...sacried and through her is one way to find a path to the Divine.

I don't see why it couldn't be really. Many people feel that nature is very spiritual. Do you care to elaborate more on the subject?

I don't know about sacred but It certainly is a wonderous thing.

Perhaps if you were to give a more indepth explanation it would be easier to explain...

I am a Druid and I use nature as a major part of my of my worship and study of my faith. Like Christians use the Bible. To me life and natural systems are sacred and part of Divine forces.

I've learned more watching ants march along dirt, hawks soar, and birds sing than any sutra could teach.

and just like any time spent in africa will teach you "don't mess with the ants", western man needs to relearn to respect nature.

We've tried to seperate ourselves from nature to much and forgotten that we are apart of it.

To stop with the mystical chatter...

If we destroy nature, we will destroy ourselves.

If we live with nature, we will survive to answer such questions like this.

didn't need ants, a drive through NOLA's 9th ward was a good reminder.

If western man ever had respect for nature, I am broken hearted over the treatment of our planet and the creatures that walk this earth....man in his ignorance has managed to cut off his own toes to spite is foot and is too busy being righteous to notice that he is the source of his problems.....Look at what man has done to his own nature he has turned it into a freak side show...

SC, REv, Dark, AR and Hyper its nice to see people care ......

I find nature to be sacred as well. Have you ever read Awakening to the Zero Point by Gregg Braden? It touches on this topic how we are connected to our earth.

Empress welcome to Um and it sounds like a very interesting read...

Nature is amazing. It is what it is. We don't know a lot about nature yet. That's my opinion. There's no real divinity about it, just amazing beauty.

Thanks Supra

Well said SC ..

Nature is Awesome, I'm thankful that I live in an area where I can appreciate and respect nature ... it is so breathtaking. I often go into the mountains, couple places, where I can just sit, meditate and reflect. Being surrounded by the vastness of the mountains really puts things into perspective, on how small I am compared to nature.

I lived in a city for all my life and I remember the first time I went to the country...it wasn't the forest or wildlife that I was amazed by. It was the stars and the calmness to everything. I also was amazed when I saw a non polluted ocean for the first time.

I still prefer the city though, to me skyscrapers and human architecture are just as beutifull as nature...and it is not as completely boring as the country.

If man can build temples to the unseen, it's amazing that recognizing nature, our Earthly environment, as a temple of it's own and as such, sacred, is the purest form of spirituality there is. Honoring one's self in the grand scheme that co-creates our reality, is enough rites and rituals to keep one's attention for a lifetime.

And I agree about the ants. The purest form of communism, is what I observed of army ants. Incredible beings, far more evolved in many ways, than man. Some might say.

Ants, wow I am always amazed how fire ants can sneak on you by the dozens then suddenly bite all at once as if one of them shouted BITE! Mighty warriors fire ants.

I'm not sure I would say I see Divinity in nature, but I do certainly respect it, and cry at all the wrongs that our species has done to harm our environment. I see nature not as a spiritual force, but as a beautiful and ever-present sign of the spiritual creator. Nature deserves our respect, certainly, but I personally would not worship it as divine.

I don't think the 'two' are separate really. Everything is connected and of nature, and nothing happens that cannot happen. IMO, the Divine does not exist outside of ourselves... that might sound contradictory to my first two sentences, but I see 'the Divine' as an understanding within ourselves of the nature of things. So, I say there are many paths to this understanding, whether one is better than the other is really up to the perceiver. All things are 'natural', even the computers we use, something cannot be made from nothing that does not already exist... naturally. The very essence of nature is the formation of systems within systems, it never stops, ever. If you stop and try think of the origin of elements, its pretty deep and mind-boggling.. and it is understandable why many believe in religious ideas, because they give a more direct answer to the nature of things. It all comes down to personal understanding and what works for you, sure this might conflict with another's understanding, but that is also the nature of things. I think its great Darkwind that you have found your understanding, something you feel that leads you to become a better person.

One part of me loves nature, another part of me feels it has a dark side and wants us dead.
Like if you stand in the sahara desert for two days- it's beautiful but without getting water.. deadly.

I think the universe and not just nature alone is a path and a shining light towards God. Sure nature and the Earth + its works are wonderful but scope out and think about the entire universe around us. The freakin Earth is spinning around right now. Can you believe it?

I would include the Universe as nature.

Beautiful place, the Sahara. I think elements like that are wisdom in their own. Showing man there are some places they're not meant to be. Humbling ego by reminding a body that is 3/4 water, what true dominion of the Earth feels like, as that man that imagines the world is his willful domain, dehydrates and becomes smaller, in that big picture of sands and sun.

Humbling when one shrivels up and joins the tumble weeds, bounding across some desert. Talk about first hand experience of that old saying: nothing ever dies, it just changes form.

I dont think we understand enough about the universe to give it a definitive title like "nature". The galaxies- stars- planets- we know little detail about its complexity and vastness we couldnt even think about giving it a title like "nature". We've come to know and understand nature through direct research for thousands of years. The universe on the other hand...Well we've barely scratched the surface.

The Universe is not artifical no body built it like a building. It is a natural system. Stars and planets are born and die like all things in nature with no help form man.

There's a quote by a Native American elder that I love to bits. I don't know it ver batem but it goes something like this: "The Christians hold the bible to be sacred. If you were to set the Bible out in the wind and the rain, eventually, the Bible's pages would disintergrate. Our Bible is the rain an the wind."

My new favorite quote!

Powerful truth in those words: Here's the source) "If you take [a copy of] the Christian Bible and put it out in the wind and the rain, soon the paper on which the words are printed will disintegrate and the words will be gone. Our bible IS the wind and the rain." Herbalist Carol McGrath as told to her by a Native-American woman.

Beautiful post Arty...i love your definition of divine too...All of life is interconnected and supports each other , when one part is affected we are all affected, now adays alot of attention and focus is put on teaching our kids that we are all one, We are guests on this earth and I want to see movement towards a humanity with a resepct that so few now understand.......Whether its through the pagans worhsip of nature to the many vegans/vegetarians that are sprouting up ( no pun intended) commitment to using their life, to the christains heartfelt appreciation. we can all do something ...as a way to be the diffeernce through just the simple beautiful ways we can take time to appreciatate and care for this living system that supports us and pass this on to our kids....

Also moving at around half a million miles per hour through space.



And I don't think we've come to know enough about the universe to give it invisible creators called gods. It seems that throughout history we've begun explaining less and and less of nature by God. First it was the weather and the sun, later the extreme weather, what now? The universe. It seems that we always have to have an answer, we can never be satisfied with not knowing.

If you think about...technically everything is nature in one way or another.

That's very true. I think those who claim that earth is evidence of a divine creator need to realize that. Everything we have is just assembled nature. But it's assembled to serve a purpose. Nature is random, I believe we adapted to nature, not nature adapted to us. For example, there are plenty of places in this world that simply will not support human life on their own. A world made for the purpose of supporting human life would probably be without deserts, without desolate ice fields, dangerous and barren landscapes, etc. Look at the computers we're using for example. Everything is intricate, and everything is mae with a specific purpose in mind.. to deliver us the GUI and experience of the computer. You have a power supply, a video card, CD and/or floppy drives, a processor, etc.. and a motherboard to connect it all. Nothing in a computer is there without a purpose. Nature is different, it is far more vast and diverse than something made as a habitat for human life.

I'm not too sure of that...I don't thin most of the F keys do anything lol.

The difference between Computers and nature is that computers have a specific purpose...where nature doesn't.

Tree's help to create the oxygen we breathe. Water helps to make the atmosphere that sustains our and all, species. The Ozone layer, etc... keep us protected from the radioactive affects of the sun, which is in itself the great nuclear reactor of the solar system. The human body rebuilds itself, in every part, even the brain, so says cerebral sciences today, all our lives. Nature serves a purpose, even it it's to succumb to our arrogance at destroying our sustainable environment. Or, maybe that destruction is because people actually believe nature doesn't serve a purpose, and thus is not worthy of respect for that, in relative comparison to our thinking we do.

very true-- my opinions aren't important to me- they change and fall like rains drops from the sky.

Eww another transformation visual. May I sometimes call you, "Dewey"?!

No not really. I never enjoyed going outside at all.

Yes, that's all correct. Nature does serve a purpose, but with my computer analogy, I should've said.. Computers serve a purpose crafted completely for humans. Nature's purpose is not crafted specifically for humans. There are so many places in nature where humans simply cannot exist. (Don't forget, nature extends to space.. space is still the natural universe as far as we know).

Oh, I didn't. You'll notice the reference to the solar system, in my statement, that should clear up any misconceptions.

He seems cool

dewey

Well, I guess any Dewey will dew. I was playing on your saying you were like rain drops from the sky. "Dew". Get it!?

Yeah, how much time do you spend in nature, by the way? I seem to find it interesting that many people who revere nature spend much of their time dwelling in house and apartments in sub/urban environments.

KGS

nice connetion though, I found out about John Dewey.

Pretty much where I'm at the moment- and accidently relevant to the thread.
John Dewey taken from the link-

Drawn from an idealist background by the pragmatist influence of Peirce and James, Dewey became an outstanding exponent of philosophical naturalism. Human thought is understood as practical problem-solving, which proceeds by testing rival hypotheses against experience in order to achieve the "warranted assertability" that grounds coherent action. The tentative character of scientific inquiry makes Dewey's epistemology thoroughly fallibilistic: he granted that the results of this process are always open to criticism and revision, so that nothing is ever finally and absolutely true.


ps I liked your nihilism thread.

Well I ment it doesn't serve a single purpose...like the sole purpose of a computer is to serve our needs. Where nature doesn't exist just for us, Nature doesn't exist for the sole purpose of providing life.

Which "Native American elder" was this? The problem with such an assertion is twofold. First, the Christian faith was often transmitted orally; in many instances there were times when Christians were persecuted and were denied the use of the Bible and other Christian writings, yet their faith remained steadfast. Among true believers, faith in and a love for God can't and won't "disintergrate" [sic] regardless of persecution. Second, this does not appear to be the case with many Native American "religions" which have now by and large become extinct, or are subject to much improvisation, among other things.

KGS