters to people who would rape them...how is that not wrong? Lot should have bin turned into salt.

Supra, there is questioning something and deriding it. You are doing more than questioning. There are others here on UM who question and yet do not deride. I agree with you, hatred is unnatural, and as I have told you before until you're mature enough to admit to yourself that you hate Christianity you will be stuck and will not grow. So, it's up to you, admit what is so clear to so many here, even those who you consider your friends, you hate Christianity, you blame Christianity for what your parents did to you when you were young, and then we can move on.

Free will does that. God is so mighty and all powerful, he couldn't talk using his godly words to them to stop violence. Instead as you say he slaughtered the attackers. For no reason because he's all powerful and almighty... An act of terrorism on humanity.

Interesting. So what happened to all loving and merciful?



Indeed. I'm sure all those little babies, children, mentally retarded and more people are all thankful for god as they now sit in hell.

Still no reason to kill them. He's all powerful and all knowing, surely he knows a way to find peace and love... Nope... He slaughtered and commanded horrific events against humanity.



You could say that about anybody. Though god you'd think would give evidence for the bible more then the 'word'.

Son, this week its me last week it was Hyper, then it was BNW then KBA and back to me again LOL i am very clear on who i am *smiles* i don't know who you are talking about and i hope its not anyone on here but i can tell you its not me, maybe this has more to do with you, just a thought, disagree scream hate...........son , again it isn't natural to hate anyone or anything, i don't do things that are unnatural .....Nothing personal, ( I see no insult becasue i do not intend insult in my posts ) but your profiling skills are not working as far as I'm concerned..*giggles* I'm not shy either if you want to know me ask me i will tell you ... i am a strong women who is very vocal and i can appreciate this would be intimidating to you, maybe you aren't acustomed to being questioned or challenged by a female or you just don't know me and in that ignorance misunderstand me, Son i just don't agree with christainity as a great value and moral guide, opinions are like assholes everyones got one and who cares....maybe you are taking this too serious or something....I think these sorts of BF's are supposed to be in a PM....

I'll compile a short list of strictly biblical reasons to be upset with Christianity. Bear with me here.

Murder and support of murder (Includes proof Jesus lived by the OT laws and supported them):
Leviticus 20:13
Deut 21:18-21
Exodus 35:2
Exodus 31:14
Matthew 15:4
Mark 7:10
Leviticus 20:14
Leviticus 21:9
Joshua 7:15, 24-25
Numbers 11:
Acts 3:23

Hebrews 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses

( Yeah, that means pretty much every Christian and other person on the world today is wanted dead by God).

This is only the beginning of the rabbit hole. I've posted plenty of new testament verses also, for those that deny the OT still shows the nature of their God whether it applies or not. I could post more, but what's the point? If you can look at all those scriptures and still defend the Bible, you are brainwashed anyway, I don't know what kind of person can go ahead and justify all that murder and hate and still feel good about themselves tomorrow. If anyone believes that all those scriptures along with many many others like them are somehow being misinterpreted, please explain. (And please, I'm not trying to disrespect people here, but is it fair to expect that I should stay completely calm over the wide acceptance of such a hateful doctrine? Nobody complains when peopl criticize Hitler or the KKK, or even murderers deserving the death penalty. I am criticizing the Bible because of its contents, and it SHOULD be under more public scrutiny. Just because Christians want to deny the message it is clearly sending, doesn't make it a non-malevolent teaching.

The story of Lot offering his 2 virgin daughters to the mob is meant to show that, to be considered truly worthy, one should be prepared to sacrifice anything and everything for your belief in God. In this case however, the act of sacrifice was uncalled for by God or God's messengers. While this can be interpreted as showing the sacrifice was unnecessary I believe it is meant to show that one should not wait for God's command for the sacrifice, but offer what you have as that is what is EXPECTED.

Lot had to leave his married daughters behind in Sodom. Why is it a sin, then, for Lot's wife to look back in pained reflection at the place where some of her children are being slaughtered? To say she was struck dead for this act of 'disobedience' is ridiculous. A merciful God you say?

I don't think anyone is saying it was right. Glows4Ever brought up a good point that is often overlooked by many people - nowhere is a moral comment ever made on this situation. God didn't tell Lot to offer his daughters, God didn't initiate it. There is no indication that God supported this. Just because it is documented in the Bible does not mean God supported it (the Bible shows us our bad side just as it shows our good side).

The point is when God makes a promise he keeps it. His promise is everlasting life in Heaven. The point is it doesnot matter what happens to you or loved ones on earth. Greater gifts and joy awaits in Heaven. Problem is that people cling to this world and material things way to much. Lot's daughters did not die in the city by the way. And God did warn them not to look back on the city because of what would happen. Unmerciful beings do not give warnings. Unmerciful beings do not send angels to warn you of what will occure. Lot's wife looked back because of her worldly attachment to the city not because her daughters were in their even though she was warned not to and told the concequenses, she looked back anyway. Much like people today cling to their worldly possesions on their death bed. What will money do for you in death? What will cars or T.Vs or clothes do for you in death? Can you take such things with you? No. All you can take is your soul which is you. Death is rebirth into the spirit world be it heaven or hell or valhalla. You are naked before the judge just like at birth. If the daughters died in the city who laid with Lot in the mountains? As far as I remember it was his daughters.

I've just looked at all those verses. i could refute them all, but it would take us off topic. So I'll just generalize my answers for now, and remind us that according to the Bible, we have all sinned and therefore are all under the punishment of death. I guess it depends on your pov, but you could look at it as "why is god so judgemental to kill these people", or you could take it from another pov - "why is God so merciful that he has saved some, though we do not deserve it". It's not so much a matter of "explaining away" what God has said, because we are all just as much under judgement, though people don't like to be told this.

Though on a side note, you say you included New Testament quotes to show that it's not just the Old Testament, but every single NT quote is also quoting the Old Testament. I'm not saying that the OT is irrelevant - I probably more than most Christians do not see it so, but you could have just as easily quoted the OT passages instead of the NT.

Regards, PA

I've just looked at all those verses. i could refute them all, but it would take us off topic. So I'll just generalize my answers for now, and remind us that according to the Bible, we have all sinned and therefore are all under the punishment of death. I guess it depends on your pov, but you could look at it as "why is god so judgemental to kill these people", or you could take it from another pov - "why is God so merciful that he has saved some, though we do not deserve it". It's not so much a matter of "explaining away" what God has said, because we are all just as much under judgement, though people don't like to be told this.

Well, please do refute them all, or at least some of them, such as the NT ones in agreement with the OT. And to say everyone instantly deserves death for their sins is ludicrous to me. The only sin deserving death is something in the realm of murder. In your view, what did God bring me into this world for? He would know that I have and will exist as an atheist, arguing his word, and putting it in a negative light. And he would ALSO know, that in creating me, he would be sentencing me to death and hell before I have even been alive to commit a sin. Nobody asks you.. "do you want to be born? You will die and go to hell when you are older." You're just born. But God still chooses to create people who he will personally be killing for no good reason? What causes this belief that all humans are sinners and therefore deserve to be killed? If you ask me, that only agrees with the Bible verses.

And I wonder, what causes God to care so much? Let's look at his position... timeless, all-knowing, forgiving (or so they say), etc. So tell me, WHY is he so darn angry? Are petty humans really so able to anger a God that he would just start plucking them off the earth? That doesn't make any sense. The only reason a God or Godlike being ever kills humans is for fun or out of boredom. Why? Because compared to a God, a human's thoughts and opinions would be so amazingly insignificant that he would have no reason to judge them for thinking them. Anyway, this is Christianity in a nutshell to me....

God makes beings that are sinners and imperfect by nature. He then punishes them for being sinners and imperfect, which is how he made them in the first place. In the end, he takes a few up to his big temple to eternally chant to him about how good he is and sends the less-gullible and those who were wrongly persuaded into another religion to spend their eternal days in the fires of hell, so badly wanting to die but never being able to.

Though on a side note, you say you included New Testament quotes to show that it's not just the Old Testament, but every single NT quote is also quoting the Old Testament. I'm not saying that the OT is irrelevant - I probably more than most Christians do not see it so, but you could have just as easily quoted the OT passages instead of the NT.

And there's a reason. Because whenever I try to mention the OT passages, nobody will admit that they're wrong. All I hear is "It's the OT not the new it doesn't matter anymore.. Jesus destroyed them!" So then I show them matthew 5:17-20... "But Jesus FULFILLED the law!!! That means it doesn't exist anymore and we don't have to follow it! God suddenly changed his mind and didn't care if all the Christians were wicked too! And Jesus switches to talking about the COMMANDMENTS when he says that not a stroke of the pen should change!"

Well...

The verses I give further validate that the authors of the Bible wrote the mosaic law with intent that it always be put into practice. When you have JESUS, the poster child of Christianity saying in the new testament in multiple places that certain people should die for not obeying the law. I don't know how much further you can really deny it, other than by saying humans DESERVE it.

ND-DAVE,

Lot's 2 virgin daughters did indeed lay with him after the destruction of the cities. He also had other daughters who had married. These daughters were left behind in the cities although there is no statement indicating they were wicked, just that God's messengers hurried Lot to abandon Sodom. In their haste they left behind the other daughters.

If God doesn't care who gets smited (smote?) when he decides to have a smiting fit why does he 'save' various people? If they would be better off in heaven then it shouldn't matter if they are saved or not. The fact they are saved would indicate God wants the innocent to live a life here on Earth so God should really take the trouble to save ALL innocents when God decides to lose his temper.

Oh how I LOVE the day I stumbled across this site! LOL!

i think the bible is a huge lie. . . my personally opinion. it was made from manuscripts, which there were millions of, so the scholars picked the best ones and scrapped the bible together. my personal thoughts and this IS spirituallity vs. skepticism.

After reading your last response I got a hint of your consfusion. Now I am convinced that you have absolutely NO IDEA what the Scriptures mean, nor did you understand my postings.

When I say THE FATHER, how do you get that I am talking about LOT???

You put alot of blame on THE FATHER, when it is Lot and Lot's daughters that are in the wrong. NOT THE FATHER.

You seem to have a hatred for THE FATHER and you don't even know Him or understand Him. Again I am NOT talking about Lot. Lot is responsible for His own behavior. Do your SOUL a favor and pray before you read the Scriptures. Ask for understanding because you are unaware, and the unaware are unaware that they are what...UNAWARE!

Thus the end of this conversation. May the Father belss you and keep you and open your mind to His TRUTH & Understanding.

now what proof is there? why do u believe? were u forced to go to church in your younger days and brainwashed (my word for it) into thinking he exists? just please question it. . . i dont know why so many people believe in him i need some answers